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Admin
12-31-99, 22:00
Thread Starter

Orlandoirish
01-02-06, 01:09
Mongers:

I'm researching which areas are the best to buy houses in BsAs 'burbs. Anyone have any incite? So far, reasonable areas are:

Lomas de San Isidro.

San Rafael.

Martínez.

OtownIrish

Guiller
01-02-06, 12:25
Mongers:

I'm researching which areas are the best to buy houses in BsAs 'burbs. Anyone have any incite? So far, reasonable areas are:

Lomas de San Isidro.

San Rafael.

Martínez.

OtownIrishHi Orlandoirish:

San Isidro and Martinez are in the northern Buenos Aires area and are good areas to buy property, but not really for investing (I. E. For buying and selling in a mid -term period) since prices are among the highest in the local market. If you scope is to use the properties for recurring visitis to BA, live there, or rent the places, it is then a good investment. But unless I misunderstood you, San Rafael is a town in the western province of Mendoza (which has winery activities, among others like tourism, mainly because there is nice canyon nearby - Athuel's Canyon) Did you mean this town?

Cheers!

Hunt99
01-02-06, 12:32
Keep in mind that the economic geography of Argentina isn't the same as America. The best homes and neighborhoods aren't always in the suburbs; in fact, some of the poorest areas of Buenos Aires are in the far suburbs. That said, I do think San Isidro is a nice area with plenty of very attractive single-family houses. However, some areas of Palermo and Belgrano are just as nice, IMO.

Exon123
01-02-06, 16:44
Argentina's real estate is an all "CASH" market, there are "NO Term's" such as 30 year morgage's, bank Re-Finances or Home Owner Equity Loans.

I believe the major reason for this is the 12% inflation rate admitted by the government, which in fact is more like 20 to 25 percent Inflation in real life.

Since the above is True there is "No Liquidity" in Argentina's Real Estate, You can "Buy" but you can't "Sell". Once you own the property you can't "Sell" it so theres no way out. Your stuck with your investment pretty much forever, since the Seller needs Cash at Closing to protect Himself against the 20 to 25 percent inflation mentioned above.

Using a $100,000 cash as an example, (about what you'd expect to pay for decent place in or near Capital Federal) You'd be much better off using it as a down payment on a rental property here in the USA. Servicing the excess debt with the rental income and renting in Argentina. Sure you might have some debt you've leveraged, maybe even some negitive cash flow, but you've got "liquidity". You can get out of the deal, something that down the road will be priceless. You can't do that in Argentina, its all cash and in US Dollars to boot.

I recently spent a few nights in Jacksons apartment. As I was moving out a prominate Argentine was moving in. It turned out he was born in Recoleta a few blocks from Jackson's place and now is an investment banker in New York City. He works his trade only in Mexico & Europe, not in Argentina, he doesn't trust his country men. He went on to tell me that all his wealthy Argentine friends had indeed bought property at rock bottom prices after the devaluation and were now selling it as fast as they could. He went on to say that he had a friend whom is a director of "UBS" in New York (Union Bank of Switzerland) a very large international bank, And that they had very large loans in certain sectors of the Argentine economy. Jackson's new tenant went on to say that he asked his important banker friend where all the money was going. The banker told him their big clients were moving money out of Argentina just as fast as they could to Miami, New York, the Caymans, Switzerland and Europe, any place but Argentina. They didn't want to hold peso's, only Dollars or Euro's.

Now all of the above has got to tell you something. When you read the papers down there all you hear about in is strife and unrest coupled with strikes, protesters, inflation, corruption and a crooked government made up of "Home Boy's" that you could never trust.

Heed Exon's advice, Exon does this type of thing for a living and Exon is damn good at it. Matter of Fact all of Exon's mongering money comes from just this type of thinking.

Exon

Moore
01-02-06, 19:19
As Hunt99 says, in BA (and other cities like Cordoba, Rosario, & MarDelPlata) you generally want to be closer to the center, and also on the correct side of it. Palermo and Belgrano are great options (north of center, well within capital yet far enough from Microcentro to have a more relaxed feel) If you're looking closer to the center, you definitely want to be north of Cordoba Av.

Check out Saint's extensive posts about the real estate market and his business. I know of another local company, tierraestates.com, which is run by a British guy and also mainly geared towards foreigners buying (and selling) property in Argentina.

As Exon says, the liquidity level here is nowhere near that of the USA, but its not illiquid either. "Flipping" new properties under construction has become quite popular around Recoleta. People put about 30% down on say a US$150k apt and then sell it a few months later (still under construction) for 160k, making a quick 20% return. Part of the liquidity problem is that the vast majority of Argentines have essentially zero net worth.

There is a new building on Ayacucho very close to my apt which is just being finished. I went in there about 6 months ago when it was just being started to have a look and there were already only 2 units (out of about 20) available. Every buyer had to put down about us50k (around 30%) to secure a unit. Thats just one example, but there is cash out there if you're selling something desireable.

I would not buy property or anything else as an investment in Argentina. However, if I decide to remain here forever then I will buy an apt as my permanent home. You can buy a good 90m2 place in Recoleta for about US140k and completely renovate it for under US10k. I think thats a pretty good deal. Rents are going up like everything else, although I expect the peso fx rate to shoot into the stratosphere not later than next year. Inflation at 1000% and the fx rate quoted in inches of 100peso bills per dollar. Thats when it gets really fun.

And when there is blood in the streets, thats when the ballsy people load up on local assets, like some people did here in early 2002 and others did on Wall Street in late 1929. I'll wait for the dust to settle just a little while.

Exon, I'd like to know what US markets you recommend. I was considering doing what you recommended - buying a place and renting it out. But from what I see and read, the US prices are so incredibly inflated that you generally can't cover costs and the mortgage with the rental income.

Exon123
01-02-06, 20:04
"Exon Id like to know what US markets you recommend. I was considering doing what you recommended - buying a place and renting it out. But from what I see and read, the US prices are so incredibly inflated that you generally can't cover costs and the mortgage with the rental income"

Look real hard at the "Sun Belts" away from the water. The beachs are to inflated, expensive!

My choice would be New Mexico, buy in the path of progress and wait for the "Baby Boomers" to retire and come to you, And they will.

On my last trip, six weeks, I had some interesting experience's in renting an apartment. I ended up renting from Roxana simply because she's my friend and I wanted her to have my money rather than some "Porteno".

But what I found out was theres property all over Buenos Aires for RENT, and more coming on line everyday. In case no one has noticed theres a building boom in Buenos Aires & the whole town is under construction. Which means there more product than customers. Much like "pussy" down there. To prove my point go to some of the rental website's and look at there inventory, there are hundreds of them.

Example: I had a friend whom joined me down there. He rented a beautiful one bedroom in Recoleta on Junical he picked out months in advance which was empty waiting for him. The rent was $200 per week, $600 per month. On a long term lease it would be less then that.

Moreover, the best way would be to find a place you like. Then cut a rent deal with the owner on a long term basis. Much like Jackson has done in Recolrta, with an option to renew the lease.

Heres an interesting question.

How many people do you Mongers know with a $100,000 US Dollars they have liquid and could just plop it down on property in Argentina without selling anything or changeing there standard of living?

My guess NONE.

I hang with some "Big Players" and even they would be hard pressed to do that. Their money is always working, so should yours be. They would be foolish to liquidate assets, good preforming assets, to buy property in Argentina and take such a risk.

As I said I do this sort of thing for a living and if I Fuck Up I'll end up working at 7-11 which means no more pussy in Argentina for Exon. Something I just could not live with.

Exon

Hunt99
01-02-06, 21:50
if I Fuck Up I'll end up working at 7-11 which means no more pussy in Argentina for Exon. Exon, fetch me a large Cherry Slurpee. Chop chop! And also two Big Bite hot dogs, while you're at it.

Fred88
01-02-06, 22:30
Actually, of course, if Exon ever had to work at a 7-11, in about six months he'd have the franchise and be buying another one down the road. Then. Well, then, back to BsAs!

Peter / Fred88

Guiller
01-03-06, 12:38
I agree with the comment of Exon: it could take a long time to sell property. The reason is that, although the banks have plenty of money for mortage loans, most people who have a job cannot qualify for applying. One should bear in mind that the real income of this large portion of the society (which involves most of the middle class) was drastically reduced after the devaluation of 2001. So, being the middle class out of the market, the only potential buyers are either local or foreing investors, and this fact drastically reduces the possibility of selling a property in a short time. If one waits long enough and the property is worthvalued, eventually one could sell it, but on the other hand, investors have many choices, do not have practical pressures (like the need to have a place to move in) and would try to reduce the selling price to a real minimum.

Cheers

Orlandoirish
01-03-06, 18:55
Mongers:

Thanks for all the feedback, think I will keep my 10,000 share of Google IN the market and rent in BsAs! It's not worth the risk. Although tempting.

Cheers!

Exon123
01-03-06, 20:20
Good idea Orlandoish.

Hmmm lets see, at today's close your Google shares would be somewhere north of $400,000 dollars. I suggest you sell them at the market tomorrow morning a buy a little condo or something in New Mexico, fuck today's up grade.

Rent the condo and have your leasing agent put the proceeds in your checking account here in the USA. Then using your ATM card slowly withdraw the money and spend it on "Pussy" in Buenos Aires, the rest you can just waste.

Thats what I do.

Exon

Quester3
01-03-06, 21:22
One more zero there Exon.

Not $400k - it would be $4.35 million.

10k Google shares at today's close would be 4,352,300.

Even at the most conservative capital protection income account with zero risk, say a large multi-CD or multi-linked BofA investment services money market accounts, he'd earn 3.2% as of today. Or a yearly income in just interest at around $139k.

After taxes assuming the most incompetent tax account that saves you nothing and you get screwed the max tax rate, that leaves a monthly interest income of $7076 take home pay to live off. Only been here in BA a few days, but $7 grand a month seems pretty easily livable down here.

Drop the FDIC insurance and go with a tiny bit of risk like an E-trade money market account and that little 4.1% interest rate difference is an extra $38k - or basically about $9k monthly interest income.

Moore
01-03-06, 21:59
3% gross interest is closer to 2% after taxes. Now take out inflation and you're losing money and your real principal is shrinking. Unless you're very old and only have say 10-15 yrs of life and expenses left, you need to be in equities and earn a historical longterm rate of 10.5% After taxes and inflation that gives you an income of about 5%. Thats about $200k per year net (and not allowing your purchasing power to shrink) or $17k / mo on which you can live fairly well in Argentina.

Hunt99
01-03-06, 22:24
Yes, this is all fine and well, but what am I to do with my 10,000 shares of Berkshire Hathaway?

Moore
01-03-06, 22:32
I don't know, are you talking class A or B shares of BRK? Warren would probably hold 'em!

Exon123
01-03-06, 23:26
You stay put with the Berkshire, Hunt 99 but lets sell the Google and we'll buy that Denny's in Cleveland that Moore was trying to compete with El Alamo we were all talking about sometime ago. Thata be a winner.

Or possibly one mite be interested in my Calpine Junk bonds.

Exon

Orlandoirish
01-03-06, 23:53
Gents:

Nice to know you boyz can do the math. LMAO. BTW, its not too difficult to get 10K shares WHEN YOU WORK FOR GOOGLE AS IT DIRECTOR OF THEIR ORACLE APPLICATIONS SUITE.

LMAO.

Quester3
01-04-06, 00:33
No sarcasm from me. In this day and age, single digit millions really isn't that much.

Moore- unless O is utterly foolish which I don't imagine he is, nobody is going to keep their entire net worth in one single stock, so I'd assumed 3% was plenty as the income generator from parking that cash into a money market to fund his income needs, and capital growth even on top of inflation would come from what are presumably his diversified assets.

If there are no diversified assets and just stock options from Google, then that's a whole different ball game.

Orlandoirish
01-04-06, 01:45
Stop trying to become a manager at wal*mart and get real gents. Sorry I mentioned Google. OK, I am a migrant worker from Costa Rica on outdated green card, of which I plant roses at a nursery in Apopka FL, for 1.25 USD / hour. There, you brot the truth out of me.

Goblin
01-04-06, 06:08
Argentina's real estate is an all "CASH" market, there are "NO Term's" such as 30 year morgage's, bank Re-Finances or Home Owner Equity Loans.

I believe the major reason for this is the 12% inflation rate admitted by the government, which in fact is more like 20 to 25 percent Inflation in real life.

Since the above is True there is "No Liquidity" in Argentina's Real Estate, You can "Buy" but you can't "Sell". Once you own the property you can't "Sell" it so theres no way out. Your stuck with your investment pretty much forever, since the Seller needs Cash at Closing to protect Himself against the 20 to 25 percent inflation mentioned above.

Using a $100,000 cash as an example, (about what you'd expect to pay for decent place in or near Capital Federal) You'd be much better off using it as a down payment on a rental property here in the USA. Servicing the excess debt with the rental income and renting in Argentina. Sure you might have some debt you've leveraged, maybe even some negitive cash flow, but you've got "liquidity". You can get out of the deal, something that down the road will be priceless. You can't do that in Argentina, its all cash and in US Dollars to boot.

I recently spent a few nights in Jacksons apartment. As I was moving out a prominate Argentine was moving in. It turned out he was born in Recoleta a few blocks from Jackson's place and now is an investment banker in New York City. He works his trade only in Mexico & Europe, not in Argentina, he doesn't trust his country men. He went on to tell me that all his wealthy Argentine friends had indeed bought property at rock bottom prices after the devaluation and were now selling it as fast as they could. He went on to say that he had a friend whom is a director of "UBS" in New York (Union Bank of Switzerland) a very large international bank, And that they had very large loans in certain sectors of the Argentine economy. Jackson's new tenant went on to say that he asked his important banker friend where all the money was going. The banker told him their big clients were moving money out of Argentina just as fast as they could to Miami, New York, the Caymans, Switzerland and Europe, any place but Argentina. They didn't want to hold peso's, only Dollars or Euro's.

Now all of the above has got to tell you something. When you read the papers down there all you hear about in is strife and unrest coupled with strikes, protesters, inflation, corruption and a crooked government made up of "Home Boy's" that you could never trust.

Heed Exon's advice, Exon does this type of thing for a living and Exon is damn good at it. Matter of Fact all of Exon's mongering money comes from just this type of thinking.

ExonWith that rate of inflation you would assume a steady and constant drop of the Peso against the US dollar. Why is it taking so long to catch up to reality?

This country seems to be in a constant and very dramatic state of flux. What by the way is Jackson paying for that beautiful apartment of his? Are opportunities like that still available in BA?

What about the hotel business, I could barely find a room in BA during the off season must be brutal right now. Now there have to be opportunities in the hotel sector.

Goblin

Exon123
01-04-06, 15:47
The Dollar is being supported at an artifically low price by the Argentine government in order to induce foreign trade and tourism by their centeral bank. This brings in "Hard" money which the Argentine government desperately needs to fianace the debt service on the remaining National debt.

As we all know they defualted on their national debt, when "Fucked" their bond holders out of 75% of their investments. Which in turn has ruined the country economicaly and turned the middle class into poverty.

The Argentine government must show a positive cash flow or balance of payments in order apease the IMF whom in fact holds the purse strings for the whole country. They due this by "Fucking" their population out of the true value of their goods and sevice's. Sorta like saying to the people "We Fucked Up" so everyone in the country has to work for less money than what the true value of what their "Work Product" would sell for on the world market.

This of course is the reason "We" all can afford to travel their. A $500 dollar "hooker" in New York, Chicago or Los Angeles can be had for $200 peso's, ($67 dollars) in Buenos Aires, cheaper in other cities.

Has anyone ever noticed that when you exchange money at the "Cambio" store on Friday's you get 3 to 5 peso's less than you would on Monday morning. The reason is no one wants to take a chance on the peso over the weekend, you pay a risk premuim over the weekend.

Or has anyone ever landed at a major United States port of entry with a few extra peso's? Then gone to the currency exchange window and tried to cash them in, or for that matter tried to buy peso's before leaving? Won't happen, they've got 20 or 30 different countries listed but no Argentina Peso listed. Even in Miami the major airport for South America no Argentine peso. They don't want to handle the peso and there must be a reason.

Finnally, recently you've noticed a small up tick in the exchange rate in Buenos Aires. We were getting about $2.85 to the dollar about six months ago. Now the rate is about $3.00 to the dollar. Thats the Argentine Centeral Bank "Tweeking" the Dollar against the Peso. What its telling you is that, " What Were Doing Is Not Working, So We'll Drop The Peso Even More".

Look for More Inflation in Argentine and Cheaper Peso's.

Exon

Hi Exon,

Effective yesterday, Argentina paid off all their IMF dept, and thus the IMF no longe has any infulence over the Argentine government, their banking practices, their monetary policy, etc.

For example, the are now free to pring all the Pesos they want. The provinces are also free to begin printing their own currency like the did immediately after the devaluation of 2001.

The international banking community justifiably sees all this as a bad thing, and the reaction is the recent davaluation of the peso.

Thanks,

Jackson

Rudolph
01-04-06, 17:25
The Dollar is being supported at an artifically low price by the Argentine government in order to induce foreign trade and tourism by their centeral bank. This brings in "Hard" money which the Argentine government desperately needs to fianace the debt service on the remaining National debt.

As we all know they defualted on their national debt, when "Fucked" their bond holders out of 75% of their investments. Which in turn has ruined the country economicaly and turned the middle class into poverty.

The Argentine government must show a positive cash flow or balance of payments in order apease the IMF whom in fact holds the purse strings for the whole country. They due this by "Fucking" their population out of the true value of their goods and sevice's. Sorta like saying to the people "We Fucked Up" so everyone in the country has to work for less money than what the true value of what their "Work Product" would sell for on the world market.

This of course is the reason "We" all can afford to travel their. A $500 dollar "hooker" in New York, Chicago or Los Angeles can be had for $200 peso's, ($67 dollars) in Buenos Aires, cheaper in other cities.

Has anyone ever noticed that when you exchange money at the "Cambio" store on Friday's you get 3 to 5 peso's less than you would on Monday morning. The reason is no one wants to take a chance on the peso over the weekend, you pay a risk premuim over the weekend.

Or has anyone ever landed at a major United States port of entry with a few extra peso's? Then gone to the currency exchange window and tried to cash them in, or for that matter tried to buy peso's before leaving? Won't happen, they've got 20 or 30 different countries listed but no Argentina Peso listed. Even in Miami the major airport for South America no Argentine peso. They don't want to handle the peso and there must be a reason.

Finnally, recently you've noticed a small up tick in the exchange rate in Buenos Aires. We were getting about $2.85 to the dollar about six months ago. Now the rate is about $3.00 to the dollar. Thats the Argentine Centeral Bank "Tweeking" the Dollar against the Peso. What its telling you is that, " What Were Doing Is Not Working, So We'll Drop The Peso Even More".

Look for More Inflation in Argentine and Cheaper Peso's.

ExonGot the same scam going on in the US just on a different scale. Say how does the income tax system work there? What is the rate of taxation?

Hunt99
01-04-06, 18:14
I don't know, are you talking class A or be shares of BRK? Warren would probably hold 'em!B shares? What are B shares? Something for the hoi polloi, no doubt.

Speaking of Wal-Mart, I own a boat-load of that, too. World's best retailer, stock has done nothing for 6 years while the earnings have tripled and the dividend doubled (or is it the other way round?). Coiled spring effect.

Flexible Horn
01-04-06, 18:54
It's reported in the Buenos Aires Herald today that Argentina paid the IMF us$9.5 billion cancelling its entire dept.

Things must be improving.

Guiller
01-05-06, 00:07
It's reported in the Buenos Aires Herald today that Argentina paid the IMF us$9.5 billion cancelling its entire dept.

Things must be improving.Unlike the previous debt cancellations of Russia and Brazil, this has been mainly a political measure, with almost no economic reasons: the message is: "Stop telling us what to do. Now you can't do that any longer. Leave us alone to decide what to do". All the major local newspapers reflect this viewpoint.

All the best

Saint
01-07-06, 13:02
Nothing for nothing Exon but you had the exact same arguments over a year ago when I started buying real estate here. You were saying how it was not a good investment then really using the same arguments as you are using now. I think it's clear you were proven wrong by the levels of property prices since I started buying. You need to understand the underlying investment principles here in Argentina. You say you do this for a living so I would assume you would see it more clearly than the average Joe. The fact remains that the banking system here is simply not trusted. It's also harder to get money out of the country for the average local because since 9/11 American banks make it more difficult to open accounts from abroad. Real estate has always been the safest form of investment in Argentina. They don't put their money in the banks. They put it in real estate.

It's a very stable play. Take all this cash and what do people do with it? They don't put it in the bank, or buy mututal funds or stocks. They buy properties. Talk to Roxana or any other local. They can tell you what I am posting is correct.

You are also wrong when you say it's not a liquid investment. I would strongly disagree with you. I find a one bedroom apartment in Recoleta very liquid. In fact, I'm one of the largest buyers of residential real estate in Buenos Aires than anyone in the world. It's darn tough to find a good one bedroom apartment for sale in Recoleta. When they come on the market they go off very quickly. All this new construction you are talking about. Much of it is pre-sold before it is even started. Every week I try to buy at least 1 apartment and it's getting tougher and tougher. What you posted simply isn't true. And in fact, it's like cash because when you sell it's also in cash on the table. Also, there are 0% capital gains taxes when you sell.

You are discounting the fact that real estate for this quality of a city compared to other cities around the world is very cheap here. Property taxes are very low. Utilities are very low. Many are buying as investments not only for the capital appreciation but also for the rental income. Tourism here has exploded and will be strong for a long time. Hotels are booked solid. Some are at 95% occupancy and many of the top ones are routinely sold out. More and more airlines are fighting to get routes to Buenos Aires. What do you think this will do to the tourism industry in BA?

Also, different people have different reasons for buying. Many want diversification away from the USA market and stocks/bonds/funds. Asset allocation is always a good idea. Many of my clients are purchasing here with money from other real estate they sold at very high prices in the USA, UK, Australia, and other parts of the world. They bought low and sold high. They see the same potential in Buenos Aires.

Everyone has their opinions. I'm not saying I am right and you are wrong. What I am saying is that you were wrong over a year ago when you were making the same arguments about real estate here and how it was a mistake to buy. Foreigners have accounted for up to 50% of the high-end purchases here in Buenos Aires according to some private estimates. That trend will continue. More and more real estate every week is going into the hands of foreigners. Yes, many are individual players purchasing real estate but many are also very skilled corporations purchasing up big blocks of land and properties/buildings/apartments. Many are very skilled companies where all they do is buy real estate around the world for a living and have been doing this for over a hundred years and have been spot on. These are the kind of trends you might want to keep in mind.

Also, keep in mind there is no real mortgage system here. It's all cash. Unlike in the USA where people can get 5% down mortgages and you have all these people buying on speculation that aren't really risking any investment capital. The system is VERY different here. The real estate prices are REAL because people paid 100% cash for them. No loans, no credit. In the USA, just about anyone, including those with bad credit can buy property. You have these interest only loans and other schemes that have pushed real estate prices up and will eventually create real problems in the future, IMHO. Property prices here were paid with 100% cash so these prices are not some artificially valued real estate like many places around the world. You have to consider things like that.

Property here has always been priced in u$s so get the devaluation out of your head. The reason you had a flood of selling after the devaluation is that banks were closed and people had no funding to their accounts. Imagine if the same thing happened in the USA. There would be blood in the streets! People would be blowing up banks. Here they were banging on pots and pans and were protesting. And oh yeah. Selling their real estate because it's a cash transaction and they needed cash. It was a unique experience that most people will never witness in their lifetime. You had a situation like that along with no one buying and property prices ARTIFICIALLY went down. The rise up is just things settling back to how they left off before the crash. Look at a historical real estate chart for Buenos Aires. Property has only caught up to where it left off. Only in February 2005 did it surpass where prices where before the crash. I have posted and I still believe that property is ripe here for a tremendous upswing over the next decade here.

Also, look at their mortgage situation. Mortgages one day will be common here. I'm not saying it will be overnight. They just started introducing mortgages again here but at high interest rates (10% - 12%) and you have to have 50% equity and the period is only 10 years. Still, look at any other country in the world. When you introduce mortgages, it pushes up demand and demand pushes up prices. Add in to the mix that with the devaluation, it brought many, many, many foreigners here to discover Argentina that never otherwise would have come here. Unsurprisingly they fall in love with the city and decide to purchase real estate here. There is more and more foreign interest and purchases in the real estate market here. I am not talking about just a few bucks. I'm talking about hundreds of millions of dollars.

Argentina has some sort of crises about every ten years. The one safe play throughout the years for these Portenos has been real estate. Something you might want to keep in mind when you simply dismiss real estate here as a stupid investment. Exon- you might manage money for a living and you might be really good at it...but I always think it's fair to tell both sides of the story. I also manage a lot of money for people and I like to look at the big picture in any investment opportunity. Good luck all.

Saint

Goblin
01-07-06, 17:59
Are statistics available on the annual increases in the market value of Real Estate in BA? What kind of annual upswing are we talking about for a typical Ricoleta one bedroom apartment in the $150,000 to $200,000 range?

Goblin.


Nothing for nothing Exon but you had the exact same arguments over a year ago when I started buying real estate here. You were saying how it was not a good investment then really using the same arguments as you are using now. I think it's clear you were proven wrong by the levels of property prices since I started buying. You need to understand the underlying investment principles here in Argentina. You say you do this for a living so I would assume you would see it more clearly than the average Joe. The fact remains that the banking system here is simply not trusted. It's also harder to get money out of the country for the average local because since 9/11 American banks make it more difficult to open accounts from abroad. Real estate has always been the safest form of investment in Argentina. They don't put their money in the banks. They put it in real estate.

It's a very stable play. Take all this cash and what do people do with it? They don't put it in the bank, or buy mututal funds or stocks. They buy properties. Talk to Roxana or any other local. They can tell you what I am posting is correct.

You are also wrong when you say it's not a liquid investment. I would strongly disagree with you. I find a one bedroom apartment in Recoleta very liquid. In fact, I'm one of the largest buyers of residential real estate in Buenos Aires than anyone in the world. It's darn tough to find a good one bedroom apartment for sale in Recoleta. When they come on the market they go off very quickly. All this new construction you are talking about. Much of it is pre-sold before it is even started. Every week I try to buy at least 1 apartment and it's getting tougher and tougher. What you posted simply isn't true. And in fact, it's like cash because when you sell it's also in cash on the table. Also, there are 0% capital gains taxes when you sell.

You are discounting the fact that real estate for this quality of a city compared to other cities around the world is very cheap here. Property taxes are very low. Utilities are very low. Many are buying as investments not only for the capital appreciation but also for the rental income. Tourism here has exploded and will be strong for a long time. Hotels are booked solid. Some are at 95% occupancy and many of the top ones are routinely sold out. More and more airlines are fighting to get routes to Buenos Aires. What do you think this will do to the tourism industry in BA?

Also, different people have different reasons for buying. Many want diversification away from the USA market and stocks / bonds / funds. Asset allocation is always a good idea. Many of my clients are purchasing here with money from other real estate they sold at very high prices in the USA, UK, Australia, and other parts of the world. They bought low and sold high. They see the same potential in Buenos Aires.

Everyone has their opinions. I'm not saying I am right and you are wrong. What I am saying is that you were wrong over a year ago when you were making the same arguments about real estate here and how it was a mistake to buy. Foreigners have accounted for up to 50% of the purchases here in Buenos Aires according to some private estimates. That trend will continue. More and more real estate every week is going into the hands of foreigners. Yes, many are individual players purchasing real estate but many are also very skilled corporations purchasing up big blocks of land and properties / buildings / apartments. Many are very skilled companies that all they do is buy real estate around the world for a living and have been doing this for over a hundred years and have been spot on. These are the kind of trends you might want to keep in mind.

Also, keep in mind there is no real mortgage system here. It's all cash. Unlike in the USA where people can get 5% down mortgages and you have all these people buying on speculation that aren't really risking any investment capital. The system is VERY different here. The real estate prices are real because people paid 100% cash for them. No loans, no credit. You have to consider things like that.

Property here has always been priced in you$s so get the devaluation out of your head. The reason you had a flood of selling after the devaluation is that banks were closed and people had no funding to their accounts. Imagine if the same thing happened in the USA. There would be blood in the streets! People would be blowing up banks. Here they were banging on pots and pans and were protesting. And oh yeah. Selling their real estate because it's a cash transaction and they needed cash. It was a unique experience that most people will never witness in their lifetime. You had a situation like that along with no one buying and property prices ARTIFICIALLY went down. The rise up is just things settling. Property has only caught up to where it left off in February 2005. I have posted and I still believe that property is ripe here for a tremendous upswing over the next decade here.

Also, look at their mortgage situation. Mortgages one day will be common here. I'm not saying it will be overnight. They just started introducing mortgages again here but at high interest rates (10% - 12%) and you have to have 50% equity and the period is only 10 years. Still, look at any other country in the world. When you introduce mortgages, it pushes up demand and demand pushes up prices. Add in to the mix that with the devaluation, it brought many, many, many foreigners here to discover Argentina that never otherwise would have come here. Unsurprisingly they fall in love with the city and decide to purchase real estate here. There is more and more foreign interest and purchases in the real estate market here. I am not talking about just a few bucks. I'm talking about hundreds of millions of dollars.

Argentina has some sort of crises about every ten years. The one safe play throughout the years for these Portenos has been real estate. Something you might want to keep in mind when you simply dismiss real estate here as a stupid investment. Exon- you might manage money for a living and you might be really good at it. But I always think it's fair to tell both sides of the story. I also manage a lot of money for people and I like to look at the big picture in any investment opportunity. Good luck all.

Saint

Exon123
01-07-06, 18:00
Saint with all do respect "We all gota do, What We gota do"

Its "Your" money and or "Your Investers" money, you spend it anyway you want. As with any real estate agent, your in for a piece of the deal when an Invester puts down his money. One way or the other your going to do all right either buying or selling. Plus any rental commission you derive from renting properities you've already sold to Investors. So I'm not at all suprised with your comments about the Argentine real estate market.

I myself own substantual real estate here in the USA. I do so for a hedge against paper assets. I personally built it myself buying the land first then building on it. I have whats called " Vertically Intgraded Profits". That is to say I made a profit buying the land, subdividing the land, building out the lots, building the properties and finally holding and renting the properties. Plus of course substantual appreaciation.

All done in the "Path of Progress", in the South West, knowing full well there 70 million 'Baby Boomers" waiting to retire in warm climate's. And I'll have some "Product" for a few of them someday when I'm ready to sell. The deal is a "No Brainer", Exon doesn't "Gamble" with his money. I'll take "Risk" but I don't gamble. "Risk" being "Time", your going to make money no matter what, its how long is going to take and thats the "ROI" on the time the "Capital" is Employed. Also called the "Opertunity Cost of Capital", What could I've have done with that same amount of Capital? That would have made even more money.

Now here's my Question for you Saint.


There are hundreds of Thousands of US Investers that want "Off Shore" investments and the Idea would have been easy to "Sell to the "Investing Public". Hell, You could have even converted the Deal to "REIT" and taken the "Deal Public" and have it trading on the New York Stock Exchange, making even more Money, BIG MONEY.

With Your Belief in The Argentine Real Estate Market I'm Sure You Could Sell The Deal To A Large New York Investment House Yourself And Remember Thats What Those Guy's Do For A Living, They Put Deals Together, They Don't Care What The Deal Is. Now Your Talked About Making Some Real Money!

Just a Thought.

Exon

Saint
01-07-06, 19:47
Hi Exon,

I've always believed intelligent discussion is healthy and beneficial for everyone. Thanks for keeping the conversation intelligent. I didn't mean any disrespect to you and I'm sure none was taken. As you mentioned, "we all gotta do what we gotta do". I was only pointing out that there are two sides to every situation. As long as people back it up with facts, that's what is important which I think we are both doing.

Kudos for your real estate plays in the Sunbelt in the USA. I am full aware of all of what you are talking about. Also, something that is important to me as an investor is CASH FLOW from the investment. Sure it's nice to have capital appreciation on an investment or real estate but something that is more attractive to me and many other investors is cash flow that pours out from the investment. It sounds like your investments have really worked out for you. I'm very happy when I hear stories like that. I'm not sure how much cash flow they are churning out but let's just say I'm very happy with both the capital appreciation of my investments in BA and also the cash flow. I wish I got involved in real estate a long time ago.

I'm NOT a realtor. I'm a real estate consultant. What you posted about me making money no matter what is NOT true. Investors/companies hire me for my expert advice on the real estate market here, my opinions, help them negotiate the purchase price. I'm not a realtor and do NOT make any commissions from someone buying. I ensure a smooth process and make sure that they are not taken advantage of. For most I have power of attorney to purchase for them. So contrary to what you posted or believe, I do not benefit financially by someone buying or selling. I am paid my entire consulting fee upfront whether they buy or not. I'm paid for my time and expertise. (Of course we do make money in renting out the property should they decide to rent it out but what people like is my business philosophy is simple...I don't make money unless I'm making them money as we make a % of the total rent).

Of course, due to the sheer number of transactions I am doing I AM thinking of opening a real estate company later this year. Not sure if I have time though.

As far as what you mentioned, I'm not sure anyone specifically wants their name or business plans mentioned so I won't comment on them specifically. I will say that I have been approached by several large companies to purchase my company. I have had 3 serious unsolicited offers from USA and UK firms. I'm not talking about pocket change either. I'm talking fairly good sized numbers. The way I figure it is that people are approaching me to buy my company and it's not even for sale. I'm good at what I do so if I really wanted to sell it I could get much higher than what they are offering me. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that some of their plans probably involve plans similar to what you mentioned.

Honestly, I believe there is more to life than money. For the first time I am actually in a business that I am totally passionate about and love. I don't answer to anyone, I own 100% of the company, I'm living in a city I truly love and making more than enough money to live a totally comfortable life (actually I live like a King). I didn't move to Buenos Aires to become rich. So my philosophy is to just live life working hard and in a business I truly love, I have wonderful clients, wonderful employees. I am still fairly young and I'm quite sure I'll be set for life even if I don't sell out now for a small fortune. I've always made money and I'm not worried about making money in the future. Nothing was given to me. Everything that I have in life I did myself by working hard.

Also, keep in mind this is a very new company and the growth rate has been amazing. I believe this is only the beginning and it will become a much more valuable company / business in the near future so there is no need to rush and try to sell now. Honestly, I don't know if I would sell even at any price. Still, I don't rule anything out. The deal making you are talking about don't assume I'm not already part of. I've helped put some fairly good sized deals together. The consulting gig for me has been very good. In fact, I spend most of my time now consulting.

I have several other ideas for other companies that I'm sure would do well and make a lot of money. The only thing I'm limited by now is time. I work a lot of hours a day. When I'm not working I'm with my girlfriend and when I'm not doing that I am traveling around the world. I just got back from a 6 week 6 country trip including traveling around Australia.

We both can go on and on about making money, selling out, etc. In the end, those that have followed my journey all over the world the past several years knows that for me life isn't about dollars and cents. It's about the journey, having fun and enjoying yourself which is what I am doing. Too many people b*tch and moan or complain about aspects of their work, life, relationships but they don't do anything to change it. The past several years has been the most enriching and rewarding of my life.

I wish you and all the other WSG'ers a very happy new year. Take care and stay well.

Saint

P.S. -Those thinking I'm posting trying to get business are just wrong. In fact, I have been turning away some business as I am selective who I want to work with and have refunded consulting fees for people I don't think will be a good match. In fact, I don't work with WSG members so if you contact me better not to tell me it's from WSG or I won't take you on as a client.

Andres
01-07-06, 21:09
Property here has always been priced in USD, so get the devaluation out of your head. The reason you had a flood of selling after the devaluation is that banks were closed and people had no funding to their accounts. Imagine if the same thing happened in the USA. There would be blood in the streets! People would be blowing up banks. Here they were banging on pots and pans and were protesting. And oh yeah. Selling their real estate because it's a cash transaction and they needed cash. It was a unique experience that most people will never witness in their lifetime. You had a situation like that along with no one buying and property prices ARTIFICIALLY went down. The rise up is just things settling back to how they left off before the crash. Look at a historical real estate chart for Buenos Aires. Property has only caught up to where it left off. Only in February 2005 did it surpass where prices where before the crash. I have posted and I still believe that property is ripe here for a tremendous upswing over the next decade here. Your comment applies to high-end property, but not necessarily to all.

I sold my apartment last year and the most I could get was 65% of the 2001 value, since local people cannot afford the real estate prices they used to pay before.

Andres

Saint
01-07-06, 21:21
Andres,

I'm not sure where your property is located or how much you originally paid. I know in some instances the prices are still lower but look at just about every transaction that is going on and relative property prices around the city in areas like Recoleta, Palermo, Barrio Norte (only areas where I buy) prices have gone up.

I still see prices going up. I think you will agree that for the most part in BA, property is priced by the sq. Meter and the price per sq. Meter has steadily gone up since the crash.

Moore
01-07-06, 21:56
Saint,

I read your recent postings and exchanges with Exon. A lot of this is interesting for me since I have no experience in real estate investing. Local property is no doubt the place for Argentines to store any wealth, but I still don't understand why you think that Argentine real estate will be a great longterm investment play for foreigners. The tourism here has increased, you can see that on the street. But I doubt that BA will ever be a true tourist destination and/or derive a significant % of its GDP from tourism. There are 13 million people in metro BA. It's WAY too far from the large markets. All the major foreign destinations like Costa del Sol, Spain, Costa Rica, Cancun have something in common – they're a 2-3 hour flight from the markets they serve. The Managing Director from London makes multiple trips per year to his vacation house in Toledo, Spain, but I don't see the CEO from Chicago coming down to a BA penthouse for Labor Day weekend. And this is great for me since I don't want BA to ever be a major tourist place. I like my remote, isolated BsAs just the way it is.

My understanding is that the underlying economy of a market must improve for property values to rise. I don't see that happening here. As you write, there are so many fundamental problems with the system here and the general level of ethics, efficiency, and ambition ingrained in the culture seems quite low. Now add a political climate in which most of the continent is turning away from free market reforms and probably would have long ago save US intervention. Several countries such as Ireland and Spain were incredible success stories of the past generation. Much of their success was attributable to systematic reform and their strategically positioning themselves as attractive investment locations for foreign corporations. Again, I don't see this happening in Argentina!

When you write "I think you will find Buenos Aires a decade from now a much different Buenos Aires that you had since the devaluation.", what differences do you see?

Starfe
01-07-06, 22:07
" WERE NOT WORTHY " can sometimes be a VERY good thing.

Starfe

Andres
01-08-06, 00:54
Andres,

I'm not sure where your property is located or how much you originally paid. I know in some instances the prices are still lower but look at just about every transaction that is going on and relative property prices around the city in areas like Recoleta, Palermo, Barrio Norte (only areas where I buy) Prices have gone up.

I still see prices going up. I think you will agree that for the most part in BA, property is priced by the sq. Meter and the price per sq. Meter has steadily gone up since the crash.My property was in a quarter other than the ones you mentioned.

I agree that prices will go up in most neighborhoods, specially in upscale neighborhoods such as Recoleta, which reached saturation in terms of available lots for new construction. That's certainly not the case for properties south of Rivadavia Ave.

Andres

Easy Go
01-08-06, 02:36
I've always found real estate to be tricky business to predict even in the US where the markets are transparent and competitive. The use of the MLS to control commissions is the only serious efficient market obstacle that I see and that's getting some Justice Department attention (I assume triggered by insufficient campaign contributions)

Making serious money by investing in real estate seems to be fairly simple.

1. Live somewhere prices happen to go crazy and have the option to move to a less expensive area (or be happy with just leaving a big estate)

2. Buy low, sell high, and don't make stupid mistakes.

Reminds me of Las Vegas where almost everyone that makes money thinks it was because they are smart while almost everyone that loses money thinks it was because they are unlucky. In my experience, thinking you are smart and thinking you are unlucky are usually two sides of the same coin.

Saint took a big risk and is making lots of money. Good for him. He says he's a really smart guy so I'm sure he realizes that luck is a big part of his success and is prepared if his luck happens to change (like another economic crisis that causes investors and tourists to shun BA for an extended stretch) Survival, like luck, favors the well prepared.

I think there are lots of red flags related to investing in property in BA but you can make a lot of money on a quick flip in a hot market (especially using OPM to manage the risk) Saint is taking advantage of a market inefficiency by becoming a trustworthy advisor to foreigners that think BA is a good place to invest and says he is doing quite well at it. If you don't think he is trustworthy, don't want to invest in BA real estate, or are not interested in renting a premium apartment at a premium price, don't do business with him. But bitching about it here is, like bitching about guys paying $US600 for a chica at Black, is a waste of time and bandwidth.

I've considered renting from apartmentsba on trips as the places look nice but generally end up either renting something 50% less expensive (think Marriott vs Four Seasons) or renting from Roxana or Jackson where I can keep the money "in the family".

Think of Saint as the Donald Trump of Buenos Aires. He may have a giant ego and be a horse's ass but at least he's entertaining. That's more than can be said for most of us.

Goblin
01-08-06, 04:27
One of my biggest investment concerns would be the lack of financing options and limited positive leverage which would have the effect of limiting your cash on cash return.

At present rates in the USA you can easily leaverage $250,000.00 into a $1M+ commercial real estate investment with a c / c yield of over 20% on an NOI of only 11%.

To match that in BA you would have to buy cheap and rent high at minimal operating costs.

The only possibility for a substantive escalation in Real Estate values would be through the introduction of proper financing options and I can't see that happening without support from the international banking community and the IMF.

Goblin.


I've always found real estate to be tricky business to predict even in the US where the markets are transparent and competitive. The use of the MLS to control commissions is the only serious efficient market obstacle that I see and that's getting some Justice Department attention (I assume triggered by insufficient campaign contributions)

Making serious money by investing in real estate seems to be fairly simple.

1. Live somewhere prices happen to go crazy and have the option to move to a less expensive area (or be happy with just leaving a big estate)

2. Buy low, sell high, and don't make stupid mistakes.

Reminds me of Las Vegas where almost everyone that makes money thinks it was because they are smart while almost everyone that loses money thinks it was because they are unlucky. In my experience, thinking you are smart and thinking you are unlucky are usually two sides of the same coin.

Saint took a big risk and is making lots of money. Good for him. He says he's a really smart guy so I'm sure he realizes that luck is a big part of his success and is prepared if his luck happens to change (like another economic crisis that causes investors and tourists to shun BA for an extended stretch) Survival, like luck, favors the well prepared.

I think there are lots of red flags related to investing in property in BA but you can make a lot of money on a quick flip in a hot market (especially using OPM to manage the risk) Saint is taking advantage of a market inefficiency by becoming a trustworthy advisor to foreigners that think BA is a good place to invest and says he is doing quite well at it. If you don't think he is trustworthy, don't want to invest in BA real estate, or are not interested in renting a premium apartment at a premium price, don't do business with him. But bitching about it here is, like bitching about guys paying $US600 for a chica at Black, is a waste of time and bandwidth.

I've considered renting from apartmentsba on trips as the places look nice but generally end up either renting something 50% less expensive (think Marriott vs Four Seasons) or renting from Roxana or Jackson where I can keep the money "in the family".

Think of Saint as the Donald Trump of Buenos Aires. He may have a giant ego and be a horse's ass but at least he's entertaining. That's more than can be said for most of us.

Exon123
01-08-06, 17:44
Your comment applies to high-end property, but not necessarily to all.

I sold my apartment last year and the most I could get was 65% of the 2001 value, since local people cannot afford the real estate prices they used to pay before.

AndresMy friend Andres pretty much sum's it up with the above quote replying to "Saint" below.

Now lets look at the facts.

Andres is an Argentine, he was born in Argentina, Love's his Country, is Very Highly Educated, Yet he can't fined a decient job in Argentina and is forced to work in another Country. That tells you something right there, If Argentina has to ship their 'Best" and their "Brightess" off shore to find work there's something basicaly flawed in their economy.

If any of us is qualified to speak on this subject it would be Andres. He knows the culture, the people and how they think. (In case some of you newbies haven't realized this yet, an Argentine doesn't think like a typical American.

As I wrote earlier, the wealthy Argentine that lives in New York I met while moving out of Jacksons apartment told me, "Yes all my friends bought properties right after the "Crash" in 2001 & 2002 and are now trying to sell them as fast as they can.

Heres a very good example of what I'm talking about.

Last July I paid "Ana" do some homework for me. I had Ana look up some possible long term rentals in which I was willing to take a two year lease baised on what terms I could negociate.

She found me a "Gorgeous" place on "Quintanna", very nicely furnished, about 200 feet from the Alaver Palace Hotel, one of the best parts of Recoleta. The place was a huge furnished one bedroom, very large bathroon & Kitchen, I'd say close to 100 meters in size. With a one year leasing price of $1,000 USD dollars per month. I was excited about the place and told the Landlord & Leasing Agent I'd get back to them. Time passed and I did nothing and soon Ana's phone rang.

The leasing Agent wanted to know what was wrong and was I still interested. More time passed and she called Ana again dropping the rent to $850 dollars per month on a one year contract. I did nothing and returned home to Sex Prison.

Then again I returned to Argentina in September, the place was still for rent and Ana and I looked at it again. This time the price was $750 dollars per month with a years lease. I went home again and returned once more in November. The beautiful apartment was still "Vacant" no takers.

Now heres the "Math", if the going rate for prime property in Recoleta and else were is $150 per meter and up, which has been stated on this board. The apartment I was looking at had a value of about $150,000 USD dollars, all cash, all up front, you own it for $150,000 dollars with what ever hidden problems that were not disclosed.

But I could rent the place for $750 per month, (The "Nose Picker" price for American's, Furnished no less) $750 per month times 12 is $9,000 USD dollars per year. $9,000 dollars per year dividend by the $150,000 "Alleged" value of the place is 6%. Why "Fuck You Mongers", Exon will take his $150,000 and buy a AAA rated Corporate Bond, (I can Buy & Sell with a Phone call) which will pay a higher return and finance his Mongering with "Debt Service" from the Bond. Course we all know theres better Investments than that if You've got a Hundred & fifty Grand in Cash.

Its a pure and simple business decission, no brain surgery here. Why gamble in a foregin country thats both Policticaly & Econmomicly unstable on the hope's of the "Greater Fool" syndrome.

"Trees Don't Grow To The Sky" and neither will Argentine Real Estate.

Exon

Goblin
01-08-06, 18:03
And that is without considering furniture, operating expenses, and an obviously substantial vacancy allowance.

Argentina needs a stable monetary system to recover economically, a strong tourism sector will never be enough to impact Real Estate values significantly.

This forum does not appear to be the place for reliable financial advise.

Goblin.


My friend Andres pretty much sum's it up with the above quote replying to "Saint" below.

Now lets look at the facts.

Andres is an Argentine, he was born in Argentina, Love's his Country, is Very Highly Educated, Yet he can't fined a decient job in Argentina and is forced to work in another Country. That tells you something right there, If Argentina has to ship their 'Best" and their "Brightess" off shore to find work there's something basicaly flawed in their economy.

If any of us is qualified to speak on this subject it would be Andres. He knows the culture, the people and how they think. (In case some of you newbies haven't realized this yet, an Argentine doesn't think like a typical American.

As I wrote earlier, the wealthy Argentine that lives in New York I met while moving out of Jacksons apartment told me, "Yes all my friends bought properties right after the "Crash" in 2001 & 2002 and are now trying to sell them as fast as they can.

Heres a very good example of what I'm talking about.

Last July I paid "Ana" do some homework for me. I had Ana look up some possible long term rentals in which I was willing to take a two year lease baised on what terms I could negociate.

She found me a "Gorgeous" place on "Quintanna", very nicely furnished, about 200 feet from the Alaver Palace Hotel, one of the best parts of Recoleta. The place was a huge furnished one bedroom, very large bathroon & Kitchen, I'd say close to 100 meters in size. With a one year leasing price of $1,000 USD dollars per month. I was excited about the place and told the Landlord & Leasing Agent I'd get back to them. Time passed and I did nothing and soon Ana's phone rang.

The leasing Agent wanted to know what was wrong and was I still interested. More time passed and she called Ana again dropping the rent to $850 dollars per month on a one year contract. I did nothing and returned home to Sex Prison.

Then again I returned to Argentina in September, the place was still for rent and Ana and I looked at it again. This time the price was $750 dollars per month with a years lease. I went home again and returned once more in November. The beautiful apartment was still "Vacant" no takers.

Now heres the "Math", if the going rate for prime property in Recoleta and else were is $150 per meter and up, which has been stated on this board. The apartment I was looking at had a value of about $150,000 USD dollars, all cash, all up front, you own it for $150,000 dollars with what ever hidden problems that were not disclosed.

But I could rent the place for $750 per month, (The "Nose Picker" price for American's, Furnished no less) $750 per month times 12 is $9,000 USD dollars per year. $9,000 dollars per year dividend by the $150,000 "Alleged" value of the place is 6%. Why "Fuck You Mongers", Exon will take his $150,000 and buy a AAA rated Corporate Bond, (I can Buy & Sell with a Phone call) which will pay a higher return and finance his Mongering with "Debt Service" from the Bond. Course we all know theres better Investments than that if You've got a Hundred & fifty Grand in Cash.

Its a pure and simple business decission, no brain surgery here. Why gamble in a foregin country thats both Policticaly & Econmomicly unstable on the hope's of the "Greater Fool" syndrome, "Trees Don't Grow To The Sky" and neither will Argentine Real Estate.

Exon

Andres
01-08-06, 22:56
Andres is an Argentine, he was born in Argentina, Love's his Country, is Very Highly Educated, Yet he can't fined a decient job in Argentina and is forced to work in another Country. That tells you something right there, If Argentina has to ship their 'Best" and their "Brightess" off shore to find work there's something basicaly flawed in their economy.Thanks for your comments, Exon.

You mentioned something that I should detail more so that mongers get the precise picture: I was making a "good salary" for Argentine standards on my last job when living there (around ARS 3,000) which let me afford many things (chicas included) but may be short for supporting a family and / or pay education loans in the US.

The reason to leave Argentina, in my case, was because I can make much more than ARS 3,000 up north and get some positions that I wanted to work in, and work many less hours than in Argentina.

Andres

Orlandoirish
01-08-06, 23:43
Fellow Mongers:

This thread has been eye-opening. From EXONS CFP / CPA expertise, I've decided to rent apartments, like chicas, since its less risky than buying. A collegue of mine at Google is Argentinian, he's opening a resort in Pat and I might go in (25%) in that -- at least it will give me place to ski, beside Teluride, Aspen, which cost a FAAAL!

Thanks again gentlemen for the chanter, banter, and useful information.

;-)

O-Irishman

Andres
01-10-06, 22:23
AR is rated "mostly unfree, #107. AR distantly trails USA #11, IRELAND #3, CHILE #14, SPAIN #33, COSTA RICA #47, MEXICO #60, BRAZIL #81. However, you will find many more Chileans living in Argentina than the other way around, and most people would prefer to have a standard Spaniard salary living in Madrid than a standard Chilean salary living in Santiago (not to mention that Madrid is way more sophisticated and interesting to live in than Santiago) despite Chile being the highest of the 3 in such ranking.

My point is that you should take these rankings with a grain of salt.

Andres

Moore
01-10-06, 22:44
My point is that you should take these rankings with a grain of salt.Yes. Enjoy and live in Argentina, just don't invest there. Those are economic indices, not quality of life indices. I'd live in Brazil long before Ireland but my money would be in the Euro zone (or even Chile). Argentines generally don't move to any Latin American country like Chile anyway regardless of its economy, right? Argentines are Europeans after all, even EEUU is a step down. Although I did meet various Argentine whoares in Santiago who are making 3-5 times what they made in Argentina. Seems like a no-brainer to take a 90 minute flight to a Mercosur associate country and do something like that.

Hunt99
01-11-06, 12:39
Yes. Enjoy and live in Argentina, just don't invest there. Amen. When you can rent a big spacious place (like the Mansion) or even a small apartment for something like .30% per month of the value of a place, it is a no-brainer to rent rather than buy.

As an example, you can rent a nice studio or one bedroom apartment in Palermo or Barrio Norte for US$300 per month. The price to buy such a place would be US$100,000. Take your hundred grand, put it in a money market account, earn your US$333 in interest a month, and pay for an hour's fun once a month at 1707 Santa Fe with the extra 33 bucks. Or for the more adventurous, invest the hundred grand in a diversified stock portfolio and pay your rent with the dividends, and also get capital appreciation in the long term.

Argentina is the kind of country that is one law away from expropriating all real property owned by foreigners, giving your house/apartment to the cronies of the government, and telling you to go to hell. The Argentine government did just that to their entire middle class in 2001, they did it to their bond holders in 2005, and would certainly have no problem doing it to you in 2008, if you're stupid enough to invest your money there.

Norman Stormin
01-11-06, 15:13
[QUOTE=Hunt99]Amen. When you can rent a big spacious place (like the Mansion) or even a small apartment for something like.30% per month of the value of a place, it is a no-brainer to rent rather than buy.

If you apply Ricardo's Law of Rents, you would find that true real property values are correct only if expressed in Argentine pesos (I. E. They are inflated 3 times)

Moore
01-11-06, 20:08
I would buy a property here if I were going to live in it permanently, but not solely as an investment. Hunt99's scenario about expropriation is not at all far-fetched based on what has happened in Argentina. However, my understanding is that property has long enjoyed a somewhat sacred/respected status here and that titles, for instance, are well reviewed and clean if you buy something. Regarding the rents, I believe that they will eventually go up to the 1% level and not the other way around (property devaluation). In that case, buying a residence here would make more sense from an income standpoint, but I still don't see the impetus behind real capital growth here.

Thomaso276
01-11-06, 21:21
One other problem with buying property here is your estate. I am sure all of us would want to inherit a nice apartment in BA, but not all your relatives would appreciate having an asset 5000 miles away. Not exactly like inheriting a condo in Miami or Las Vegas.

PS. Because I live here, I am available to inherit any assets any monger has here in BA. Please PM me if you would like to put me into your will!

Exon123
01-12-06, 18:27
Thomaso,

Thats one of the major reasons, (other than economic's) I would shy away from Buying.

Some of us know you personally and your personal situation. You have a completely different deal than the rest of us mongers.

Your the only American I know in Buenos Aires that it makes sense to Buy, If something happend to you, (God for bid) it really won't matter to you or your estate. The apartment would transfer to where you would want it to go anyway.

You've bought a place to live. The rest of us would be buying an investment to Monger in.

I myself would probably spend six months a year down their and try and rent the other six months with hopes of trying to break even. I sure as Hell wouldn't want to "Croak" and have a $150,000 apartment in my estate.

So unless I can get "Ana Luna" or "Gysell" to marry me I'll keep my money right here in a "Revokable Trust" where I can watch it and have control over it.

Exon

Starfe
01-17-06, 17:53
But I would like everyone to know I represent a new line of
"Brokeback Mountain" hats. PM if you have any interest in a particular size. We only carry one color!

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/images/2005/08/321180.jpg

Hunt99
01-17-06, 19:02
But I would like everyone to know I represent a new line of.

"Brokeback Mountain" hats. PM if you have any interest in a particular size. We only carry one color!

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/images/2005/08/321180.jpgLOL! Good one!:D

Orlandoirish
01-17-06, 21:38
Cheap sweatshirt-$5

Stupid look-$15

Pink hat-PRICELESS

Starfe
01-17-06, 23:46
"I could be selling more hats in BA than any other individual in the world"

Could you imagine 2 out of 3 men walking the streets of BA in one of my hats!
Is it possible one hat could change my luck my life and my chances to get laid?

Starfe

Beakerh
03-17-06, 13:51
I would just like to say thank you all very much! I am very glad I was able to find this board it has been very helpful I was thinking of buying a place here to spend a few months a year for a holiday. But have read all your wise opinions and have opened my eyes thank you all very much and keep up the great work. I will be there in June and will ad hopefully a lot of great reviews!

Moore
04-14-06, 17:46
No ramifications, tax or otherwise that I know of Pappy. I think the CDI is quite easy to get. This is essentially just an extra form to fill out.

There are no capital gains taxes here and basically no one pays income tax on rental income.

Whether or not you report your foreign transactions to the IRS is your call, you are 100% liable for all worldwide income .

Armbia
04-14-06, 22:03
Amen. When you can rent a big spacious place (like the Mansion) or even a small apartment for something like.30% per month of the value of a place, it is a no-brainer to rent rather than buy.

As an example, you can rent a nice studio or one bedroom apartment in Palermo or Barrio Norte for US$300 per month. The price to buy such a place would be US$100,000. Take your hundred grand, put it in a money market account, earn your US$333 in interest a month, and pay for an hour's fun once a month at 1707 Santa Fe with the extra 33 bucks. Or for the more adventurous, invest the hundred grand in a diversified stock portfolio and pay your rent with the dividends, and also get capital appreciation in the long term.

Argentina is the kind of country that is one law away from expropriating all real property owned by foreigners, giving your house / apartment to the cronies of the government, and telling you to go to hell. The Argentine government did just that to their entire middle class in 2001, they did it to their bond holders in 2005, and would certainly have no problem doing it to you in 2008, if you're stupid enough to invest your money there.You are right on point. Armbia

Hunt99
04-15-06, 11:02
You are right on point. ArmbiaExcept that 100 grand stashed in a money market account now makes 366 dollars in interest a month.;)

Geo Eye
04-15-06, 13:22
Hey guys,

Very good advise. I too was not sure of buying or renting, I now know I will be renting 3 month out of the year.

The government is very unstable and they are more incline to have a "BIG BROTHER", all owned by state attitude.

Renting with $500 a month can get you a hell of an apt and the rest is off course to bang away.

Exon123
04-15-06, 16:55
Buying a House anywhere, even in Argentina is an Investment.

In the past 3 or 4 years there has been a housing boom world wide. The US market has seen unbelieveable appreciation in most markets, as in other places in the world including Argentina.

This has been predicated on two things. The crash of the stock market's in late 2001 and the lower interest and bond rates. Investers, renters and potentual home owners discovered owning property was a better investment than owning stocks or bonds. This is the normal ebb & flow of capital as it search's for higher return's, as it flows from one asset catagory to another around the world.

All this is changing as rates of return are improving on stocks, bonds and commodities, Oil, Gold, Silver, Copper ecta, ecta. And falling on real property. Simply because the interest rates are rising making it more expensive to buy, own, refinance or resell real property.

Argentina is unique in that all or most real estate tranactions are done for all cash in American Dollars.

Any good businessman before investing in anything will have an exit strategy, basicly saying to himself, "How the Hell Am I Going To Get Out Of This Deal If or When This Investment Go's South on Me".

In Argentina there is "No Exit Strategy" you own it with no way out. Simply because theres no way to finance the property. Your completely dependent on the "Greater Fool Syndrome", that is to say you've got to find someone dumber that you to pay as much as you all cash, mind you, or your going to take a loss.

Moreover, owning property in Argentina makes the investment completely dependent on the Argentine economy, its Government and its Policies. (Which I might add has not been to impressive) The government has "Fucked" everyone including itself, it simply can not be trusted. With 40% of the people living below the poverty line, 20% or more unemployed and 20% or better inflation every year, (They lie when they say its only 12% inflation) something has got to give down their somewhere.

Argentina is simply not the place to invest in real property.

The posters below have articulated a strategy which I've posted about before. Your better off investing your money in the USA and spending the income of the investment on rent in Argentina.

Just this last week I e-mailed a leasing agent in Buenos Aires that knows me personally about the prospects of a long term lease. I wrote asking for a one year lease with an option to renew for a second year or more. I asked for an unfurnished apartment which I could renovate to my own tastes. And I asked for something a little special. I asked for permission to Sub-Lease the apartment from time to time with the idea of picking up some of the expense while I'm not in town.

Exon

Geo Eye
04-15-06, 17:01
Hell of a good point Exon.

Hunt99
04-15-06, 18:59
Something you can do with US real estate that you can't do with Argentine real estate is to use leverage to your advantage.

Let's say you buy a 200K house in Georgia. The typical homeowner puts down 20K. He finances the rest with a 30 year loan at 6.5% interest. If the market advances 12% a year for 5 years (less than it has over the last 5 peak years in the RE market, but let's use it as an example) and at the end of the time he sells, his sales price is 352K dollars. He walks with 184K in his pocket. Let's drop out brokerage commissions and all that crap, since that'll be paid both in BsAs and the US. Over the 5 years he's paid 56K in interest (in reality less, because of tax deductions) let's say 10K in property tax, and has paid down his loan to about 168K. Probably have to add in landscaping and maintenance costs, but those usually aren't huge, and again you'll pay them on real estate anywhere you own it.

So, for my house in Georgia, after 5 years, I've made a fine return of roughly 213%, turning 86K (downpayment plus interest and taxes paid) into 184K in five years. Actually a bit better if you use the mortgage interest and property tax deductions as most homeowners do - let's say that the 66K in interest and property taxes were deducted at the middle-income 25% federal tax rate, plus 5% to the Governor - so your real after tax costs for mortgage interest and property taxes is only about 46K. So the real equation is that I turned 66K into 184K over 5 years, a 118K gain, also known as (almost) tripling your money.

Now, if you did the same thing in Buenos Aires, you will have to pay 100% of the costs up front. Assuming real estate does the same 12% a year for 5 years, the Argentine homeowner will have ended up with 352K from his investment of 200K. A not too shabby return of 76% over five years.

But it hardly holds a candle to what you can do in US real estate, using the power of leverage. In fact, in a scenario like the one here, you'd have to do three times better in Argentina real estate to make the same kinds of returns you can in the US.

Is the market in Argentina going to perform three times better than the one in the US? Which market is riskier to own assets in? Which government is more likely to steal your house from you? Which market is more liquid, so that if you need to sell your house to pay off your ex-wife's lawyers, you would be able to? If you rent out your house, and your tenants fail to pay, in which place will you be able to get the deadbeats evicted? Some questions you have to ask yourself when pondering the benefits of investing in Argentina or the United States.

Moore
05-08-06, 18:44
Nearly a year ago, one of the largest real estate agencies, Lacroze, opened a beautiful new ground level office very close to my apartment almost in the heart of Recoleta on Las Heras and Callao. It's an airy office - the type where you can clearly see all the 4-5 employees at their desks thru the windows. I walk by every day and have yet to see a single customer in there or a single employee doing anything but stare at the ceiling. Theyre all dressed in suits and have nice flatscreen workstations but could use some pointers about at least trying to look busy.

I know that one office is an irrelevant micro example but I thought Id mention that, apparently, business isnt exactly booming at this Recoleta location.

I actually walked in last year one time because I was considering moving. There are many advertisements of properties for sale/rent on the window. First off, I told them that I probably couldnt get a guarantee and asked them what properties were available. After a complex 5-second analysis and consultation, their answer was simple - "none". Really going the extra mile.

Hunt99
05-09-06, 11:36
Expropriation of foreigners' assets is the fashion du jour in South America. First Argentina seized the property of Suez, a French multinational. Venezuela's Chavez seizes oil assets and private real estate from the damn blood-sucking foreigners. Recently, Bolivia sends in the Army and seizes foreign energy companies' assets (developed mostly by the Brazilians). Following the example of his heroes Castro and Chavez, Evo Morales now threatens to seize real property owned by foreigners and redistribute it as "Property of Bolivians."

Can Argentina be far behind? I think not. It will be fun watching 20 people from the provincias squeeze into some gringo's house in San Isidro. Fuck the gringo. It belongs to the people of Argentina.

All of this will be very good news for mongers, because the Argie economy will turn to shit once again. :)

Moore
05-09-06, 14:47
Yes, you foreigners should be careful.

Dickhead
05-09-06, 15:45
I can look at the situation in two distinct ways. #A is a very rational and reasoned approach. #B is blunt and gets right to the point.

A) It is possible that given the gross rent multipliers and the lack of availability of suitable financing, renting could be preferable to owning in these particular market conditions.

B) Anybody who buys real estate now in Argentina is out of their mother fucking mind.

Hi DH,

My math arrived at the same conclusions.

Thanks,

Jackson

Andres Baggio
05-23-06, 15:00
Just to let Rudolph know that Miami is not a South American Airport.

Smooth Talker
05-28-06, 01:27
Thanks everyone for the excellent posts on buying property in BA. I am selling my condo in California and was thinking of investing in some rentals in BA. I see now it's safer / liquid / easier (for me) putting my hard earned cash into mutual funds / bonds in the USA and spending my gains in BA on the chicas.

I'm not new to buying real estate, but the economic realities as explained on this thread, has convinced me to wait for the next peso collapse before trying to purchase a apartment / condo to retire in. I have about 5 more years before I can stop working for the man. The chicas initially drew me to BA but its the world class tango / food / lifestyle / economics that would keep me there.

I will be in Medellin in mid September to mid October. Staying at El Castillo and the Medellin Mansion. If anyone else is in town, it would be great to continue this discussion, to buy or rent in Colombia, over some beers. I will be scoping out the apts for sale there also. The prices seem very reasonable in Medellin for a nice place, but much more dangerous and risks than owning in BA.

Anyways, thanks again everyone for the awsome informative postings pro or con.

Btw Jackson, if you happen to read this, I meet you a few times at the mansion bbq's two years ago. Andres, DH, capt Dave and and a few others were there also. Nice to see all the improvments to the web site since then. And a very belated, congratulations on your new wife. I had the honor of meeting her at the mansion bbq's also.

ST

Thomaso276
06-03-06, 12:47
Last Sunday La Nacion had these two graphs about real estate costs / cost to rehab apartments. Prices for apartments are not based on government figures, but info supplied by real estate firms, so take them with a grain of salt. Rehab / Recycle prices to completely redo an apartment were about right in my experience, article stated about 200 USD per sq. Meter (first quality stuff)

BadMan
07-13-06, 04:45
Can anyone tell me where is a good place to rent in BA,

I have been looking at the real estate websites online, and I think Recoleto, Puerto Madero, and Palermo look convenient. But since I don't know BA, I'm not sure if those are good places for foreigners, so if anyone can offer some advice as to where a good central location is, where I'm not far from everything, let me know. Also if anyone could tell me which are the most reliable websites for renting appt's.

Thanks.

Badboy

El Aleman
07-13-06, 07:12
I would stick to Recoleta and the adjacent parts of Palermo and Barrio Norte, more or less the area surrounded by 9 de Julio, Libertadór, Córdoba, and going north into the 3500 numbers.

I would avoid Puerto Madero. It certainly is a trendy area, but expensive and far away from everything. Maybe include the Microcentro in your search.

Best idea, before committing to anything long term, stay a few days and do some reconnaissance yourself.

Have fun,

El Alemán

BadMan
07-13-06, 12:22
Thank you El Aleman,

I have heard Puerto Madero is nice, thanks for letting me know its far from everything. I think I'll stick with recoleto or palermo for now, Only planning on renting for a month and taking it from there. Thanks again for the good info.

Tha Bad One

MCSE
07-13-06, 17:22
If you are staying for a longer term you should also consider Belgrano. Belgrano is a very nice area and more residencial. Also Palermo is very nice and portenos talk about many Palermos (Alto Palermo, Palermo Viejo, Palermo Nuevo, Barrio Parque, las Canitas, la Imprenta, etc) Living in BA for 7 years and I lived in Versailles, Barrio Norte, Recoleta and las canitas and my favorite is La Imprenta. La Imprenta is a more stylish neighborhood with boutiques, nice shops, easy going people and best of all close to the Palermo parks, Palermo lakes, golf course, Buenos Aires Tennis lawn, the race tracks, the polo fields, the clubs (pacha, mint, tequila, several in the Rosedal) and 10 mins from downtown / Puerto Madero or 5 from Recoleta / Retiro but my favorite on Las Canitas / La Imprenta is the girls. Girls around they are just beautiful, yes also by anywhere in the city but especially here they spend more money on taking care of their bodies, and as a proof there are a lot of gyms around. Streets are full of beautiful trees and I like to make a walk on the park which is very nice.

Belgrano is another area I like pretty much, the part of Barrancas de Belgrano is very nice, take a look on this video http://www.barts.com.ar/barts/flash_video.php?recordID=belgrano_ride
I've shooted some videos on some but not all of the neighborhoods of BA, which are available to download here http://www.barts.com.ar/barts/videos.php now on a faster server in the US so I think videos download faster now? (if they don't please let me know so I can complain)

Another smart option is Congreso. Years ago I hated Congreso because of the colectivos (busses) and no trees on some streets, but thinking twice I've realized that either renting or buying in Congreso it's having two times more space on your apartment and you are in the center of BA. Not bad at all.

On Puerto Madero I have contradictions; is the safer neighborhood in BA, is nice, no dirty streets but what I don't like about it is that you feel like on an island, there are almost no supermarkets, shops, locutorios as on the rest of BA, and the few kiosks around charge you expensive prices.

Herd Bull
03-23-13, 13:23
I knocked up a Brazilian airline stewardess in Dubai a few years ago (number 6 for me, for those keeping score). Anyway, she wants to stay home with the bambino and Brazil is pretty much a shit hole and very expensive. I own some ag property in Argentina already and she loves Buenos.

I plan to buy a two bedroom apartment, preferably near a park for the boy to play and get some Sun. A quiet street at night but close to some night life and shops. She will let me go out to apartamentos, etc., as long as I don't bring anyone home. (South American girls are awesome, no?) If affordable, I might buy a second nearby tiny studio for what the "upper crust" back home in West Texas refer to as a "fuck shack".

San Telmo looks really good. A place near Palermo Hollywood, but in a more quiet location might also be an option. Recoleta and Retiro seem to be too expensive. Is there anywhere else I should be looking? I might consider Montevideo and Punta del Este, as well, but it seems like good deals can be had in Buenos right now and maybe even more so in the next few months. Been to Buenos several times, but was not looking for real estate and did not pay much attention. Really just found a few apartamentos and beer joints and never came up for air.

Basically my criteria are: less than 300 k, at least two bedrooms, reasonably nice finishes or older character / charm, quiet at night, safe area, near a park or parks. I will only be living with her part time. Have to travel for business and be in the states once a month or so.

Any advice would be appreciated!

Daddy Rulz
03-23-13, 14:20
I knocked up a Brazilian airline stewardess in Dubai a few years ago (number 6 for me, for those keeping score). Anyway, she wants to stay home with the bambino and Brazil is pretty much a shit hole and very expensive. I own some ag property in Argentina already and she loves Buenos.

I plan to buy a two bedroom apartment, preferably near a park for the boy to play and get some Sun. A quiet street at night but close to some night life and shops. She will let me go out to apartamentos, etc., as long as I don't bring anyone home. (South American girls are awesome, no?) If affordable, I might buy a second nearby tiny studio for what the "upper crust" back home in West Texas refer to as a "fuck shack".

San Telmo looks really good. A place near Palermo Hollywood, but in a more quiet location might also be an option. Recoleta and Retiro seem to be too expensive. Is there anywhere else I should be looking? I might consider Montevideo and Punta del Este, as well, but it seems like good deals can be had in Buenos right now and maybe even more so in the next few months. Been to Buenos several times, but was not looking for real estate and did not pay much attention. Really just found a few apartamentos and beer joints and never came up for air.

Basically my criteria are: less than 300 k, at least two bedrooms, reasonably nice finishes or older character / charm, quiet at night, safe area, near a park or parks. I will only be living with her part time. Have to travel for business and be in the states once a month or so.

Any advice would be appreciated!More towards Cabildo not Cordoba. Lots of private schools, subway, train, parks, not many clubs. It's a buffer between Belgrano and Palermo.

FrankAndStein
03-23-13, 22:14
Right now you could get a screaming deal because you have USD.

After elections in October the word is the official rate will be allowed to catch up most of the way to the blue rate, so the USD advantage may wane.

I'd be looking now, and in fact I am thinking about it myself, and be ready to jump in a few months.

I've been all over BsAs, and the place that just continues to get better, is Palermo Soho, NOT Hollywood. They have finally built the Polo technical building by the tracks, wiping out the huge eyesore of abandoned buildings there. Another huge building is going up beside that one. A shopping center is going up on Godoy Cruz between Charcas and santa fe. They are renovating the old bodegas at paraguay and godoy cruz. Already a cool bar there ("Godoy" Hottest bar in BsAs is Rose bar at Honduras, just before the tracks. It has the big 'after office' party on thursdays and is THE place to be Saturday night. (Closed other nights). Indoor outdoor amazing bar. Have to dress well to get in.

Going to be a rough year or two, but in 5 years, this part of palermo is going to be the best place to live in BsAs by far.

Herd Bull
03-23-13, 23:13
Thanks for the replies.

I like the Colegiales and Palermo Soho areas, definitely on the list. Palermo Soho seems pretty expensive, but is probably worth it, no? Location is everything.

I had heard the same things about montevideo and punta del este on several other boards. Buenos is a far more appealing place, especially if you have foreign income right now.

A question: how do I get enough USD into the country for a transaction without going through a bank? I guess I could use xoom.com and transfer into a bank at the blue rate? Or do some people accept USD via a transaction in the states? The only property down there I have purchased was from an american, which made to transaction simple. The money never left the US.

Daddy Rulz
03-24-13, 02:50
I kind of like Colegiales, but it's light years away from Palermo Soho in terms of desirability. Location means Soho, without question. No tourist wants to rent a place in colegiales, all of them want Soho (if you need that, eventually).I thought he wanted a place for the knocked up F / A and kid. If it's family Colegiales, if it's single party guy then Palermo. I refuse to use the term Palermo Soho, there is no Housten Street to be south of, maybe NOCO (North of Cordoba) but that's stupid because it's all north of Cordoba. I can live with Hollywood because all those radio stations are there as well as Viejo because everything there is old but SoHo is a marketing term started by real estate people to raise prices.

The SE side of Colegiales is a 20 min walk, 10 min bike ride, 5 min 15 peso Taxi ride away from P Serrano or you could just take the 39 X3 bus. For long term value I think Colegiales is much better. There are tons of nice new buildings pushing right up to Dorrego and with Palermo so expensive and Belgrano just as bad Colegiales is going to become more gentrified. Mostly because it has much better access to public transportation. It's on both the Mitre and Suarez line, the D subte, and about 10,000 busses. You could also go down the hill a little on La Croze on the other side of Cabildo towards Libratador, that's really pretty down there with tons of trees.

Again though if it's going to be just you, any part of Palermo is better. Closer to Micro, more stuff.

Mis dos centavos.

Herd Bull
03-24-13, 15:52
I have been looking on the internet prior to my arrival, and there are nice historic buildings in Monserrat with really cheap prices. It is close to everything.

Any opinions?

There are some remodels which are cheap by any standard.

http://www.enbuenosaires.com/venta/mexico-monserrat-253013.html

FrankAndStein
03-24-13, 16:51
Palermo Viejo refers to both Hollywood and Soho, so I'm not sure what else to call the part that isn't Hollywood, as Viejo is bigger than Soho.

Recent article in Clarin referred to streets around Armenia, Malabia, Gurruchaga as being Palermo Brooklyn, due to old traditional cafes and restaurants closing and (in much opinion far better) real French cafes and more trendy restaurants opening up. It's not only the real estate people making these names up.

I have spent a lot of time in Soho, so this last trip I decided to try Hollywood...big mistake. Hollywood has not developed like I thought it would, except for endless modern, poorly constructed highrises.

Meanwhile Soho has much stricter density regulations, so the areas inside of Paraguay and Cabrera are so much nicer than Hollywood now. Hollywood is great if you want to build a highrise or put in a studio, but not for living, imo.

I rented a great apartment in Colegiales once, a famous old building that has a park on top of it. Close to Dorrego. Easy walk to Belgrano. Loved that place, but still too far from the really good cafe and bar scene in Soho. Might be perfect for herdbull's needs though.

I am biased towards my own needs, as a single guy I like to be no more than a 5 minute walk from cafes where I can sit and work via internet, while watching an endless parade of pretty women walk by. That's Soho.

Herdbull may indeed be better off in a quieter spot, but I was thinking if things don't work out and he ever needs to rent that apt...demand outside of recoleta and palermo is probably 90% lower.

San telmo is interesting, but no way in hell would I live or buy there. Not comfortable walking around at night. Not as much nightlife. A friend of mine bought there and he regrets it now.

I am all for finding the up and coming neighbourhoods, but it seems to me that the gentrification has stopped or gone backwards in some areas, like Hollywood. I wouldn't want to wait another 10 years for a place to become really enjoyable to live.

If Soho apts were $500 k I could see balking at that (I know some of the new big highrises are in that range) but at $150 k to $250 k I think the best investment will be as it always has been, location, location, location.

I'd buy overlooking Plaza Armenia if I was going to, and I might, if I can get that really good deal in the next 6 months.

DavieW
03-26-13, 13:07
I have been looking on the internet prior to my arrival, and there are nice historic buildings in Monserrat with really cheap prices. It is close to everything.

Any opinions?
I've lived in Monserrat for the last 3½ years (renting). You're right, it is close to everything and as I live here by choice I guess I shouldn't complain. But. It is very noisy and very shabby! If I had the money to buy a place I think I'd be looking for somewhere a bit quieter and cleaner in the north of the city.