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Rock Harders
01-02-06, 23:58
Fellow Mongers-

After living in Buenos Aires for 4 months (August 05-December 05) I am back in the USA for the holdays visiting family and tying up loose ends. I am planning an imminant return to Buenos Aires sometime in late January or early February. This time, however, I need to work. I graduated from the University of Delaware in May 2005 with a BA in International Relations, and my Castellano is good. I have experience as a bartender, bouncer, personal trainer, and english teacher. At this point I would take just about any decent paying job as long as it is not too ridiculous. Any and all help here would be greatly appreciated. Send me a PM if you would like my personal details.

Dirk

Moore
01-03-06, 02:36
DD,

I believe it is very difficult to find employment in Argentina. A "decently paid" job here by US / European standards basically doesnt exist. Many bilingual, young, local people with good degrees here work for less (often much less) than 2000 pesos / month in large companies. I have a professional friend who is a native Argentine and also a naturalized US citizen that lived in NYC for several years. She made about 3000 pesos / mo working here as a reporter for one of the largest broadcasters in the world and later worked as a private English instructor for corporate executives, for which she earned about 1500 pesos / mo. Many IT professionals also earn in that range. Although I am not sure what bartenders or personal trainers make, I'm almost sure it is less.

Also you will need a residence visa and DNI to be employed legally which are not so easy to get, at least in my experience.

IMO, the only viable options for working here are opening your own business or taking a job in the USA / Europe that is or will be posted in BA. Saint is one of the only people I know of who has apparently been successful opening a business here. For option two you're generally going to need at least a few years relevant business experience for a company to transfer you abroad.

Exon123
01-03-06, 03:42
Have you guy's posted below thought about becoming Prostitutes.

Thats the only job that pay's anything unless your an insider and that you'll never be.

Exon

Andres
01-03-06, 11:57
DD,

I believe it is very difficult to find employment in Argentina. A "decently paid" job here by US / European standards basically doesnt exist. Many bilingual, young, local people with good degrees here work for less (often much less) than 2000 pesos / month in large companies. I have a professional friend who is a native Argentine and also a naturalized US citizen that lived in NYC for several years. She made about 3000 pesos / mo working here as a reporter for one of the largest broadcasters in the world and later worked as a private English instructor for corporate executives, for which she earned about 1500 pesos / mo. Many IT professionals also earn in that range. Although I am not sure what bartenders or personal trainers make, I'm almost sure it is less.

Also you will need a residence visa and DNI to be employed legally which are not so easy to get, at least in my experience.

IMO, the only viable options for working here are opening your own business or taking a job in the USA / Europe that is or will be posted in BA. Saint is one of the only people I know of who has apparently been successful opening a business here. For option two you're generally going to need at least a few years relevant business experience for a company to transfer you abroad.I agree.

It is very difficult to secure a job that pays ARS 5,000 or more, and in these cases expect to work 10+ hours per day (Saint said he worked MUCH more than 10 hours / day) which doesn't leave much energy to monger around or to keep fit.

Besides that, the work culture doesn't yield much value on employment stability (you will witness much more competition and throat-cutting attitudes than up north) and for some professions, being over 30 or 35 years old makes it very steep to find a new job (unless you have many contacts) Would you like to risk your career in such environment, when laid off at 32-35? Not to mention the periodic financial earthquakes in Argentina (corralito and such) that may melt down your savings and assets.

A few months ago, a person was asking if it was worth to study Medicine at a local university (Universidad Favaloro) I found out last week that this university stoped paying wages and may be closed soon if their financial problems were not solved. Very risky university to be involved with.

Hope this helps,

Andres

Goblin
01-04-06, 21:51
I agree.

It is very difficult to secure a job that pays ARS 5,000 or more, and in these cases expect to work 10+ hours per day (Saint said he worked MUCH more than 10 hours / day) which doesn't leave much energy to monger around or to keep fit.

Besides that, the work culture doesn't yield much value on employment stability (you will witness much more competition and throat-cutting attitudes than up north) and for some professions, being over 30 or 35 years old makes it very steep to find a new job (unless you have many contacts) Would you like to risk your career in such environment, when laid off at 32-35? Not to mention the periodic financial earthquakes in Argentina (corralito and such) that may melt down your savings and assets.

A few months ago, a person was asking if it was worth to study Medicine at a local university (Universidad Favaloro) I found out last week that this university stoped paying wages and may be closed soon if their financial problems were not solved. Very risky university to be involved with.

Hope this helps,

AndresSo what happens if you lose your job does the government pay you unemployment insurance? What about a single mother of five children earning $400.00 pesos a month, does she get any assistance from the government?

Goblin

Andres
01-04-06, 22:11
So what happens if you lose your job does the government pay you unemployment insurance? What about a single mother of five children earning $400.00 pesos a month, does she get any assistance from the government?

GoblinIf you lose your job and if your job was legal (that is, if the employer paid taxes) then you are entitled to a 12-month unemployment compensation, which adds up to ARS 400-500 per month.

A mother of 5 wouldn't get any higher than the Plan Jefas & Jefes, which adds up to ARS 150 per month.

Andres

Saint
01-07-06, 13:36
Dirk,

Listen to these fellas. They are right. Argentina coming to monger and party is different than living here day in and day out. I work at least double of what I worked in the USA. I had a cake life in the USA never working more than 8 hours a day with about 4-5 months of vacation a year. Of course I work a lot harder here since I own my own companies. The hard work and long hours have attibuted the rapid rise and success but I would say your chances are slim and none of finding a "decent paying job".

The simple fact remains that people don't need to pay you any more than a local. Why would they pay you more than a bilingual local? Unemployment is improving but still there are many talented people that you can hire for not a lot of money. Inflation makes it more expensive to live here for the locals. I make u$s so I don't really feel inflation but the majority here make pesos and if you worked here you would make pesos so it would be tough to have a good life.

Still, moving here was the best decision of my life. I just went to the USA for vacation a few weeks ago. I really don't miss the USA at all. There is nothing really I can't get in BA (except some fast foods that I miss) that I had in the USA. I have great friends, gorgeous girlfriend and a good business so life is good.

As usual, Andres is correct. Life here is different than the USA. You can't get ahead in Argentina being an employee. You have to be an owner of a company and really it's not easy. As Moore pointed out. It's very difficult here. I've spent a fortune on legal bills, etc. Lots of red tape. To really be successful here you have to have a significant capital investment in a business and work hard. There are no short cuts here.

It's quite easy now for people to think it was easy and I have it lucky. Yadda, yadda. Go back and research these boards. You can see since my first trip in 2002 I put together a business plan over the course of 2 years for my business. It takes big balls, guts and courage to move to South America and try to start a business. Now that some foreigners have seen me do it they know it's possible. However, like another member posted below.....he doesn't know any foreigners that have been successful and I can probably say the same thing. I've seen a lot of people try and fail here. It's not an easy place. It wasn't luck at all for the reasons I am making it here. In fact, I would say that most people that try will fail. I did get lucky meeting some great people down here that helped but in the end it was prior planning, a solid business plan and taking the risk to try. Most in life won't take the risk to try something like this.

Although I work a lot I still have fun. I traveled within Argentina several times this year. I just got back from a 6 week vacation hitting about 6 countries including traveling throughout Australia. I haven't mongered in a long time but really if you move here there isn't a big need to as if you were here on vacation. The city is full of beautiful non-pro girls. Still, every now and again I go with a client to the clubs. It's been a while but just knowning that Blacks is around the corner from my pad is a good feeling.

Take care and good luck.

Saint

FireDawg2000
01-09-06, 11:26
Fellow Mongers-

After living in Buenos Aires for 4 months (August 05-December 05) I am back in the USA for the holdays visiting family and tying up loose ends. I am planning an imminant return to Buenos Aires sometime in late January or early February. This time, however, I need to work. I graduated from the University of Delaware in May 2005 with a BA in International Relations, and my Castellano is good. I have experience as a bartender, bouncer, personal trainer, and english teacher. At this point I would take just about any decent paying job as long as it is not too ridiculous. Any and all help here would be greatly appreciated. Send me a PM if you would like my personal details.

DirkWould you like to work for an American company, make American dollars, work six months on, get paid for 12 months, get flown to Argentina for free at the end of contract, live in Buenos Aires or where ever for 6 months, then come back to the job and work 6 months again? Would a rotation like that interest you? You won't be living in BA full time, but you'll earn a yearly wage for 6 months of work. The other 6 months you can live in BA and have a great time until it's time to go back to work.

If this interests anybody let me know and I'll post the details.

FireDawg2000
01-09-06, 14:14
OK, according to my inbox people are interested. The company is called Raytheon, specifically Raytheon Polar Services. I'm sure most of you heard of Raytheon, but if not they are a company that deals with US government contracts that include an assortment of operations and maintenance support jobs. Similar companies would be Halliburton, KBR, Dyncorp, ITT, Bechtel, etc.

This particular operation is out of ANTARTICA and supports the USA Antartica program. Complete information and job board can be found at www.polar.org. Any and all information that you need to know will be found there.

Just to give you all a little backround, there are 3 stations within Antartica where operations take place. McMurdo Station, South Pole Station, and Palmer station. When working at McMurdo or the South Pole station employees are routed through New Zealand to get there. When working at the Palmer station employees are routed through Santiago, Chile and the Punta Arenas, Argentina. When departing Antartica you travel back the same way you came. The ideal situation would be to work at the Palm Station and when your six month contract is up elect to end your travel in Santiago instead of going to the USA. If you decide to work again after six months they can pick you back up in Santiago. Are you guys with me so far?

Contract positions in harsh areas of the world pay really good money. Personally, I am currently writing you guys from Iraq where I work for a similar US contractor. From what I've been told the average salary for positions in Antartica are 80,000 USD. Like I said, you work six months, but you get paid for 12. With that kind of money I'm sure you can live well in BA without having to work for the next 6 months. At least that's what I'm guessing.

Sound interesting? If so check out the website. There is plenty of info that will answer all your questions. Then check out the job board to see if you qualify for any of the positions.

If you have questions please feel free to e-mail me.

Good luck BA Mongers!

I hope to check out BA for the first time next month.

Hunt99
01-09-06, 15:38
Finally, a newbie poster who offers something valuable to the board. Welcome FireDawg. Let us know if there are things we can help you with. You certainly will enjoy your upcoming trip to BsAs.

Goblin
01-09-06, 16:06
When you spend some time up north in -45 degree weather as I have you will know why they have problems with recruitement even at those wage levels.

A few months in solid ice would be good character builder for some of the red tipped full time pussy hunters around here though.

Might come back actually appreciating the chicas for something other than their sexual services.

FireDawg; be careful not to ask too many questions around here, you'll be flamed by some of the old guard.

Take it from a senior member.

Goblin

Exon123
01-09-06, 17:21
hers what I'd do but its not for everyone, you must be a complete self starter thats self motived, that gets himself out of bed everyday & works hard.

Its become a "global economy", thats to say that one country can can do certain things more efficently than another, thats why we trade with them, China is a good an example.

Use argentina weakness, make them your strength's.

Become an "agent", work on straight commission for both sides of the border.

Use your strengths too your advantage, you speak the spanish, your an american citizen and can travel back and fourth freely, your educated, young have nothing to lose by investing a little time. Argentine's for the most part don't have that advantage, use it to your benifit.

There a hundreds if not thousands for little argentine companies that would love to have their own agent selling their products in the united states. Their problem is they don't have the money, nor the visa, nor the where will all to do it or know even where to start. Hell, you could even make a living at it on "e-bay" from argentina if you thought about it.

The need is there fill the need and make money at it. The purest from of capitalism.

The same holds true from the us side of the equation. There are hundreds of thousands of us companies that would love an "agent" in argentina and or south america but don't know where to start and can't afford a full time salesman.

Work on straight commission, I'd suggest 5% which is standard for most commodity products. All you nead is one "good hit" and your set for life.

Use all the modern day technology to your advantage. The computer, the digital camera and the vonage telephone system to communicate back and forth at little or no cost to you. Something that most argentines can't do by themself's. Again your playing your strengths against their weakness.

I'd suggest to start with products that argentine's are competitive with on a world wide basis.

Leather is a good example, perhaps "leather shoe's". Find a factory in argentina and "cut a deal" as their agent in the usa for 5% of what you sell. They'll love you for idea. Then find a multi- store shoe retailer in the us and cut their wholesaler out of the deal, selling direct from the factory to the showroom floor. Sure there are custom & credit issues involved but thats what your getting paid for. Solved those problems, make it happen.

Remember you can commumicate with e-mail, telephone and pictures for nothing.

You might look at the "wine" business as an other example.

Go to mendosa and look around, talk to people, you speak spanish, ask questions.

I have a cub scout buddy thats the largest independent bottler of wine in the united states, he doesn't own a grape or a vine. He buy's grape juice any where he can find it all over the world including argentina. Ferments it in has own tanks, bottles it off and sell's all over the usa. He can't find enough grape juice, he's always looking for more.

Lumber might be another example. While waiting in line at the airport one time I met a guy that had traveled all the way to argentina to buy argentine mesguite wood. It was being ruff saw'en, then kilen dryed in argentina, then loaded in 50, 000 pound container's and shipped to l. A. Then milled into hard wood flooring which was sold all over the united states. "I'd love 5% of that deal"

My point being is to find the little nich that no one has discovered, fill the nich and make a very good living at it. You were a bartender once, what makes you a "salesman", you must sell yourself to the venders and make it happen. Your only limited by your own imagination in the scope of things.

Think of it this way, I sell a million dollars worth of argentine product into the us market, (which is nothing by the way) "I make $50, 000 usd" with very little expense to me. And I have all thease technological tools to help me do so, tools that did not exist 10 years ago. The computer cuts out all the red tape, you deal right to the point of purchase.

Set the stage for your deal before you leave to united states by making the sales calls now. Then when you get back down their you have a place to start. You already have "contact's" in the united states.

If you can make this happen for yourself, you don't need partners, you'll make some "big money" and have a life time job not just scratching out a living like so many people I've met down and posted on this board.

I've done this type of thing myself here in the united states. Made "huge" money at it. I'd do it again on an 'international basis" but I'm getting to old and lazy. It is an internation economy for "everyone", remmember that use it to your advantage.

Best of luck to you.

Exon

Moore
01-09-06, 21:44
Opportunities.

That is quite interesting Firedawg. I didnt know there were opportunities in Antarctica. Now theres a way to travel there cheaply.

As Exon writes, there probably are abundant opportunities for export from Argentina. One that he doesnt mention is IT - huge potential as so many US / Europe companies are subcontracting to India, yet Argentina is relatively virgin territory with lots of cheap talent. A market that Exon mentions which seems completely untapped is wine. Great wine here, low prices, good marketable name. Often when at an overseas restaurant I'll see European, South African, Australian, some US, and Chilean wine but not Argentine. It seems that with a bit of marketing flair one could make a fortune exporting it throughout the world.

Thomaso276
01-09-06, 22:33
My brother works with outsourcing folks from India. English is widely spoken and he says they are very cooperative. Something that may not be so common here.

Moore
01-10-06, 00:08
I've heard good and bad tales about the local Indians. A good friend of mine has subcontracted to them on a limited basis but has no plans to again. Says he'd rather pay reliable US programmers that he can clearly communicate with. According to him, Indians are intelligent, hard working people except the ones actually in India.

Obviously English is an issue here. But the IT guys Ive known have generally had at least a decent command of the language, possibly because its the base language of thier trade.

Monger514
01-10-06, 00:14
One that he doesnt mention is IT - huge potential as so many US / Europe companies are subcontracting to India, yet Argentina is relatively virgin territory with lots of cheap talent. This is something I know about because I am actually doing it. Not for the faint of heart.

What is it they say in Brazil? Oh yeah...."Brazil is the future. And always will be".

Welcome to Argentina, Dirk!

Jon32
01-22-06, 17:31
Does anyone in the forum know about working in Buenos Aires with an American law degree? Still in law school right now, and looking for a summer internship that will hopefully set up full time employment when I graduate.

Thomaso276
01-23-06, 01:17
What is wrong with this picture. Law degree from USA (licensed or recent graduate? Wants to work in Argentina with a completely different legal process (Continental) Fat chance. What are the chances of an Argentine law graduate getting a job in the USA? I can see it now, you walk into your neighborhood law firm and get a spanish speaking Argentine who is going to handle your divorce, based on his Argentine schooling and training! Bye, bye house, pension, car, everything!

Besides the obvious, let's just ask a bunch of guys who are chasing chicas, retired, or looking for specific bus routes to Alto Palermo about career choices! Why not contact the Association representing lawyers here, or some international organization specializing in overseas opportunites for graduates with USA JD Degrees? Or how about the law school where you paid thousands where they may have placement assistance? What kind of budding lawyer asks a question like this? What kind of research did the writer do before posing this question. Isn't library research the backbone of law school?

God help us.

Moore
01-23-06, 03:20
I've found that it is quite common for respected Argentine attorneys and doctors to spend a few years in the USA for training/studies/residency/practice. Many doctors & attorneys that I know here have done so. In the case of attorneys, look at the profiles of major law firms here and you will see that many partners received law degrees in the USA, often at prestigious colleges.

However, I don't know of a single case going the other way. A US lawyer/doctor coming down here to work/study for a few years? Never heard of it. Regardless, I would think that your Spanish would have to perfect to do such a thing. Also make sure that a 90% pay cut and a few years getting a local law degree doesn't bother you. In an exceptional case, maybe if your multinational US firm had an associate office here you MIGHT be able to work out some kind of exchange, but I even doubt that.

I'm only going by personal experience though.

Rock Harders
01-23-06, 04:09
I do know of one lawyer, who also happens to be a CPA, that lives in Buenos Aires and is able to successfully conduct his operations here. He represents Americans that do business here and is no way certified as an attorney under Argentine law. I think his clients are Americans that are involved in the Wine and Soybean arenas. He still serves his clients back in the USA via the internet, vonage, and other marvels of modern technology. However, he still travels back to the USA about once a month to keep things in order.

Sometimes, law firms will send attorneys abroad if they have some sort of business in said foreign country. My uncle is a partner in a Wall Street based law firm that deals primarily with securities. I know that he used to, during the 90's, travel to Budapest, Hungary a few times a year on business. I also remember him telling me that they used to do deal with Argentina and other Latin American countries, but pulled out when the shit started to hit the fan in the late 90's. So basically, the bottom line, as far as I know, is to pass the bar in NY state and become employed with a NYC law firm that focuses a significant portion of their business on international concerns.

Suerte,

Dirk

Savoy
01-23-06, 13:07
I do not know Argentina but witnessed in some other countries that a US lawyer can practice as a legal counselor or represent the company in the USofA if needed. Considering that Argentina has strong ties with the US, businesswise, there might be a demand for that. Also, I know some US lawyers making more money in another country than what they could in the US.

Hunt99
01-23-06, 15:36
I do not know Argentina but witnessed in some other countries that a US lawyer can practice as a legal counselor or represent the company in the USofA if needed. Considering that Argentina has strong ties with the US, businesswise, there might be a demand for that. Also, I know some US lawyers making more money in another country than what they could in the US.To do this you need:

1. Clients.

2. Experience.

3. Expertise in the foreign country.

Unless there are some undisclosed facts that we're not aware of, our soon-to-be newbie US law school graduate has none of these.

Jon32
01-23-06, 16:28
Thanks for the responses. I must say they are pretty discouraging.

I was hoping for more responses like Savoy.

VaqueroNY
01-24-06, 11:01
Still in law school right now, and looking for a summer internship that will hopefully set up full time employment when I graduate.I am not in law school nor do I plan on being a lawyer but I have al ot of experience with summer internships. One route you might consider is an internship through the US Department of State (you are an American right?) http://careers.state.gov/student/programs/particip_bureaus.html#wha. The WHA Bureau has oversees unpaid slots.

Aside from what has already been said; A little google-fu might help you find a US based firm that does work in Argentina of course you should be prolific in Spanish.

Thomaso276
01-30-06, 08:41
Gosh Jon, I thought attorneys were supposed to keep their cool. You would be too easy in the courtroom! I can see you stomping around when you don't get the answer you want from the witness.

I haven't run into too many EEUU Law firms down here (none) - have you found any? Apparently you spent a little more time researching your own question. Something your professors would encourage. I do remember one law firm that was recommended to me (mostly Europeans) and they had a lawyer on staff who supposedly went to Cornell. Did she get her JD from there? Was she a member of the NY Bar? Who knows. They did tell me she was Argentine. Probably spoke English and Spanish, a real need for someone who wants to work in South America. European firms are more common here because of this Argentinas' ties to Spain and familiarity with the legal system from the Continent.

When you get a job down here working for an American Law Firm let me know and I will stand corrected. Until then, study hard and good luck with the BAR as I hear some folks take it several times and never seem to pass.

Jon32
01-30-06, 09:40
Gee thanks. Reread my last post again.

Now, if you had just posted that you knew of a law firm with an American attorney & the name of the firm, that would actually have been helpful! Look at all the space you wasted being a dick instead of being nice.

Thomaso276
01-31-06, 00:09
I have decided to partake in this thread in a more professional way. I am now looking for work in Buenos Aires. I have discovered a market that screams to be filled. I am currently seeking clients who desire pertinent information from Argentina to assist them in pursuing career goals that will greatly enhance their earnings and allow them to build wealth and security. My services will not include background information on hotels, chicas, restaurants, government rules or cheap airline flights. That information is freely exchanged in the spirit of this board.

I am limiting myself to those potential customers and clients who want an economic advantage, those who are hoping that someone will provide information for free (usually inaccurate information) that would otherwise cost hundreds or thousand of dollars. Imagine, if you will, that you have a desire to attend medical school in Buenos Aires because you heard it was less expensive or because the admissions standards are nearer your mediocre grade level. Wouldn't you like to have someone on the ground with experience in writing detailed reports providing you exact information on the Medical School situation here?

How about starting a business in Buenos Aires? Would you like to know the fastest growing industries, tax structures, the employee mandated benefits, the termination process, the demographics of your anticipated location and competition in the immediate area?

Looking for work with a professional firm in Buenos Aires? Any engineers, computer programmers, attorneys (they are called Doctors here! Etc. Looking for opportunities? Wouldn't you prefer someone to personally visit the top firms as your representative, carrying your resume and specifics regarding your working conditions and then reporting back to you with clear, reliable and accurate information?

I am offering these services at 500 dollars per hour, 2500 dollar retainer minimum. Compared to the headhunters in the USA, this is a bargain. As I recall, they charge a large percentage of your salary. I am sure everyone would agree that there should be some compensation for anyone who assists a person in obtaining employment or furthering their career. Consider that simply asking the question, "I am a computer systems analysist, any job opportunites in BA?" will not get you the successful results you deserve!

If you are interested PM me. If you aren't, please don't expect us retirees to work for free so another can benefit and profit.

Long live capitalism.

Thomaso276
01-31-06, 10:41
Read the last one with the profane, basic personal attack as well. No effect.

I guess you aren't interested in my services.

Wishing you good luck with the Public Defender's Office.

Moore
01-31-06, 11:07
I thought that everyone posting on this thread already admitted making a mistake since the "Seeking Employment in BA" thread already exists. So much for that. Sometimes Jackson will merge redundant threads like this one (as he did recently with Kansas) and I hope he'll do the same with this thread. Just deleting most of it would be best since it adds no value to anything. At least some squabbles are funny/entertaining but this one is gay (although the "wishing you good luck with the Public Defender's Office" comment was marginally funny :p).

Jon32 - I think your question was already answered by a few posters with extensive local business and / or legal experience. Thomaso - I don't see anything wrong with Jon's asking the initial question if he knows nothing about this country and believes someone might have some helpful information. As I wrote, I agree with you and others that the chances of a US legal newbie finding an opportunity here appear extremely slim. But I don't see why you had to "slam" Jon just for asking. Maybe you simply don't like lawyers - neither do I.

Now please stop this nonsense.

Thanks,

Moore the Mediator

Hunt99
01-31-06, 13:46
Jon32, each of your whopping 9 posts on this board is about you finding a job in Buenos Aires.

With your polite demeanor, knowledge of grammar, and superiority over such bourgeois nonentites like Thomaso, I think it self-evident that you will have no problem getting a corner office in the Alem Tower. In addition, I am sure you will have a bevy of beautiful assistants available to aid you in your conquest of the Porteno legal culture.

Your education and erudition are second-to-none. Your qualifications are unquestionable. Your experience the envy of us all.

Why continue to waste our time with your drivel then, you asshole? Fuck off.

Jon32
01-31-06, 15:35
Obviously an Admin merged the two threads. Why an Admin did that instead of deleting the messages? I don't know.

Christ, I was just replying to Thomaso in all my messages. I PM'd him about what his problem was in the very beginning, and he enjoyed posting in public so much that I replied in public.

I only posted twice in 'seeking employment in buenos aires' which is a helpful thread. All my other posts were in 'working'. Regardless, it was still a waste of space.

And for some reason, Thomaso's original worthless post which ignited the messages back and forth, is now gone. I think he deleted it since he realized it was so rude and uncalled for.

And now for the obligatory, Fuck you to Hunt99. I never did anything out of line to incite personal attacks. But if you want, we can also meet when you get back to the US/or when I get down there and we can continue the pleasant conversation. I know cyberspace is an easy place to be an asshole. To bad the conversations never do continue in person.

Hunt99
01-31-06, 15:54
To quote another poster, Jon, "I wouldn't piss in your mouth if your teeth were on fire."

You are nothing more than a boy, barely on the verge of graduating law school, and are soliciting total strangers on the internet about your job prospects. Nobody wants to hire you in the US? I am not surprised. You are an offensive little troll in your online incarnation, I'll bet you come across in a similar fashion when encountered face-to-face. You're a loser. That's why you don't have any other options than to ask mongers to help you with ideas for finding a job.

If you had contributed something - anything - of value to the members of this board, I am sure you'd have gotten a positive reception as a newbie. Since you haven't, we're giving you a collective smack with the backs of our hands.

Jon32
01-31-06, 16:30
I did get a positive reception. The 5 or so posts replying to my original question is all I expected.

I did not post a resume looking for someone to hire me. I did not solicit for job prospects. I asked a question which was not out of line. Other similar questions are posted on the board.

If you want to continue our conversation instead of wasting space, call me or private message me. We can PM each other or I can PM you my phone number. Maybe if I am lucky we are in the same area code and we can get together. I'd like to hear you be so insulting in person.

Again, it's easy to be a dick in cyberspace.

Moore
01-31-06, 16:31
Jesus!!!!!

Thomaso276
01-31-06, 17:45
"I PM'd him about what his problem was in the very beginning,"

I never got a PM, that I can recall. Wouldn't matter. Never deleted my post, admin must have; as his his right.

Got no problem with these posters, probably nice guys in their own right but I reserve the right to submit dumb answers to dumb questions. They take it so personal!

I never invoke race, creed, sex, etc. Which would be a bad thing, some sort of federal violation. Just smart-ass answers. What's wrong with that?

Jon: I know Hunt, hope your are in the heavyweight division.

This weeks lesson: review FFS Assault, so as to be clear on the elements of the statute should any encounters take place. Remember, all elements must be present in order to file a charge. Next week: Aggravated Assault.

Later.

Mpexy
01-31-06, 18:56
My.02 cents on a few isolated parts of this -

I don't think I've ever seen a statement or post from Jon32 that he wanted to practice Argentinian law. But early on those who replied sort of portrayed him as somehow wanting to land and compete against local BA lawyers. When I read his first post, I took it to be what everyone else in law that wants to practice in an international position means - to get an post where the USA lawyer brings their USA law expertise to local firms such as in BA who do international business abroad and specifically in the USA. So at least on that one score - bashing Jon32 for supposedly being shall we politely say naive to think he could compete against, take over, etc. The local law environment is just a classic straw man argument tactic.

On the other hand, Jon32 - anyone who knows even a little about the law which I assume those who replied to you like Hunt did would pretty much know that for any USA laywer to land an international posting, you need some pretty solid experience in the USA before going abroad. The whole point is the international firm wants your USA specific experience and expertise. If you're going to be right out of law school, zero top tier or even second tier mid to large size firm practice, say at least get to 4th year associate, it is pretty naive to even look for an international posting, especially since - well, you are in law school and should know this. If I assumed wrong on this and you actually were looking to land a normal first year associate position in BA to practice Argentinian law, well - I don't think you deserve the level of rudeness in the replies to you, but you'll have to admit that's just plain dumb and makes people think all sorts of odd things about you.

Last comment - I also wonder if people would be as rude in person? I'm not talking because of the potential for a fight - let's say there's zero chance that would happen. Or as low as odds can go. Deserved or not, just spewing out a bunch of cuss words seems completely low class. And personally, I doubt many, not all but a lot, wouldn't be able to do so face to face. So not calling for a violent encounter, but I actually really would like to be there if and when Jon32 comes down to BA to see if the harsh repliers would face to face say the same.

Rock Harders
01-31-06, 20:08
I think I should respond to this, since I started the thread to begin with.

To All the Old Fart Mongers:

Take it easy on Jon32- maybe be wasn't being realistic thinking he might be able to practice law in Argentina, but asking for input from a group of older (ie experienced) mongers certainly isnt the worst group of people to ask. In order to find yourself in Argentina livin' the monger life one would have to at the very least be mildly successfull. Just because the majority of Buenos Aires Mongers were not wise enough in their youth to realise that Buenos Aires is where the angels are, do not exact wrath upon the new crop (myself included) looking to get the best of Buenos Aires while still young able to really exploit all that this fine city has to offer.

To Jon32:

My experience in looking for a job in Buenos Aires is that there are few options, and practicing the law is not one of them. You can teach english, be a personal trainer, or get a sales job. Other than that, all comments made by fellow mongers regarding the impossibility of a "good" job apply here.

Suerte,

Dirk Diggler

Mpexy
01-31-06, 20:18
Or bring your job with you to BA. One of the lawyers my group works with on IP law issues actually lives and works out of Costa Rica.

But again, like the landing an international position for USA based law abroad, you'll need some years of experience before you can go into private practice for yourself. Although, I have heard of first year grads setting up their own small boutique practices.

Jackpot
01-31-06, 20:29
Hunt, get a long tweezer and pull the hair out of your big a**ss.

Leave the kid alone!

Jackpot

Hunt99
01-31-06, 21:40
Take it easy on Jon32- maybe be wasn't being realistic thinking he might be able to practice law in Argentina, but asking for input from a group of older (ie experienced) mongers certainly isnt the worst group of people to ask.We don't even know that he's a monger. He's offered nothing - nothing - to indicate he's anything except a troll. How did he find this board? ROFL. Go away Jon. Unless you offer something of value to the members of this board I'll continue to slam you at every opportunity.

Jon32
01-31-06, 21:40
Input (good or bad) but with common courtesy is all I asked for. Much thanks for the last four posts, all of which had the above two things.

Hunt, you don't even know I'm a monger? Go fuck yourself, I have more then 100 posts in the other two forums combined. Majority of which are about adventures, and lately with pictures. I know sometimes people post unrelated topics (ironic isn't it?) And after Jackson answers a question of mine I will be a paying member. Go Fuck Yourself.

I do plan on making a trip down there. Hopefully to the mansion to. I've been wanting to since I first read the board five years ago. Maybe I have not offered anything of value to the Argentina board, but that's because I haven't been there yet.

Maybe this board is different then the others, but on the other boards, we don't slam newbies who have questions. Maybe we write RTFF, but not selfishly write "until you add something of value". I've had countless PM's from people visiting my city asking me for phone numbers. I don't reply with a fuck off, I reply with a phone number. There would be no reason for any of the boards if everyone kept information to themselves.

Slam me, tell me to go away, but I'll let you know when I'm down there so we can have that beer.

Hunt99
01-31-06, 22:30
.....isn't something you offered Thomaso or anyone else, Jon. So you'll get none, boy. Fully half of your posts on this board were deleted due to your stupid questions and profane outbursts. Time for you to get a bit of your own medicine.

Nicking somebody's handle from another board proves nothing.

So, you gonna threaten to beat me up again, big boy? I am sooooooo scared.

Moore
01-31-06, 22:42
Lets fix a place and time for the event and I'll bring the popcorn. Ring girls shouldnt be hard to find either.

Jon32
01-31-06, 22:48
No, you're right, it's not something I offered. I only expected it. If you don't understand how being nice to someone works then I have nothing left to say. I should probably be talking to your parents who should have taught you that.

It is not a matter of who is nice first.

Just PM me your comments instead of posting them in public. I don't think anyone wants to keep reading these posts.

To say I stole the name from another forum is ridiculous.

I'm not threatening you in any way, I just want to meet you when I come down there.

ElCaco
02-13-06, 07:37
Hi,

I translate French and Spanish into English, and could sometimes use fellow English speakers to proofread my English for grammar, style, punctuation, etc. Problem is the deadlines are sometimes tight and I really only want to work with somebody who has writing-related training and experience (ie a translator, journalist, editor, writer, etc) - or, ideally, underline ideally, experience translating French into English (but I know that's rather hard to find in BA)

Anyway, if you're interested, please let me know.

Andres
02-13-06, 10:08
Hi, I translate French and Spanish into English, and could sometimes use fellow English speakers to proofread my English for grammar, style, punctuation, etc. Problem is the deadlines are sometimes tight and I really only want to work with somebody who has writing-related training and experience (ie a translator, journalist, editor, writer, etc) - or, ideally, underline ideally, experience translating French into English (but I know that's rather hard to find in BA)

Anyway, if you're interested, please let me know.I remember having seen at the Canadian embassy (Figueroa Alcorta and Tagle) a list of authorized translators accepted by the embassy, some of which were official tranlators to both English and French.

Hope this helps,

Andres

Strad
02-25-06, 11:44
Andres,

What is the unemployment rate in Argentina, would you know?

Thanks!

Strad

Andres
02-25-06, 17:03
Andres,

What is the unemployment rate in Argentina, would you know?

Thanks!

StradStrad,

Hard to say. It is supposed that INDEC (Argentine Statistics Bureau) collect meaningful data, so they should have the current figures. They may count social security recepients as employed, for political pressure from government.

I guess that it is around 10-15% (no higher than 20% , no less than 10%)

Andres

Strad
02-25-06, 18:39
Andres, thanks for the reply!

Is such rate high for unemployment? USA has 5% unemployment I believe.

Strad.


Strad,

Hard to say. It is supposed that INDEC (Argentine Statistics Bureau) collect meaningful data, so they should have the current figures. They may count social security recepients as employed, for political pressure from government.

I guess that it is around 10-15% (no higher than 20% , no less than 10%)

Andres

Moore
02-25-06, 19:26
I saw the "official" unemployment number in Clarin a few weeks ago and I think it was about 13%. As Andres said, I believe that many recipients of unemployment social programs are not counted as unemployed.

Also keep in mind that many of the employed people are severely underemployed and / or degreed professionals working as waiters or taxi drivers.

"White lies, Damn lies, and Statistics"

If one has work experience, hiring experience, job search experience, and local contacts, one knows what 5% , or 12% unemployment "feels" like. 3% and youre getting calls from headhunters daily. I estimate the current "real" rate here at at least 25%.

I remember a few months ago seeing a line of about 70 young women very close to my apt that were clearly waiting for an interview at a small office there (not a recruiting agency) quite possibly vying for one open secretary position. Thats not 13%.

Mpexy
02-25-06, 21:46
Social security recipients are not counted as employed to artificially lower the unemployment rate. (short of going to the extreme, which is possible but not probable, that even the divulged methodology of how INDEC counts is under such a government conspiracy that any number, high or low, is basically meaningless)

Unfortunately, divulged in that methodology basis is that Argentina does count recipients of handouts or other assisted living programs - such as the payments Argentina makes to help support parents (or single parent) with children. Even if the person is unemployed, the government considers taking those checks as similar to receiving a paycheck and therefore counts those people as "employed".

On the flip side, there is a large underground economy, in cash payments, which is not counted as employed. I doubt that balances each other out, but on the whole, neither do I believe 25% to be anywhere near an accurate figure. For sure based on positive growth since 2003 of around 9% per year in GDP there are at the least less unemployed now than in 2003 which at it's height was just capping 20%.

Short of the absurd statement that someone thinks they can get a view of macroeconomics simply by viewing one microeconomic indicator or sector, official statistics - while fudged and incorrect as they are - are roughly a decent baseline to start with.

El Perro
02-25-06, 22:36
[QUOTE=Moore]

"White lies, Damn lies, and Statistics"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Awhile back I saw a quote from a Brazilian economist-"Statistics are like bikinis, they show what is important, but hide what is essential".

Moore
02-25-06, 22:46
Official statistics - while fudged and incorrect as they are - are roughly a decent baseline to start with.Indeed they are. If you are accustomed to a US environment, add about 10% to the official Argentine figure for translation purposes. That is not an adjustment for conspiracy, but an adjustment for vastly different systems, practices, and conditions.

Stowe
02-26-06, 00:59
In the US are everyone probably knows, the government misleads about the unemployment number as well. They do not count those people who are no longer collecting unemployment because they are beyond the six months that unemployment pays out.

Also, they no longer count those who are "no longer actively looking for a job". How they can determine that is beyond me.

I would think that our unemployment number is closer to 50-75% higher than stated.

Stowe

Strad
02-26-06, 03:44
The other day I saw a young man who looked smart and educated, stood next to his shoe shine box near the subte. Obviously, he did not belong to that box but to earn his 2 pesos with no other choices for the moment. On the other hand, I know two different female friends, one lives on teaching foreigners spanish (30p an hour) the other manages properties for the Westerners. Both of them are owner of their own places, have enough for food, pay the bills but definitely no extra to spare for something luxury. My young lady neighbor has to get up at 7am, works at 3 different phamacies back home at 9pm, 6 days a week, so she can save "1000 peso a month to do some world traveling". I took her out for dinner once. I can't date her; she got no time for herself!

Well, this is the reality report, outside of the Club New Port.

Strad

Hunt99
02-26-06, 11:54
In the US are everyone probably knows, the government misleads about the unemployment number as well. They do not count those people who are no longer collecting unemployment because they are beyond the six months that unemployment pays out.

Also, they no longer count those who are "no longer actively looking for a job". How they can determine that is beyond me.The first part is incorrect. The second is accurate.

The reason is, if you don't want a job, you can't be said to be unemployed for economic reasons.

With differing national methodologies for measuring unemployment, the point is that the UI number is best used as a trend statistic - assuming politics doesn't cause the measurements to be altered (a more likely scenario in corrupt regimes such as the one in Argentina).

El Perro
03-01-06, 22:06
Here's a link to an article in the "New York Magazine" from last week. It describes "hip" New Yorkers who have moved to BA. Some of it seemed like bullshit to me, especially rent prices quoted. Interesting anyhow, especially for you young movers and shakers out there.

http://www.newyorkmagazine.com/guides/changeyourlife/16047/index.html

Moore
03-01-06, 23:09
Yes, I just saw once of these "hip":p New Yorkers walking in Recoleta. Pretty sad when the women of your most *sophisticated* city look like Walmart greeters from HQ in Arkansas, and are unexplainably arrogant to boot.

PS We all know you're following me Mpexy, lets see what obsessive insult you can come up with now.

Rock Harders
03-02-06, 00:04
Moore,

In a few weeks, I will again be "delivered" from New York to Buenos Aires, albeit this time semi-permanently. There are similarities between New York and Buenos Aires, except that in Bs. As. Everything is much cheaper, friendlier, the pussy is hotter, and the weather far superior. Anyway, I am not surprised that the female specimen you observed from New York looked like Arkansas shithole trash- while there are literally thousands of beautiful women in The City, they stay there and leech off whatever rich guy they are currently milking- just asking several of my ex-girlfriends! Buenos Aires is a much better place for a young guy to come and sink his teeth into than a young girl IMO.

Getting back to the article, I really think that in the next several years, the popularity of Buenos Aires is going to increase as tourist and semi-permanent expatriate destination. This is fine by me, as it will increase opportunities to make money for young guys like myself who have been in-country awhile and know the score.

Suerte,

Dirk Diggler

Moore
03-02-06, 00:13
Getting back to the article, I really think that in the next several years, the popularity of Buenos Aires is going to increase as tourist and semi-permanent expatriate destination. I don't. One simple reason, among others, that Ive mentioned before - distance. I'm not saying that the level of such expats/tourists may not increase, just that it will never be significant. Besides, has something here changed that would cause an influx of expats? BA has been BA for a long time. Very nice, but too big of a leap for most.

Rock Harders
03-02-06, 00:43
Moore-

You address something I was going to include in my previous post but I left it out- I concur that the sheer distance of Argentina from North America and Europe, will save it from being greatly altered or ruined, ala Costa Rica. I have heard that Costa Rica was 10-20 years ago, a relative paradise where everything was virtually "free" and you could do whatever you wanted, more or less. I know a guy from the Megatlon who used to reside in San Jose, Costa Rica but moved to Buenos Aires because he said crime and exploitation of foreigners in SJ and CR in general is getting out of control.

Also, the shadow of economic and political chaos, along with general ignorance of what kind of place Argentina is, will keep throngs of average NorteAmericanos from making this place Disneyland.

Suerte,

Dirk Diggler

Hi Dirk,

Amen, brother.

Thanks,

Jackson

Moore
03-02-06, 01:05
Dirk,

I find that many Europeans know very well what kind of place BA is. But its still too much of a leap in terms of distance, culture, and perceived risk. Sort of like Rio, which is a place that I'd never live in and would not recommend to a novice traveller.

The "distance" is something that makes and keeps BA great. I believe that BA will never be like Costa Rica unless concordes resume flying, become as common as Southwest 737s, and you can take an all-inclusive 3day blowout booze-cruise trip here from Cleveland for US$299. Don't see it happening.

Marak5
03-02-06, 02:48
Dirk and Moore.

Now that you two will be in the same city I recommend you get together and relieve some of this sexual tension that has been building on this site.

But reading this article really makes me kind of sick to my stomach. Is everyone from NYC THAT concerned with net worth, being a "big fish," financial deals, and their status in society? I can't believe how tacky it all sounds - "My net worth easily into the 7's." Who fucking cares? Money is nice but not everything. Seems like they are all compensating for something else if their lives revolved around that bullshit.

I wish everyone from NYC would stay home (sorry Dirk)

And the complaints are absurd.

One-ply toilet paper - who fucking cares?

Slow restaurant service - It's better. Not rushed out of the fucking restaurant so the server can make more money.

Strikes that shut down subways, airlines, or highways nearly once a week - only legitimate complaint.

"embargo on cool shit" like plasma TVs - Get a life outside of television.

Sickening.

Rock Harders
03-02-06, 03:35
Marak-

Why even bother mentioning the stupid shit from that article on this board, no member of the AP forum wrote that article, you should have just taken the useful points it offered like everyone else that read the article. The usefulness of the article, and the reason it was probably posted is that it shows that people other than the AP forum membership think Buenos Aires is a great place, and serves basically as positive reinforcement to why we all live and / or travel here.

Another thing- Do you really think I'd live in Buenos Aires if I cared about making alot of money and having flashy stuff to show off? If I did, wouldn't I surely stay in the NYC sphere, which is undoubtedly the world captial of making money?

Maybe you should go back to having emotional crisis over whether the prostitute you are paying for sex "really likes you" and wants to spend time with you, free of charge, and leave more interesting discussions to those who actually have the ability to critique and think properly.

Suerte,

Dirk Diggler

El Perro
03-02-06, 10:18
Dirk and Moore.

Now that you two will be in the same city I recommend you get together and relieve some of this sexual tension that has been building on this site.

But reading this article really makes me kind of sick to my stomach. Is everyone from NYC THAT concerned with net worth, being a "big fish," financial deals, and their status in society? I can't believe how tacky it all sounds - "My net worth easily into the 7's." Who fucking cares? Money is nice but not everything. Seems like they are all compensating for something else if their lives revolved around that bullshit.

I wish everyone from NYC would stay home (sorry Dirk)

And the complaints are absurd.

One-ply toilet paper - who fucking cares?

Slow restaurant service - It's better. Not rushed out of the fucking restaurant so the server can make more money.

Strikes that shut down subways, airlines, or highways nearly once a week - only legitimate complaint.

"embargo on cool shit" like plasma TVs - Get a life outside of television.

Sickening.Marak5,

Sorry Dirk was so mean to you. I am guessing he didn't like to be told to stay home or the allusion to "sexual tension". But what the fuck do I know? Huh? I thought I would weigh in on the complaint list:

1. I found some 2 ply toilet paper. Hal a fucking lu jah.

2. I would prefer waiter service somewhere in the middle of "sir, the cast of the Sopranos is here could you hurry up with the tiramasu", and (in castellano) "oh, you are still here"?

3. God bless the strikers! If the consumption addled lower class in the US got off their collective fat asses maybe we would see some much needed "boat rattling".

4. Yea, the "cool shit" is overrated, but it is better than a kick in the nuts.

That New York Magazine article was one of those pieces floating in a sea of hyperbole. Those people embellish the truth with one hand, while jacking off the travel industry with the other. IMHO.

Mojokpr
03-03-06, 03:49
I found the article pretty hilarious and sad at the same time. Seems like the people in the article are only concerned with being a "big fish", etc. The good news is that they will probably be gone shortly after they tire of things. People like that tend to move to the next "hot" thing pretty quicly, leaving everyone else alone after that. It was like that in Prague for a while.

Andres
03-03-06, 10:58
Here's a link to an article in the "New York Magazine" from last week. It describes "hip" New Yorkers who have moved to BA. Some of it seemed like bullshit to me, especially rent prices quoted. Interesting anyhow, especially for you young movers and shakers out there.

http://www.newyorkmagazine.com/guides/changeyourlife/16047/index.htmlI liked very much the article, although I find some observations.

- Many expats settling in BA and dealing with affluent people believe that they are getting mixed with "la crème de la crème" of Argentina, and it's not necessarily that. Maybe these Argentinos are upper-middle class, since the upper class doesn't necessarily live in Recoleta.

- Due to its proximity to universities, Barrio Norte isn't a Family-heavy neighborhood but quite the opposite (at least compared to many other BA quarters)

- "Susana Giménez, Argentina's surgically enhanced version of Oprah". LOL. That's funny.

- You can't have a more relaxing atmosphere than in NYC and at the same time get the same rush-rush service as in the Big Apple. No way. It doesn't fit culturally.

Andres

Marak5
03-03-06, 21:45
Marak-

Why even bother mentioning the stupid shit from that article on this board, no member of the AP forum wrote that article, you should have just taken the useful points it offered like everyone else that read the article. The usefulness of the article, and the reason it was probably posted is that it shows that people other than the AP forum membership think Buenos Aires is a great place, and serves basically as positive reinforcement to why we all live and / or travel here.

Another thing- Do you really think I'd live in Buenos Aires if I cared about making alot of money and having flashy stuff to show off? If I did, wouldn't I surely stay in the NYC sphere, which is undoubtedly the world captial of making money?

Maybe you should go back to having emotional crisis over whether the prostitute you are paying for sex "really likes you" and wants to spend time with you, free of charge, and leave more interesting discussions to those who actually have the ability to critique and think properly.

Suerte,

Dirk DigglerJeez and here I thought I was a bit emotionally unstable.

Marak5
03-03-06, 21:56
I found the article pretty hilarious and sad at the same time. Seems like the people in the article are only concerned with being a "big fish", etc. The good news is that they will probably be gone shortly after they tire of things. People like that tend to move to the next "hot" thing pretty quicly, leaving everyone else alone after that. It was like that in Prague for a while.I think I agree. I actually corresponded with someone from NYC on one of the other expat boards, and he was talking about how "hot" bs as was for the NYC crowd.

And Dirk, I'm not really offended by you. You posted that you basically had no money are looking for a job down there. You are not really in the group of people posting in this article - with a net worth of 1 million dollars (cash I guess? Or the ability to move seemlessly from a 60k a year job into the wine field and earn "more than the annual argentine salary." I guess in a way I am jealous as I don't have that freedom right now, but I also know that people with real money, a lot more than 1 million net worth, don't brag about it or certainly don't write articles about it on the internet. Totally new money attitude that I hate, and there is a lot of that where I live in the USA. But I really doubt that you are capable of attaining that level of wealth by your early 30s. Exactly how many execs on wall street have a degree in international relations from u of deleware?

Suerte,.

Marak

Moore
03-03-06, 22:17
I guess in a way I am jealous as I don't have that freedom right nowYou seem to have the freedom to travel down to BA. What do you do? Are you employed with tons of vacation? A student? Inbetween jobs? Other?

Rock Harders
03-04-06, 00:20
Marak5-

My only response to your idiocy is to suggest that you re-read all my previous posts and come to a realization of how way-off and stupid that last post is, if you have the mental capacity to do so.

Suerte,

Dirk Diggler

Marak5
03-04-06, 19:00
Marak5-

My only response to your idiocy is to suggest that you re-read all my previous posts and come to a realization of how way-off and stupid that last post is, if you have the mental capacity to do so.

Suerte,

Dirk DigglerDirk.

No thanks. I'm not that interested in getting in a week long pissing contest on the internet.

Suerte

ps I have read your posts and they read like verbal diarrhea.

Marak5
03-04-06, 20:14
EDITOR'S NOTE: This report was deleted in accordance with the Forum's Zero Tolerance policy regarding reports containing any personal information about another Forum Member.

Charlie Horse
03-04-06, 22:38
. Exactly how many execs on wall street have a degree in international relations from you of deleware?

Suerte,

MarakActually, you would be surprised how many wall street swingin dicks came out of a 2nd or 3rd tier University or College. Hell, some of my Asshole Wall Street buddies didn't either attend or graduate. These were kids of blue collar parents who wanted to get ahead and were hungry. They worked their butts off. If they burned out and want to live the good life in BA, more power to them.

Ps. It is spelled Delaware.:)