View Full Version : Travel to and from the USA--If true, this is disasterous.
Thursday, November 2, 2006
Vol. 8 No. 219
In Today's Letter:
Comment: Permission to Leave the U. S.
Today's comment is by Mark Nestmann, our Wealth Preservation & Tax Consultant and President of The Nestmann Group.
Dear A-Letter Reader:
Forget no-fly lists. If Uncle Sam gets its way, beginning on Jan. 14, 2007, we'll all be on no-fly lists, unless the government gives us permission to leave-or re-enter-the United States.
The U. S. Department of Homeland Security (HSA) has proposed that all airlines, cruise lines-even fishing boats-be required to obtain clearance for each passenger they propose taking into or out of the United States.
It doesn't matter if you have a U. S. Passport-a "travel document" that now, absent a court order to the contrary, gives you a virtually unqualified right to enter or leave the United States, any time you want. When the DHS system comes into effect next January, if the agency says "no" to a clearance request, or doesn't answer the request at all, you won't be permitted to enter-or leave-the United States.
Consider what might happen if you're a U. S. Passport holder on assignment in a country like Saudi Arabia. Your visa is about to expire, so you board your flight back to the United States. But wait! You can't get on, because you don't have permission from the HSA. Saudi immigration officials are on hand to escort you to a squalid detention center, where you and others who are now effectively "stateless persons" are detained, potentially indefinitely, until their immigration status is sorted out.
Why might the HSA deny you permission to leave-or enter-the United States? No one knows, because the entire clearance procedure would be an administrative determination made secretly, with no right of appeal. Naturally, the decision would be made without a warrant, without probable cause and without even any particular degree of suspicion. Basically, if the HSA decides it doesn't like you, you're a prisoner-either outside, or inside, the United States, whether or not you hold a U. S. Passport.
The U. S. Supreme Court has long recognized there is a constitutional right to travel internationally. Indeed, it has declared that the right to travel is "a virtually unconditional personal right." The United States has also signed treaties guaranteeing "freedom of travel." So if these regulations do go into effect, you can expect a lengthy court battle, both nationally and internationally.
Think this can't happen? Think again. It's ALREADY happening. Earlier this year, HSA forbade airlines from transporting an 18-year-old native-born U. S. Citizen, back to the United States. The prohibition lasted nearly six months until it was finally lifted a few weeks ago.
Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union are two countries in recent history that didn't allow their citizens to travel abroad without permission. If these regulations go into effect, you can add the United States to this list.
For more information on this proposed regulation, see http://hasbrouck.org/IDP/IDP-APIS-comments.pdf .
MARK NESTMANN, Wealth Preservation &
Tax Consultant on behalf of
The Sovereign Society
assetpro@nestmann.com
www.nestmann.com
Not allowed to come home for six mts. All-Right!
I have no idea if that's true or not (guess I don't have 5 minutes to google right now) HOWEVER, there is no question that we continue to inch along the road to facism, bit by bit.
Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union are two countries in recent history that didn't allow their citizens to travel abroad without permission. If these regulations go into effect, you can add the United States to this list. Oops - Godwin's Law (http://en.Wikipedia.Org/wiki/Godwin's_law) pokes up it's ugly head in the first post.
Guess this means I'm stuck here in Sex Prison. Or that the author of that article is full of shit. Definitely one of those two.
Jaimito Cartero
11-02-06, 18:47
I don't think I'd take this seriously. I can think of worse places to be stuck in than EZE. Newark being at the top of the list.
Or, maybe the US gov really is on a virulent criminal rampage. Habeas Corpus suspended, USARNORTH fully operational, and liberty and justice for all.
Read the other day that deadbeat dads are already barred from flying.
Habeas corpus is only suspended for non-citizens so there's nothing to worry about. Of course, most citizens don't carry proof of citizenship while in the US but I'm sure the feds will believe everyone when they claim to be a citizen. Right?
What? Me worry?
Habeas corpus is only suspended for non-citizens.
What? Me worry?Take a look at what Jonathan Turley, professor of constitutional law at George Washington University, has to say about that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igycXBseoAg&eurl
Anyone deemed to be an unlawful enemy combatant by a combatant status review tribunal can be jailed without trial and without evidence.
A tribunal does not conform to fundamentals of justice or due process of law. It's a cangaroo process.
Wakie wakie
Take a look at what Jonathan Turley, professor of constitutional law at George Washington University, has to say about that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igycXBseoAg&eurl
Anyone deemed to be an unlawful enemy combatant by a combatant status review tribunal can be jailed without trial and without evidence.
A tribunal does not conform to fundamentals of justice or due process of law. It's a cangaroo process.
Wakie wakieRighto Nemesis,
Jose Padilla, most likely more of a dumbass than a terrorist, has been in custody without trial for years now. He is an american citizen. Habeus corpus my ass.
Righto Nemesis,
Jose Padilla, most likely more of a dumbass than a terrorist, has been in custody without trial for years now. He is an american citizen. Habeus corpus my ass.Care to read his indictment? He'll get his trial.
If you are going to put yourself in Jose Padilla's shoes, I think the better lesson to draw is that you ought not join Al Qaeda, not some silly paranoid fantasy that "Bush and the Fascists are coming to get me." (Yes, they're coming to get you - if you really need coming for. Ask Osama.) But I'll take the wild leap and make the assumption that you guys aren't working with Al Qaeda, so sleep easy, boys. (And if by chance you are working with them, I hope they round you up and ship you off to Gitmo along with all the other poor terrorists... er, innocent men represented by the ACLU. ;))
And by the way, habeas corpus can be suspended in wartime. U.S. Const. Art. I, Sec. 9, Cl. 2. You guys really need to read the whole Constitution, not just selected parts.
And after you're done reading it, why don't you head off to some politics website to discuss? Certainly this isn't the best topic for discussion on a sex board, wouldn't you agree?
Righto Nemesis,
Jose Padilla, most likely more of a dumbass than a terrorist, has been in custody without trial for years now. He is an american citizen. Habeus corpus my ass.He was also subjected to torture as will other american citizens, now legally, in the future.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15499793/
All this does not bode well for air traveling mongers frequently exposed to homeland stupidity.
One has only to look at the history of Argentina for a good example of how bad government is always the greatest threat to any society.
Care to read his indictment? He'll get his trial.
If you are going to put yourself in Jose Padilla's shoes, I think the better lesson to draw is that you ought not join Al Qaeda, not some silly paranoid fantasy that "Bush and the Fascists are coming to get me." (Yes, they're coming to get you - if you really need coming for. Ask Osama. But I'll take the wild leap and make the assumption that you guys aren't working with Al Qaeda, so sleep easy, boys. (And if by chance you are working with them, I hope they round you up and ship you off to Gitmo along with all the other poor terrorists. Er, innocent men represented by the ACLU.;)
And by the way, habeas corpus can be suspended in wartime. U. S. Const. Art. I, Sec. 9, Cl. 2. You guys really need to read the whole Constitution, not just selected parts.
And after you're done reading it, why don't you head off to some politics website to discuss? Certainly this isn't the best topic for discussion on a sex board, wouldn't you agree?Would you not agree that a professor of law is better than you at assessing the dangers of these developments to our liberty and freedom?
It's pretty clear that the present anti terror laws are designed specifically to quell citizen dissent.
Would you not agree that a professor of law is better than you at assessing the dangers of these developments to our liberty and freedom?How do you know that I'm not a professor of law myself, skippy?
As I said, I'll be happy to continue to discuss this over on www.dailykos.com.
But not here.
How do you know that I'm not a professor of law myself, skippy?
As I said, I'll be happy to continue to discuss this over on www.dailykos.com.
But not here.Lots of political threads on AP.
Surprise! For the first time information appears on AP before getting published on infowars.com.
It amazes me how far the constitution has been undermined in just a few years.
Of course all these laws are totally illegal and as far as I can tell Bush is not even the elected Pres but came to power through vote fraud.
http://www.infowars.com/articles/ps/no_fly_list_new_law_no_fly_for_all_americans.htm
New Law: NO FLY FOR ALL AMERICANS!
The Truth Will Set You Free | November 6, 2006
Now: US Citizens to be Required ''Clearance'' to Leave USA International.
If Uncle Sam gets its way, beginning on Jan. 14, 2007, we'll all be on no-fly lists, unless the government gives us permission to leave-or re-enter-the United States.
The U. S. Department of Homeland Security (HSA) has proposed that all airlines, cruise lines-even fishing boats-be required to obtain clearance for each passenger they propose taking into or out of the United States.
It doesn't matter if you have a U. S. Passport - a "travel document" that now, absent a court order to the contrary, gives you a virtually unqualified right to enter or leave the United States, any time you want.
When the DHS system comes into effect next January, if the agency says "no" to a clearance request, or doesn't answer the request at all, you won't be permitted to enter-or leave-the United States.
Consider what might happen if you're a U. S. Passport holder on assignment in a country like Saudi Arabia. Your visa is about to expire, so you board your flight back to the United States.
But wait! You can't get on, because you don't have permission from the HSA. Saudi immigration officials are on hand to escort you to a squalid detention center, where you and others who are now effectively "stateless persons" are detained, potentially indefinitely, until their immigration status is sorted out.
Why might the HSA deny you permission to leave-or enter-the United States?
No one knows, because the entire clearance procedure would be an administrative determination made secretly, with no right of appeal.
Naturally, the decision would be made without a warrant, without probable cause and without even any particular degree of suspicion.
Basically, if the HSA decides it doesn't like you, you're a prisoner - either outside, or inside, the United States, whether or not you hold a U. S. Passport.
The U. S. Supreme Court has long recognized there is a constitutional right to travel internationally. Indeed, it has declared that the right to travel is "a virtually unconditional personal right." The United States has also signed treaties guaranteeing "freedom of travel."
So if these regulations do go into effect, you can expect a lengthy court battle, both nationally and internationally.
Think this can't happen? Think again.
It's ALREADY happening.
Earlier this year, HSA forbade airlines from transporting an 18-year-old a native-born U. S. Citizen, back to the United States. The prohibition lasted nearly six months until it was finally lifted a few weeks ago.
Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union are two countries in recent history that didn't allow their citizens to travel abroad without permission.
If these regulations go into effect, you can add the United States to this list. For more information on this proposed regulation, see http:/hasbrouck.org/IDP/IDP-APIS-comments.pdf
It's on the Internet! It must be true!
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061025022357AAkanIZ
Earlier this year, HSA forbade airlines from transporting an 18-year-old a native-born U. S. Citizen, back to the United States. The prohibition lasted nearly six months until it was finally lifted a few weeks ago. What Nemesis left out:
Hamid Hayat, a 23 year old from California was convicted of terrorism offenses in US District Court in April 2006. He was a member of Al Qaeda who attended terrorism training for two years in Pakistan, in about 2002-04. During the interrogation which followed his arrest, he implicated members of his family, including a younger cousin, as also being complicit in terrorist activity.
His nephew Jaber Ismail is Nemesis' "18 year old citizen" who was also on an extended trip to Pakistan for an "education" from 2002-06, the same time as his convicted-terrorist cousin who had just implicated him. When Ismail and his father, the brother of the convicted Al Qaeda terrorist, intended to return to California, the FBI wanted to know about their activities in Pakistan, including some details of Hamid's "education," but Mr. Ismail instead retained the ACLU and told the FBI to fuck off.
Since terrorism is apparently a family business (why couldn't they pick something beneficial, such as running 7-11s or driving taxis?), Jaber Ismail went onto the no-fly list until he agreed to be interviewed by the FBI. Incidentially, Jaber Ismail's great uncle was also convicted in US District Court of terrorism offenses. The "family business" line is no joke.
Details of the family business here (http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/462).
So, as I said in this silly-ass thread before, the lesson is not that the government is out to get regular people. The lesson is that if you want to join Al Qaeda, take terrorism training in Pakistan, or otherwise play games with national security, they will be out to get you. Appropriately so.
I knew it!
That explains the UFO that crashed into the Pentagon!
Thanks Hunt - You've awakened me to the threat just in time.
The sky is falling, the sky is falling !!!
What Nemesis left out:
Hamid Hayat, a 23 year old from California was convicted of terrorism offenses in US District Court in April 2006.Alex Jones did.
I suppose the deadbeat dads barred from flying right now have terror connections too? Let's hope for your sake they don't consider you a terrorist for looking at infowars material when Alex Jones is deemed to be one in the not too distant future.
The no fly list can be expanded to include tax debtors, like the one in Malaysia does, or mongers, if sexual tourism laws are expanded as proposed by some organizations etc etc. Just think, you might be arrested as a sexual terrorist! :)
Your friend Papa seems pretty alarmed about these developments which are incidentally public record and not just internet chatter.:)
Why do you think unrestricted travel is a constitutional right if it isn't a big deal?
Hope it won't take you until the day chicken little was right to see the writing on the wall.
Hope it won't take you until the day chicken little was right to see the writing on the wall.Chicken little wasn't worried about graduates of Al Qaeda Terrorist Training Schools being unable to fly on AirTran. And neither am I.
Do you have some sex stuff to talk about Nemesis? Because this is a sex board, not a paranoid political conspiracy board.
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