PDA

View Full Version : Pros-Cons of Apartment Ownership From Experience



Member #1036
02-20-07, 14:24
I promised a report on my experience of apartment ownership after my deal is done. Well, the deal is closed the money is in the bank.

I got a lot of help from people on this board as far as mongering and other things are concerned but as far as property ownership, I got a lot of misinformation from supposedly experts on here. I try to give an overall description of what I did and you guys can pm for any info that you want to ask me and I will give you my thoughts from EXPERIENCE since I have done the whole purchase and sale process to completion.

I was interested about a couple years ago in investing in an apt in BA as I frequented here many times and naturally enjoyed it. At that time Saint was starting his biz and I bit into it and paid him $400 us to find an apartment for me. After searching for me for about 2 mos or so he finds one apartment in Recoleta which says is a penthouse as it is on the top floor. He sends me pics and I say ok what the hell it looks good and he tells me it doesn't need much work but just painting. He quotes me some figure that honestly I don't remember but seemed high to me.

I am a commercial real estate broker in Los Angeles for about 30 years so I know real estate. (at least in the US) but not in BA. Anyways, I send Saint the deposit and then I send him about 30% down so this secures the building for me and the seller and make arrangements to go see the place. My friend and I go there and I'm shocked to see what a piece of shit this place is. Now I do fixer uppers in the states once in a while but Saint's idea of a little work is a lot different than my perception as I have more experience than him at this point. I see all kind of potential problems but what can I do but ask questions. There is an open air space to the top floor roof balcony that is open to everyone and I ask is this legal. Naturally the owner says oh yes as here is the paperwork. Well the paperwork is ony an application and not an approval.

Now Saint is only a go between with myself and the piece of shit company Reynold Properties. I asked them about legal aspects and they are completely worthless and are vague about everything. Anyways, in the meantime the doorman is telling me the owner has many problems with the building and that she has done illegal things. Now everyone is lying about eveything and who knows whos telling the truth. Long story short I naturally close the deal. According to Saint it is the buyers responsibilities to pay the 2 1-2 % commission to the broker. Later I found out it is not set in stone and anyone can negotiate the commission.

At this point I agree, I am stupid and should have bailed as usually my gut is always right on real estate deals. At the time, cash was needed to close the deal. Now Saint promised me that don't worry we wll have an armed guard escort you to the closing. I'm carrying around with me $40k and I'm not comfortable. I am counting on Saint to take care of me as he is not big time yet and is trying to build his company. I feeling really insecure when he tells me the day before the closing he doesn't have time for me and go with the brokers. Plus there are no armed guards for me. Just walk 4 blocks and nobody will bother you. This is bullshit and bad business anyway you look at it and I would never do this to a client. If Saint reads this, keeping your word is something that shouldn't be special so that doesn't make you speical but how you treat clients is what makes a good business person.

Just to let everyone know that even till today, I have yet met the mysterious Saint. After writing my bad experience on here, Saint pm and told me he would buy the apartment as promised if I wasn't happy with it. And yes he did perform as promised but the way he handled me from the beginning is bad business and how could I do business and trust anyone who doesn't even have the time to meet me face to face. I went to his office before the closing of my deal last week and he was sitting in his office and didn't even have the courtesy to step out for one second to greet me and tells his secretary to relay info to me. BAD ETIQUETTE, Saint.

Now my experience after I purchased, was horrendous. Trying to find someone to manage your apartment is impossible. I went through 2 or 3 agencies and they have excuses on why they can't handle it and says you have to do this and that to rent it. After I saw the apartment I'm renting today from BYTargentina, my apartment is 10 times better and was more than ready to rent. Anyways, I have the building threatening me to fix the apartment to the original condition which means closing off the balcony and a bunch of other stuff. They then tell me that there is plumbing and roofing damage that has to be paid for by me because the other owner did not pay.

Well, before I closed my deal last week the Esc. does a check with the building adm and sees if any outstanding bills are there. Well they come up with a bill of $400 or so which I have to pay. What happened to the responsibility of the previous owner when I purchased the building. I was made responsibile for the seller and had to pay her costs. Get the picture. Its alway stick it to the foreigner as they have money. Saint tells me you should have fought it. Hell I hired an attorney and she says you have to fix it. Its easy to say you could fight it, but if you are not there you cannot.

This goes on for 1 1-2 years. Everytime I turn around they are blaming the construction causing roof leaks, plumbing leaks, painting problems etc. Everyone tells me you can't do anything.

Finally, El Flaco on this board calls me and tells me he can rent my apt and take care of it for me. But he tells me you apartment is too ugly and furniture is no good. My furniture is modern and was purchased by an interior decorator that I hired that has apartment in magazines she designed so Flaco is full of shit. All he does is complain that my apt needs this and that and its ugly. I'm stuck as I don't have anyone else to manage it. He rented it 1 time for $300 a month to a friend of his. Now I just went to the apartment last week and supposedly, that was the only time it was rented but the furniture and everything looked lived in for longer than a month.

Anyways, I know Flaco will pop off something about this and that but I could give a flying shit. When Saint said he would buy the apt back he sends an architect over to my apt and there is a guy staying there. Flaco says oh he is just waiting for someone to comeback from the store. What a fucking bullshit liar. The guy admitted he only stayed there sometimes.

Oh yeah, Flaco where is my DVD player?

Saint from here does come through as promised. He does have a very efficient team and they do a good job. If he had this team when I purchased I think I would have been ok but unfortunately, I was a guinea pig for his business venture. As far as the selling portion, there are costs that you need to know about. I asked around about property taxes with some of you that actually own property and you told me there wasn't any. Well, please be aware that there is a 1 1-2% tax per year on the value of your apartment and if you don't pay it, when yo go to sell you will be thoroughly surprised. Keep in mind it will cost you $750 us for an accountant to do the figures to pay the tax. Now I don't know if that is standard but that is what Saint and his accountant charged me for each year. Saint picked up half the tab for one of the years. Also closing costs on selling, there is about $500 us charge to do the closing in the bank or office that Saint didn't know about. Other closing cost totaled about $2,700 which included taxes and acct fees.

I know I jumped all over but I think everyone got the jeist of this and can pm for any specific info.

My suggestion is don't buy here as no one is dependable and lots of people lie and take advantage of foreigners. You should live here if you are going to buy and do not leave it to anyone else even family or friends cuz if something happens you will not find anyone to replace them easily.

Exon123
02-20-07, 15:47
Thank You for your report Member #1036

A number of us have waited a long time to hear your remarks on apartment buying & selling in Buenos Aires.

I think your comment is the real bottom line.

"Don't Buy Unless You Live Their"

Real Estate in Buenos Aires has no "liquidaty", Inflation is rampant, the government is "Questionable" and once you're in how do you get out?

I'll take my money and invest it here in the USA, take the income and pay rent in Argentina. Maybe I'll "fuck up" by doing so, maybe I could make more money by buying in Argentina. But in the long run I'll sleep better by knowing my money is safe here in the USA even if I leave a little money on the table in doing so.

As I've stated before, "It doesn't take any brains to spend money"

I think its a better option to sign a long term lease with an apartment owner, say two years with an option to renew, than to buy. Lay all your cards on the table and ask for the option to sublease, possibly you can pick up some of the expenses that way while your out of town.

Remembering that the interest income from the $100 grand or so you've spent buying the apartment is going to pay you 6 or 7 grand a year invested in corporate bonds, (as an example) its not going to cost you that much extra to rent rather than buy. And again you have the option of a little sublease money.

So suppose you rent a place for $600 USD per month, $7,200 per year. Next you spend $5,000 USD buying shit to furnish the place. Plus the expense's run $200 USD per month. OK what are your real out of pocket costs? About $10,000 USD for two years, or a little over $400 per month.

You're not worried about any closing costs, tax's, building maintance or other bull shit. In two years you should be able to pick up your out of pocket costs in subleasing and your 100 grand is safe paying the rent with the debt service. Yea you lose the potentual appreciation of the apartment, so what, we all know to have to pay to play anyway.

Exon

Lunico
02-20-07, 17:06
This has to be the single most honest, succint, and useful posting on the buying / selling of RE in BA I've read on this board. Thanks 1036, you likely saved me a bundle.

Nemesis
02-20-07, 17:09
Real Estate in Buenos Aires has no "liquidaty", Inflation is rampand, the government is "Questionable" and once your in how do you get out?

ExonIf inflation is rampant, then owning property is a hedge against it. Apartments are quoted in US dollars and are constantly increasing in value because of local inflation and foreign demand. The rate of exchange is fixed. Why could you not get out, and that at a profit?

I would agree with your other comments.

Exon123
02-20-07, 18:09
If inflation is rampant, then owning property is a hedge against it. Apartments are quoted in US dollars and are constantly increasing in value because of local inflation and foreign demand. The rate of exchange is fixed. Why could you not get out, and that at a profit?

I would agree with your other comments.Then you should "bet the ranch" and buy as many apartments as you can if you believe that nonsense.

But what if you woke up one day and the Argentine central bank revalued the peso, (just as one example) Suppose they took the peso, (pegged at an artificially low 3 to 1 to promote exports & toursim) and moved it up to say 1 1/2 to 1. Just what do you think that would due to your investment.

Not to mention your Mongering and everything else under the sun which we go down their for, such as dinning out, taxi's. Everything is 50% more except your investment.

Or suppose the next government, after "K" gets in bed with Chavez up in Venezuela. Now hows your investment doing?

Theres a "Zillion" things that can go wrong in South America and your exposed to it. Not a good bet.

Exon

BadMan
02-20-07, 18:35
Thanks for posting 1036,.

And I don't know this Flaco character but he sounds like a sneaky weasel. As far as your experience goes, GOD DAMN, sounds like everything that could go wrong did. To be honest though, it sounds like 90% of your problems were caused by your consulting firm and your escribano, who was most likely hired by your consultant. The consultants job is to secure your purchase by finding you a good property and making sure there is nothing wrong with it, and it is the escribanos job to make sure their are no leins or debts on said property. My consultants and escribano were very dilligent in that regard, sometimes more than I was. Also I bought a brand new apartment in a brand new building. So I didn't have to deal with any building code violations.

Sounds like you hired incompetent consultants, bad escribanos and dealt with dishonest sellers, YIKES. The one thing I can say, is you are right, don't invest big money in any country unless you are going to be able to monitor it. It is very hard to trust perfect strangers with your investment and sometimes they can end up being crooks as you found out.

I think whenever you invest in a foreign country, you are taking a big risk, and real estate is even riskier and those risk averse should definitely go into another kind of investment. What I can say from personal experience is sometimes, the biggest risks yield the biggest rewards. I think your comments about subleasing are very smart Ex and well thought out and I can't disagree with you there, but I don't think the sky is falling in SA. And even if it were, as a seasoned investor, you have to role with the punches.

Bad

LA Larry
02-20-07, 18:43
Member,

I read your report twice, before posting this, I am still unclear about something:

1) Did Mike repurchase your apartment as he promised?

&

2) After expenses and all the crap you went through, did you make money off the deal? (Was your sales price now higher than your purchase price when you bought it?)

3) Everyone has read about Argentina forcing gringos to keep money from sold apartments in a bank account for 1 year -- PLUS playing a capitial gains tax. Was this the case for you?

Thanks very much,

LA Larry

Nemesis
02-20-07, 18:49
Then you should "bet the ranch" and buy as many apartments as you can if you believe that nonsense.

But what if you woke up one day and the Argentine central bank revalued the peso, (just as one example) Suppose they took the peso, (pegged at an artificially low 3 to 1 to promote exports & toursim) and moved it up to say 1 1/2 to 1. Just what do you think that would due to your investment.

ExonI agree, but that is another story. Inflation does not prevent liquidation of Real Estate holdings but a shift in the exchange rate would. Anyone having bought RE here over the past five years can get out right now with a big profit.

If anything, inflation is putting market downward pressure on the exchange rate, albeit not sufficienty to justify the current artificially low rate of exchange.

I don't think the Argentine government will be reversing their position any time soon as this would devastate the local economy. If that happens, all of Argentina, and not just those with an investment in Real Estate will be totally fucked. It won't happen without very significant internationalist pressure.

SexMachine
02-20-07, 20:43
Member # 1036

I was very seriously thinking about buying an apartment in BA as early as next month. I can't thank you enough for opening my eyes to the realities of ARG. And probably all of SA.

SM

Jackson
02-20-07, 21:39
Greetings Member # 1036,

Now that you've sold your apartment, I'd like to know if the apartment I described in 362554 that was shown to me by El Flaco is in fact your previous apartment?

Thanks,

Jackson

Pete Puma
02-20-07, 23:38
#1036,

Thanks for posting that report. Not many are willing to talk about the problems they have with owning property. I buy and sell single family houses here in Las Vegas so I can understand the problems. Also about owning out of state or out of the country property. There is always a risk-reward to any investment and it is up the the person involved if it worth it to invest. Exon's point about the state of the country for me should always be considered. Today may look like yesterday, but may not look like tomorrow. Swings in currency are not uncommon. Thailand just strengthened against the US$ 42 to 35. Some think it will hurt tourism, time will tell. Good luck to all who take the plunge. As I said information is power. Thanks to all for the posts.

Puma

AllIWantIsLove
02-21-07, 12:12
I thank you too 1036 for a very helpful post.

Several posters have mentioned the risk / reward aspect of investing. It would seem to me that the risk of investing in RE as a foreigner is greater, more so if you are not residing here, but the potential reward is no greater.

Bob

Thomaso276
02-21-07, 13:19
Good post, sorry your investment experience was so negative. Here is the key phrase for all those who want to live or visit here:

"Its alway stick it to the foreigner as they have money"

I see it in all aspects of Arg. Life.

LA Larry
02-21-07, 13:35
But I don't see how helpful and deserving of thanks Member #1036 really is.

We're all smart men here. If you are going to buy a place without really understanding what you're getting into -- then you will invariably get screwed.

In the future, any who one want to buy an apartment should be prepared to do a boat load of research. Most of Member's #1036 problems comes from making a hasty and too uninformed decision. Yes, it sounds like he had a bad experience, but how many of this forum's board would have made the same mistakes he did?

I still maintain that you can buy a place down here and not have it turn into a fiasco.

Only buy a place that you love; the location, the lobby, the hallways, the views, the sunlight, the space, etc. (Member seemed lukewarm about the place he bought -- quite strange, actually to blame that on Mike. Once you saw the place, you should have said, "no, I want to see other apartments" Instead you bought.

If you are buying a place to rent out as a business BEWARE! Just check out how many furnished joints there are online -- you will be looking at many, many vacant weeks given all the competition.

So, I think that Member's expectations and actions were out of whack with how anyone should ever approach buying in a foreign country.

One can't hire a consultant to think for you. You still have to bring your own smarts / instincts to the table.

Buy a place in BA, furnish it, live in it, but don't expect to rent it. If you can (and you should be able to occasionally) that's gravy income. I also think that its no sure thing to presume that you are going to be able to sell it easily. You may well be able to. But I think purchasers here should be those who are looking for a longterm home away from home, with no concern over flipping it.

Just my two cents.

Daddy Rulz
02-21-07, 14:03
We're all smart men here.I are an idiot, speak for yourself buddy!

Exon123
02-21-07, 14:34
Good post, sorry your investment experience was so negative. Here is the key phrase for all those who want to live or visit here:

"Its alway stick it to the foreigner as they have money"

I see it in all aspects of Arg. Life.Member 1036 was lead down the "Prim Rose Path" by most of the people involved in his transaction, everyone benifited but him. Seems pretty cut and dried.

Investing is tough enough, but to do it in a foregin country that you don't speak the language or know the customs makes it that much more difficult.

Its obvious to me that Saint repurchased the property to salvage his reputation and "save face". Moreover he didn't due it without the prospects of making a profit.

Seems you can't even trust the Americans down their.

I'd be currious to know how much he lost on the deal.

Exon

Hunt99
02-21-07, 17:19
To save future readers time, I want to separate the wheat from the chaff in this thread:


I was interested about a couple years ago in investing in an apt in BA as I frequented here many times and naturally enjoyed it.

He quotes me some figure that honestly I don't remember but seemed high to me.

At this point I agree, I am stupid and should have bailed.

My suggestion is don't buy here as no one is dependable and lots of people lie and take advantage of foreigners.
Real Estate in Buenos Aires has no "liquidaty", Inflation is rampant, the government is "Questionable" and once you're in how do you get out?
Thanks 1036, you likely saved me a bundle.
I think whenever you invest in a foreign country, you are taking a big risk, and real estate is even riskier and those risk averse should definitely go into another kind of investment.
Member # 1036

I was very seriously thinking about buying an apartment in BA as early as next month. I can't thank you enough for opening my eyes to the realities of ARG.
Here is the key phrase for all those who want to live or visit here:

"Its alway stick it to the foreigner as they have money"

I see it in all aspects of Arg. Life.
If you are going to buy a place without really understanding what you're getting into -- then you will invariably get screwed.I just saved you future viewers a good fifteen minutes of time. Send your "thank you" checks to Capt Dave's charity. :D

Nemesis
02-21-07, 17:40
Don't make the mistake that Member 1036 made, relying on information obtained on this forum to make important investment or other vital decision related to Argentina.

This is a mongering forum, offering useful advice on the subject at hand, but it also contains a lot of, unreliable, and ill conceived ideas and information.

Geo Eye
02-21-07, 18:38
Hey member 1036,

I wish I could have met you earlier, I can tell you I almost made the same mistake. DO NOT TRUST THE ARGENTINE PEOPLE. They are liars and scam artist, (95% plus at least) They do this because the wheels are falling off thier economy. Here in Miami, whenever I go into a business that is argentine owners, I walk right out. Like I have stated before if it wasn't for the cheap sluts I would have no reason to go to Argentina.

Punter 127
02-21-07, 20:27
I hate be be cynical, but.Like it's any better in the DR!

Big Friendly
02-21-07, 20:29
I read somewhere recently that the government whats to raise the yearly taxes on real estate. They indicated that that the tax number you need to purchase the real estate is the way of tracking this tax. The article indicated that the rate would be raised to around 2.5% of the purchase price per year. The % tax rate was graduated with the rate higher for more expensive places.

Member #1036
02-21-07, 20:54
Greetings Member # 1036,

Now that you've sold your apartment, I'd like to know if the apartment I described in 362554 that was shown to me by El Flaco is in fact your previous apartment?

Thanks,

JacksonIt almost sounds like the piece of shit I bought but somethings don't jive such as the lr / br. It don't matter, its done with and Mike came through in promising to buy back the apartment which he did for another one of his clients which I hope he has better luck than I did.

Member #1036
02-21-07, 21:10
I posted this report as a guide or an aid to a bunch of mongers who I don't know or probably don't know but in my opinion is the purpose of the board to help each other.

You say my post is nothing to thankful for is exactly why I stopped posting long ago for ingrates like you who are know it alls and sit here and look to criticize others for making stupid mistakes which I admittedly did and man enough to admit. So what? What do I gain from it? Nothing.

My point is that this board has helped me in other ways and my way to contribute is put my ego and pride out there for idiots like you who think you know it all and only contribute to criticize.

If anything, it gave me an excuse to come to BA so often and enjoy the fruits of this country. If I was putting every penny I had into investing in BA I could understand your criticism of me on my hasty decisions but you know nothing of me or my financial situations as to criticize what I do with my money. To you this could be a sizable invsstment with much care needed but to others it could piss away money that if works out great but if we lose it big fucking deal. We went into this deal with blinders but not necessarily risking my whole life savings. For me, it is my respect and ego that were offended in this transaction more than monetary as you mention.

If I flamed you. You deserved it so kiss my ass if you don't like it.


But I don't see how helpful and deserving of thanks Member #1036 really is.

We're all smart men here. If you are going to buy a place without really understanding what you're getting into -- then you will invariably get screwed.

In the future, any who one want to buy an apartment should be prepared to do a boat load of research. Most of Member's #1036 problems comes from making a hasty and too uninformed decision. Yes, it sounds like he had a bad experience, but how many of this forum's board would have made the same mistakes he did?

I still maintain that you can buy a place down here and not have it turn into a fiasco.

Only buy a place that you love; the location, the lobby, the hallways, the views, the sunlight, the space, etc. (Member seemed lukewarm about the place he bought -- quite strange, actually to blame that on Mike. Once you saw the place, you should have said, "no, I want to see other apartments" Instead you bought.

If you are buying a place to rent out as a business BEWARE! Just check out how many furnished joints there are online -- you will be looking at many, many vacant weeks given all the competition.

So, I think that Member's expectations and actions were out of whack with how anyone should ever approach buying in a foreign country.

One can't hire a consultant to think for you. You still have to bring your own smarts / instincts to the table.

Buy a place in BA, furnish it, live in it, but don't expect to rent it. If you can (and you should be able to occasionally) that's gravy income. I also think that its no sure thing to presume that you are going to be able to sell it easily. You may well be able to. But I think purchasers here should be those who are looking for a longterm home away from home, with no concern over flipping it.

Just my two cents.

LA Larry
02-21-07, 22:03
in your rambling, unclear post, you should get down on your knees and thank the guy for bailing you out of your aparment.

The first time you slandered him, I stayed quiet, figuring what good would it do to respond to some guy who got in over his head in a unwise real estate deal and was bummed out about it.

But really man, your post should have been ---

I wanted to buy an apartment in BA. I did, I couldn't rent it out and luckily, the guy who consulted with me on the sale was big enough (for whatever his reasons) to make my life a hell of lot easier and buy it back from me.

I've never met Mike, so I don't have any reason to defend him. And I know a lot mongers like to take shots at him because he's been accused of being arrogant.

But, the guy came through for you. You shouldn't quible about him not meeting you in his office (I would avoid a guy who slanders people in forums also)

In my book, you should learn a little discretion. And little gratitude.

(Interestingly enough, you haven't answered the question about.

Your apartment sale price -- did you lose money on the deal?

I bet you made a profit after all of your slander as well)

===========================================

Hi LA Larry,

Not that I wish to set myself up to get flamed, but as I understand it, the truth is not slander, regardless of how unpleasant the information may be.

Thanks,

Jackson

Saint
02-21-07, 23:07
There are two sides to every story. Obviously the poster is leaving out some details. Why he is blaming me I have no idea, especially after I saved him after his incessant whining and crying about this investment. As some of you will recall, he was whining about what a mistake he made claiming that it was the worst mistake of his life. Well, as soon as I saw that, I PM’ed him and offered to buy his property back.

This poster is involved in real estate (as his profession as he claims). He will know that no one “talks someone into buying something”. The poster made a conscious decision to buy a piece of real estate. It was HIS decision. The photos that I sent were accurate. Again, someone involved in real estate as a professional would understand real estate more than some random individual that has never purchased before.

The amount you can charge per night is obviously determined by how nice you make it and what amenities you add to it. That is common sense. I never claimed it “just need to be painted”. I provided this client with a sample rate of return spreadsheet based on certain assumptions like he would buy nice furniture.


This poster is trying to make some claim that some how he was talked into buying this property or forced into it. I never talked him into buying. I simply do as I have done on the over $50 million in real estate I have purchased in Buenos Aires – I presented him with an opportunity and he decided to purchase it. Nothing more and nothing less.

As he mentioned, I was a go between for him. Around about the time before we were going to close this poster calls me and tells me that he didn’t want to take my advice and get it done properly. Things like painting the apartment (which certainly needed it and I always told him that) he wanted to have a doorman with no experience in painting. Things like AC installation; he wanted his doorman to do it which voids the warranty. Nothing he wanted to do correctly. I was very annoyed at this and quickly knew I didn’t want to work with someone like this. I told him that I didn’t wish to manage the property. At this point we went our separate ways.

The fact that he had problems with the building and he decided to trust them and make changes that they claimed were the previous owners was his problem. Maybe he didn’t have competent lawyers. We get many requests from buildings to do certain things, our lawyer simply tells them that it’s not our fault and we won’t do it and to date, on tens of millions of dollars of purchases we have not had to make costly changes.

Yes, it’s true that there is a realtor’s commission typically of 3% of the purchase price. Good luck NOT paying a realtor’s commission. Where he is getting that this is many times negotiable is simple false. On residential real estate mostly it's 3%. In some hot areas it's 4%. It’s very rare to buy a good property directly with the owner. Not impossible. Possible but not too common. His claims of the doorman giving him information and being an ally I will explain later in this post what a con man his doorman is/was.

The main thing I think you should get out his post is that he “agreed to purchase it”. It was HIS decision. No one forced him nor did they put a gun to his head. HE made the conscious decision to invest here and purchase it.

As far as the armed guard, I told him we can help arrange it but after the nasty conversation with him to see that he wasn’t going to do things properly and was cutting corners with funds, I didn’t think he would spring for an armed guard. Also, It was the realtor’s job to set that up as he was closing in person. Looking back, I should have set that up for him and I will take fault for that. We simply ended our relationship at that point and didn’t speak again until I offered to help him and purchase his property from him (which he is totally ungrateful for and which really surprises me as LA Larry correctly pointed out).


The other key things in the poster’s post you should focus on is this “I am stupid and should have bailed as usually my gut is always right on real estate deals”. Yes, he was stupid if he didn’t feel comfortable and proceeded. Why he is blaming me I have no idea. I didn’t go to him for the closing because I had already ended my working relationship with him. Again, looking back maybe I should have gone to the closing with him but the realtor was there so really there was no need as I knew I would NOT be working with him in the future.

No, I have not met this poster (and actually glad after reading his ungrateful attitude). I fulfilled my promise to him. Even while others on the board like Exon claimed after I promised to buy it from him said I would never do it. I did. Not to “save face”. What do I have to save face for?? Certainly not for anyone on this board. When your company is being mentioned in magazines like the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, USA Today, London Sun Times, The Economist, investment magazines, TV, Radio, and you are experiencing high occupancy rates and companies are offering millions of dollars to buy your company, do you really think I need to "save face" for some horny guys on a message board?? Come on. Give me a break.

I did because it was a good investment. I personally own over u$s 1 million in real estate in Buenos Aires. You know what? I’m very happy and comfortable with my position here and continue to add to my portfolio as are other clients that took my advice. The u$s 400 that this poster paid was pocket change as others are paying u$s 4,000 for now.

The plain fact as I’ve said it before. Like me or hate me. I’ve been dead on target with the following sectors. (1) real estate (real estate has appreciated over 50% since I started buying and continues to go up); (2) the exchange rate….go back and read the posts and look back in 2002. I CORRECTLY called the rate staying between 2.75 – 3.25. Gee whiz, I was exactly correct. (3) the tourism #’s. I predicted the tourism would continue going up. The last time I checked, it keeps going up year after year. In fact, honestly, this poster must be the only possible person that bought 2 years ago and lost money on the deal! That is the plain facts of it.

Exon’s posts are dead wrong. I’m confident I know more about real estate than anyone on this board when it comes to Buenos Aires having been involved on over 400 transactions now including the purchase of some high end multi-million dollar buildings. I have bought and sold apartments for myself and clients. I personally have sold some apartments where I made 40% profits in less than 1 year. Exon’s claims of not being able to get out are just simply false and I would venture to guess he has never purchased nor sold here. The simple fact that the poster got out of this investment is proof of that fact. The fact that he sold lower than what I could turn around and flip higher is not really an issue here.

I did not meet this poster. It’s true that he came to my office and didn’t have an appointment and I had a phone call that I took so I didn’t come out to greet him. He was not a client. I was doing him a huge favor and he is acting like I owed him something which I certainly did NOT. He is probably the most ungrateful person I have ever seen in my life. Why in the world would I make some special effort to skip an important call for someone that has this sort of attitude.

Again, the important thing to note is I ended my business relationship with him years ago. I made the right call as I’ve always been a good judge of character. I knew he isn’t someone that I would want to work with and I’m fortunate that I can pick and chose who I want to work with. Again, the important things to note in his post is “my experience AFTER I purchased was horrendous”. AFTER. I did not talk to him after that day that I stopped working with him. It’s VERY plain to see he was over his head and many people took advantage of him.

First of all, you simply MUST have someone honest and dependable managing your property here. You can’t survive in a place like Buenos Aires without an honest and ethical company managing it. It’s one of the most corrupt places in the world. I always point this out and I actually turn down about 7-10 people per DAY that want me to manage their properties. I simply do NOT manage a property that I don’t buy myself or for my client. I buy on average 2-3 per WEEK.

His building got him to pay bills that a competent lawyer could have fought. The fact he didn’t know any of this is his own problem. The fact that he paid these expenses is his problem. I own many apartments here in Buenos Aires and manage over 100 that I purchased for clients. Buildings will always try to con you into something. These administrations are worse than the Mafia. You’d be surprised how they back down when you have your lawyer tell them you will fight them on it.

There were no liens or problems with the condo association or this apartment so I would guess that they saw that the owner is an absentee owner from the USA, doesn’t speak Spanish and conned him. Again, all his problems. There were no bills due when he bought it. It was a problem that occurred AFTER he bought it.



Again, it’s clear the building administration took advantage of him. Had he had a competent property manger with a good lawyer he could have fought this. So this takes us to the time when someone told me he was selling it a few months ago. Naturally I jumped at the chance to buy it back for what I think was actually just a few thousand dollars more than he paid for it. I PM’ed him as he correctly claims and I see that he says he wants $X dollar for it and I jump at it. I tell him that I will help him with it and really bailed him out.

I tell him that in order to purchase it, I will need to verify several things, verify he was properly paying his asset/property taxes each year and get an architect inspection as I noticed several changes from when I first bought it. I sent an architect to go inspect it. Imagine my surprise when the architect found someone living in the place. Apparently, El Flaco was managing the unit and without permission from the poster was letting someone use it. The person was startled at the architect there. We immediately notified the poster of this situation. We immediately took the time to change the locks for him. It was clear that the doorman knew about this situation and didn’t notify him. The doorman was paying his bills for Christ’s sake so he knew. Supposedly this was someone the poster trusted yet he let a complete stranger use his apartment. The kicker of it was this poster emailed El Flaco and El Flaco admits to leaving the country of Argentina some months ago and leaving some total stranger in charge!!! All without telling this poster. The poster was pretty shaken up that day and I'd ask him to take a step back in time to remember how it was and everything I did to help him.

Again, my staff took the time to go there several times and get a locksmith to change the lock. Around about this time, the poster tells me that I “saved him”. Thanks me enormously for everything I was doing for him. That’s why it’s so surprising to see his ungrateful post. I was expecting to see something like, “THANK GOD for Saint bailing me out of this!”. I have the original emails to show how thankful he was. It seems that El Flaco was letting someone use it without paying for it. The poster immediately had his management terminated and I told him as a favor, I’d have my staff paying his bills until we finished the process.

My staff for 2 months went and paid bills for him and didn’t charge him a fee to do this. Again, he makes no mention of this in his post.

My accountant discovers that the poster was not paying his annual asset/property taxes as required by law. To sell a property of course you must be up to date on ALL taxes. This is common sense. I’ve ALWAYS told my clients about this annual tax and it’s clearly on my website and always has been. The fact that he didn’t know the laws is his own fault. None of my other clients had this problem as we know the laws and pay their taxes. So, the tax preparation fees he is talking about are for the 2 years he didn’t pay the taxes. My staff arranged this and took care of it for him.

Not only that but for a while he wasn’t paying us money or sending my firm money to pay his bills. I floated him for quite a while. Even his property taxes, I paid the accountant for him and simply let him deduct it at the closing. He forgot to mention that too.

He is wrong in his post. The asset tax based on the value of the property is NOT 1.5% as he claims but 0.75% of all assets you own in Argentina. All of my clients have correctly paid this tax and none of them (including me) have had problems when they went to sell. I’ve sold several with no problems at all.

One thing I’ll totally agree with El Flaco is that the furniture was ugly and no good. That is true. If he used an interior decorator maybe she/he was blind. The furniture was all crap. El Flaco was spot on with that. It’s the reason why he probably couldn’t rent it (or the fact that someone else was living in it probably didn’t help either! Ha, ha).

I totally kept my word and really saved him. As a foreigner you must get a permit to sell. It’s a 2 month process. You must have an accountant prepare it and my accountant did it and I even offered to split the fee with this poster. Again, totally ungrateful of this poster after saving him. He couldn’t even get a realtor to list this property for him! Go back and read his original post whining about this last year and look at my post offering to buy it.

As far as I’m concerned, this poster should be thanking his lucky stars that I came along and took care of this. Had I not helped him, who knows…maybe El Flaco’s friend would be living in it still! When it comes down to it, plain and simple, I purchased it because it’s a good investment and I’ll make money with it.

I think you can do your research and see really nothing I called for Argentina has been wrong since 2002. Again, there are two sides to every story. I don’t wish this poster ill well and I actually wish him the best of luck as I do everyone out there.

I was out of town and I actually had my in-house accountant going to the closing as well as another employee. They accompanied him. The poster forgot to mention that although I was out of the country, I stayed in constant contact with my office to make sure everything went ok. The poster wasn’t comfortable in carrying around the money so he wanted u$s 50,000 of it (part of the total fee) wired to his account in the USA. I wired the u$s 50,000 from my personal account within 15 minutes of the closing which he can verify. Although I was on holiday out of the country I made it a point not to leave my house (I own other real estate in South America) until I made this wire.

Again, I’m surprised at the ungrateful behavior. History proves that I have been right on real estate here. All those that don’t have the stomache for it, as I mentioned many, many times. It’s not for you, stay investing in stocks and bonds, gold and oil. It’s not for everyone but those in the last 2 years that have purchased here have been very happy they have.

About the only thing the poster was accurate on was that I do have a VERY competent staff. I have the best staff probably in South America and I appreciate the poster for getting that part right. Thanks!

Best of luck to all.

Saint

BundaLover
02-22-07, 01:11
"He sends me pics and I say ok what the hell it looks good."

Let me understand this.

A) You have 30 years real estate experience in California.

Be) You authorize purchase and send 30% deposit for a place you did not inspect.

Then you have complications.

Anyway I'm glad you got out without anything horrible happening but I don't beleive you are the brightest bulb in the fixture. You're written report was EXCELLENT. Thank you!

Slick1
02-22-07, 02:44
Hi LA Larry,

Not that I wish to set myself up to get flamed, but as I understand it, the truth is not slander, regardless of how unpleasant the information may be.

Thanks,

Jackson[/blue]Actually Jackson the Truth is only a defense to slander. One still has to determine who is telling the truth. Saints version at least sounds plausible. But since we are talking about the written word that would not be slander anyway, it would be libel. Further, since everyone is using a fake name then neither slander or libel would apply. In reality it is just one disgruntled posters biased account of getting burned in the BA real estate scene. I never understood the part about buying an apartment he was unhappy with from the start. I'll have to agree with LA Larry, sans the part about slander.

Hunt99
02-22-07, 12:08
As a public service, I give you the relevant portions of the posts since yesterday:


Don't make the mistake that Member 1036 made, relying on information obtained on this forum to make important investment or other vital decision related to Argentina.

This is a mongering forum, offering useful advice on the subject at hand, but it also contains a lot of, unreliable, and ill conceived ideas and information.
DO NOT TRUST THE ARGENTINE PEOPLE. They are liars and scam artist, (95% plus at least) They do this because the wheels are falling off thier economy. Here in Miami, whenever I go into a business that is argentine owners, I walk right out. Like I have stated before if it wasn't for the cheap sluts I would have no reason to go to Argentina.
For me, it is my respect and ego that were offended in this transaction more than monetary as you mention.
But really man, your post should have been ---

I wanted to buy an apartment in BA. I did, I couldn't rent it out and luckily, the guy who consulted with me on the sale was big enough (for whatever his reasons) to make my life a hell of lot easier and buy it back from me.
I'm glad you got out without anything horrible happening but I don't beleive you are the brightest bulb in the fixture.


I never understood the part about buying an apartment he was unhappy with from the start.

Hunt99
02-22-07, 12:17
Saint's post deserves its own analysis.


I simply do as I have done on the over $50 million in real estate I have purchased in Buenos Aires.

I did because it was a good investment.

I personally own over u$s 1 million in real estate in Buenos Aires.

I'm very happy and comfortable with my position here and continue to add to my portfolio.

When your company is being mentioned in magazines like the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, USA Today, London Sun Times, The Economist, investment magazines, TV, Radio, and you are experiencing high occupancy rates and companies are offering millions of dollars to buy your company, do you really think I need to "save face"

The u$s 400 that this poster paid was pocket change as others are paying u$s 4,000 for now.

I know more about real estate than anyone on this board when it comes to Buenos Aires having been involved on over 400 transactions now including the purchase of some high end multi-million dollar buildings.

I have bought and sold apartments for myself and clients. I personally have sold some apartments where I made 40% profits in less than 1 year.

I knew I would NOT be working with him in the future.

I've been dead on target with the following sectors.

Real estate has appreciated over 50% since I started buying.

I was exactly correct.

I predicted the tourism would continue going up. The last time I checked, it keeps going up year after year.

The fact that he sold lower than what I could turn around and flip higher.

I've sold several with no problems at all.

I jumped at the chance to buy it back for what I think was actually just a few thousand dollars more than he paid for it.

This poster should be thanking his lucky stars that I came along and took care of this.

I paid the accountant for him.

Remember how it was and everything I did to help him.

I actually had my in-house accountant going to the closing.

Although I was on holiday out of the country.

I own other real estate in South America.

History proves that I have been right.

I made this wire.

I have the best staff probably in South America He forgot to add: "Scientists from the University of Buenos Aires have proven that I shit golden turds."

Courcheval
02-22-07, 14:33
Just an innocent question of somebody REALLY not interested in buying anything. Since the exchange rate with the dollar has been stable over those years and inflation is sky rocketing, is there any real capital gain in a 50% increase in value for somebody living in Argentina?

Punter 127
02-22-07, 14:35
Quote:

Originally Posted by Geo Eye.

DO NOT TRUST THE ARGENTINE PEOPLE. They are liars and scam artist, (95% plus at least) They do this because the wheels are falling off thier economy. Here in Miami, whenever I go into a business that is argentine owners, I walk right out. Like I have stated before if it wasn't for the cheap sluts I would have no reason to go to Argentina.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

He is a knowledgeable Miami businessman. On a recent visit to that area, I was astonished to discover that thousands of AR people live there. There are 2 AR newpapers! I can only speculate their reasons for leaving AR. One reason certainly must be to get their money out.I wonder why they didn't just take their money and go to the Dominican Republic, like you did.

Exon123
02-22-07, 18:19
A little math.

Saint states below.

"I personally own more than a million dollars US of Argentine real estate."

"My property has appreciated more than 50% since I started investing in 2002"

Since the Argentine market is an all cash market bought and sold in US dollars that means Saint, (or someone on his behalf) plopped down over a million cash to buy property in Buenos Aires.

Suppose You took a million bucks, (a figure everyone throws around, but no one seams to have when you really need a million) and went to buy real estate in Las Vegas with it. (Vegas is just one example of many growth markets in the USA)

OK, Its 2002 and I'm in the Vegas market, (as an example, there many, many others) with a million bucks burning a hole in my pocket. I buy 10 investor rental homes using leverage, (not available in Argentina, all cash remember) at a price of $250,000 dollars each. Plopping down an unbelieveable $100,000 each as a down payment with 6% mortgages.

I now own 2.5 million of investment property which is very conservatively leveraged 40% equity 60% leverage, I've got postive cash flow with those numbers.

Five years later the market has doubled, (which in fact did better than that) and I now own 5 million in investment property with 3.5 million in equity. Not a bad deal, but only made possible with the use of leverage not available in Argentina.

Being so "Smart" and "Spot On" with market predictions cost Saint 2.5 million dollars he "left on the table" had he invested his money in the USA. This same thing could have been done in most major American markets California, Arizona, Florida, New York, Boston, Utah, New Mexico, Nevada the list goes on and on. (2.5 milliom is a lot of fucking money Mongers)

Moreover, You can walk into any bank in the United States with 3.5 million in real estate equity and they'll bend over backwards trying to loan you money. Something you can't do in Argentina, again all cash in US dollars and no mortgages.

A statistical fact is 9 out of every 10 millionaires in the USA made their money in real estate, and the reason? The reason is leverage. You can take one dollar here and buy ten dollars worth of leverage with it. Not possible in Argentina. In fact the Argentines are much more interested in fucking you than making a good deal and their not going to loan you any peso's.

I know something about this having been a real estate developer and general contractor myself and yes I own rental properties. Futhermore I built the rental properties I own. I have thats called vertically integrated profits, thats to say I made a profit buying the land, a profit on the site work, a profit building the properties. All on borrowed money with the exception of hard money I spent for the land, which I bought "Right" I might add.

Its in Saints best interest to sell and promote real estate in Buenos Aires, for "Christ Sakes" thats the business hes in, what else would you expect. Its obvious he made a profit off member #1036 we just don't know how much?

I'm an Investor, thats what it say's on my tax return. I do this sorta of shit for a living and have for many, many years. Assets no matter what form they come in run in cycles. Up until 2002 it was the stock market, after the crash it was real estate, (based on 5% mortgages I might add) then Oil and commodities Gold, Silver and the like, based on a world wide economic boom. Now it seems to be the stock market again and its real estates trun in the barrel.

Any number of a "Zillion" things can happen to make an investment in Argentina a gamble with unexceptable risk's. See what a world wide ression would do to your deal as one example. A new government, more and more inflation, why the CockSuckers renigged on the worlds greatest debt default.

I'd rather own the 10 houses in Vegas, take the 27 1/2 precent tax deduction for depreciation and look for a 1031 tax exchange.

Exon

Jbrlovers
02-22-07, 19:22
Well stated Exon. You just gave me another thing to think about. Thanks.


A little math.

Saint states below.

"I personally own more than a million dollars US of Argentine real estate."

"My property has appreciated more than 50% since I started investing in 2002"

Since the Argentine market is an all cash market bought and sold in US dollars that means Saint, (or someone on his behalf) plopped down over a million cash to buy property in Buenos Aires.

Suppose You took a million bucks, (a figure everyone throws around, but no one seams to have when you really need a million) and went to buy real estate in Las Vegas with it. (Vegas is just one example of many growth markets in the USA)

OK, Its 2002 and I'm in the Vegas market, (as an example, there many, many others) with a million bucks burning a hole in my pocket. I buy 10 investor rental homes using leverage, (not available in Argentina, all cash remember) at a price of $250,000 dollars each. Plopping down an unbelieveable $100,000 each as a down payment with 6% mortgages.

I now own 2.5 million of investment property which is very conservatively leveraged 40% equity 60% leverage, I've got postive cash flow with those numbers.

Five years later the market has doubled, (which in fact did better than that) and I now own 5 million in investment property with 3.5 million in equity. Not a bad deal, but only made possible with the use of leverage not available in Argentina.

Being so "Smart" and "Spot On" with market predictions cost Saint 2.5 million dollars he "left on the table" had he invested his money in the USA. This same thing could have been done in most major American markets California, Arizona, Florida, New York, Boston, Utah, New Mexico, Nevada the list goes on and on. (2.5 milliom is a lot of fucking money Mongers)

Moreover, You can walk into any bank in the United States with 3.5 million in real estate equity and they'll bend over backwards trying to loan you money. Something you can't do in Argentina, again all cash in US dollars and no mortgages.

A statistical fact is 9 out of every 10 millionaires in the USA made their money in real estate, and the reason? The reason is leverage. You can take one dollar here and buy ten dollars worth of leverage with it. Not possible in Argentina. In fact the Argentines are much more interested in fucking you than making a good deal and their not going to loan you any peso's.

I know something about this having been a real estate developer and general contractor myself and yes I own rental properties. Futhermore I built the rental properties I own. I have thats called vertically integrated profits, thats to say I made a profit buying the land, a profit on the site work, a profit building the properties. All on borrowed money with the exception of hard money I spent for the land, which I bought "Right" I might add.

Its in Saints best interest to sell and promote real estate in Buenos Aires, for "Christ Sakes" thats the business hes in, what else would you expect. Its obvious he made a profit off member #1036 we just don't know how much?

I'm an Investor, thats what it say's on my tax return. I do this sorta of shit for a living and have for many, many years. Assets no matter what form they come in run in cycles. Up until 2002 it was the stock market, after the crash it was real estate, (based on 5% mortgages I might add) then Oil and commodities Gold, Silver and the like, based on a world wide economic boom. Now it seems to be the stock market again and its real estates trun in the barrel.

Any number of a "Zillion" things can happen to make an investment in Argentina a gamble with unexceptable risk's. See what a world wide ression would do to your deal as one example. A new government, more and more inflation, why the CockSuckers renigged on the worlds greatest debt default.

I'd rather own the 10 houses in Vegas, take the 27 1/2 precent tax deduction for depreciation and look for a 1031 tax exchange.

Exon

Daddy Rulz
02-22-07, 21:59
Keep making the money "Dad"

Where in the fuck is that pistol?

Nemesis
02-22-07, 22:29
I'd rather own the 10 houses in Vegas, take the 27 1/2 precent tax deduction for depreciation and look for a 1031 tax exchange.

ExonThe only problem, the over leveraged Real Estate market in the US is on the verge of collapse, and in fact is collapsing. A smart investor would get out NOW.

Lunico
02-22-07, 23:04
Single family homes are leveraged out but commercial property (remember we're talking one million cash US) will allow you to borrow 1.5 million on a 40% down 2.5 million dollar commercial residential. Depending on the market you like, AZ, NV, TX all have 40 unit properties averaging that cost. Now lets see One million in multi-units here or in BA. Lets see.

I always see the wisdom in Exon's post, xept for the time he wanted to visit the trannie park. That was just weird.

El Perro
02-22-07, 23:16
I always see the wisdom in Exon's post, xept for the time he wanted to visit the trannie park. That was just weird.Maybe he wanted to "leverage" a tranny.:)

Captain9026
02-22-07, 23:36
I see the logic of Exon's post as I am a landlord as well. I have my properties in the beach communities along the Santa Monica Bay in California. I have had them for many years and get $2500 a month for a 2 bedroom apt's with ocean views. I am in so far below current market value that if the market does pull back 20% or more I could care less. This is not a short term investment for me and I would not trade this security for double the amount of real estate in BA. The rental income is too secure.

Then on the other hand, I can take a little less than I paid for my last car and buy a place in a brand new building and rent it out for enough to cover the building fees at a minimum and still enjoy the capital appreciation that I think is going to continue. I can fly down and enjoy it whenever I want and have a great time. In the next few years I may split time and live down there 6 mos a year. It has its place in my portfolio at 0.5% and I am ok with that. I would also be happy to have Saint manage it. Even if it depreciates it wont be as bad as that damn car:-)

Regardless of what I do or anyone on this board will do or has done this type of investment is a choice that is made by the person who stands to benefit or lose (in some cases) and is not for everyone. It is great that we all have opinions but they are just that. Nothing I have heard in this thread will impact my decission to buy property or not buy property. It is my money and If I make it or break it I won't come to this forum and cry about it.

Yea Yea I know. I must crap gold turds also and never loose money. Bring on the flames.

BadMan
02-22-07, 23:49
Then on the other hand. I can take a little less than I paid for my last car and buy a place in a brand new building and rent it out for enough to cover the building fees at a minimum and still enjoy the capital appreciation that I think is going to continue. Can I ask what kind of car you drive? Last time I checked, the sq meter in BA is $1,500-$2000 US starting price, and the average apartment 50-70 sq meters. $80-$120k? Must be the new Masseratti, I envy you.

Other than that I agree, to each his own. My personal opinion is diversify. Own property in the US, EU, and SA.

Bad

Stowe
02-23-07, 01:40
Adding to Hunt.

Saint forgot to add that he pisses oil, walks on water, his shit doesn't stink and the Pope, Jesus and God all pray to him. The US currency should state "In Saint we Trust".

From his post he needs absolutely MUST live in a mansion with doors and halls 8 feet wide just to accommodate his huge head, universe size ego and 36 inch dick.

I hear his dick is so long he can fuck himself in his own ass.

Stowe

Stowe
02-23-07, 01:48
The only problem, the over leveraged Real Estate market in the US is on the verge of collapse, and in fact is collapsing. A smart investor would get out NOW.I would disagree. If the investor can cover the payments during this 'down' time, the fact that they would still own the property when the market changes would greatly benefit them as the values would appreciate again.

Historically, property increases in value so, as long as you can cover the mortgages, why sell them only to have to buy them again when it recovers. That is assuming you are long-term investor and not a short-termer. If you are a short-termer you should have sold them LAST year.

As an example: since 1972 property values in Northern California have only depreciated 4 or 5 years (until this current market situation) and Southern California experienced residential depreciated 6 or 7 years since 1972. They were hurt more in the early 90's due to the collapse of the aerospace industry.

Suerte,

Stowe

BundaLover
02-23-07, 05:59
It seems we have more then a few people on this board who are experienced RE investors. For those that are buying their first house in a foreign country that means we understand title, closing costs, US tax law, landlord-tenant relations, for those in SF and Santa Monica and Berkeley half a law degree due to rent control, maintence, finance requirments, property taxes, insurance, umbrella liability, commissions and sewer back-ups. See its easy to be a RE genius, it only takes about 20 years of dealing with it. Its much more fun to read about this taking place in Argentina with other peoples money. RE and pussy and good food this forum has it all!

Saint
02-23-07, 11:59
Exon & Others,

Here is the last thing I'll say about this. I only came on here to tell my side of the story.

Exon - No one is debating the fact that it's VERY difficult to put all cash down when buying here. As you correctly mentioned, it's 100% cash here. The thing that separates real estate investors here vs. Other places in the world is that these are serious investors down here not gamblers or spectulators as in the USA and other parts of the world. It's so easy for someone to get a mortgage in the USA that shouldn't be given a mortgage. There are so many people levereged to the hilt and on the verge of problems and bankrupcty there.

Do you really think areas like Las Vegas will keep going up at the levels it has been going?? If you think it will then you should keep buying. Do you really think real estate in London will keep going up forever? If you think yes then you should continue to buy. Things move in cycles which you correctly mentioned. There is a time to buy and a time to sell. No one is saying real estate in BA will go up forever. I'm only saying that I feel (along with many other people) that it's still undervalued and will experience further capital appreciation. It's all about cycles. There WILL be a time to sell and when it comes, you can bet I'll sell and move on to another area that is depressed (probably the USA). Also, remember most of the people locally still buying are NOT foreigners but locals. They have no where else to put their money. Real estate is the only safe play for them.

Many people truly don't understand their mortgages they got. Some are all interest, many are Adjustable Rate mortgages (ARM's) that they truly don't understand. Interest rates go up 1% and many people can't afford to make their payments.

I actually agree with SOME of what you wrote. Real estate investing in South America is NOT for everyone. In fact, I'd say it's not for 99.99% of the people on this board, IMHO. It's ALL cash here. No one is saying you can't make money in the USA real estate market. My only point was you are FALSELY making comments that aren't true here when you say "you can't get your money out". "You're stuck" "it's a bad investment". The fact that this poster got his money out is a proven fact that what you claimed is NOT true. In fact, within a few days of his claim to sell it for $X amount of money he got an offer (me) saying I would buy it and you know what? He got out.

Then your claims of me making money on the deal contradict your posts again. Again, no one is saying you can't make money in other parts of the world. They are only saying that money IS to be made here in real estate if you know what you are doing.

I've posted this before and I'll post it again. Real Estate investing in South America is NOT for everyone. In fact, it's NOT for most people. I do think it makes sense for many higher net worth individuals that want to diversify.

I actually agree with you Exon that most millionires make their money from real estate. You are 100% correct. It's how I made most of my fortune. You have been saying pretty much since 2002 that the "sky is falling" here in Argentina and history proves you have been exactly wrong. Real estate prices have boomed, unemployment rates have drastically been reduced, the economy is doing well and you are seeing more and more established reputable companies like Google opening offices here. There is a reason for that.

True, having to pay all cash hurts. Yes, there are advantages in the USA and other parts of the world with financing. As I correctly predicted in 2003, mortgages are coming into the market here. I work with many politicians and high level banking officers here in Argentina. Don't think that mortgages are going to stay out of the picture forever here. What do you think demand is going to do once they offer mortgages? Look at any place in the world where mortgages / financing / credit is offered. The demand of real estate shoots up and the prices shoot up. (It's part of thre reason you have such high valuations of property in most cities around the world) The people buying here in Argentina did so with 100% cash which insulates the market and makes it somewhat bubble proof.

Again, I'm NOT posting to try to persuade people to buy here. I'm just posting to say that most of your predictions over the past several years have been flat out wrong and ALL of mine for Argentina have been right.

You mention how you would rather have places in the USA. That's fine and dandy. Keep in mind I have some apartments I bought for u$s 100,000 and spent u$s 25,000 furnishing it and I NET over u$s 30,000 a year in cash flow. There are some places in California that you can't get that kind of rent on a million dollar property.

Look at many people speculating in real estate in the USA, London, Australia and you'll see more and more people are going upside down on the investment / rentals / etc.

Again, I'm NOT saying to invest here. Again, I'd say for 99.999% of the people on this forum it doesn't make sense. For others you will join the likes of George Soros, Ted Turner, Sultan of Brunei and other people that are investing here that have been making good returns. This forum should NOT be used for investing advice so don't take this post for more than it is--- Just countering Exon's post.

Again Exon. I'm not saying there isn't money to be made in the USA. I never did. I'm just saying some of your claims here have been false and have been false for years.

Best of luck to all.

Hunt99
02-23-07, 12:44
Abridged version of SAINT'S! latest magnum opus:


it's 100% cash here.

These are serious investors down here. [such as SAINT!-ed.]

I feel (along with many other people) that it's still undervalued and will experience further capital appreciation.

I'll sell and move on to another area that is depressed (probably the USA)

I'd say it's not for 99.99% of the people.

I would buy it.

It's how I made most of my fortune. [his fortune is so vast, SAINT! has stopped trying to count it-ed.]

I correctly predicted in 2003

I work with many politicians and high level banking officers here in Argentina. [SAINT! regularly plays golf with Nestor Kirchner -ed.]

100% cash.

Bubble proof [ROFLMAO!-ed.]

ALL of mine for Argentina have been right.

I have some apartments I bought for u$s 100,000

spent u$s 25,000 furnishing it

I NET over u$s 30,000 a year in cash flow.

a million dollar property. [Only one million? Why not ONE BILLION DOLLARS! -ed.]

you will join the likes of George Soros, Ted Turner, Sultan of Brunei [and their best friend SAINT!-ed.]

BadMan
02-23-07, 13:05
He makes a good argument in favor of property investment in BA. I would personaly prefer people thinking it's too risky, therefore I will deal with fewer competing dollars;)

I think Exon is correct, the sky will fall down very soon, the moon will be swallowed by the Atlantic and BA will be hit the hardest. Keep your money in Vegas. Trust me.

Bad

Captain9026
02-23-07, 17:51
However it's not Italian, it's German!

Big Friendly
02-23-07, 18:42
If I ever purchased here (I love to rent because of flexibility) I would get a sign-off from the building Condo Committee certifying the current owner of the apartment is in good standing and has no out-standing issues.

Thomaso276
02-23-07, 20:34
You will never get anyone here to sign off on someone elses positions, but the building expenses are sent out monthly and those who are behind (or possibly in litigation) are listed for all to see. This info is sent to owners so the seller can always provide a copy.

You might also be able to speak with the building management (they are listed on the expense report) to find out if there are any outstanding liens.

Most of these issues are supposed to be checked out by the escribano.

Bottom line is - Saint was a Saint for buying the place back. Try getting that kind of guarantee anywhere.

Hunt99
02-23-07, 21:30
SAINT! was a Saint for buying the place back. Try getting that kind of guarantee anywhere.SAINT! has so much money, it was just pocket change to him, Thomaso. Even better news, I thought I would announce that I have a privately-owned bridge linking Manhattan and Brooklyn that SAINT! is going to buy from me. It's an all-cash deal, no financing necessary with this captain of global finance. He's delivering the payment to me in a trunk full of cash, stopping by my Upper West Side co-op after he lands his private 747 at JFK airport this evening. The Cristal is on me tomorrow night at Scores. SAINT! would have joined us, but I understand he is shooting off to Namibia to go on a photo safari with Bill and Melinda Gates.

JackLuvsRack
02-23-07, 22:37
Really interesting discusson.

My take is there are so many ways and places to invest your money, you probably shouldn't invest here if you're not going to stay for some time, unless of course you are George Soros, Ted Turner or the Sultan of Brunei and have that kind of cash you can throw around and some adventurism. Most people I think on this forum are here for a week or two, spend a few grand, and then go back home to their lives in other places. That in my opinion doesn't warrant buying a place here as an investment. If you're planning on permanently living here, that might be different, but if you do your research, you can invest in so many good stocks other with instant liquidity. I think in the long term I can make more from good stocks, not to mention sell anytime I want. If you like Argentina that much, maybe invest in an Argentine or Latin American ETF or one from some other emerging market.

Just my 2 cents.

Saint & Hunt, I don't know either of you. But Hunt, your posts are hilarious and I couldn't stop laughing!

Jack.


SAINT! has so much money, it was just pocket change to him, Thomaso. Even better news, I thought I would announce that I have a privately-owned bridge linking Manhattan and Brooklyn that SAINT! is going to buy from me. It's an all-cash deal, no financing necessary with this captain of global finance. He's delivering the payment to me in a trunk full of cash, stopping by my Upper West Side co-op after he lands his private 747 at JFK airport this evening. The Cristal is on me tomorrow night at Scores. SAINT! would have joined us, but I understand he is shooting off to Namibia to go on a photo safari with Bill and Melinda Gates.

Capt Dave
02-23-07, 23:00
Even better news, I thought I would announce that I have a privately-owned bridge linking Manhattan and Brooklyn that SAINT! is going to buy from me. It's an all-cash deal, no financing necessary with this captain of global finance.Hey - just a goldurn minute!

That's MY bridge - I just bought it from Pelotudo Propiedades last week (I bought it right from Ray, the owner)

Sorry Bro!

David

Slick1
02-24-07, 00:05
"Saint & Hunt, I don't know either of you. But Hunt, your posts are hilarious and I couldn't stop laughing!"

Yeah Hunt's a real funny guy. Come back down to BA Hunt between 3/18- 3/25. I've been hoping to meet this guy. We'll hit some of those restaurants you rave about, drink a few bottles of that stuff you drink, what is it called again, wine or something like that. We'll tell a few courtroom stories. We'll put a roof on a Comedor with Capt. Dave. Come on down Hunt, I've been waiting to meet you.

Moore
02-24-07, 04:00
Also, remember most of the people locally still buying are NOT foreigners but locals. They have no where else to put their money. Real estate is the only safe play for them.

What do you think demand is going to do once they offer mortgages? Look at any place in the world where mortgages/financing/credit is offered?

For others you will join the likes of George Soros, Ted Turner, Sultan of Brunei and other people that are investing here that have been making good returns.The average salary of locals is what, 1,500 pesos/month? Not many have US$150,000 to plunk down on an apartment. Very few can even afford to move out of their parent's basement.

I used to work with a local guy in BsAs that made 7000 pesos/mo, which was probably like making US$100k/yr in USA. He couldn't qualify for a mortgage (IIRC 50% down, 7 year term, high interest) on a US$60k place way out in the sticks. 30something yo and continues living with parents.

So much for the 40 million locals that I assume would be the real driving force of the Argentine market. The ones that want to buy their own house emigrate.

Captain9026
02-24-07, 04:02
It is funny as long as everyone thinks its funny. What I don't think is funny is that we have all of these anonymous posters with their tough guy internet personas hiding behind the fact that no one can identify them or give a negative impact on there real identity.

Saint comes on this board and defends not his alias but his true identity and livelihood from attackers that if they had to provide their true identity and business info to post some of the rubbish I have heard would choose not to for fear of having thier reputations damaged.

I applaud Saint. He doesnt hide behind an alias as everyone knows who he is and where to find him yet he speaks up and defends his position. I think if 99% of you knew you could be identified and tracked down you wouldnt say half the crap you say. I chose to keep my Identity private because I will not make any individual attacks on any one person. I chose to attack some of the attitudes I see in what should be a friendly forum for the pursuit of fun and entertainment not destructive bashing.

BadMan
02-24-07, 04:43
No offense Captain,

And I agree with you sticking up for Saint, he seems to take alot of heat on this board, but he's a grown up and I am sure he can handle it, but internet annonimity is not really debatable. That is what the internet is all about. But I don't really understand what you are suggesting in regards to tracking people down? Are you suggesting people should be afraid to post what they really think for fear of as you put it " being tracked down "? None of this makes sense, and even less sense on this board. We all say what we want and on occasion we flame each other, so what? People do that. It's human nature.

Bad

I have been bashed continuously on this forum by different members, if I tracked down every single person who ever flamed or bashed me, I would have no time to sleep with beautiful women. Why waste my time. Only a really disturbed person would do or try to do something like that. I think in legal terms it's called stalking.

And are you saying if you ever get involved in a flame on this board that you will automatically post all your personal, business and other contact information on this forum?

Captain9026
02-24-07, 04:51
You know if someone really offended you and you could walk right into their office and take it up with them face to face there would be a much different tone. People talk a lot of crap on boards like this for no fear of getting their ass kicked. I think face to face many of these people would take a different tone.

Simple enough

BadMan
02-24-07, 05:06
You know what, I thought about it and you are right, I am now making a list at your suggestion.

That's it, Sidney you offended my honor and my countrymen, Tomorrow 12 o'clock behind Excedra. The winner gets a paid excursion to Madahos, the loser has to go to the "park" with Exon.

Bad

Pete Puma
02-24-07, 06:44
To say that 99% of the people here will change their tone if the conversation was face to face is a bit of a stretch. If you think you can read people that well then play in the El Alamo poker game. You should have no problem knowing what everyone is doing.

Hunt99
02-24-07, 11:54
"Saint & Hunt, I don't know either of you, but Hunt, your posts are hilarious and I couldn't stop laughing! "

Yeah Hunt's a real funny guy.come back down to BA Hunt between 3/18- 3/25. I've been hoping to meet this guy. We'll hit some of those restaurants you rave about, drink a few bottles of that stuff you drink, what is it called again, wine or something like that. We'll tell a few courtroom stories. We'll put a roof on a Comedor with Capt. Dave.come on down Hunt, I've been waiting to meet you. I am deeply sorry, but with last night's business deal with SAINT! everything in my life has turned around. So I won't be able to join you.

And how terrific last night was! After concluding our real estate deal, SAINT! invited me to fly with him on his private 747 to Monte Carlo. We arrived a few hours later. We played bacarat with Jacques Chirac, a senior Prince of the Saudi monarchy, and the aforementioned Bill and Melinda Gates. Some piker named Warren Buffett was recruited to serve us our drinks and to explain to us those old-fashioned silly ideas about investing. How 20th century that old fossil is!

SAINT! introduced me to Karolina Kurkova, and he was so kind to describe me in the most flattering terms, so this hot babe was all over my bones last night. Really, I couldn't keep proper track of my cards, and that Saudi prince took me for a hundred thousand dollars in thirty minutes. Oh well, it's only money.

Anyway, for dinner Emeril Lagasse served us some wonderful stuff, I don't know how to pronounce half of what we ate, but SAINT! sure can, so you'll have to ask him. After dinner we stepped outside to have a smoke (damn smoke-free laws have been extended to Monte Carlo). We were accosted by some Gypsy children who looked exceptionally tattered and poor. Much to my amazement I learned that SAINT! speaks fluent Roma. He chatted with these young rascals in their own language, gave them pearls of wisdom including a tip on an apartment building for sale in San Telmo which they can turn a tidy profit on if they buy it. He then discreetly put a big wad of cash into the hand of one, and shooed them away.

As for your kind offer Slick1, as I was saying, I would love to come visit you in late March, but SAINT! is taking me with him to Davos, where he has been asked to give a private lecture to the leaders of the Federal Reserve, the European Central Bank, the Bank of England, the International Monetary Fund, and the World Bank. He has been approached by these institutions to consult on how to avoid a collapse of the international banking system due to excessive real estate speculation. As the world's leading authority on real estate, SAINT! was the obvious choice. Alan Greenspan was a distant second. Also, keep this under your hat, but a little birdie last night told me that they may acclaim SAINT! the head of a new Worldwide Central Bank, but don't say anything, let's leave the surprise for the end of next month.

OK boys, I am back in Manhattan this evening. As I said, the Cristal is on me at Scores. SAINT! has jetted off to Punta Del Este and is scheduled to consult with Nestor Kirchner this evening. I understand that K has offered to step aside and to nominate SAINT! as Peronist nominee for President this year. Of course, it would be a giant step down in prestige for our friend, so SAINT! has to figure a way to let him down gently.

BadMan
02-24-07, 13:02
Sidney? Are you smoking crack, I know you have run away to the Dominican Republic in hopes of avoiding my wrath (another joke asshole) And NO, I have never flamed without being bashed first.

Bad

PS, you are safe, I would never hit a granny ;)

Captain9026
02-24-07, 18:44
I don't think 99% is a stretch. I am sure at one time or another all of us have said something on one board or another we probably would not have said to someones face purely because it would not be appropriate. In the instance when I made my mistake I learned a valuable lesson and decided I would not say anything on a message board that I would not say face to face. I can promise you will never see me name calling or making fun of anyone on this board as that is not how I conduct myself in public and I will not compromise my standards or behavior just because my identity is hidden.

Exon123
02-24-07, 19:07
Now, Now boy's don't be naughty and nasty to one another.

The subject is just how foolish it is to expose large amouts of captial in Argentina. The market has no liquidty, corruption is rampant, inflation unless stopped will make it undesirable to live or vacation their, You can't get a mortgage because they'd have to charge 20% or more just to keep up with inflation. Thats the reason its all cash and in USD no less.

Simply put "Your Fucked if You Buy Anything There"

Any good business man is going to look for the "Back Door" of any business deal before he goes threw the "Front Door" and commits to the deal. One must always maintain an "Exit Stratagy", I don't see one in Argentina.

And finally their are millions of investments one can make with large amounts of capital here in the USA that are much safer with better rates of returns than property in Argentina. Investing the money and using the income from it for rent is a much better stratagy. Your money is safe and you can walk away from a lease, you can't if you own the property, especially if you've put down all cash.

Exon

BadMan
02-24-07, 21:42
Ex,

I think we all know real estate in BA is severely undervalued. I do believe that prices will go up alot more before they start to go down. The place I bought here in BA would have cost me 500 US in any major city in Europe. I am not worried. Again, I am not investing my life savings here. The amount of investment here is small at this point and worse case scenario is I break even. No worries man, but thanks for the free advice.

Bad

Pete Puma
02-24-07, 23:44
I agree and disagree with you, to a certain point. I disagree with the foolish comment. There is are great deal of risk involved with Saint's investments, but there is less competition since there are not a lot of people with cash who want to invest that heavily in the BA market. One mans risk is another mans opportunity. Would I do it. No. I don't like investing where I don't live and I don't like condos. When I invested in Las Vegas I moved here. There were plenty of condos at that time that they were giving away. I am a west coast guy I like single family houses. Condos were great for cash flow, you could get your money back in 6-7 years even with an all cash deal. If Saint has that ROI then it is an interesting investment. You mentioned the down side, the up side is he can buy many properties in a big city, not an easy thing to do anymore. Fortune sometimes favors the brave. I wish him luck on his quest. PUMA

Exon123
02-25-07, 00:38
If thats how you feal you shoulda bought two or three places down their BadBoy.

Say, I've got a question for You.

Did You personally earn that money You just spent on a place down there? Or was it the proceeds of some Eastern European scam? Or maybe your Grand Father left it to you? I can't prove it but you didn't earn it.

I place a much higher value on my money than You do. You'd been much better off having signed a long term lease and invest the money using the income to pay rent.

Moreover, you give the Argentines another 4 years of inflation like we've all just wittnessed then look at what your property is worth. You'll be moving just like everyone else and when everyone starts listing their property see what its worth. The only market is foreign money, (we all admit Argentines can't afford property) When that foreign money starts pulling out, and it will, You hide and watch what that shits worth.

Its cheap for a reason

Exon

Saint
02-25-07, 01:44
First of all, Exon I appreciate you keeping the discussion intelligent (minus bashing or questioning Badboy on where his money came from). I never was bashing or slamming you. I was only posting FACTUAL posts. Everyone has their opinions and are entitled to it. It's one thing to post opinions, however I think even though you post opinions, you still have to stand up when your opinions are wrong or have been wrong. My only point with your posts (and always has been) is you have been posting for years (I believe since 2002) saying it's a mistake to buy here and it's a waste of money, going to lose money, can't get it out, yadda, yadda, yadda.

My only point is that you have been wrong since 2002. People HAVE been making money, selling their properties, paying 0% capital gains taxes on the sale when you buy as an individual (1.5% transfer tax when you sell that you can actually legally get deferred if you are using the proceeds to buy another property in Buenos Aires) and making excellent cash flow via rentals (much better than any sort of real estate in the USA) Again, I think for as much as people like Hunt99 want to bash, he and others simply can't deny (and may be a bit pissed) that I have been right on the call on 1) real estate; 2) the exchange rate 3) tourism rates / trends and 4) the economy since 2002.

Again, it's ok to have opinions. That is normal. You are keeping the conversation intelligent which is good. There is simply no need to bash anyone. I think anyone can agree ALL my posts since I started on this board I've NEVER bashed anyone, carried myself like a gentleman, respected people's privacy. NO ONE can deny that. I have over 800 posts and if you go back and do research you will find that I have traveled all over the world and offered helpful advice on many of my journeys. My posts don't bash anyone, they are not drivel and are meant to help people.

Exon - I'm NOT saying that it makes sense for everyone. I'm not even saying it makes sense to buy to live in down here. Another poster asked me if I have purchased with my own money. The answer is yes. As I mentioned, I purchased over u$s 1 million in properties in BA with my OWN money. Another u$s 50+ million with other client's money in the past 3 years. I'm continuing to buy and in fact I just bought another one (with my own money) last week in Palermo Soho in a new highrise that will be done in April 2007. I bought it with my money that is legal, I paid taxes on and again, my reputation is stellar and everything is above board.

Exon - I actually agree with one point of yours. It doesn't make sense to buy to live in here. That is true. Case in point, I live in an apartment that would cost me u$s 500,000 to purchase. I lease instead. I pay u$s 2,000 per month for an unfurnished apartment. I own many apartments in BA. You know what? I don't live in ANY of them. Why? With that u$s 500,000 I bought 3 apartments and I NET after all taxes, fees, expenses, utilties over u$s 8,000 per MONTH on them. It doesn't make sense to buy that apartment and live in it when I can make u$s 8,000 per month and take $2,000 and take it to pay the rent on my apartment and still have $6,000 free and clear in net cash flow. Also, keep in mind those properties that I purchased for u$s 500,000 I've received UNSOLICITED offers (I don't buy to flip) to purchase for up to 70% more than I paid for them so the capital appreciation has also gone up 70% since buying them. Some I have sold for VERY good profits but again, I didn't list them to sell. It was purchased by someone that actually stayed in them that really liked it and liked the business model so Yes, I did sell them and I'm still managing them so still making money with them.

Investing in South America and Argentina, as I mentioned is not for everyone but it makes sense for many and again, My only point Exon is that many of your posts were not factually correct. I do agree with your point if you don't live here in Buenos Aires or at the very least have an ethical, honest person / company managing it then it doesn't make sense. (Look what happened to the this original poster and his property management company!! That I agree with. As I said before, it won't make sense for 99.999% sense of the guys that read this forum I'm sure.

Pete Puma - There is risk in ANY investment as you know. I've never said there is no risk in investment in South America. Obviously every investment from gold, to oil, to stocks and even bonds have some sort of risk. You are exactly correct in your analysis that you posted. Even with cash deals that you can't leverage...it's still interesting. I have some apartments that I purchased in 2003 that will by paid off in full by the end of this year in rental income alone. That doesn't even count the capital appreciation on the property. Capital appreciation is icing on the cake but what I really like is the cash flow. The amount of monthly cash flow has been wonderful.

Also, I think you will find that even posters on the board that have bashed the Argentina economy on this and other boards have contacted me in the past to try to partner or work with my company in schemes to make millions of dollars per year. Obviously those that are financially savvy probably can figure out that my business model is extremely lucrative. I'm here in Chicago meeting in yet another meeting with some banks that want to buy my company. This is the 4th such meeting in the last year and I have 2 more meetings in New York next month. I'm not going to name names but these are VERY financially intelligent companies/banks that know a thing or two about investments.

I won't name names to protect anyone from being embarrased but I will say that one of the frequent bashers on the Argentina economy is at least one of the people that have approached me in the past about possible partnering schemes to make money together. Obviously this poster was exactly right as the companies and banks that have offered to purchase my company are trying to do the EXACT same thing that he proposed. It is interesting to note that I shot down the possibility of working with him when one time he accidentally slammed me to Exon in an email that he accidentally sent to me instead of Exon!!! Ha, ha. Too funny!

I TOTALLY agree that many of you are "tough guys" behind your screen alias and your anonymity. Many of you say things that you wouldn't say face to face or in public or in front of your business colleagues or your friends/family. That is Totally correct. I'm not saying 100% but I would totally agree with the poster with this point. Not only on this board but many other boards with screen names. I remember a few years ago before I moved to Argentina, I had a stalker that called my work (I was a Partner in a successful company in the USA before) and he was from one of these message boards. He for no good reason other than the fact as it turns out he was jealous of my life (which he later admitted). He was such a "tough guy" behind his emails to my company, his phone calls and threats.

I hired a private investigator and I ended up tracking him down (don't ask me how). This guy wasn't some "loser" but he was a very successful executive in the USA. He read one of these message boards and I had never met him. He never traveled but he wanted me to stop posting. It took 3 months but I tracked him down. The private detective found out where he worked, his wife's name, his kids, name, how much he made per year, the value of his house, his partner's names and numbers. So one day I called his house and I left a message to his house and told his wife that John "Saint" called. I think it freaked him out. Later, I left a message at his office with the same. I tracked him down to all the places he worked, the hotels he stayed at. He was traveling on business and I called him at his hotel one day. I told him that I was coming over there to confront him. I told him that maybe his wife would like to know what he has been doing. This is a totaly LOSER that was contacting my company for no reason.

This guy was crying and begging me not to do anything. He apologized and in the end, I didn't want any money. I only asked for 2 things. An apology and to tell me the reason why he did it. He did apologize and said he was just envious that I could travel to wherever I wanted to go and do the things I did. So in the end I do believe that people say things on these boards or act in a way that they would not in real life. After this incident I never met anyone from a message board again. Be careful on these boards. A lot of crazy people out there. If you are married or working for someone else that you might be embarrased by your association with this board then you shouldn't meet up at all. Trust me, there are DEFINITELY ways to find out who you people are. You may think you have anonymity but with time and money there ARE ways to find out your names, where you work, family, etc. I'm just posting this to say be careful as there are crazy people out there. I know, I experienced it.

PS. Hunt99 - Actually I was in Punta del Este LAST week in the house that I recently built enjoying it and the beach and closing some land deals there (as it turns out, my calls on Punta del Este were also correct). I didn't meet with Kirschner THAT trip but I HAVE met him in the past. I'm in Chicago right now and it's FREEZING and I WISH I was in Monte Carlo again (I loved it there my first trip) . Ha, ha. Cheers all.

Saint

Starfe
02-25-07, 02:10
The very first post is the same as the last post. Nothing really changes over time. What a shame.

Pete Puma
02-25-07, 03:31
About a 20% ROI with the cash flow not counting the appreciation. You can be free and clear in 5-6 years. Nice job. Reminds me of Las Vegas 10 years ago. PUMA

Moore
02-25-07, 04:16
People HAVE been making money, selling their properties, paying 0% capital gains taxes on the sale when you buy as an individual (1.5% transfer tax when you sell that you can actually legally get deferred if you are using the proceeds to buy another property in Buenos Aires) Do Americans not have to pay US income tax on all capital gains?

Hunt99
02-25-07, 11:06
Do Americans not have to pay US income tax on all capital gains?By law, American citizens are taxed on their worldwide income, where ever it is earned. Failure to declare and pay is a felony.

But to quote a certain real estate guru: "Taxes? Only the little people pay taxes."

Saint
02-25-07, 13:11
As I posted, I won't name names. The fact that you chose to post about this I'll comment to your post. You have several things wrong. Yes, I DID tell you that I did NOT want to commit the $250,000 to $500,000 at the time. That is absolutely true. I also told you that I was NOT interested. If you recall my exact words were, "I think there possibly MIGHT be a time in the future but I have NO interest now and I am comfortable and I know I can build the reputation better and just really comfortable with how things are". Yes, you did offer to provide the capital. But again, I had no interest then and honestly, I have no interest now. I've turned down all 4 offers. As I told you 1.5 years ago. I am comfortable with my current lifestyle and set up and again I'll say it hasn't nearly reached the potential yet and even when it did....I probably still wouldn't sell. Money isn't everything.

NO, your part about me contacting other companies is EXACTLY FALSE. I NEVER at any time contacted ANYONE. ALL 4 offers I received were unsolicited. I've never even once hinted to anyone that I wanted to sell, nor shopped my company at all. (The offers started coming in after my company was mentioned in the most respected financial magazine in the world).

I resent the fact that you are implying that I did. I never at ANY time broke the confidentially of our conversation and the fact that you decided to post yourself is your problem. I am not the one that broke confidentially. I was very surprised last year when I saw Exon posting about this and I was surprised when I saw your email to Exon, so it was you that broke the confidentiality of our conversation. It's also important to note that I was never interested and I think even you will agree to that. I NEVER at all expressed interest in it.

NO, I didn't distance you until you accidentally sent me an email that you MEANT to sent to Exon. It was at THAT time that I saw that you are the type of person that would talk about someone behind their back. I never raised the rent 30% for that property that you were in (that I no longer manage) You neglect to mention the fact that I gave you a huge discount so really when you claim 30% raise, while technically it is true, you neglect to mention you probably got a 30% discount to the posted prices. Demand steadily went up on the property and once the lease ended it just didn't make sense to offer that 30% discount. Also, it's not true that people stopped answering your calls and making repairs to your requests. That isn't true. You even have a post on here praising the quick service.

I'm not claiming to be some big time operator. I never did. As I told you 1.5 years ago. I'm very comfortable with my lifestyle and position. I didn't move to Argentina to get rich. No one would move to South America to get rich. Again, it's important to note that I NEVER at ANY time took anything you said. I'm happy being "small time". If I wanted to be "big time" I'd have accepted your offer back 1.5 years ago. You and I BOTH know I could have made millions of dollars with that. "Small time" is just fine with me.... :)

Also, not all the companies that are offering to buy mine are trying to do what you said. This latest one here in Chicago wants to do something similar. I'm NOT interested in selling as I told you before.

Anyway, I wish you no ill well at all and actually I hope you are doing well. I know you to be a gentleman. Really, the only problem I've ever had with you was the email you sent me accidentally. I'm just posting the facts as they are. Although I'm not interested in selling, I'll still accept the first class trip to the USA to hear the pitches.

Best of luck to you. Remember as I told you 1.5 years ago.... "Money isn't everything". In fact, sometimes it complicates your life. Making $5 +million a year honestly wouldn't change my lifestyle so there is not really a reason for me to complicate my life. I will NEVER be an employee again...

PS. Yes, Hunt99 is right. You must pay taxes as a US citizen. His quote is from Leona Helmsley who spent 18 months in jail for tax evasion.

Daddy Rulz
02-25-07, 15:48
By law, American citizens are taxed on their worldwide income, where ever it is earned. Failure to declare and pay is a felony.

But to quote a certain real estate guru: "Taxes? Only the little people pay taxes."There is some exemption for us little guys making less than 82K and not spending more than 30 days per year in Los EEUU no?

Hunt99
02-25-07, 16:24
There is some exemption for us little guys making less than 82K and not spending more than 30 days per year in Los EEUU no?I don't know the exact details, but last year's tax bill greatly diminished the favorable tax status formerly held by expatriates that you correctly remember. But no matter what the foreign income exclusion is, I believe you still have to file a return, even if your income falls below the limitation.

Hunt99
02-25-07, 16:26
I'm not claiming to be some big time operator.Perhaps the funniest thing I have seen on this site in a long time.

I'm all for you making money, SAINT!. but please don't piss on my leg and try to tell me it's raining. Except for a couple of us here whose brains have been addled by syphillis, we're not stupid.

Daddy Rulz
02-25-07, 16:46
Except for a couple of us here whose brains have been addled by syphillis, we're not stupid.Somebody called my name?

BadMan
02-25-07, 16:50
It seems obvious that this guy Saint is doing rather well in the BA real estate business, either through consulting fees, rental income, property appreciation or all of the above. I don't think everyone who invests in BA can hope for the same results. The main point seems to be that you CAN make money in BA real estate and many people do. How much is a different subject, that all depends on many varying factors.

Real estate investment is risky no matter where you do it, some people are willing to take that risk. There is no point in bashing people for choosing to invest.

Bad

Exon, You are correct about long term leases and the more I look into it the more I am liking that option. I do not agree with you on many other things, even if the BA real estate market hits a slump, I am in no hurry to sell, like I said everything that comes up must come down, the trick is to know when to get out, or at least make a profit on a few sales while holding on to other long term investments. Again I appreciate the free advice and the warning.

JengisKhan
02-25-07, 16:56
Without going into the debate too much, I'll just post my experience of buying an apartment here in BA. The process itself was a little tricky, but if you speak Spanish fluently its not too bad. Consult with as many sources as you can, because there is a lot of conflicting information out there.

I decided to buy a place because:

1) I live here. I would have bought a place if I were living in the States, so to me its just the same thing, only now I live in Argentina. Its better to own than to rent.

2) Apartments are affordable. Instead of taking out a mortgage, I was able to buy the apartment outright, without using all of my savings.

3) The real estate market is still pretty good, so there is a potential for making a profit. There are associated risks, but thats the case anywhere you buy. Here they are a bit higher, but I think, exaggerated by some forum members.

4) Its cheaper to renovate here than in the States. I was able to do some major work on my apartment and make it pretty impressive for only about U$3500.

5) For a learning experience. I've never owned before, so it has been an educational process which I don't regret.

For me it has been a really great experience. I haven't sold the apartment yet, and if I do, I do worry a bit about the legal issues that might arise, but I'm not planning on selling the apartment so its not a big deal for me. I'm hoping to keep the place for many years, even after I can't live in it anymore.

I think trying to "flip" properties here is probably very difficult because there are a lot of people doing it, and being a foreigner puts you at a disadvantage. Plus, the market has cooled off a bit, so the potential gain is limited.

Hunt99
02-25-07, 18:16
It seems obvious that this guy Saint is doing rather well in the BA real estate business, How is this obvious? Because he says so in the most egotistical terms possible? Badboy, I dearly want you to come invest with my firm. We had 250% returns for our clients last year. We turn work-a-day Joes into multi-millionaires overnight. Just give me your money and you will be wealthy just like all my other successful clients, such as Ted Turner, George Soros, and my special friend the Sultan of Brunei ("Sultie baby" to his close friends like me). Of course not everyone is capable of achieving these returns, and this kind of investing is inappropriate for 99% of you. But I know that all my clients never have to worry again about their financial security because my firm makes them rich.

How's that for proof of my success as an investment advisor, Badboy? Convincing enough? Send me a check and you can be the next millionaire I create.


Real estate investment is risky no matter where you do it, some people are willing to take that risk. But really, BB, real estate investing is one of the safest forms of investing there is - so long as you know what you're doing going in. Crunching numbers in advance is essential. But once you identify a good opportunity and are able to act on it with favorable terms, RE is predictable, steady, and just the opposite of picking stocks, trading currencies, or running a business which sells widgets in a wide open marketplace. In real estate you can use leverage of 80 or 90 percent to give you exponentially higher returns. (Of course, this leverage is not realistically possible in Argentina.) In real estate you will know almost precisely what your fixed and recurring costs are, as well as your income. Few businesses exist that have such predictability - and if you know your business, there's safety in such predictability.


There is no point in bashing people for choosing to invest.Nobody has bashed anybody in this thread, except perhaps for 1036 and SAINT! rehashing their bitterness. And to be honest 1036 brought his woes upon himself by getting involved in a deal which was extremely stupid and not thought out in advance. He admitted as much. I admire such admissions of stupidity in this thread much more than I do the bloated claims of stupendous success which we all know are a bunch of horseshit. Amusing horseshit indeed, but horseshit nevertheless.

BadMan
02-26-07, 00:43
But really, BB, real estate investing is one of the safest forms of investing there is - so long as you know what you're doing going in. Crunching numbers in advance is essential. But once you identify a good opportunity and are able to act on it with favorable terms, RE is predictable, steady, and just the opposite of picking stocks, trading currencies, or running a business which sells widgets in a wide open marketplace. In real estate you can use leverage of 80 or 90 percent to give you exponentially higher returns. (Of course, this leverage is not realistically possible in Argentina. In real estate you will know almost precisely what your fixed and recurring costs are, as well as your income. Few businesses exist that have such predictability - and if you know your business, there's safety in such predictability. Thank you Hunt, A very interesting and pretty accurate defense of real estate investing. But the whole part about predictability? I would go into it, but some real estate markets are anything but.

Bad

Hunt99
02-26-07, 11:34
Thank you Hunt, A very interesting and pretty accurate defense of real estate investing. But the whole part about predictability? I would go into it, but some real estate markets are anything but.

BadIt's generally only unpredictable if you are playing the "flipper" game, trying to buy and sell in short periods with the hope of making a quick profit off of price appreciation. That's not investing, BB, that's called "speculation." If you want to try that, go to the casino and put your money down on red or black.

Hunt99
02-26-07, 16:29
Anything you say Nostradamus. Next time I buy a property, I'll call you up and you can tell me EXACTLY how much it will be worth in 5-10 years. I am sure you will be able to predict everything that goes on in that country politically and economically. I mean predicting floods, earthquakes, wars, conflicts, military coups, fires, and huricanes is nothing for an Oracle like you. Is your last name Buffett by any chance?

But at this point we are being childish arguing over semantics. Our opinions differ.

BadWe're not arguing, or at least I'm not - and I haven't seen where our opinions differ at all, since I haven't seen you write anything which differs from what I've said.

Real estate is a predictable investment inasmuch as you can control the price you pay, have a reasonable expectation of the rental income you earn, and can know going in the tax and accounting benefits you can obtain. Floods, hurricanes, and fires are all insurable - again giving you predictable risks. Risks from wars and coups are controllable if you avoid real estate in localities at risk from these things.

No, you cannot predict what exact prices will be in ten years, but again you can forecast a net gain with reasonable assurance if you exercise due diligence by selecting properties in areas with population growth (i.e. avoid rural Kansas) effective governments (i.e. avoid Caracas) and positive social characteristics (i.e. avoid Baghdad) In addition, real estate tends to hold value in the face of inflation much better than any other investment.

Two factors are paramount - control the price you pay and select the property and locality with discernment. Secondarily, you must have excellent management available to run the property for you.

Stowe
02-27-07, 01:59
Money isn't everything.Boy is that funny coming from Saint. Literally, everything he posts is about how rich he is, how important he has become and how he socializes with the rich and powerful all due to his success.

He doesn't post about how nice the people of BA are or how great the weather is or the food or the great clubs. What he posts is how much money he has (supposedly) made, how many properties he has, how much revenue his company has (supposedly) generated.

Money isn't everything? It's your GOD, Saint!

Boy, that is probably the most hypocritical post ever made onto this forum.

Amazing.

Stowe

Moore
02-27-07, 02:06
In addition, real estate tends to hold value in the face of inflation much better than any other investment.According to a recent article by Ben Stein, real estate in one of the strongest markets, Southern California, has performed just so over the past 25 years - it barely kept up with inflation.

Breaking even maybe a great investment in places like Argentina but not USA.

Hunt99
02-27-07, 11:44
According to a recent article by Ben Stein, real estate in one of the strongest markets, Southern California, has performed just so over the past 25 years - it barely kept up with inflation.

Breaking even maybe a great investment in places like Argentina but not USA.Ben Stein's articles are posted every other Monday here:

http://finance.yahoo.com/expert/archive/yourlife/ben-stein/1

He's a good writer and a shrewd financial mind, and on every other Monday morning his column is one of the first things I read with my coffee.

His column from January 19 made the point not that real estate is a bad investment, but that for the long term, the stock market is better. I certainly agree with him. But let's do a small exercise where we consider buying investment real estate in a market where there is no price appreciation beyond inflation.

Let's say that in 2007 I buy piece of rental real estate for 100,000 dollars. I put 20% down, with an 80K mortgage at 6.5% for 30 years, which is $500 a month. Because I don't overpay, in 2007 I am able to charge rent equal to what my mortgage, taxes, insurance, management, and maintenance would be. Let's say $600 a month. A lot of people who get in trouble in real estate overpay and thus are "upside down."

I raise the rent it in line with 3% inflation over the following 20 years. My mortgage payment always stays at $500 a month, but at the end of 20 years I'm bringing in rent of $1,083 a month. Meanwhile, my mortgage has gone from 80K to 44K. In inflation-adjusted value, I gained 36K, and earn nearly double in rent what my cost is. Not a bad investment over 20 years, to be sure. What was the key to this success, even though I didn't earn one dime in appreciation over 20 years? Not overpaying up front. (Keep in mind we have ignored the depreciation and tax-advantaged capital gains investing elements from this example, as well.)

The second lesson: Investments are for the long-term. "Flipping" is for speculators. In my hometown a lot of these guys who bought condos in late 2005 with the expectation of a quick turn-around are getting killed. One condo complex in particular that I have my eye on. A number of 1BR units were sold in 2005 for 420-30K. There are units on sale in the condo right now for 330K. Rents top out at 1, 400 a month for a one-bedroom. But even at 330K, the units are highly overpriced for me. I will not buy unless or until the price drops back to the 190K range. If I paid more than that I would be "upside down. " There were two bank foreclosures in this facility, and NO buyers at the auction (meaning nobody offered to buy the units for the amount of mortgage on the unit). Which means that the bank owes them. The bank is going to take it in the ass on this deal. Hopefully several units in this place will end up as REOs, potentially. But not guaranteed. Driving the price down to my preferred level.

BundaLover
03-04-07, 17:18
Excellent view point and advice Hunt99. We are starting to see more foreclosures in Bay Area too. Mortgages are at a premium over equivalent rents here so from an investment standpoint its cheaper to rent then own. However there are many buyers that have income and growing families that want the their own home or a larger home and even though they admit appreciation potential over the short term (1-5 years) is very low are in the market. Also there are other external factors here a) maturing stock options where to put the money? b) grants from companies to new employees to buy a house with down payment assistence.

Redondo
06-05-07, 04:00
About a secure rental income in Argentina.

It's anything but secure of course. Tourists can leave and that is not unlikely with this high rate of inflation. Furthermore you need to have an ocupation-rate of around 80-90% to get a good ROI (atleast higher then you can get on a bank-account) and that can easily drop to 50-60%.

Second you have to consider that it might be hard to sell your property. The BA housing market is a sellers market and not a buyers market which means it's hard to sell your property (especially a high end one) I would say the average selling-time of a 100k apartment is about a year or even more. The selling process is also time consuming (reservas, which can easily result in your losing 3 months time because the buyer can't finance his buy or can't sell his home.

In 2006 there have been around 60.000 real estate transactions, which is nothing of course in a 4.500.000 people city and this is a time of economic prosperity.

Third you also have to consider that it might be hard if not impossible to bring your dollars out of the country. To date Argentina is the only country ever that has defaulted on its external debt. That should say you something about the way Argentina sees foreign investment. Argentina has also gone through numerous cases of hyperinflation and economic crisis.

If you plan to stay at least 5 to 10 years and / or are married to an Argentine, have a business or a job in Argentina it's different offcourse. If you are willing and can maintain your home you should be fine.

Bairespirata
06-06-07, 22:28
Redondo. Argentina is among a few countries that has defaulted, but not the only one. But I agree that is was the most spectacular one.

Saludos M