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Redondo
10-15-07, 12:08
Today I had a talk with my fiscal advisor and he told me that Argentina might want to try to see me as a resident.

I have been living about 7-8 months a year for the last 3 years on a tourist visa (I travel about 2 times a year to Holland) and I rent different places on monthly leases.

He said that Argentina might want to see me as a resident and that they want to collect taxes.

I personally doubt they would or could but is this a real posibility? I of course only want to pay my taxes in Holland.

Any personal experience on this?

Hunt99
10-15-07, 13:31
You should just pay the taxes you owe. Unlike the Netherlands, the taxes in Argentina are quite reasonable, only 75% on your first 2000 pesos of income, and 100% of the remainder.

El Aleman
10-15-07, 17:36
If you are a resident Argentina wants to tax your worldwide income and assets, not just what you earn in Argentina. This might or might not be of advantage depending on the double taxation treaty between Argentina and your country. Check that, AND talk to tax consultants in BOTH countries.

Check this web site: http://www.minfin.nl/en/subjects,taxation/international-aspects-of-taxation-in-the-netherlands/avoiding-double-taxation-for-resident-taxpayers/Tax-treaties.html I am sure there is also a version in Dutch.

Residency for tax purposes is usually defined as the country where you have the "center of your personal life and economic activities", and this is usually assumed if you live more than 183 days per year in that country.

2 untaxed centavos from.

El Alemán

Lexton
10-15-07, 20:34
Redondo, I saw a lot of references to this when I was researching Argentina taxes. Here is part of this post 375332 where I talk about this problem in Argentina Tax Issues:


I am still looking into these issues, but Argentina is fading fast. There is a potential land mine for non-resident property owners. The issue involves residency for tax purposes. I have seen various references to this issue, so it is not absolutely clear what the situation is. Here is a quote from one tax guide, that IS clear:

"If you are present in the country for more than six months (180 days) in a calendar year, you are considered an Argentine resident for tax purposes. Otherwise, you are regarded as non-resident."

This would not be very unusual. I have seen references to several countries (including Canada) having a similar law. But a lot of Argentine guides aren't very specific about it, which is why I am not absolutely sure. You HAVE to check it out in detail.

This can be HUGE. If you are living in Argentina by making visa runs, this says you could be potentially making yourself a resident for tax purposes. This is normally not likely to be an issue, because of problems with international judgements and collections. However, if you are a property owner in this situation, there is one point where they have your balls firmly in hand: When you go to sell. They could, just as they have started with the property taxes, etc; do a tax audit: "Let's just make sure you have been a good boy regarding income tax and residency issues, before we let you sell this". They have all the necessary information in their own systems to determine the residency issue.This says absolutely nothing about your status as a permanent resident, citizen, or temporary resident in the references I have seen.

I mention this in respect of property owners, but from what I can tell it applies to anybody. The key, of course, is that you have to come to the attention of the authorities in a manner that exposes sufficient assets to go after. Property owners fit this category perfectly, but there may be other ways.

This would not be unusual at all. I would also bet that you can end up being taxed as a resident of two countries this way: The country with your primary residence and the country where you visit more than 180 days. In the US, this is certainly true of tax residency for states. In some states, you can make yorself a tax resident by DRIVING THRU too many times, as I understand it. This arrangement is very useful for high tax entities, because even if they give credit for tax paid to another entity, they get to collect their higher portion.

AS El Aleman notes, they have the ability to go after taxes on WORLDWIDE income and assets that they can discover if you make yourself a tax resident. So this can be HUGE.

If you are at all worried about this, check it out very carefully, then report back to us on your findings.

Rock Harders
10-15-07, 20:56
Mongers-

Redondo's "worries" are so ridiculous and far-fetched that I cannot believe anyone is actually buying into this. First of all, people in Argentina on a tourist visa, no matter the length of time, are virtually invisible to the Argentine beauracracy, as without any identification numbers, bank accounts, or assets, they do not even have standing in Argentine court and therefore cannot be sued. This is the reason why many service providers (directv, fibertel, movistar, personal etc) will not sell their services to people without Argentine residence, because they cannot be sued in any court for breaking a contract. People who have bought real estate and therefore have a CUID (as opposed to a CUIL, which is the right to work, or a CUIT, which is the corporate tax number) can be hassled only for taxes not paid on the actual real estate that they have bought in Argentina. Furthermore, no effort to collect this will be made until one attempts to sells his property at any given time.

Bottom line here is that those interloping in Argentina on a tourist visa are as invisible and untaxable as Mexican migrant farm worker or a Russian prostitute in the USA.

El Perro
10-15-07, 21:31
Yes, exactly Dirk. If I was a property owner, I suppose I would keep out half an eye on this situation. However, to worry about any of this while here on a tourist visa is flat out silly. I don't care if you go back and forth to Uruguay, or wherever, an infinite number of times. My guess is Redondo's "fiscal advisor" either has no idea what he / she is talking about and / or is trying to drum up some business. I don't plan on buying property here, I don't have or want CUITs, CUILs, or any other "tracking" number. Hasn't hurt me in the least. A trip outside to renew the visa is easy, and every other time you can just head on down to immigration, pony up 100p and your good to go for another 90 days. My philosphy is to fly under the radar, and if the powers that be ever decide to get rigid about any of this, I'll just move on. Stay cool Redondo;) Tell your fiscal advisor to piss off.

Redondo
10-15-07, 22:19
If you are a resident Argentina wants to tax your worldwide income and assets, not just what you earn in Argentina. This might or might not be of advantage depending on the double taxation treaty between Argentina and your country. Check that, AND talk to tax consultants in BOTH countries.

Check this web site: http://www.minfin.nl/en/subjects,taxation/international-aspects-of-taxation-in-the-netherlands/avoiding-double-taxation-for-resident-taxpayers/Tax-treaties.html I am sure there is also a version in Dutch.

Residency for tax purposes is usually defined as the country where you have the "center of your personal life and economic activities", and this is usually assumed if you live more than 183 days per year in that country.

2 untaxed centavos from.

El AlemánThe problem is that I need to pay off the Dutch IRS if I emigrate. This is the main reason for me not to move away from Holland.

Redondo
10-15-07, 22:23
Redondo, I saw a lot of references to this when I was researching Argentina taxes. Here is part of this post 375332 where I talk about this problem in Argentina Tax Issues:

This says absolutely nothing about your status as a permanent resident, citizen, or temporary resident in the references I have seen.

I mention this in respect of property owners, but from what I can tell it applies to anybody. The key, of course, is that you have to come to the attention of the authorities in a manner that exposes sufficient assets to go after. Property owners fit this category perfectly, but there may be other ways.

This would not be unusual at all. I would also bet that you can end up being taxed as a resident of two countries this way: The country with your primary residence and the country where you visit more than 180 days. In the US, this is certainly true of tax residency for states. In some states, you can make yorself a tax resident by DRIVING THRU too many times, as I understand it. This arrangement is very useful for high tax entities, because even if they give credit for tax paid to another entity, they get to collect their higher portion.

AS El Aleman notes, they have the ability to go after taxes on WORLDWIDE income and assets that they can discover if you make yourself a tax resident. So this can be HUGE.

If you are at all worried about this, check it out very carefully, then report back to us on your findings.You need to go through the border everytime so I doubt it must be hard to find the ones who stay more then 180 days. Stop them and let them explain.

I doubt it will happen though, but there could be some cases

Hunt99
10-16-07, 12:58
Aren't those what the little people pay? Insufferable fools!

El Aleman
10-16-07, 18:26
Is according to my knowledge of the legal situation, and of course applies to people who leave significant paper trails and assets the AFIP can put their thumbs on, like real estate.

It is well enough known that often enough reality differs from what the paper says (ever performed an ISO 9000 or similar audit? And the "fly under the radar" approach certainly works, at least if the radar is out of service (like in Ezeiza) or the operators drunk (like in Russia the day Micheal Rust landed his Cessna on the Red Square. It was the "Day of the Soviet Air Force")

There is, however, a paper trail you leave when entering and leaving the country, and these are the yellow immigration forms, and the fact that your passport is read electronically. I bet 10 to one that in Argentina nobody will ever come to the idea to mine this pile of data, but it would be possible.

The 180 days rule is usually not applied to tourists, but it got some importance when German tax authorities tracked the whereabouts of sports celebrities like Boris Becker or Michael Schumacher, who took their official residency in tax shelters like Monaco. I just say still be carefull, and have some evidence on hand that your real "center of personal and economic activities" is in the land where you want to have it.

Btw. One can go to Uruguay or Chile as often as he wants, if he stays more than 180 days of any given year in Argentina, as far as I know he breaks Argentine immigration law, even if nobody cares when you enter the 3rd time. Once they start the data mining, you might end up facing trouble trying to leave for the 3rd time.

2 centavos de.

El Aleman

Redondo
10-16-07, 19:37
is according to my knowledge of the legal situation, and of course applies to people who leave significant paper trails and assets the AFIP can put their thumbs on, like real estate.

It is well enough known that often enough reality differs from what the paper says (ever performed an ISO 9000 or similar audit? And the "fly under the radar" approach certainly works, at least if the radar is out of service (like in Ezeiza) or the operators drunk (like in Russia the day Micheal Rust landed his Cessna on the Red Square. It was the "Day of the Soviet Air Force")

There is, however, a paper trail you leave when entering and leaving the country, and these are the yellow immigration forms, and the fact that your passport is read electronically. I bet 10 to one that in Argentina nobody will ever come to the idea to mine this pile of data, but it would be possible.

The 180 days rule is usually not applied to tourists, but it got some importance when German tax authorities tracked the whereabouts of sports celebrities like Boris Becker or Michael Schumacher, who took their official residency in tax shelters like Monaco. I just say still be carefull, and have some evidence on hand that your real "center of personal and economic activities" is in the land where you want to have it.

Btw. One can go to Uruguay or Chile as often as he wants, if he stays more than 180 days of any given year in Argentina, as far as I know he breaks Argentine immigration law, even if nobody cares when you enter the 3rd time. Once they start the data mining, you might end up facing trouble trying to leave for the 3rd time.

2 centavos de.

El AlemanDoes it actually say you can stay 180 days a year?

Lexton
10-16-07, 21:16
For those of you who didn't pay attention to what I said, maybe it will help if I repeat this part of what I wrote:


I mention this in respect of property owners, but from what I can tell it applies to anybody. The key, of course, is that you have to come to the attention of the authorities in a manner that exposes sufficient assets to go after. Property owners fit this category perfectly, but there may be other ways.Now, any people who have significant income or assets are on the lookout for this sort of thing all the time. If you are facing a fucking potential tax bill of say $20.000 - $200,000 per year or more from Argentina (not all that hard, at their rates) you try not to make yourself vulnerable. Just off the top, I can think of 3 situations where you would be vulnerable. If there are others, let's hear them:

1. You own Argentine property and try to sell it.

2. You bring a lot of money into the country to buy something and have to reveal the source.

3. You apply for an empresario or rentista visa and have to reveal financial means.

In these situations, you are likely to bring significant assets into the country, and they have all the information they need to do the tax audit. And I would assume they have the ability to detain you in the country in uncomfortable ways until you settle up.

Will they do this? Probably not AT THIS TIME. But one is creating a situation that can have an effect for several years. So if any of these kinds of actions might be in your future, check it out. It also might make a big difference if you happen to piss off the wrong people in some way.

Redondo is trying to talk like someone with significant assets at home. If he does, he needs to consider this. This is primarily a heads up for people who may not have thought too much about this. I still find it curious it has never been mentioned before on this board.

In all of my looking at entry / exit requirements, I have never seen any reference to a 180/ day year limit in Argentina. I have seen a limit of 180 days / year for Brazil.