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Jackson
01-01-08, 02:00
Thread Starter.

MCSE
08-03-08, 20:09
With all due respect, my opinion was only a reaction to a former post from jackson.You are saying (in a thread named racism in Argentina) that if Obama wins the US elections then Europeans will change their minds about American citizens, and a long explanation about international diplomatics. So what have that to do with racism in Argentina? I don't see any connection.

Mike Cockburn
08-03-08, 21:36
The argentinians are like passive spectators. They think the government will and should fix all problems. They seem to forget that each and every one of them is part of the society. If the society is a mess, how is it possible to govern?

Whenever an accident occurs, they blame the government for lack of control.

It is always someone else's fault. The argentinian people is the cause of 99.9% of the problems they have.

Everytime, they dislike something the government does, they gather and make a mess, make noise, and they smash things up. Their worker unions are ridiculous, they are so uncivilized. Sometimes, I don't know if they are football hooligans or union members. When they strike, they don't only mess up for other people, but also for themselves. The ex-owners of Aerolineas, Marsans, surely commited many mistakes, but how can you run an airline when they strike ALL the time. Well, they couldn't, so Marsans left. The Argentinians deserve the mess that they are in.

The Argentinians lack integrity and pride, in order to do what it takes to make a better society. In my home country, no one would even think of bribeing a police officer, the police officers, wouldn't accept them either, not only because it is illegal, but also because they have integrity and pride.


argentine people ARE the most racist people I have ever met, even when their world was crumbling around them with the devaluation of their currency they still felt they were better than everyone else.

Hell, I have even seen the beggers on the street complaint when I give them just spare change.

It has always been like this and it will always be like this.

Must be the spaniard blood in them, which I consider the most arrogant and most inhumane, evil people in the history of mankind.

Out for Flesh
08-03-08, 21:50
Must be the spaniard blood in them, which I consider the most arrogant and most inhumane, evil people in the history of mankind.Yes, that is why Spanish history is so similar to Argentina's.

MCSE
08-03-08, 23:39
Must be the spaniard blood in them, which I consider the most arrogant and most inhumane, evil people in the history of mankind.Spaniard royalty is in fact, not Spaniard but original from france. And the history it's not about the people, history is about the royalty. I would also add that every country in the world has a dark history.

Aqualung
08-04-08, 12:41
The argentinians are like passive spectators. They think the government will and should fix all problems.

Everytime, they dislike something the government does, they gather and make a mess, make noise, and they smash things up. Making noise and smashing things up doesn't sound to me like something a passive spectator does.

Mike Cockburn
08-05-08, 15:04
Well, they smash things up because nothing happens.

They put fire on the trains because they are arriving or departing late and are in bad condition. They don't seem to see that they shoot themselves in the foot. Repair costs drives money away from new investments.

Who would put a new costly train in a neighbourhood, were the old one was burn down by its own passengers. It is not a coincidence that the worst neighbourhoods have the worst trains.

What I mean is that they don't take responsability. The city is ful of litter, not because of the government aren't cleaning, but that the argentinians throw litter all over. The government is cleaning the streets, but the argentians are "faster" in making it dirty.

They are spectators in the sense that they think the government should solve everything, but it can't.


Making noise and smashing things up doesn't sound to me like something a passive spectator does.

MCSE
08-05-08, 16:38
They are spectators in the sense that they think the government should solve everything, but it can't.Government should enforce respect, it's a lack of respect littering and throwing stuff in the streets and making your dog to shit in the middle of the street. Government doesn't care, they are making money and living in a clean envirnonment only inside doors.

However, it takes a lot of time to understand, but there is a reason: collective efforts does not works because of the 'garantism'. Means there is no punishment. Argentine culture is based in individualism more than collective efforts to maintain a common thing. For example: In one of the buildings where I have 3 apts I have proposed to get a faster connection and share the hi-speed internet with a powerful router and every neighbor would save money. In fact, all of them are currently paying for high speed internet and all but one use wireless routers, all routers password protected. In summer time, mosquito repelents are by everywhere and I remember one or two summers ago, there was no supply due a bigger mosquito invasion, gov. Does not fumigates.

Macri http://www.barts.com.ar/barts/articles/articles_detail.php?recordID=new_major was elected since many beleived, he would remove the trash digglers from the streets, to "clean-up" the city but he didn't, seems the administration is only focused into recovering their investment.

Garantism has also to do with the fear people fear about military intervention and heavy police enforcement. That would make the city look cleanner, but at the same time, it would remove the spirit of freedom you can feel in every corner of BA with the exception of Puerto Madero.

Incredibly, levels of violence (good neighborhoods) are not comparable with other big cities in the world. It's true many would like to see cleanner streets, but many others consider more important that freedom spirit that makes Buenos Aires City unique.

The Argentine "racism" it's consequently a different racism that you can see in other countries, as there are equal oportunities for anyone. The origin for this variation of "racism" (In Argentina, that you wrongly call racism is about some individuals who feel themselves separated from the rest of the society, but it's not a drilled generalized idea from bigger organizations encouraging to punish the 'inferior races') it's about individuals who either feel themselves superiors or fear of a group of people from a different origin. This variation of racism may be related to the "garantism" the government and the whole population is fairly proud about.

MCSE
08-05-08, 16:44
I guess when I say "inhumane people", I think of how the Cortes and De Soto.Inhumane people sounds like a contradiction, inhumane humans.

I respect your point of view but I would say that Hernan Cortes was very human, a human motherfucker as many others in history. But a human after all.

Rock Harders
08-05-08, 17:53
Mongers,

You can sum up the attitudes and behavior of Argentines like this; they want and demand all sorts of rights, but they do not want the responsibility that comes along with those rights.

Suerte,

Rock Harders

Mike Cockburn
08-05-08, 19:04
MCSE.

Garantism. One learns a new word every day.

You mean that the government acts for a greater (common) good?

In other countries there is no need for heavy controls, to get the citizens to behave well, because it is in the culture.

Long ago, even before my time, in my own homecountry, there was much more control, and the people behaved well out of fear, but then the control was removed, nevertheless the people didn't return to their old bad habits.

Rather, it is "self" control. If you throw litter in my homecountry, someone (ordinary person) might make you pick it up, even by force.

The collective efforts in Argentina are in strong decline.

My impression is that people don't care about those outside their own neighbourhood. A person from barrio norte, has nothing in common with a person in a really poor area. In a figurative sense, they don't speak the same language. Who want's to be around sick and dirty people?

I myself feel a bit uneasy around the worst cases. I care for my health.

It is a shame, that it has gone too far.

The society has "abandonded" this people.

The question is why?

Even if a country is short on cash, the basic needs must be fulfilled first.

Geo Eye
08-05-08, 22:54
Mongers,

You can sum up the attitudes and behavior of Argentines like this; they want and demand all sorts of rights, but they do not want the responsibility that comes along with those rights.

Suerte,

Rock HardersThis is true, Mr. Harders and it is one of the many things wrong with Argentines.

I think their biggest problem is they are so closed-minded, they cannot think outside the box. It is like they walk around with blinder on, not aware of the outside world.

Caveman01
08-05-08, 23:19
This is true, Mr. Harders and it is one of the many things wrong with argentines.

I think their biggest problem is they are so closed-minded, they cannot.

Think outside the box. It is like they walk around with blinder on, not.

Aware of the outside world.Well, looking at your strange punctuation, seems like you, yourself, had crushed your head too many times against the walls of the box.

MCSE
08-06-08, 14:16
In other countries there is no need for heavy controls, to get the citizens to behave well, because it is in the culture.

Long ago, even before my time, in my own homecountry, there was much more control, and the people behaved well out of fear, but then the control was removed, nevertheless the people didn't return to their old bad habits.Sure, it's like training a dog, some dogs may take more time to learn, others are faster, if you impose a new rule for a short time and you don't enforce it, the old bad habits will raise again. An example it's the Porteno law for non smoking inside of the restaurants / bars. Has been respected, and you don't see people smoking inside restaurants.

BTW, what's your home country?

El Perro
08-11-08, 10:19
And, there are way more scoundrels here on a percentage basis than in the US. Maybe 2-3 times as many. DH,

I would hope we don't underestimate the number of scoundrels in the US. The amount of fraud, corruption and general malfeasance in the US is nothing to sneeze at. It is much more behind the scenes, if you will, in the US, but, at least in some areas, pervasive. The amount of corporate fraud / corruption has been close to out of control for quite some time, and one need go no further than to research the staggering number of companies who have worked a deal to avoid prosecution, not to mention those who were prosecuted and found gulity, and not to mention those who have not been charged, but continue with their nefarious ways. The healthcare system in the US is a veritable cesspool of fraud and corruption, from the public system to much of the private. The cozy relationship between any number of corporations and the government, and the favors doled out as a result, well, let us take a guess as to those numbers.:)

I'll stop there, but the list of guilty parties would be quite a list indeed and covering a wide area. Much deference to "doing the right thing" has been maimed, if not taken out back and shot over the past 25 years. My take is that unlike Argentina, and many other countries in south america, and elsewhere, the legal and ethical transgressions in the states tend to be hidden behind a veil of supposed honesty, suits and crisp haircuts. Thieves and slimeballs regardless. My 2 cents.

Argento
08-11-08, 21:13
DH,

I would hope we don't underestimate the number of scoundrels in the US. The amount of fraud, corruption and general malfeasance in the US is nothing to sneeze at. It is much more behind the scenes, if you will, in the US, but, at least in some areas, pervasive. The amount of corporate fraud / corruption has been close to out of control for quite some time, and one need go no further than to research the staggering number of companies who have worked a deal to avoid prosecution, not to mention those who were prosecuted and found gulity, and not to mention those who have not been charged, but continue with their nefarious ways. The healthcare system in the US is a veritable cesspool of fraud and corruption, from the public system to much of the private. The cozy relationship between any number of corporations and the government, and the favors doled out as a result, well, let us take a guess as to those numbers.:)

I'll stop there, but the list of guilty parties would be quite a list indeed and covering a wide area. Much deference to "doing the right thing" has been maimed, if not taken out back and shot over the past 25 years. My take is that unlike Argentina, and many other countries in south america, and elsewhere, the legal and ethical transgressions in the states tend to be hidden behind a veil of supposed honesty, suits and crisp haircuts. Thieves and slimeballs regardless. My 2 cents.And you don't obviously think that what you are prepared to say of the USA isn't going on here at a greater rate as well as the constant grafting at the personal level. I don't agree with your assertions and would like the source for your research. Having run businesses in the States and here, the degree of corruption, dishonesty and general lack of business ethics in Argentina is as bad as Indonesia, and that is as high (or could it be as low) as you can get.

And I have personal experience to support that assertion. My guess is that you have little direct business experience and have come to your opinion based on selective reading. Doing business in the US is a breeze. Here it is a constant battle to avoid being shaken down, robbed and mugged. Business here is something fitted around survival.

Argento

El Perro
08-11-08, 21:42
And you don't obviously think that what you are prepared to say of the USA isn't going on here at a greater rate as well as the constant grafting at the personal level. I don't agree with your assertions and would like the source for your research. Having run businesses in the States and here, the degree of corruption, dishonesty and general lack of business ethics in Argentina is as bad as Indonesia, and that is as high (or could it be as low) as you can get.

And I have personal experience to support that assertion. My guess is that you have little direct business experience and have come to your opinion based on selective reading. Doing business in the US is a breeze. Here it is a constant battle to avoid being shaken down, robbed and mugged. Business here is something fitted around survival.

ArgentoArgento,

I think everybody is aware of the troubles you have experienced in running your business here. I certainly have no reason to doubt that. Also, I wouldn't get into some sort of "research based" debate on the amount / percentage of scoundrels either here, in the US, or anywhere else. IMHO there are enough of them to go around regardless of where you live, and they seem to be proliferating, again, no matter where you live. My point, that I may have poorly articulated, is that folks get gouged and taken advantage of in the USA pretty regularly, and that it has become more than a cottage industry. It is corporate orchestrated and, I believe, increasingly endemic to the society. It is much more subtle than what you will find in Argentina, as well as other latin american countries. Those are my opinions based not on a scintilla of research.

I would add that I certainly didn't intend to derail this thread from the subject of racism in Argentina. Suerte.

Julio
08-12-08, 00:52
Having run businesses in the States and here, the degree of corruption, dishonesty and general lack of business ethics in Argentina is as bad as Indonesia, and that is as high (or could it be as low) as you can get. (Doing business in the US is a breeze. Here it is a constant battle to avoid being shaken down, robbed and mugged. Business here is something fitted around survival.I've never said that Argentina is the Elysian Fields.

Truly one of our big problems is Justice. To the same amount of delinquents, let's suppose ten delinquents found guilty, in U. S. A. Very probably the ten, or at least 9 or 8 goes to jail. Here, 4 or 5. Who will possible be at liberty before a couple of months.

That I must agree.

But scoundrels are here as in everywhere.

Let's remeber, only, one of the last big scandals involucrating people of the government (of Menem) and the I. B. M. Company. The bribe was received by this functionaries, but was PAID by the I. B. M. Company. Concerning a bribe, is so guilty the one who received as the one who paid it. The question you may ask is: why the one who must paid, pays? Can it be that, even paying a bribe, the benefits are so big for the foreign company that they accepted it?

Then look at what I've just said about justice in this country, and you may get an answer.

Julio
08-12-08, 01:46
I would hope we don't underestimate the number of scoundrels in the US. The amount of fraud, corruption and general malfeasance in the US is nothing to sneeze at. It is much more behind the scenes, if you will, in the US, but, at least in some areas, pervasive. The amount of corporate fraud / corruption has been close to out of control for quite some time, and one need go no further than to research the staggering number of companies who have worked a deal to avoid prosecution, not to mention those who were prosecuted and found gulity, and not to mention those who have not been charged, but continue with their nefarious ways. The healthcare system in the US is a veritable cesspool of fraud and corruption, from the public system to much of the private. The cozy relationship between any number of corporations and the government, and the favors doled out as a result, well, let us take a guess as to those numbers.:)

I'll stop there, but the list of guilty parties would be quite a list indeed and covering a wide area. Much deference to "doing the right thing" has been maimed, if not taken out back and shot over the past 25 years. My take is that unlike Argentina, and many other countries in south america, and elsewhere, the legal and ethical transgressions in the states tend to be hidden behind a veil of supposed honesty, suits and crisp haircuts. Thieves and slimeballs regardless. My 2 cents.You're right, Doggboy.

That's perhaps why The Godfather was written about an italo-american gangster, and not a porteño.

MCSE
08-13-08, 00:47
'Do you think the USA would have invaded Iraq if it had 20% of the world's broccoli?' What about controlling 20% of the world's pussy?

Julio
08-13-08, 01:20
Now it is being discussed, other words spring to the tongue.

Inconsiderate.

Hypocrite.

Insincere.

Opportunist.

Guile.

Rapacious.

Mendacious.

Sure they are polite and effuse friendship and helpfulness on meeting. Kissy kissy and gladhanders all. Nothing too much trouble. In the real, occidental world, panhandler is the word that best fits. But they all play the game and they all know the rules. Us gringos assume the same rules as in the occident apply. It is a big mistake because they don't. As someone once said; 'Do you think the USA would have invaded Iraq if it had 20% of the world's broccoli?' I say, 'Do you think that the Argentines who you call your friends, would be hanging around if you didn't have dough?' For those challenged by the questions, the answer is no in both instances. Sure there are a few Argentines I call friends and who have been put to the test. But there are a darn side more who failed and went for the dough, some subtley, but most quickly and crudely. Of course these people exist everywhere, it's just that most of them gravitated to Buenos Aires. The same is not for the true country people, of all classes. They in general are great value and genuinely allow you to share each other's lives.

ArgentoWell, it can be said from your words, you had a very bad experience with argentines here.

I'm very sorry, and I wouldn't question you about that.

But you can't draw, from a single experience, a general law.

There's a lot of testimonies, in this blog and everywhere, of foreigners having a hell of a good time in Argentina. Not only tourists. Even people who had choose this country to came to live in, marry a local girl and grow up his family.

But you seems to prefer to keep on mourning about all our faults, and how we are not what you think we should be.

It doesn't make me happy to ask this, but if you are so sure this is the cave of thiefs you think we are, instead of criticize and insult us the way you do, why don't you choose another place in the world inhabited by the kind of human beings you seem to belive still exist, and prove fortune there?

Don't get me wrong, but I truly believe that working your mind in the way you do, all you'll achieve is getting sick. I'm convinced that as long as freedom exists, nobody is obliged to stay in a place they don't like, forever.

I'm sorry, I would prefer to finish with a more optimistic message for you, but I don't see clearly at this point how.

Argento
08-13-08, 09:56
Well, it can be said from your words, you had a very bad experience with argentines here.

I'm very sorry, and I wouldn't question you about that.

But you can't draw, from a single experience, a general law.

There's a lot of testimonies, in this blog and everywhere, of foreigners having a hell of a good time in Argentina. Not only tourists. Even people who had choose this country to came to live in, marry a local girl and grow up his family.

But you seems to prefer to keep on mourning about all our faults, and how we are not what you think we should be.

It doesn't make me happy to ask this, but if you are so sure this is the cave of thiefs you think we are, instead of criticize and insult us the way you do, why don't you choose another place in the world inhabited by the kind of human beings you seem to belive still exist, and prove fortune there?

Don't get me wrong, but I truly believe that working your mind in the way you do, all you'll achieve is getting sick. I'm convinced that as long as freedom exists, nobody is obliged to stay in a place they don't like, forever.

I'm sorry, I would prefer to finish with a more optimistic message for you, but I don't see clearly at this point how.I hardly think that my opinion is based on a single experience. 18 years of doing business here has led me to my opinions. And when I need personal advice about my mental wellbeing, I will solicit it. Remember that Argentina has the highest per capita mental professionals in the world, so it is highly probable that statistic is a reflection of their mental state. So on this occasion, I will pass on taking your advice and reflect that your attitude towards criticism of Argentina is the common response. Unless your approaches are changed, the country will continue to be a basket case and the people remain amongst the most distrusted in the world.

What is true of individuals here is also true of them in a collective sense. Those adjectives I used are equally true of the government. For the last 50 years (since Peron) they have become infamous in the world for their opportunism (Falklands / Malvinas, Chile boundary disputes, las Papeleras and Uruguay) at an international level. And to continue, the so called 'Dirty War' of the 70's was conducted by Argentines of each side of the political spectrum, with the government of the day, massacring its own people, the cumulative effects still very much in play. And for good measure, how about honesty in business. The truth is there is little integrity apparent in Argentine private and public business dealings. Both groups default with never even a backwards glance at their creditors. So the financial system is disfunctional and don't even mention the baseness of the banks. The only funding for the government requirements is available from Chavez and that is at the usurous rate of 15%. Most other government's bond sales are less than a third of that rate.

So the cost of this immorality is expensive. Without doubt, the economy is going to fail. Our papers will be full of photographs of misty-eyed Argentinos, bewailing their misfortune and of course seeking to blame others. This time round there is no IMF or World Bank to blame, or the Club of Paris. Perhaps if they look in the mirror they may catch a glimpse of the culprit. After all, they are the ones who elect their government.

Argento

Big Bob 7
08-13-08, 09:57
if you are so sure this is the cave of thiefs you think we are, instead of criticize and insult us the way you do, why don't you choose another place in the world inhabited by the kind of human beings you seem to belive still exist, and prove fortune there?This is the classic Argentine response. I have heard this in many, many conversations. "Argentina is perfect." No it's not because of these reasons. "Then if it's not great why don't you leave." It rarely occurs to Argentines that foreigners might choose to stay in their country in spite of them rather than because of them.

Cordoba Dan
08-13-08, 10:41
What concerns me most about the future of Argentina is not how many expats become disgusted and decide to leave, but how many bright, young Argentines I've met in Europe and North America who have already done so. Their decisions were not so much about race or pussy but clearly about economic opportunity. Also, I don't think the prevelence of psychologists in BA is a reflection of a sicker community. I'm thinking of alot of places that could use regular couch time more than the portenos.

Mike Cockburn
08-13-08, 19:31
Come on! I don't know if it is THE cave of thieves, Ciudad del Este is worse, but surely it is a cave of thieves.

I found another interesting word "la viveza criolla". "oportunista, falso, sobrador. Holgazán, coimero why listo para hacerse de cualquier ventaja." "Zafar es una de sus grandes habilidades."

You can read more here:

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/argentina/viveza.htm

It is compiled from 100% argentinian sources.

Why am I staying?

Argentina controls 20% of the world's pussy industry.

Seriously, I think many foreigners appreciate the viveza criolla. That is, the good parts of it. That is what makes Argentina so special. It is a love and hate situation.


It doesn't make me happy to ask this, but if you are so sure this is the cave of thiefs you think we are, instead of criticize and insult us the way you do, why don't you choose another place in the world inhabited by the kind of human beings you seem to belive still exist, and prove fortune there?

Argento
08-13-08, 23:49
Come on! I don't know if it is THE cave of thieves, Ciudad del Este is worse, but surely it is a cave of thieves.

I found another interesting word "la viveza criolla". "oportunista, falso, sobrador. Holgazán, coimero why listo para hacerse de cualquier ventaja." "Zafar es una de sus grandes habilidades."

You can read more here:

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/argentina/viveza.htm

It is compiled from 100% argentinian sources.

Why am I staying?

Argentina controls 20% of the world's pussy industry.

Seriously, I think many foreigners appreciate the viveza criolla. That is, the good parts of it. That is what makes Argentina so special. It is a love and hate situation.Thanks for the support. I guess those of us who choose to live here, like their lives a bit on the edge. Certainly that applies in my instance. But being a true skeptic, I question and want knowledge so that I can form an opinion based on facts. Personal experience is the best empirical evidence you can get. And my posts, when I offer an opinion, are based on my own experiences in business here. No bullshit! The reality as I experienced it. I choose to live and work here, but that doesn't mean that I do not see things as they are, not as they ought to be. And once you get out of the, by Argentine standards, swish tourist zonas, it's a fairly dismal and patently venal world. I wish the best for Argentina and hope they can bridge the divide between hubris and reality. My 18 years experience has only seen the gap widen. I don't have an answer (s) And if I did, my guess is it would be received like reality is received by Julio. Shoot the messenger!

Argento

Julio
08-14-08, 01:25
Personal experience is the best empirical evidence you can get. Absolutely questionable. Personal experience is nothing without a rational mind to bind the facts. Dreams are personal experiences, too. And visions blurred by the alcohol.

Hate is another big distortive of reality.

After reading all these posts I'm frankly amazed by the hell of a bad time some of you must be leading here. It's not easy waking up every day in a place you despise so much, and make up your mind to hate everyone who crosses your way. Seems to me you're the kind of people who find scoundrels and thieves everywhere. Today's Argentine, but tomorrow may be Brasil, or Mexico, Spain. Or wherever you choose to live. You'll find that people are mean, and inconsiderate and hypocrite and insincere, and so on. Because those characteristics are in your mind and in the way you see the world. If the things you say about us were true, there wouldn't be the amount of people every day, from everyplace of the world came to visit this place. And as I already said, establish themselves for work and living.

Three opinions put together doesn't make a reality.

Come on, Argento, put down your resentment for a while and look around you what a beautiful place you, yourself, once choose to live in. What's donne is donne, and perhaps you had a bad experience with the wrong person, but that doesn't mean we argentines are all the same.

Let's meet one day for a beer, if you want, and let's talk about this or whatever you like.

As Doggboy said some posts ago, this thread has deriled from it's initial topic, wich was racism.

Rock Harders
08-14-08, 04:04
Mongers,

I have been living and doing business here for over three years now, and can without a doubt testify that Argentines are the most dishonest people I have encountered in any of the 25 or so countries I have visited. As my former friend DudeinBA once told me, they are simply "TRUTH CHALLENGED". I have visited Colombia, Paraguay, Brasil, Bolivia, Uruguay, Peru, and Chile and Argentina is the only one where I have to watch every little detail anytime money is involved. When I travel to these other countries, I have to constantly remind myself that I am not in Argentina anymore and that I can relax and let my guard down a bit when it comes to issues involving money.

This corruption is prevalent in both the private and public sectors; in the private sector nearly every single person selling you something over the long term will attempt to screw you whether it be through deceptive price raising or shortchanging quantity of product. In the public sector, every level is thoroughly corrupt, whether it be the garbage man, police, politicians, or public health workers. They all either steal public funds or solicit and accept bribes. The corruption is so deeply ingrained in the culture and society that the people hardly blink an eye when $800,000 USD shows up in a suitcase meant for the future president or when $80,000 USD is mysteriously found in the bathroom of the office of the Minister of Economy. Can you imagine if this amount of undocumented cash was discovered in the hands or connected to a prominant policitian or minister in the USA or Europe? That person would be in jail for a long, long time, in Argentina they elect that person President or appoint their husband to a highly paid gnocchi job.

How about the inflation index? Could their possibly be anything more dishonest than the rubbish that the INDEC publishes? The INDEC, which is a puppet of the Kirchners, estimates inflation is 11% when in fact it is 3X higher. On another issue, the Argentina's external debt has risen to levels HIGHER than what they were at the time of the 2002 default. Argentina doesn't care what interest rate they have to pay to finance new bonds because they know within a few years they will just default again anyway and stop making payments.

The Argentines have nobody but themselves to blame for this corrupt third world quagmire they have created. They have a culture of corruption here because they tolerate a culture of corruption. They know that lying and stealing are immoral, they do have bibles here, as they are all "catholics", yet they engage in it as a society and they tolerate it from their peers. The people seeking high public office in Argentina are simply seeking a license to steal and enrich themselves and their associates through said graft and corruption. My former boss down here used to always tell me in reference to the Argentines, "they are so stupid they do not know they are stupid".

That said, Buenos Aires is one of my favorite cities in the world, and is surely one of the most entertaining and energetic. It truly is the wild west here, there are almost no rules here, it is still cheaper than other places on it level, and there is a ton of cheap (pros) and accessible (nonpros) pussy around. It truly is a damn good place to live as an expat, and I would not trade the last three years of my life here for anything.

Suerte,

Rock Harders

Jes1959
08-14-08, 07:31
What does happen when a member of the U. S. House of Representatives is found with $90,000.00, In his refrigerator?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Jefferson

And one for the other team, Ted Stevens from Alasaka.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a4U6k9fZABc0&refer=home

El Perro
08-14-08, 08:34
I agree with R Harders-please split this thread off. At this point it is a long way from the topic of racism in Argentina.

Argento
08-14-08, 14:23
Mongers,

This corruption is prevalent in both the private and public sectors; in the private sector nearly every single person selling you something over the long term will attempt to screw you whether it be through deceptive price raising or shortchanging quantity of product. In the public sector, every level is thoroughly corrupt, whether it be the garbage man, police, politicians, or public health workers. They all either steal public funds or solicit and accept bribes. The corruption is so deeply ingrained in the culture and society that the people hardly blink an eye when $800,000 USD shows up in a suitcase meant for the future president or when $80,000 USD is mysteriously found in the bathroom of the office of the Minister of Economy. Can you imagine if this amount of undocumented cash was discovered in the hands or connected to a prominant policitian or minister in the USA or Europe? That person would be in jail for a long, long time, in Argentina they elect that person President or appoint their husband to a highly paid gnocchi job.

How about the inflation index? Could their possibly be anything more dishonest than the rubbish that the INDEC publishes? The INDEC, which is a puppet of the Kirchners, estimates inflation is 11% when in fact it is 3X higher. On another issue, the Argentina's external debt has risen to levels HIGHER than what they were at the time of the 2002 default. Argentina doesn't care what interest rate they have to pay to finance new bonds because they know within a few years they will just default again anyway and stop making payments.

The Argentines have nobody but themselves to blame for this corrupt third world quagmire they have created. They have a culture of corruption here because they tolerate a culture of corruption. They know that lying and stealing are immoral, they do have bibles here, as they are all "catholics", yet they engage in it as a society and they tolerate it from their peers. The people seeking high public office in Argentina are simply seeking a license to steal and enrich themselves and their associates through said graft and corruption. My former boss down here used to always tell me in reference to the Argentines, "they are so stupid they do not know they are stupid".

Rock HardersThe talk about public, ie. Government, lying and cheating, leads me to relate the truth about the gas supply. I couldn't figure out why my stove was so slow to heat water and next to impossible to cook stir fried food. One of my friend's son-in-law is fairly senior in the overseeing authority and I chanced to ask him, presuming that it was simply a lower calorific gas. Damn right, but not naturally occurring. What the base bastards are doing is pumping common air into the gas supply and diluting the supply. As gas has become more difficult, rather than increasing the tariff, they have pushed more air into the mix. Some days it is impossible to get a full flame, so it is obviously a moveable feast. I think that is venal to the extreme. But seems to work at a political level.

Argento

Julio
08-15-08, 01:33
Mongers,

I have been living and doing business here for over three years now, and can without a doubt testify that Argentines are the most dishonest people I have encountered in any of the 25 or so countries I have visited. As my former friend DudeinBA once told me, they are simply "TRUTH CHALLENGED". I have visited Colombia, Paraguay, Brasil, Bolivia, Uruguay, Peru, and Chile and Argentina is the only one where I have to watch every little detail anytime money is involved. When I travel to these other countries, I have to constantly remind myself that I am not in Argentina anymore and that I can relax and let my guard down a bit when it comes to issues involving money.

This corruption is prevalent in both the private and public sectors; in the private sector nearly every single person selling you something over the long term will attempt to screw you whether it be through deceptive price raising or shortchanging quantity of product. In the public sector, every level is thoroughly corrupt, whether it be the garbage man, police, politicians, or public health workers. They all either steal public funds or solicit and accept bribes. The corruption is so deeply ingrained in the culture and society that the people hardly blink an eye when $800,000 USD shows up in a suitcase meant for the future president or when $80,000 USD is mysteriously found in the bathroom of the office of the Minister of Economy. Can you imagine if this amount of undocumented cash was discovered in the hands or connected to a prominant policitian or minister in the USA or Europe? That person would be in jail for a long, long time, in Argentina they elect that person President or appoint their husband to a highly paid gnocchi job.

How about the inflation index? Could their possibly be anything more dishonest than the rubbish that the INDEC publishes? The INDEC, which is a puppet of the Kirchners, estimates inflation is 11% when in fact it is 3X higher. On another issue, the Argentina's external debt has risen to levels HIGHER than what they were at the time of the 2002 default. Argentina doesn't care what interest rate they have to pay to finance new bonds because they know within a few years they will just default again anyway and stop making payments.

The Argentines have nobody but themselves to blame for this corrupt third world quagmire they have created. They have a culture of corruption here because they tolerate a culture of corruption. They know that lying and stealing are immoral, they do have bibles here, as they are all "catholics", yet they engage in it as a society and they tolerate it from their peers. The people seeking high public office in Argentina are simply seeking a license to steal and enrich themselves and their associates through said graft and corruption. My former boss down here used to always tell me in reference to the Argentines, "they are so stupid they do not know they are stupid".

That said, Buenos Aires is one of my favorite cities in the world, and is surely one of the most entertaining and energetic. It truly is the wild west here, there are almost no rules here, it is still cheaper than other places on it level, and there is a ton of cheap (pros) and accessible (nonpros) pussy around. It truly is a damn good place to live as an expat, and I would not trade the last three years of my life here for anything.

Suerte,

Rock HardersSo, one should think you're on the "smart side".

Looking at your posts seems like a good joke.

You resemble more an Homero Simpsons on exile, mourning forever, than a happy and intelligent fellow. But O.K., I may be wrong because your are the smart guy who knows we're all stupid, so go on shiting everybody. That must be a demonstration of intelligence... (¡?)

Argento
08-15-08, 10:05
My former boss down here used to always tell me in reference to the Argentines, "they are so stupid they do not know they are stupid".

Rock HardersPoint well on the way to be proved again.

Argento

Julio
08-15-08, 10:26
Point well on the way to be proved again.

ArgentoShould I think, too, that insulting from behind a P. C. Must be another demonstration of intelligence?

Daddy Rulz
08-15-08, 10:36
My ex, bless her heart, 100% Portenya used to sit in her apartment where she had cable and internet she was stealing from fibertel, cooking on a stove that was heated by gas she was being charged a lower rate for because her apartment was somehow on record for being unoccupied, spending money that she had never been taxed for because she had never, ever reported it for over ten years, talking about the corruption of the politicos.

Once I walked out of Habana forgetting to pay the bill, I had been sitting outside waiting for her, when I saw her I just stood up and left. A couple blocks away I remembered I hadn't paid, she was astounded when I turned around and went back. The really amazing thing was so were the girls at the Habana.

A very good friend of mine there wanted a laptop so he had it sent to me when I was coming down. He was astounded that I brought it and didn't want payment for bringing it.

The only place in the world I ever got counterfeit money from an ATM was in BsAs at the Banco Francais in Colegialis. I saw it was trucho and walked in to address it, the managers answer "Imposible" nothing was done.

As far as Provincia, when my buddy got married less people showed up at the reception than he had planned for. His new sister in law demanded and received a rebate from the caterer. She stuffed it in her purse, I asked my buddy about it later, she never gave it to him.

It's ingrained, received with their mothers milk, everybody given the chance will screw you so you are justified in screwing them first. They don't see it as screwing, it's just how things work. Just like boxing, protect yourself at all times.

I'm not saying it's good or bad, like Rock I really loved living in BsAs and can't wait to get back but to say that their understanding of honesty isn't a tad different from American or European (with the exception of Italy) practices is delusional. The funny part to me and it is funny, like a nation of three year olds it is always "they" never "us". We are the good people, they are the bad. Remember the IMF debt, the reason given for the default essentially was "You knew we wouldn't be able to afford to pay this back when you gave it to us, so it's really your fault for loaning us the money."

Argento
08-15-08, 11:32
Alexander Solzhenitsyn, who has just died, has been the subject of many articles in the last few weeks. The current issue of 'The Economist' quotes him as saying that the only response to authoritarian government by intelligent people is;

"DON'T LIE! DON'T PARTICIPATE IN LIES! DON'T SUPPORT A LIE!"

And that in a nutshell is the kernel of truth responsible for this sad country.

Argento

Argento
08-15-08, 11:42
her Remember the IMF debt, the reason given for the default essentially was "You knew we wouldn't be able to afford to pay this back when you gave it to us, so it's really your fault for loaning us the money."Time's shortly coming up for them to pay Chavez his interest and when they don't have the dough, I wonder what the response will be, both from Chavez wanting his usurious interest and the Kirchners when they can't and won't pay. Might just cause a rift or two in the up to now, socialist harmony. My guess is no more kissy kissy.

Argento

Seaman
08-15-08, 11:57
Time's shortly coming up for them to pay Chavez his interest and when they don't have the dough, I wonder what the response will be, both from Chavez wanting his usurious interest and the Kirchners when they can't and won't pay. Might just cause a rift or two in the up to now, socialist harmony. My guess is no more kissy kissy.

ArgentoIn the BA Herald of yesterday it was written that Chavez sold his bonds already. So whoever they have to pay, it won't be Chavez.

Argento
08-15-08, 16:07
In the BA Herald of yesterday it was written that Chavez sold his bonds already. So whoever they have to pay, it won't be Chavez.Yes, it was reported in all the locals. The rider is of course, that Chavez sold them on with a guarantee. He in the end, bears the responsibility for a no-show. And with the bond discounts, I am sure he made 4 or 5%. Not bad dough on a turn in a few days and in U$ Dollars. U$50 or 60 million is serious dough.

Argento

Andres
08-15-08, 19:11
The ex-owners of Aerolineas, Marsans, surely commited many mistakes, but how can you run an airline when they strike ALL the time. Well, they couldn't, so Marsans left.The history of Aerolíneas since privatization is a complex one, and involved different owners and operators such as Iberia, American Airlines, LAN Chile and such.

I agree that endlessly striking cannot be supported by any company, but unfortunately it's the only way workers have to voice up their claims. If the work-relations courts worked as they should, other negotiation channels would be preferable by all actors (provided that all actors behaved in good faith, something I don't think is the case in the Aerolíneas case since, among other things, Marsans oversold tickets)

Andres

Andres
08-15-08, 19:13
Even if a country is short on cash, the basic needs must be fulfilled first.That's desirable, but. Who pays for that? And where the money comes from?

Andres

Andres
08-15-08, 19:20
This is true, Mr. Harders and it is one of the many things wrong with Argentines.

I think their biggest problem is they are so closed-minded, they cannot think outside the box. It is like they walk around with blinder on, not aware of the outside world.It would be much more worthy to inquire abut the causes of Argentines' behavior in general than to tag them.

Andres

Andres
08-15-08, 19:46
This is the classic Argentine response. I have heard this in many, many conversations. "Argentina is perfect." No it's not because of these reasons. "Then if it's not great why don't you leave." It rarely occurs to Argentines that foreigners might choose to stay in their country in spite of them rather than because of them.I don't think that Julio asked it with that intention.

It's hard sometimes to understand some attitudes, specially from a guy who is a businessman in Argentina since very long and who pictures a very grim reality of the country. Something doesn't fit:

1) If you tag Argentines as very corrupt people but you do business for years and years there, chances are that you are adapting to local rules and becoming corrupt too (or at least allowing corruption to pass by and not reporting it)

2) If you think that the country is going to collapse soon, then it's hard to understand how are you still doing business there.

3) If you are VERY assertive that the country is going to collapse soon, then many Argentines will catch that you are wishing that to happen and that you have a stake in that aftermath becoming true. Many guys from the financial sector fit that profile, the ones who have been predicting the collapse since 2002 and who miss the golden days under the Menem terms.

Complaining about Argentina and Argentines is OK, and in fact I agree on half of the comments I read here (especially on Argentines not taking responsibility of their actions) but if someone is so bitterly annoyed by Argentines' behavior and still living there, then he has a problem and that casts doubt about either his mental health or his true intentions and objectives.

Andres

Andres
08-15-08, 19:59
Mongers,

I have been living and doing business here for over three years now, and can without a doubt testify that Argentines are the most dishonest people I have encountered in any of the 25 or so countries I have visited.Then you haven't visited Russia or India. Argentina is very corrupt, no doubt about it, but I heard some horror stories about Russia that are too much for Argentine corruption standards.

My point is that exaggerating the corruption level of Argentina takes credibility from your words. Paraguay is way more corrupt than Argentina.

Andres

Mike Cockburn
08-15-08, 20:07
There is always money.

Like when you say "I can't, I don't have time". Everybody has time! 24h per day. It is always a question of priorities.

Don't you always have money for food and clothes no matter how little money you've got.

Isn't it more important to provide food and education, rather than building a tren bala or other big projects. Having poor people is an indirect cost, it is not only a social debt, but it is a running cost, converted in higher crime rate and low productivity.


That's desirable, but. Who pays for that? And where the money comes from?

Andres

Mike Cockburn
08-15-08, 20:29
I can't stand the argentinian strikes. They really hurt the companies and in the long term themselves. In other countries, the strikes are more civilized,

For example, the pilots denies to work extra hours, If that doesn't work they gradually make the measures harder.

The strikes (different unions taking shifts) probably wiped out the profits and created a deficit. In that position it is logically harder to accept higher wages and pay for the necessary repairs (they had 40 or so planes on the ground)

I have a friend working in a travel agency. She stopped selling aerolineas long ago (over a year ago) in favor of other airlines. AA is just not trustworthy, planes are canceled without notice, the employees strike all the time. Don't think for a minute, that she is the only one that has stopped selling tickets from aerolineas.

The owners have acted as amateurs. But without money, poor service, and declining sales, not even professionals can save a sinking ship.

The employees doomed the company and themselves.


I agree that endlessly striking cannot be supported by any company, but unfortunately it's the only way workers have to voice up their claims.

Andres

Mike Cockburn
08-15-08, 20:55
1) Yes. Foreign companies adapt themselves to local rules. They know that Nothing Happens, if you don't bribe. It is how the argentinian system works. They prefer to bribe than to loose the buisiness. Is it wrong? Yes. Can they do business without bribes here? If the competition bribes, probably not.

2) According to the chinese. Chaos, means both Crise and Oportunity. After the crise comes the oportunity. Those that bought departments in 2001-2002, made a pretty good deal.

3) There are some that the thinks that the crise will come very soon.

There are those that will ignore its possibility until the day it happened.

I was here in 2001. I told some people that foreign newspapers saw a devaluation coming. One answer I got was "No! It is 1 dolar 1 peso. They can't change it. It is a law!". I shut my mouth. I was a tourist, and didn't want to make enemies unnecessarily. But the government did change it.

I think there will be a recession, crise is a too strong word, it won't be as bad as the last crise. Aren't there signs already? The government already has problems finding funding for its expenses and the inflation skyrockets. The productivity is on decline.


I don't think that Julio asked it with that intention.

It's hard sometimes to understand some attitudes, specially from a guy who is a businessman in Argentina since very long and who pictures a very grim reality of the country. Something doesn't fit:

1) If you tag Argentines as very corrupt people but you do business for years and years there, chances are that you are adapting to local rules and becoming corrupt too (or at least allowing corruption to pass by and not reporting it)

2) If you think that the country is going to collapse soon, then it's hard to understand how are you still doing business there.

3) If you are VERY assertive that the country is going to collapse soon, then many Argentines will catch that you are wishing that to happen and that you have a stake in that aftermath becoming true. Many guys from the financial sector fit that profile, the ones who have been predicting the collapse since 2002 and who miss the golden days under the Menem terms.

Complaining about Argentina and Argentines is OK, and in fact I agree on half of the comments I read here (especially on Argentines not taking responsibility of their actions) but if someone is so bitterly annoyed by Argentines' behavior and still living there, then he has a problem and that casts doubt about either his mental health or his true intentions and objectives.

Andres

Exon123
08-15-08, 21:14
Whats interesting about this discussion is the obvious no one has mentioned.

Consider this, Aerolineas Argentina holds most of the in country, the small communites they serve hostage.

As an example:

Several years ago I wanted to go fly fishing in San Martian de Los Andies. Everything was set, hotels, fishing guides, ect, ect.

There was only one problem, Aerolineas Argentina. They were on again, off again, striking so I had to cancell the whole trip. I could not take the chance that if I went I couldn't get back in time to catch my flight back home.

That in itself was not good, but take into consideration the bigger picture and everyones lose's the revenues I would have spent. The Hotel I would have stayed in, the restaurants I would have eaten in, the fishing guides I would have hired, even the "Trinkets" I would have bought.

Now I'm just one person, but consider a whole plane load and your talking about a lot of money that was not spent in that little economy of San Martain.

A year or so later I made the trip, $500 USD round trip, I asked the locals in San Martain. They all agreed that the whole community was at the complete mercy of Aerolineas Argentina. If the airline strikes the whole city goe's into a recession.

Exon

Julio
08-16-08, 00:52
If you think that the country is going to collapse soon, then it's hard to understand how are you still doing business there.
According to the chinese. Chaos, means both Crise and Oportunity. After the crise comes the opportunity. Those that bought departments in 2001-2002, made a pretty good deal.Nice boy.

Nice ethics.

So, you're waiting for everything to crash down so you can buy your chinese departments in Recoleta.

What I fail to understand is why, since airplanes exist, you have to be living here (bearing this torment) instead of waiting in a tropical beach our final collapse, then take a jet and materialize your incredible operation.

Since you're another exponent of the brilliant intelligence North America has sent us lately, I'm sure there must be a reason.

Please enlight me.

Andres
08-16-08, 00:56
There is always money.

Like when you say "I can't, I don't have time". Everybody has time! 24h per day. It is always a question of priorities.

Don't you always have money for food and clothes no matter how little money you've got.

Isn't it more important to provide food and education, rather than building a tren bala or other big projects. Having poor people is an indirect cost, it is not only a social debt, but it is a running cost, converted in higher crime rate and low productivity.I agree on your approach of covering basic people needs, at least for not facing high crime rates in the future. But it is naive to think that the state has an endless supply of money.

Individuals and companies doesn't like to subsidize the poor and, with the state not owning those cash-cow companies, little can you have money to spend. Just recall the fiercity of the recent farm lockout, a sector who's currently enjoying an unprecedented bonanza.

Andres

Andres
08-16-08, 01:08
I can't stand the argentinian strikes. They really hurt the companies and in the long term themselves. In other countries, the strikes are more civilized,

For example, the pilots denies to work extra hours, If that doesn't work they gradually make the measures harder.Strikes work that way in Argentina because only by playing at the extremes do executives sit at the negotiating table. If you just wave signs and flags, they laugh at you.

For your proposal to work, the work-relations courts has to work promptly, something that doesn't happen.


The strikes (different unions taking shifts) probably wiped out the profits and created a deficit. In that position it is logically harder to accept higher wages and pay for the necessary repairs (they had 40 or so planes on the ground)You need to study a little bit more the case of Aerolineas before building theories of profits and losses. After the privatization, the company ceased to be profitable and was passing from hands to hands (Iberia, American, LAN Chile) once the Spaniards sold the main assets (offices in NY, Paris, etc, and planes) Of course, between every move the state covered a part of the salaries and losses in order to keep a neuralgic company running.


I have a friend working in a travel agency. She stopped selling aerolineas long ago (over a year ago) in favor of other airlines. AA is just not trustworthy, planes are canceled without notice, the employees strike all the time. Don't think for a minute, that she is the only one that has stopped selling tickets from aerolineas.This doesn't mean very much for the Aerolineas case. As Exon explains in his posting, Aerolineas is virtually monopolic for many routes, so if you don't buy Aerolineas tickets you have to take the bus.

Andres

Andres
08-16-08, 01:20
2) According to the chinese. Chaos, means both Crise and Oportunity. After the crise comes the oportunity. Those that bought departments in 2001-2002, made a pretty good deal.The problem with that reasoning is that it only works for people holding large amounts of cash and only for a while (if at all, since I doubt that Recoleta-apts owners would sell their apartments cheap if a crisis arrives) It's very far away from a sound economic policy aimed at creating jobs and wealth for the long term.


I think there will be a recession, crise is a too strong word, it won't be as bad as the last crise. Aren't there signs already? The government already has problems finding funding for its expenses and the inflation skyrockets. The productivity is on decline.Soon or later a recession will arrive. After all, you cannot keep 6-7-8% growth rates forever.

However, sound economic policies go beyond growth and recession times. You cannot change a "social agreement" just because your fundamentals are weakening. In this case, you are not dealing with the stock market but with the economy at a whole.

Andres

Daddy Rulz
08-16-08, 11:38
little can you have money to spend.But I had to point out you went a little Yoda on us here.


Nice boy.

Nice ethics.

So, you're waiting for everything to crash down so you can buy your chinese departments in Recoleta.

What I fail to understand is why, since airplanes exist, you have to be living here (bearing this torment) instead of waiting in a tropical beach our final collapse, then take a jet and materialize your incredible operation.

Since you're another exponent of the brilliant intelligence North America has sent us lately, I'm sure there must be a reason.

Please enlight me.JAJAJA so typically Argentine, none of us are saying we don't like it there. It's a symptom of your mass delusion of grandeur that you can't accept that your system is fucked up. "You Yanqui pigs have nothing to teach us, if you don't like go back where you came from."

I learned a lot about enjoying life in the two years I lived in BsAs. How family is more important than money, how to be a better friend. In order to do that I had to first admit that what I thought I knew might be wrong, then I was ready to observe and learn. Too bad most Latins can't break through the Machista to do the same regarding building a country.

But if they did I wouldn't be able to fuck cute girls for 30 bucks so on balance, as the song says "don't go changing."

Andres nothing after the second quote was aimed at you.

Mike Cockburn
08-16-08, 12:16
I think they should apply taxes on more sectors and on individuals.

The tax for the rich and middle class is very low. It is a small tax haven.

I was against resolution 125. The tax was as high as 80%. That is too much! Some farmers were loosing money. They could have just increased it 10% and gotten away with it.

Overtaxation leads to poor productivity. If the industry were allowed to increase their production. The tax income would increase.


I agree on your approach of covering basic people needs, at least for not facing high crime rates in the future. But it is naive to think that the state has an endless supply of money.

Individuals and companies doesn't like to subsidize the poor and, with the state not owning those cash-cow companies, little can you have money to spend. Just recall the fiercity of the recent farm lockout, a sector who's currently enjoying an unprecedented bonanza.

Andres

Mike Cockburn
08-16-08, 12:26
I see you are full of prejudices.

I am not from North America, not from Australia, nor the UK.

Ethics?

I know a lot of argentinians that bought cheap. The argentine economy would never have boosted without the devaluation. Is it ethical to be a farmer?


Nice boy.

Nice ethics.

So, you're waiting for everything to crash down so you can buy your chinese departments in Recoleta.

What I fail to understand is why, since airplanes exist, you have to be living here (bearing this torment) instead of waiting in a tropical beach our final collapse, then take a jet and materialize your incredible operation.

Since you're another exponent of the brilliant intelligence North America has sent us lately, I'm sure there must be a reason.

Please enlight me.

Dickhead
08-16-08, 13:21
I like living here too. I have a degree in Latin American history and have studied the history of the country quite thoroughly. So all this crap about not understanding why things are the way they are here is a little tough to apply to me. I have been all over the former Spanish colonies and I do understand why things are the way they are. Furthermore, I knew about the racism and corruption (and inefficiency) before I moved down here. The racism doesn't affect me since I'm white, and the corruption is a minor nuisance since I don't do banking here, or own property.

Here's the kind of shit that drives me nuts.

Carrefour Story #1: Sign says, "15% off on X, Y, and Z if you use any debit card. " X happens to be "bebidas" so I buy a bunch of booze, go to the check out counter, hand over my VISA debit card, and get no discount. "Why? " I ask. "This is not a debit card. " "It says 'debit' right on it, right here (pointing). " "Well, our system says it's a credit card. " "How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? " "Five. " "No, four, because calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg. "

I am in the express line and people are getting impatient. I tell her to get the manager. Manager agrees it's a debit card, but it's a US debit card. I agree. "So that's why you don't get the discount. " "Here is the ad. It says any debit card. It doesn't say any Argentinean debit card. " "Well, I am not giving you the discount. " "OK, I want to talk to the store manager. And, if I don't get the discount, I'm not making the purchase. " With a heavy sigh, she manually overrides the system and gives me the discount. Later one guy who was in line congratulated me. The rest were pissed.

Carrefour Story #2: I have three quarts of Brahma in the cart so I take one out so she can run the bar code, and I tell her I have a total of three of these identical items. Before I leave the store, I check the receipt. It shows one quart of Brahma but 3 dozen eggs. I only bought one dozen eggs. Eggs are 6. 09 and Brahma is 2. 50 so I am out 7. 18. In order to rectify this, I had to:

1) Go back to the register where I had to take the beer out of my backpack so it could be rung up. Yes, folks, first make the gringo pay for the beer!
2) Go to customer service, explain what happened, and wait while they call the cashier to give her a lengthy interrogation;
3) Take the credit they gave me back through the line (that's the third time through the line if you are keeping score at home);
4) Hear the mandatory request to donate the 18 centavos to Unicef since they have no monedas; and
5) Wait several more minutes for some flunky to arrive with monedas.

Fortunately, after all was said and done I discovered I had screwed them out of two bottle deposits so I had an extra 2.48 as compensation for all this bullshit.

And Daddy, didn't you get a trucho 50 at some coffee shop and threaten to sleep on the counter until they made good on it?

Daddy Rulz
08-16-08, 14:35
And Daddy, didn't you get a trucho 50 at some coffee shop and threaten to sleep on the counter until they made good on it?I forgot all about that, yes I did. It was at the cafe on Corrientes and Maipu or Esmeralda. They didn't want to exchange the bill and it got pretty heated. They assumed that because I looked and sounded like a tourist I would just hang my head and leave. Wups, I did indeed tell that pelotudo I would sleep on the counter until I got my change.

Doesn't top my buddies story of the real estate agent that switched out 600 bucks on his deposit though. He had to give a 1500 dollar deposit, along with two months rent for a total of 4500 dollars. Before he came to BsAs he had gone to the Bank of America in Seattle and got 45 100 dollar bills, it was still in the bank envelope when he gave it to the agent. While he inspected the apartment he had his Argentinian wife who was 8.9 months pregnant counting money with the agent. During the counting she had to take a pee. When he got back with the agent, the agent had separated 6 bills saying they were trucho. Upon inspection they were, so one of two things happened. Either he got 6 100 dollar bills from the B of A printed on copy paper with the same serial number or the agent came to the meeting prepared to rob him if the opportunity presented itself. You can decide for your self which is more likely.

More telling about this transaction and how ingrained corruption is in the psyche of S America (not just Argentina but it is high art there) was Sofi's reaction to this story. She said "why didn't he compare them to the list?" I said "what list?" She answered the paper he had written all of the serial numbers on, or the paper he photocopied the bills on." When I told her he hadn't done that she asked "then how did he expect to get the same bills back from his deposit?" When people buy houses there do they sit in a little room in a bank and count and verify the money? I'm serious about this question. Bad you have bought a shitload of apartments, how do the mechanics of that transaction work?

She was not surprised, shocked, amazed or anything by the actions of the agent. Rather the converse, she was amazed that a man as intelligent as my friend would be so dumb to expose himself to being robbed like that. I tried explaining how long the agent would spend in jail in the EEUU for doing that but I could see that she just couldn't grasp the idea. She couldn't imagine local police coming in, then calling the Secret Service and FBI to report the debased currency, and somebody for damn sure investigating not only who tried to screw who but also the source of where the money had come from. It was just completely outside of her experience to have an expectation of justice in a crime like this. She didn't really even think of it as crime, just a smart Portenyo taking down an unwary Yanqui, she didn't like it because he is my best friend, but had it been a stranger I doubt if she would have even given it a shoulder shrug.

Andres
08-16-08, 15:25
I think they should apply taxes on more sectors and on individuals.

The tax for the rich and middle class is very low. It is a small tax haven. I agree, but then you say:


I was against resolution 125. The tax was as high as 80%. That is too much! Some farmers were loosing money. They could have just increased it 10% and gotten away with it.

Overtaxation leads to poor productivity. If the industry were allowed to increase their production. The tax income would increase.I don't know where you get the 80% taxation. I guess that you take it from the sliding scale taxes when the international soy price rises over acertain value (in fact, tax is 95% if it gets over USD 600/ Ton)

In fact, what they did is increase it over 6% provided that the price remained at the November 2007 values. Only those values exceeding it would be taxed higher (hence the sliding tax idea) However, the media was pretty effective in convincing people that farmers are almost bankrupt.

This is just an example of how difficult is to tax middle and high class incomes. Unfortunately, when you deal with public policies, you have to take it into account.

I don't understand your mention of "industry" on your comment, unless that you consider crops as industrial goods.

Andres

Mike Cockburn
08-16-08, 16:06
Industry, was thought in terms of production. Maybe it is not the correct term, but the agriculture is a form of industry, Its production is industrialized, in its extension there are plants (factories) that make flour and oil from the seeds.

The big exporters are surely makeing a fortune. The primary fault of the tax, was that it was based on the revenue rather than the profit. That is why it was so unfair for small producers, apart from being so high.


I agree, but then you say:

I don't know where you get the 80% taxation. I guess that you take it from the sliding scale taxes when the international soy price rises over acertain value (in fact, tax is 95% if it gets over USD 600/ Ton)

In fact, what they did is increase it over 6% provided that the price remained at the November 2007 values. Only those values exceeding it would be taxed higher (hence the sliding tax idea) However, the media was pretty effective in convincing people that farmers are almost bankrupt.

This is just an example of how difficult is to tax middle and high class incomes. Unfortunately, when you deal with public policies, you have to take it into account.

I don't understand your mention of "industry" on your comment, unless that you consider crops as industrial goods.

Andres

Argento
08-16-08, 16:54
This is just an example of how difficult is to tax middle and high class incomes. Unfortunately, when you deal with public policies, you have to take it into account.

I don't understand your mention of "industry" on your comment, unless that you consider crops as industrial goods.

AndresYou have a great misunderstanding about what is income, (profit) and what is cash-flow. Income, (profit) is what you have left after your costs. This is the only country in my experience that seeks to tax cash-flow, irrespective of profit. At some stage, and with the decline in soy prices, after selling their products, all the income will be main-lined to the government. If it is such a great idea, why not apply it to all businesses across the board? Confiscate 45% of all the cash-flow from all of the businesses. Boy, wouldn't there be some pot-banging then. Methinks this is the Peronist class-war; the workers against the landed gentry, represented in a different guise. And the nation generally as a whole, Andres being part of the group of exceptions, didn't buy it. It just proves that Rock Harder's old boss was perhaps a triffle harsh in saying how stupid Argentinos are. Enough rebelled against the Peronist camp so maybe there is some hope. But obviously not for you Andres. You still have your cock firmly in your paw, peddling such socialist crap. If socialism is the answer, give us a pointer in the direction of just one country where it has been as successful as the Western democracies? And incidently, the reality is that broad-acre crops are an industrial product.

Argento

Andres
08-16-08, 19:26
Industry, was thought in terms of production. Maybe it is not the correct term, but the agriculture is a form of industry, Its production is industrialized, in its extension there are plants (factories) that make flour and oil from the seeds.

The big exporters are surely making a fortune. The primary fault of the tax, was that it was based on the revenue rather than the profit. That is why it was so unfair for small producers, apart from being so high.The problem with using the term industry in this case is that, paradoxically, many farmers are leaving "production" of milk and meat to planting and exporting soy, because the latter is much more profitable and demands much less investment in terms of manpower. In fact one of the concerns of letting farmers getting away with a "low" sliding scale is that prices of basic foods such as milk and meat will rise given the surge in internal demand and stagnating productions levels.

Andres

Andres
08-16-08, 19:36
You have a great misunderstanding about what is income, (profit) and what is cash-flow. Income, (profit) is what you have left after your costs.Wrong. Income and profit are two different concepts.


At some stage, and with the decline in soy prices, after selling their products, all the income will be main-lined to the government.Wrong. That would happen with a fixed, high tax rate, not with a sliding one. In fact, many members of FAA wonder what they had to gain with rejecting the proposal sent to the Congress, since now they are worse off with a fixed 35% tax rate.


Methinks this is the Peronist class-war; the workers against the landed gentry, represented in a different guise.There is a class struggle, that's for sure. We already discussed it.


And incidently, the reality is that broad-acre crops are an industrial product.

ArgentoNot in the way Rock tried to refer to since, with the exception of soy oil, they are not transformed or manufactured in Argentina, merely exported as crops.

Andres

Julio
08-16-08, 23:53
It just proves that Rock Harder's old boss was perhaps a triffle harsh in saying how stupid Argentinos are.

ArgentoOK. Argento, you try to sound smart insulting one time after the other the Argentine people like that, but the true is that I've never seen in my life so resentful and dumb a fellow as you.

No wonder you paid U$S 10.000 of a bribe no one, with a minimun of common sense, would have ever paid.

Daddy Rulz
08-17-08, 03:40
OK. Argento, you try to sound smart insulting one time after the other the Argentine people like that, but the true is that I've never seen in my life so resentful and dumb a fellow as you.

No wonder you paid U$S 10.000 of a bribe no one, with a minimun of common sense, would have ever paid.I honestly swear to God don't mean to offend, but this again is so typically Argentine. Not that the bribe in and of itself is wrong, but rather that you paid too big of a bribe. So appropriate for this thread.

In most developed countries, it's against the law not only to receive a bribe but to pay one as well. Not saying good, not saying bad. I will say though that I think it harms your country, 1 dollar or 10,000 dollars. The entire culture of corruption will forever limit Argentina in it's development.

Which is great for me because, like Dickhead, I don't want to bank or own a business there, just live and fuck lots of cute girls. I hope it never changes. Bring on the next crisis!

Argento
08-17-08, 10:42
Can we put a sock in our respective mouths?

We are poles apart and will never convince the opposing side to ammend their views.

As this is my last post on this particular issue, I give you, the 'deluded duo', last reply. My question is a simple one.

Why is it that Argentinians have a per capita income 6 times less than the USA and Australia, given that they had a 100 year start on the USA and 300 years start on Australia, with equal if not better natural resources to begin with?

Argento

Julio
08-17-08, 13:12
Can we put a sock in our respective mouths?

We are poles apart and will never convince the opposing side to ammend their views.That's the first sensible thing I hear from you.

But I remind you who began with the aggressions.


As this is my last post on this particular issue, I give you, the 'deluded duo', last reply. My question is a simple one.

Why is it that Argentinians have a per capita income 6 times less than the USA and Australia, given that they had a 100 year start on the USA and 300 years start on Australia, with equal if not better natural resources to begin with?Does THAT, perhaps, explain why YOU paid a bribe no one with an I. Q. Standard of intelligence would have ever paid?

Don't jump into a train that you never participate in its construction.

Maradona made the best gol of the World Cup history, but not for that I'll consider myself the King of Futbol. In fact, I play it very bad. You should read a little more about the construction of the capital in the developed nations. The operation wasn't so clear and un-corrupt as you imply it were.

Julio
08-17-08, 13:40
I honestly swear to God don't mean to offend, but this again is so typically Argentine. Not that the bribe in and of itself is wrong, but rather that you paid too big of a bribe. So appropriate for this thread.

In most developed countries, it's against the law not only to receive a bribe but to pay one as well. Not saying good, not saying bad. I will say though that I think it harms your country, 1 dollar or 10,000 dollars. The entire culture of corruption will forever limit Argentina in it's development.

Which is great for me because, like Dickhead, I don't want to bank or own a business there, just live and fuck lots of cute girls. I hope it never changes. Bring on the next crisis!Daddy, here's something about corruption in the United States of America.:

http://www.world-of-wisdom.com/04_articles/2002/05_corruption.htm

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-01-03-abramoff-side_x.htm

http://iiipublishing.blogspot.com/2007/05/corruption-in-usa.html

http://www.methuen.k12.ma.us/pathfinders/Political%20Corruption.htm

and a youtube direction when you get tired of reading:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CJuvNJyTT8

Daddy Rulz
08-17-08, 14:38
Daddy, here's something about corruption in the United States of America.:

http://www.world-of-wisdom.com/04_articles/2002/05_corruption.htm

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-01-03-abramoff-side_x.htm

http://iiipublishing.blogspot.com/2007/05/corruption-in-usa.html

http://www.methuen.k12.ma.us/pathfinders/Political%20Corruption.htm

and a youtube direction when you get tired of reading:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CJuvNJyTT8Most of these guys are in jail, not at home missing a little of the money they stole because they were able to pay their way out of jail. Though to be fair, OJ did the same, but his wife was a Gringa so no big deal just one less gold digging frigid white chick to pollute the landscape.

You're right Maradona did score one of the coolest goals in World Cup history. Not exactly sure what that has to do with corruption in Argentina but it is true none the less.

Oh yes, I almost forgot, you told Argento, how did you say that, oh yea "You should read a little more about the construction of the capital in the developed nations." At the turn of the 19th century Argentina had the highest per capita income in the entire world, it was THE developed country. So what happened besides Peron and the corrupt legacy He left behind to leave it where it is today, one first world city in a third world country?

Honestly, I hope you guys never wise up, I swear I do. It's in my best interests for the country to stay as fucked up, I love it just like it is. Just don't try to tell me it's not fucked up when it is brother.

Best wishes, good luck in life, good luck in business, saludos a tu familia y besos para tus padres.

Julio
08-17-08, 16:05
Most of these guys are in jail, not at home missing a little of the money they stole because they were able to pay their way out of jail. If corruption involves appropiating things by force, and if the term "things" involves entire countries where succulent oil wells exists, then the President of the United States of America must be The Bigger Corrupt of the Whole World, Daddy. And as longs as I know, he's free.


At the turn of the 19th century Argentina had the highest per capita income in the entire world, it was THE developed country. So what happened besides Peron and the corrupt legacy He left behind to leave it where it is today, one first world city in a third world country?In fact, the problem is exactly the opposite: a third world city in a first food producer country.


Best wishes, good luck in life, good luck in business, saludos a tu familia why besos para tus padres.Thank you. My regards to your family too.

Daddy Rulz
08-17-08, 16:27
If corruption involves appropiating things by force, and if the term "things" involves entire countries where succulent oil wells exists, then the President of the United States of America must be The Bigger Corrupt of the Whole World, Daddy.You will know that we are in complete agreement, George W is the second worst President in my country's history, beaten only by the singular President from my home State James Buchanan. He openly sold access to, and favors from, the Oval Office. I think W is more evil than corrupt though. The Penguin now that's the corrupt mother fucker. (Sorry Jax, but it's my opinion and we still live in the land of the somewhat free and home of the kinda brave)

You guys are still way, way ahead. Can't mention Iraq without opening yourself up to the political reasons behind the invasion of the Malvinas brother. The dying remnants of a corrupt regime starting a war, sending ill equipped young men to die for a worthless cause, in order to generate political support. Sound familiar?

The funny (funny tragic, not funny haha) part was they actually expected the EEUU to come in on the side of Argentina against England. I know we were grossly in violation of the treaty existing between EEUU and Argentina (I forget it's name but like NATO between the countries of N America and S America) in supplying the targeting data for that missile that sank that Argentine ship. While I respect the memory of the men that died on it, anybody who thinks we won't trash all treaties when England is involved is delusional.

Other weird thing, turns out there was oil around the Malvinas all the time. Kind of makes you go hmmmm. That was 20 years before Iraq brother.

Schmoj
08-17-08, 17:38
Can't mention Iraq without opening yourself up to the political reasons behind the invasion of the Malvinas brother. The dying remnants of a corrupt regime starting a war, sending ill equipped young men to die for a worthless cause, in order to generate political support. Sound familiar? Are you really comparing Iraq and Malvinas? Come on, brother.:-)

Jackson
08-17-08, 18:11
Julio offers the typical Argentine response when anyone suggests that corruption in Argentina is the difference between the USA and the Argentine economies. They'll discount the crippling effect of corruption here by citing some isolated examples of corruption in the USA, without actually addressing the question as to why the Argentina economy is always in the toilet.

Okay Julio, I'll ask the question more directly:

"Assuming that corruption is as rampant in the USA as it is in Argentina, then how, given essentially the same natural resources and the same immigrant population over essentially the same period of time, did the USA build the world's strongest economy while Argentine lurches from one economic collapse to another?"

Thanks,

Jackson

Daddy Rulz
08-17-08, 18:13
Are you really comparing Iraq and Malvinas? Come on, brother.:-)There are similarities I think, but my reason for painting this picture was because Julio said that Bush going to war in Iraq was a corrupt act in that is was like Grand Larceny between nation states (to steal Tom Clancy's definition of war) I think there are, in that limited sense, parallels between Iraq and The Malvinas, so I made the comparison. I adamantly believe that they were both ill conceived, poorly executed, and doomed to fail attempts at gunboat diplomacy.

I have been in opposition to the Iraq invasion (part 2) since the build up. I won't argue this fact with any members of the board in this venue because my mind is as closed to change as theirs are. I only stated this in response to your politely (thank you very much) phrased question. The war in Iraq wasn't ever about stability in the region, WMDs, or liberating the Iraqi people. It was and is about oil and money. I'm not against either, I just hate it when somebody pisses in my ear and tells me it's raining. I do think however in some delusional place in their world view the Axis of Evil (Rhumsfeld, Chaney, and Wolfiwitz) honestly thought that after we had boots on the ground in Baghdad that somehow everything through some magical process would just be hunkey dorey, hence no real or effective planning for any period of time since Sadams statue got pulled down.

Before I get painted as some neo hippy, communist faggot cheese eating surrender monkey by the right wing reactionaries on this board. I was in support of Iraq 1, and the invasion of Afghanistan. I also said, again before the invasion during the bullshit Clinton was doing in Iraq, that if we are going to do anything there (not advocating that we should) we should level the fucking country and declare it the 51st state. Bringing in Starbucks, McDonald's, big fat N American families and great big fucking Army bases. The very minute we leave that country some new strong man will be dictator for life, I only hope he's pro us (meaning the US of A) because I won't lie, I like 3.00 a gallon gas better than 4.00.

I won't respond further to any flames about this post on this board and will delete this post tomorrow. I'm digging the discusion about corruption in S America, and would like to see it continue. If you want to flame me do it in "American Politics" I can ignore you (universal you, not Schmoj you, thanks again for being polite in your opposition) just as easily there as I can here.

Daddy Rulz
08-17-08, 18:19
Julio offers the typical Argentine response when anyone suggests that corruption in Argentina is the difference between the USA and the Argentine economies. They'll discount the crippling effect of corruption here by citing some isolated examples of corruption in the USA, without actually addressing the question as to why the Argentina economy is always in the toilet.

Okay Julio, I'll ask the question more directly:

"Assuming that corruption is as rampant in the USA as it is in Argentina, then how is it, given essentially the same natural resources and the same immigrant population over essentially the same period of time, did the USA build the world's strongest economy while Argentine lurches from one economic collapse to another?"

Thanks, JacksonI fear however you will have as much luck finding an Argentine to answer this question directly as Diogenes did in finding an honest man, but keep the lamp lit.

Julio
08-17-08, 18:38
Julio offers the typical Argentine response when anyone suggests that corruption in Argentina is the difference between the USA and the Argentine economies. They'll discount the crippling effect of corruption here by citing some isolated examples of corruption in the USA,...(...)(Come on, Jackson, I've only copied a few internet sites of the 2.085 pages Google has to offer about corruption in the U. S. A. It was nearly noon and I was hungry for lunch.


Okay Julio, I'll ask the question more directly:

"Assuming that corruption is as rampant in the USA as it is in Argentina, then how it is, given essentially the same natural resources and the same immigrant population over essentially the same period of time, did the USA build the world's strongest economy while Argentine lurches from one economic collapse to another?"Then, as you yourself have exposed the reasoning, must be because U.S.A. is MORE corrupt than Argentina.

Let's see: corruption involves essentialy money. The more money you have the more potentialy corrupt you are (not YOU, Jackson, God forbid! I am talking in an impersonal way. I make clear this because everyone here is so susceptible...) More money, as everybody knows in this capitalist world, means more power. Some said "absolute power begets absolute corruption". The initial accumulation of capital made by the U. S. A. In the XIXth. And XXth. Century (by legal and ilegal mediums, I. E. The appropiation of half the Mexican territory by force, the absolute obscure affaires in Centroamerica, mostly by the United Fruit Co. The putting and drawing puppet presidents all over South America for their own economical interests, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera), made that difference.

Should I continue?

If there's corruption around here, nowadays, the U. S. A. Have been a good theacher. We've been modest pupils.

But let me say this, Jackson, as long as you seemed to look at the topic in not the Homero Simpson's way many of the mongers here look at it, that's it "Ho, ho! Let's hope everything goes wrong so I can fuck, with my dollars many Recoleta gatos, and buy a lot of Recoleta departments. Ho, ho!".

Let me point out this:

I never said there wasn't any corruption in Argentina.

There's a lot of corruption.

Like there's a lot of corruption in every other capitalist country (and yes, that's true: in non capitalists countries too) But that implies that ALL WE HERE, in this beautiful country, are corrupt? That corruption permeades every one of us like an Original Sin from long before we're born, and everyone of us, don't matter what we do, no matter the education we had, must carry that corruption-stigma along our lives until the final grave? I think that not. I think saying that is a mistake. I've lived in this country much more than any one of you, because I'm fifty years old and I was born here, and though I been sometime in Europe I lived all my life in Argentina. I lived and worked in many places of Argentina, from Misiones to Puerto Madryn. I meet argentine people everyday, for work reasons and for fun, and I may say with a very low margin of error that they're a long way from been corrupt. And for whom reading the things some of AP mongers wrote in this foro will be an injustice. For not to say an insult. And that's the reason why I took the trouble of answer the incongruities many of you have written. O. K. Yes, when there were too incongurent I didn't take the trouble.

The second point is, that some of you had suffered a bad experience with some corrupt argentines, does this allow you to insult us in general? Call all the argentines "stupid that don't know they're stupid", make delirious interpretations of the Falkland's War or the Military Government? Call us all hypocrit, mean, insincere, etc.

I think that one thing doesn't have to do with the other. If you somehow had a bad experience with a corrupt guy, try to resolve it, denounce him, in last case beat the hell out of him. But not call EVERYBODY corrupt. Because that will be a bad example of inducting reasoning. And as our friend Karl Popper once said, that's not the correct way to reach the truth.

What I tried to say here, forgive me for the lenght, is that although I've read the complains of almost everyone of you, I don't see in my everyday life, when I meet foreign people from every other part of the world, and I used to met a lot of them because I work in a TV Channel, that they complain and mourn about this country in the way you AP mongers seems to do. Maybe ALL the mourners are here, and ALL the non mourners are out and don't write in this blog, but that will be a very very strange situation.

I will repeat it for the 100th. Time: come on, this place is not so bad as you want to depict it. There are some corruption here, as in elsewhere, but we're not ALL corrupt and not so bad people. Try to look everything with new eyes.

And I'll repeat, also, my sincere invitation: I'd be happy if anyone of you wants to share a beer with me to talk about this, or every other thing you want.

Daddy Rulz
08-17-08, 19:26
I have many Argentine friends and can agree that most are honest and hard working people.

I think your reaction to the bribe Argento paid gives insight to the differences in our cultures. I think having to bribe a paid government employee is wrong and should be punished. You thought his bribe was too high, you may as well think the existence of the bribe is wrong as well but accept it is a way of life there.

My self and most N Americans and N. Europeans think this acceptance of corruption contributes to an atmosphere of that makes situational business ethics pervasive. Whether that's Aerolinas charging tourists a different rate than Argentines or the waiter knowingly saving his trucho bills, or worse yet purchasing trucho bills to pass on to tourists that most likely won't notice them. This acceptance of corruption is pervasive in Argentina, and more in BsAs than Provincia. And the majority of us (N Americans and N Europeans) think that this acceptance works to Argentina's detriment not advantage.

I personally do not pass judgment, I'm not joking when I say I like it as it is. I think it's one of the reasons families and friends are so much closer there than they are here, so like anything else there are pluses and minuses.

I don't know what the word dilerant means regarding the war so I can't respond.

Again saludos to your family.

Abrazo che

Dickhead
08-17-08, 19:54
"It was nearly noon and I was hungry for lunch" so I did a half-ass job because obviously lunch is more important than working, saving, studying, or investing. Lunch benefits me right now, while all that working and saving stuff takes way too long.

This behavior is consistent with what you would expect in a highly inflationary economy. A "fuck tomorrow" strategy is pretty attractive in times of high inflation!

El Perro
08-17-08, 20:19
Phone call for Mr. Delay!

Paging Mr. Delay!

Mr. Delay?

Jackson
08-17-08, 23:28
Then, as you yourself have exposed the reasoning, must be because U. S. A. Is MORE corrupt than Argentina.

Let's see: corruption involves essentialy money. The more money you have the more potentialy corrupt you are (not YOU, Jackson, God forbid! I am talking in an impersonal way. I make clear this because everyone here is so susceptible. More money, as everybody knows in this capitalist world, means more power. Some said "absolute power begets absolute corruption". The initial accumulation of capital made by the U. S. A. In the XIXth. And XXth. Century (by legal and ilegal mediums, I. E. The appropiation of half the Mexican territory by force, the absolute obscure affaires in Centroamerica, mostly by the United Fruit Co. The putting and drawing puppet presidents all over South America for their own economical interests, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera) made that difference.

Should I continue?

If there's corruption around here, nowadays, the U. S. A. Have been a good theacher. We've been modest pupils.Let me see if I understand this: The USA is responsible for the corruption in Argentina?

ROTFLMAO!

BTW, you still didn't answer my question, so I'll post it again for you consideration:

"Assuming that corruption is as rampant in the USA as it is in Argentina, then what is the reason, given essentially the same natural resources and the same immigrant population over essentially the same period of time, did the USA build the world's strongest economy while Argentine lurches from one economic collapse to another?"

Thanks,

Jackson

Andres
08-18-08, 00:03
Why is it that Argentinians have a per capita income 6 times less than the USA and Australia, given that they had a 100 year start on the USA and 300 years start on Australia, with equal if not better natural resources to begin with?

ArgentoTo start with, Argentina didn't have "a start" as early as you mentioned. The definite national "organization" started at 1853, not when the Spaniards arrived.

As strange as it may sound, the fact that "making a living" in Argentina wasn't as hard as in Northeastern US or Australia partially explains the choices made by elites and the social structure and organization, with their implicit and explicit rules. Said differently, Argentina isn't the way it is DESPITE the natural resources at hand but BECAUSE OF the natural resources at hand.

It's long and complex to explain, and I'm afraid that you wouldn't be open enough to deserve my time and effort.

Andres

Andres
08-18-08, 00:08
At the turn of the 19th century Argentina had the highest per capita income in the entire world, it was THE developed country. Having a high per-capita income doesn't means that the country is developed. Current cases of several Persian Gulf monarchies prove that.

If Argentina has been such a heaven before 1945 as conservatives like to repeat, why did such a social process as Peronismo appear in scene?

Andres

Aqualung
08-18-08, 00:12
Carrefour Story #1: Sign says, "15% off on X, Y, and Z if you use any debit card. " X happens to be "bebidas" so I buy a bunch of booze, go to the check out counter, hand over my VISA debit card, and get no discount. "Why? " I ask. "This is not a debit card. " "It says 'debit' right on it, right here (pointing) " "Well, our system says it's a credit card. " "How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? " "Five. " "No, four, because calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg. " I have a bank account in the US and I have a Visa debit card from this bank. The big problem (and Visa should see to this) is here it appears on the system as a credit card even offering payment in installments. So this is a problem you are always going to get when using a debit card from a US bank. The cashier couldn't give a shit about what the card has printed on it. The system is telling her that it's a credit card and that is what it's going to say when she closes her till when her shift is over.

And as you very correctly say calling a tail a leg is not going to make it into a five legged dog and in this case you calling your card debit isn't going to make it a debit card if Visa insist on telling the cashier it's a credit card especially if the 15% discount she "wrongly" gave you is going to come from her pocket.

Daddy Rulz
08-18-08, 00:29
To start with, Argentina didn't have "a start" as early as you mentioned. The definite national "organization" started at 1853, not when the Spaniards arrived.

As strange as it may sound, the fact that "making a living" in Argentina wasn't as hard as in Northeastern US or Australia partially explains the choices made by elites and the social structure and organization, with their implicit and explicit rules. Said differently, Argentina isn't the way it is DESPITE the natural resources at hand but BECAUSE OF the natural resources at hand.

It's long and complex to explain, and I'm afraid that you wouldn't be open enough to deserve my time and effort.

AndresDue to the abundance of natural resources they had no need to develop industrially because life wasn't hard enough to require a change. They had plenty of food, plenty of wine, lots of immigrants to do the nasty work and I'm sure even then tons of good pussy. Am I tracking you?

As far as why Peronism was able to rise and flourish I think because until then everybody ignored the peasants. Then he started giving them stuff, free stuff, until then their really wasn't a middle class. Then Eva founded the free University and education was more readily available to poor people, middle class started to developed because poor people started getting skill sets and had something the market would pay for. Unfortunately the nepotisim, corruption, and something for nothing programs came before the education. And really isn't that the basis for all corruption, wanting to make a living without working?

I'm probably wrong, but that's my impression.

Andres I am always open to listening to what you have to say. You're a voice of experience and reason here. We have never met but I know your CV from people who's opinions I trust.

If you don't feel like enlightening the entire forum drop me a pm and I'll give you my email. I'll read any lecture regarding Argentine history from 1900-the present that you would care to prepare. I've read some but most of the English stuff is from a Norte perspective and my Castellano isn't good enough to clearly understand the books I can buy down there.

Miami Bob
08-18-08, 01:44
Not all members of this forum have knee jerk reactions to the differences in Argentine business practices and political misfeasance from those of the USA or Western Europe. Many of us love many aspects of argentine life and culture and would appreciate your efforts to help us understand this wonderful, but imperfect place we chose to live or frequently visit.

Jackson, Julio is talking about a different type of moral corruption: imperialism
and colonialization of developing nations. There is a fascinating book out: The Confessions of an Economic Hit Man. A former investment banker describes how multinationals suck the economic blood out of third world nations, often with the help of a corrupt local elite. Of course in many nations that corrupt local elite are just lined-up with their hands out.

Andres, please take the time to share your insights. Your postings are one of my favorite part of this forum. Thanks Jackson!

Argento
08-18-08, 10:08
To start with, Argentina didn't have "a start" as early as you mentioned. The definite national "organization" started at 1853, not when the Spaniards arrived.

It's long and complex to explain, and I'm afraid that you wouldn't be open enough to deserve my time and effort.

AndresWell that's sort of pooped on the Argentine position of their claim to soveignty over the Falklands island. Very difficult to lay such a claim if you are not yet started as a nation.

Argento

Tiny12
08-18-08, 13:43
Jackson, Julio is talking about a different type of moral corruption: imperialism.

And colonialization of developing nations. There is a fascinating book out: The Confessions of an Economic Hit Man. A former investment banker describes how multinationals suck the economic blood out of third world nations, often with the help of a corrupt local elite. Of course in many nations that corrupt local elite are just lined-up with their hands out. Ha! I don't know Argentina very well, but I know the price of cement and phone service in Mexico is close to the highest in the world and the oil industry there is in dismal shape, because the multinationals have been kept out. I could give you other examples from other developing nations. This plays right into the hands of the local elite. They can keep their prices high when they don't have any competition. And it's the consumers and the poor that suffer. It plays into the hands of the Mexican politicians too. They can preserve the oil wealth for the pueblo and keep the evil multinationals out of the cement industry. But this means the poor have to pay out the gazoo to build a house and the country doesn't get nearly the benefits it should out of its natural resources.

Julio claims capitalism is the problem in Argentina -- it's not. The problem is some kind of perverted socialism, where people think they're owed a free lunch. If they don't get their way, they hit the streets, banging their pots and pans, put up roadblocks, etc. And their politicians appear, on the surface at least, to cater to them. They put in price controls, that will bankrupt companies and cause the infrastructure to go to crap. Everybody gets a raise. The government prints more money. Is this really helping the poor? I don't think so. I don't know the Argentine system so well, but you'd think the politicians put on a show of being populists, while they're actually making the corrupt local elite wealthier at the expense of the poor. How else do you explain big gap between rich and poor, a lot bigger than the US? I don't know how this works -- how the politicians in Argentina look like they're the peoples champion while the rich get richer, but suspect it's something like what I described above, about Mexico. Or maybe it's inflation -- I've read that the rich have ways of managing their money to grow it faster than prices while the poor end up getting stuck with worthless pesos or reais

Miami Bob
08-18-08, 14:09
Cemex controls or has a great influence on the market prices in Mexico. Cemex has been buying local cement companies for years. Rinker, in southeast Florida, is owned by Cemex.

Economic hit men may come from many places. Julio thinks only the USA has caused harm to Argentina. Wait to see the surprises that will be coming from China. China is buying land, glaziers, mineral rights. Some of the governors are lined-up with their hands stuck out.

Andres, I try to understand why Chile and Brazil are moving towards a more of "modern"economy[eeuu / western european type model] and Argentinia is floating somewhere off to the side. What is the historical or cultural basis for this?

It seems as if Argentina is caught in some sort of economic quick sand. I truly do not understand.

Andres
08-18-08, 19:45
Due to the abundance of natural resources they had no need to develop industrially because life wasn't hard enough to require a change. They had plenty of food, plenty of wine, lots of immigrants to do the nasty work and I'm sure even then tons of good pussy. Am I tracking you?No. What I mean is that, due to the social structure and the privileged place inside the British economic empire (Argentina provided raw materials and the Brits provided manufactured goods) it wasn't convenient to elites to develop industrially. There were never plenty of food for peasants and blue collars.

I like to say that Argentina is the US version where the Confederation won the Civil War. And if you analyze times of both civil wars, it's not a coincidence at all.


As far as why Peronism was able to rise and flourish I think because until then everybody ignored the peasants. Then he started giving them stuff, free stuff, until then their really wasn't a middle class. Then Eva founded the free University and education was more readily available to poor people, middle class started to developed because poor people started getting skill sets and had something the market would pay for. Unfortunately the nepotisim, corruption, and something for nothing programs came before the education. And really isn't that the basis for all corruption, wanting to make a living without working?

I'm probably wrong, but that's my impression. The political involvement of peasants is somewhat correct. However, public university was always free. During the first 2 Perón terms, there hardly were students from poor families at the UBA, which was a bunker of antiperonist movements. Higher education for people from humble origins were available at what was called Universidad Obrera, today UTN, so Perón didn't granted practical access to university to low-class people.


Andres I am always open to listening to what you have to say. You're a voice of experience and reason here. We have never met but I know your CV from people who's opinions I trust.

If you don't feel like enlightening the entire forum drop me a pm and I'll give you my email. I'll read any lecture regarding Argentine history from 1900-the present that you would care to prepare. I've read some but most of the English stuff is from a Norte perspective and my Castellano isn't good enough to clearly understand the books I can buy down there.Thanks for your compliments.

Robert Potash's books are a good start.

Andres

Andres
08-18-08, 19:52
Well that's sort of pooped on the Argentine position of their claim to soveignty over the Falklands island. Very difficult to lay such a claim if you are not yet started as a nation.

ArgentoNot quite. The British Empire granted recognition of the Argentine independence on 1816, which included the islands held by then by Argentina. The British invasion of Malvinas took place on 1833. In fact, the Argentine government often bring descents from pre-1833 settlers to the UN Decolonization Committee to support its claim.

In any case, declaring independence doesn't automatically means that the country is properly organized in terms of laws and institutions.

Andres

Andres
08-18-08, 19:57
Not all members of this forum have knee jerk reactions to the differences in Argentine business practices and political misfeasance from those of the USA or Western Europe. Many of us love many aspects of argentine life and culture and would appreciate your efforts to help us understand this wonderful, but imperfect place we chose to live or frequently visit.

Jackson, Julio is talking about a different type of moral corruption: imperialism.

And colonialization of developing nations. There is a fascinating book out: The Confessions of an Economic Hit Man. A former investment banker describes how multinationals suck the economic blood out of third world nations, often with the help of a corrupt local elite. Of course in many nations that corrupt local elite are just lined-up with their hands out.

Andres, please take the time to share your insights. Your postings are one of my favorite part of this forum. Thanks Jackson!Thanks for your words.

The best way to understand why things happen the way they do is to read a lot. Many scholars contributed by shedding some light over many different aspects of Argentine history, social structure and composition, social mechanisms, international events and processes, ideologies, geography, etc. Hard to summarize them in 10, 20 or even 50 lines.

Andres

Argento
08-18-08, 21:15
Not quite. The British Empire granted recognition of the Argentine independence on 1816, which included the islands held by then by Argentina. The British invasion of Malvinas took place on 1833. In fact, the Argentine government often bring descents from pre-1833 settlers to the UN Decolonization Committee to support its claim.

In any case, declaring independence doesn't automatically means that the country is properly organized in terms of laws and institutions.

AndresFor the record, just in case you think I am not aware of Argentine history, 1816 was the year Congress declared independence of the United Provinces of the River Plate. It did not include Patagonia and certainly not the Falklands. And no mention of Argentina. Either you were in existence prior to 1833 or else after. It seems to me that when it suits you have a long history and when it doesn't suit, you have a short history. Either way, an explicit example of the perverse attitude of Argentines when it comes to discussing facts. I don't care either way you jump. As long as your arse hole points to the ground and I am sure a good deal longer, the Falklands will not be Argentinian. And the longer your nation perseveres with its unwarranted claims, the longer it will take to grow up. So give us an explicit date when Euopeans settled in parts of what is now Argentina. Most record say 1516 by Cabot with others defining it as 1530. I'll take your date so in future we will have one agreed statement of fact.

Argento

Andres
08-18-08, 22:54
For the record, just in case you think I am not aware of Argentine history, 1816 was the year Congress declared independence of the United Provinces of the River Plate. It did not include Patagonia and certainly not the Falklands.The Malvinas were occupied by an Argentine garrison by then. Captain Vernet was its last commander there.


And no mention of Argentina. Either you were in existence prior to 1833 or else after. It seems to me that when it suits you have a long history and when it doesn't suit, you have a short history.My point is that there is no sense to compare countries as an accumulation of GDP versus accumulation of years of history, as if the effect of different colonizers, independence patriots, leaders, etc, were all the same in different circumstances and geographies.

Argentina declared independence in 1816 and established its definite constitution by 1953. The US didn't have such a 37 year gap, since internal US conflicts appeared and / or were managed differently or at different points in time.

Andres

Schmoj
08-18-08, 23:23
The Malvinas were occupied by an Argentine garrison by then. Captain Vernet was its last commander there.Andres, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but if Argentina has a legitimate claim to the Falklands / Malvinas, wouldn't it also make sense for Paraguay to make a claim for territory taken by military force between 1864-1870?

Bolivia might as well make a claim for their coast and Mexico might as well make a claim for Aztlan (aka Califorrnia). You see where I am going with this, I guess ....

Andres
08-19-08, 00:35
Andres, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but if Argentina has a legitimate claim to the Falklands / Malvinas, wouldn't it also make sense for Paraguay to make a claim for territory taken by military force between 1864-1870?

Bolivia might as well make a claim for their coast and Mexico might as well make a claim for Aztlan (aka Califorrnia) You see where I am going with this, I guess.Sure, everybody can claim anything, but the fact is that Argentina IS claiming and that the UN Decolonization Committee took the case and considered it. Also, the UN submits to vote the Malvinas case every year, and every year Argentina's position is supported by 160-180 states and a few against (the Commonwealth ones, mainly) so a big part of the "diplomatic" fight was already won.

Will the island come back to national control? Maybe, maybe not. Time will say.

Andres

Flexible Horn
08-19-08, 02:41
Will the island come back to national control? Maybe, maybe not. Time will say.

AndresNOT IN THE NEXT 1000 YEARS!

Argento
08-19-08, 09:59
Sure, everybody can claim anything, but the fact is that Argentina IS claiming and that the UN Decolonization Committee took the case and considered it. Also, the UN submits to vote the Malvinas case every year, and every year Argentina's position is supported by 160-180 states and a few against (the Commonwealth ones, mainly) so a big part of the "diplomatic" fight was already won.

Will the island come back to national control? Maybe, maybe not. Time will say.

AndresThe islands have never been under national control so how can they come back? But the English settled it before people from the River Plate. Shouldn't they have precedence. And think of those that live there now. What attractions do you think they would find being part of Argentina?

At they moment they have next to the highest per capita income in the world, political freedom, a great education system, a concerted and a set of possible goals for the future, (and I hate to tell you, it doesn't include Argentina) no corruption and almost no crime. Versus what?

Since you are the Mary Poppins of the good in Argentina, perhaps you could tell us what the Argentines offer the Falkland Islanders. I guess apart from a currish attitude to flights between Argentina and the Islands, no flights allowed and no trade either. Absolutely zilch. Great way to build confidence between neighbours, especially when you are Argentina and are trying to get into the Falkland Island's knickers again. You have already raped them once, so my guess is you need to kiss and cuddle if you want even a slight chance. But please answer my question above.

Argento

Easy Go
08-19-08, 15:14
I can't believe you guys are pissing and moaning about these islands. After visiting them, it's hard to believe that anybody considers them a "prize" to be won. The only reason the residents enjoy the things that Argento lists is because the UK and EU government pump huge amounts of money into the islands. If Argentina gained control, that would stop, the fishery license fees that are the largest part of the government income would get redirected to the mainland, employment would disappear, and the place would turn into an economic disaster area.

The best thing for the islanders is to remain a disputed territory between Argentina and the UK. If there was no dispute, the UK would not feel a pressing need to keep sending money to the islands so Argentina is doing a great service to the islanders to keep making noises without any real change.

Of course, the rational thing would be to abandon the islands as economic sinkholes and move everybody (except the 20% of the workforce that comes from Chile) to an island that's part of the motherland (I hear Scotland has some with equally horrible weather and economic opportunity) Argentina could then claim the islands and, instead of settling them, declare them nature sanctuaries and open them only to scientific research. Of course, the islanders wouldn't go for it because they have a sweet deal going now.

Daddy Rulz
08-19-08, 15:44
I can't believe you guys are pissing and moaning about these islands. After visiting them, it's hard to believe that anybody considers them a "prize" to be won. The only reason the residents enjoy the things that Argento lists is because the UK and EU government pump huge amounts of money into the islands. If Argentina gained control, that would stop, the fishery license fees that are the largest part of the government income would get redirected to the mainland, employment would disappear, and the place would turn into an economic disaster area.

The best thing for the islanders is to remain a disputed territory between Argentina and the UK. If there was no dispute, the UK would not feel a pressing need to keep sending money to the islands so Argentina is doing a great service to the islanders to keep making noises without any real change.

Of course, the rational thing would be to abandon the islands as economic sinkholes and move everybody (except the 20% of the workforce that comes from Chile) to an island that's part of the motherland (I hear Scotland has some with equally horrible weather and economic opportunity) Argentina could then claim the islands and, instead of settling them, declare them nature sanctuaries and open them only to scientific research. Of course, the islanders wouldn't go for it because they have a sweet deal going now.http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,334165,00.html

Maybe they have WMDs as well.

Easy Go
08-19-08, 16:49
I figured someone would bring up oil. Note the date. As far as I can tell, the only activity is talk. Given the aggressiveness of oil companies and the zillions of dollars that can be made from a huge new discovery, what's that tell you about the reality? Just another red herring designed to make the islands look like they are worth the money they are costing the British taxpayer.

Andres
08-19-08, 19:36
I can't believe you guys are pissing and moaning about these islands. After visiting them, it's hard to believe that anybody considers them a "prize" to be won. The only reason the residents enjoy the things that Argento lists is because the UK and EU government pump huge amounts of money into the islands. If Argentina gained control, that would stop, the fishery license fees that are the largest part of the government income would get redirected to the mainland, employment would disappear, and the place would turn into an economic disaster area.

The best thing for the islanders is to remain a disputed territory between Argentina and the UK. If there was no dispute, the UK would not feel a pressing need to keep sending money to the islands so Argentina is doing a great service to the islanders to keep making noises without any real change.

Of course, the rational thing would be to abandon the islands as economic sinkholes and move everybody (except the 20% of the workforce that comes from Chile) to an island that's part of the motherland (I hear Scotland has some with equally horrible weather and economic opportunity) Argentina could then claim the islands and, instead of settling them, declare them nature sanctuaries and open them only to scientific research. Of course, the islanders wouldn't go for it because they have a sweet deal going now.The islands are more of a national pride issue than anything else. Just transportation by itself would be very expensive, not to mention the premium claimed by the unavoidably complex supply chain.

Anyone having visited Tierra del Fuego can say that many vegetables and other goods brought from the continent cost much more than in Buenos Aires.

Oil looks promising, but the UK would find it difficult to convince investors given that is a conflictive zone.

Andres

Andres
08-19-08, 19:52
Andres, I try to understand why Chile and Brazil are moving towards a more of "modern"economy[eeuu / western european type model] and Argentinia is floating somewhere off to the side. What is the historical or cultural basis for this?I don't see many great differences among these 3 countries. To a higher or lesser degree, all these economies are mainly private-sector based with a few strategic companies on the public sector, with a GDP midway to those of the poor African nations and those of Western European countries.

Andres

Argento
08-19-08, 22:50
I don't see many great differences among these 3 countries. To a higher or lesser degree, all these economies are mainly private-sector based with a few strategic companies on the public sector, with a GDP midway to those of the poor African nations and those of Western European countries.

AndresOooooooooooh! I know that's not right. Poor African nations have a GDP per capita of U$500 -U$1000 pa. The Latin American countries have about U$7000. Western Europeans about U$45000. Midway is therefore about U$22000 and Argentina is a longway from the midway point.

But please answer my questions relating to the Falklands / Malvinas.

Argento

Easy Go
08-20-08, 02:08
A matter of national pride? Asserting sovereignty over some desolate islands in the middle of nowhere with negative economic value that have only brought pain and suffering to the people of Argentina? That's really messed up.

Easy Go
08-20-08, 02:34
According to 2007 CIA Factbook:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html

GDP pp in US dollars.

Qatar - 80,900 (#1)

USA - 45,800

Netherlands 38,500

UK 35,300 (#28 so a bit short of "the next to the highest per capital income in the world)

Falkland Islands 25,000 (#49 but 2002 numbers)

Chile 13,900

Argentina 13,300

Brazil 9,700

Angola 5,600

Congo 3,700

Zimbabwe 200

Of course, as been pointed out GDP per capita doesn't mean much when income is heavily skewed in places like Africa and South America. Also, these numbers are estimates.

As a surrogate for the economic life of the majority of people, I'm not sure it tells us much other than there are a lot of poor people in the world and that GDP differences between Chile, Argentina, and Brazil are not a fruitful area of discussion.

Miami Bob
08-20-08, 05:05
Primarily in the ease of doing business, dumb regulation, the banking systems and ease of moving capital in and out.

I have a little story. One of my business adventures in Argentina involved becoming a North American distibutor for a popular Argenitne food product.

My partner with 30 years in the food business, takes samples to a number of supermarket groups with the intention of the Argentine line becoming a house brand. Every place loved the product and found the price aceptable, but did not want to do business with Argentina. Two groups actually asked me if we could truck the product to Chile and put a lable "from Chile" on the jars. When the Argentine producer would not work through Chile, two supermarkets would only take the products on consignment. This made it impossible to factor the debts and the Argentines could not borrow against the consigned good and eventually killed any chance of being in major supermarket groups.

Even little Uruguay exports more beef than Argentina.

Brazil changed their banking laws to ease mortgage forclosures ie you don't pay and you are thrown out of the house within six months. There are now mortgages avaiable in Brazil. The Argentine banking system is very, very difficult combined with peronists protections of squatters on land equals almost no mortages in Argentina[there are payment plans from developers and limited government programs]

HairBalderman
08-20-08, 05:41
Who learned the best way to throw people from an airplane who weren't on a flight from Atlanta on Delta but who learned from the "flight" school of the Americas. Fala?

Argento
08-20-08, 10:15
According to 2007 CIA Factbook:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html

GDP pp in US dollars.

Qatar - 80,900 (#1)

USA - 45,800

Netherlands 38,500

UK 35,300 (#28 so a bit short of "the next to the highest per capital income in the world)

Falkland Islands 25,000 (#49 but 2002 numbers)

Chile 13,900

Argentina 13,300

Brazil 9,700

Angola 5,600

Congo 3,700

Zimbabwe 200

Of course, as been pointed out GDP per capita doesn't mean much when income is heavily skewed in places like Africa and South America. Also, these numbers are estimates.

As a surrogate for the economic life of the majority of people, I'm not sure it tells us much other than there are a lot of poor people in the world and that GDP differences between Chile, Argentina, and Brazil are not a fruitful area of discussion.My figures are from "The Economist" World figures bookle.

Argento

Jackson
08-20-08, 12:41
Who learned the best way to throw people from an airplane who weren't on a flight from Atlanta on Delta but who learned from the "flight" school of the Americas. Fala?HairBalderman,

Can you eloborate on your statement, because I'm not exactly sure what point you are trying to convey.

Thanks,

Jackson

Jackson
08-20-08, 12:47
Brazil changed their banking laws to ease mortgage forclosures ie you don't pay and you are thrown out of the house within six months. There are now mortgages avaiable in Brazil. The Argentine banking system is very, very difficult combined with peronists protections of squatters on land equals almost no mortages in Argentina [there are payment plans from developers and limited government programs]And as a direct result of the new forclosure laws, Brazil is now experiencing a building boom fueled by middle and lower class first-time buyers lining up to buy new homes with freely available mortages.

Go figure.

Thanks,

Jackson

MCSE
08-20-08, 14:41
"Assuming that corruption is as rampant in the USA as it is in Argentina, then what is the reason, given essentially the same natural resources and the same immigrant population over essentially the same period of time, did the USA build the world's strongest economy while Argentine lurches from one economic collapse to another?"

JacksonLet me provide my theory about this fascinating issue:

We are stand in 2008.

USA it's one of the powerful countries in the world, while Argentina it's just surviving. In terms that affect people, however, quality of life, it's not that good either for low-middle class in Argentina nor for lower middle class in the USA. That's just a comment.

But, how, if both countries were discovered at the same time, one developed a lot, and others (Mexico, Colombia, Peru, Bolivia, etc) are poor countries?

I would say that USA development comes after WW I, and skyrocketed after WW II. Before those wars, immigrants from Europe, immigrated to Argentina and the USA with the same hope. Buenos Aires and NYC had a similar development before 1914, you can see that in the architecture.

Before that, Spaniards only wanted to get rich and get back to Europe with gold and stuff, while the east coast in the US was Colonized seriously. There is the first difference, in the US were more skilled people, while in the rest of the Americas, only thieves and warriors, ignorant people.

The more skilled people, the more possibilities to create added value. The more added value, the best possibilities to generate a strong economy. The more strong economy, the more stability for new investments. Invertors don't want to lose their efforts. The USA had resources as for entering to the WW II while Argentina was too far away, the phisical proximity to Europe made possible the USA participation in the WW II, and the distance made possible it's population to get apart of the war. While European countries took several years to get recovered, the USA had already a strong economy. Capitals moved to the USA instead of Europe or south America, skilled people, labour and a big added value, that makes a stronger economy. While countries like chile takes the copper from the soil and export to the USA, the USA buy that copper and export refrigerators, cars, electronics, helicopters, etc.

We are now in 2008, and if I wanted to start a highly added value company (let's say a highly tecnology helicoper manufacturing factory) and if I have 2 options: USA or Argentina:

In the USA I will find thousands of experienced engineers, Americans, and immigrants, and probably even Argentine engineers, and they will cost more money per hour, perhaps three times more than in Argentina, but those guys will work overtime if required, and they must go home after work and start back the next day.

In Argentina, my engineers will not have a clue, since their last job was as a taxi driver, they will chat each other about girls the whole day and they will end the day celebrating at hook they finally got a job as engineers, the very next day they will be so happy about last night they brains will be memorizing that blow job from Catalina at hook.

In the US I would hire an assistant too, she is so fat and stressed and the arrasement laws are so respected that no one will ever thing about dating the assistant.

In Argentina, the girl is so hot that I will have to dedicate half of the working day to keep the engineers away from her and spend 3 hours at the bulo fucking the assistant.

When importing the helicopter engine I'll have to bribe the customs, otherwise the taxes are so high that only in taxes I'll have to spend more money than the whole helicopter cost.

I'll need providers for the bombs, the electronic controls, assembly software, and the good ones are definetly not in Argentina, but in Italy, Germany, Japan, and I'll have to import those items with a high cost.

I can only paint the helicopter in Argentina (good news, eh! But the painter will charge me more than in the US since he only paints cars, and he will say: what a great job! This is the opportunity of my life! I will charge this bastard as much as I want and finance my vacation to Mar del Plata this year.

For sure the helicopter will be painted after his return from Mar del Plata vacation. Impossible from December to March.

Probably in march, government says: the area where your factory is, it's now only residencial, you have 90 days to move the factory away.

That if the government does not declares a financial crisis, and Argentina does not wins the soccer world coup, that could delay my project for another 90 days.

If I need financing for my project, banks will only finance (in Argentina) a 10% , if I need a high speed internet connection, I'll be paying more than in the US for a reliable one, and as the factory it's located outside of the capital federal, I'll have like 80% running connection, plus, villeros steal the cables, the power and light cables, if I want to move heavy equippment there are just 2 companies, and they only work 3 days per week Monday, Thursday and saturdays, ok, next Monday, no way, it's hollyday the dead of San Martin, The Flag day, the faggots parade, etc.

Eventually, once the project is finished, I will have to pay retenciones for exporting, and when I show my clients the helicopter with an "industria argentina" tag, they will say: what the hell, an argentine helicopter! We will see that next year.

Daddy Rulz
08-20-08, 16:16
I don't agree with MCSE over a lot of issues, but I think he is pretty spot on here. Andres don't you agree? It really illustrates the layers of corruption you would have to work through in order to start any kind of serious manufacturing company and why that is nearly impossible.

Easy Go
08-20-08, 16:24
Argento,

Which number did you take from the Economist, raw GDP per capita or the one that is normalized for "purchasing power parity"? I checked Britain and the ppp number matches the CIA number. The same holds true for Brazil, Chile, and Argentina. If you want to read about ppp, here's a reference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity

It's just a normalization designed to reflect differences in the cost of living is between countries. Ppp vs raw doesn't make much difference for the purpose of this discussion. Chile and Argentina are similar, Brazil trails, and all three fall somewhere between Africa and Europe.

Andres
08-20-08, 19:54
A matter of national pride? Asserting sovereignty over some desolate islands in the middle of nowhere with negative economic value that have only brought pain and suffering to the people of Argentina? That's really messed up.It's not. In fact, both arguments apply to UK (to a much lesser degree) and Argentina. Otherwise, what great advantage get the Brits by supporting the islands?

You have to read about the Beagle channel conflict between Chile and Argentina in 1978, which got very, very close to war. You will find that such a mess was triggered by the soverignty claims over 3 "rocks" (Picton, Nueva and Lennox islands) Under that light, the Malvinas as a national pride issue fits.

Andres

Andres
08-20-08, 20:03
Primarily in the ease of doing business, dumb regulation, the banking systems and ease of moving capital in and out. I'm not very sure about it. Chile, even under Pinochet, put restrictions to the withdrawal of foreign investments in order to avoid financial speculation. Brazil, recently, banned export of rice to control the domestic rice price.


I have a little story. One of my business adventures in Argentina involved becoming a North American distibutor for a popular Argenitne food product.

My partner with 30 years in the food business, takes samples to a number of supermarket groups with the intention of the Argentine line becoming a house brand. Every place loved the product and found the price aceptable, but did not want to do business with Argentina. Two groups actually asked me if we could truck the product to Chile and put a lable "from Chile" on the jars. When the Argentine producer would not work through Chile, two supermarkets would only take the products on consignment. This made it impossible to factor the debts and the Argentines could not borrow against the consigned good and eventually killed any chance of being in major supermarket groups.

Even little Uruguay exports more beef than Argentina.

Brazil changed their banking laws to ease mortgage forclosures ie you don't pay and you are thrown out of the house within six months. There are now mortgages avaiable in Brazil. The Argentine banking system is very, very difficult combined with peronists protections of squatters on land equals almost no mortages in Argentina[there are payment plans from developers and limited government programs]It's easier to import food from Chile, among other things because it has a FTA with the US. However, it can't be possible that Argentina beats export figures year after year ans still a majority not willing to buy Argentine products.

Banking is a lame sector in Argentina, I agree, but unfortunately people fear both private and public banking, the former because of its insolvency proven on Dec. 2001 and the latter because of Govt abuse if the system ever becomes nationalized and monopolistic.

Andres

Easy Go
08-20-08, 21:53
It's not. In fact, both arguments apply to UK (to a much lesser degree) and Argentina. Otherwise, what great advantage get the Brits by supporting the islands?

You have to read about the Beagle channel conflict between Chile and Argentina in 1978, which got very, very close to war. You will find that such a mess was triggered by the soverignty claims over 3 "rocks" (Picton, Nueva and Lennox islands) Under that light, the Malvinas as a national pride issue fits.

AndresThe Brits support the islands because the people living on it are their countrymen. If there had been no islanders, I doubt there would have been a war. Although the actions of other countries are notoriously hard to predict (just ask Georgia)

I'm not denying that it's a national pride issue. I'm arguing that Argentina needs to learn to take actions based on national interest rather than national pride so that actions benefit rather than hurt the country.

They are just like mongers in that they are letting the little head rather than the big head do the thinking.

Andres
08-20-08, 23:47
The Brits support the islands because the people living on it are their countrymen. If there had been no islanders, I doubt there would have been a war. Although the actions of other countries are notoriously hard to predict (just ask Georgia)The support for the islanders is just an excuse. It would be cheaper for the UK to move islanders elsewhere (they don't make it even a small town anywhere else) than to keep such an infrastructure for only a couple thousand people, and specially considering all the negotiations going through before 1982.


I'm not denying that it's a national pride issue. I'm arguing that Argentina needs to learn to take actions based on national interest rather than national pride so that actions benefit rather than hurt the country.

They are just like mongers in that they are letting the little head rather than the big head do the thinking.That argument applies to both sides.

Andres

MCSE
08-21-08, 02:07
I don't agree with MCSE over a lot of issues, but I think he is pretty spot on here. Andres don't you agree? I'm always right DR, the thing is you don't always realize. (just kidding)

Easy Go
08-21-08, 02:46
Perhaps the forced resettlement of a few thousand people is a political possibility in Argentina but I don't think it is in the UK. It might have been barely possible before the war but the lives lost in the war it would make it impossible now. Maybe in 50 years.

The UK has the wealth to indulge in hobbies that Argentina cannot afford.

Seaman
08-21-08, 12:24
If I remember correctly there is an agreement that only countries in the southern hemisphere are allowed to have a base in Antarctica. That could also be a reason for the Brits to keep control of the Malvinas.

I have talked to people who have been involved in the British side of the conflict (the guy who actually pushed the button which fired the torpedo which sank the Belgrano) and with people close to the military government here in Argentina. If you listen to both you hear more or less the same story. It was a "prearranged" war to crank up political support on both sides. But.... Nobody expected that the loss of lives would be as high as it got in the end.

But in view of this thread, was the Malvinas war also a case of corruption on Argentina?

Fernando22
08-21-08, 16:06
Both Mrts. Tatcher and Galtieri fell down after the war.

Anyway reading through most of this post, saved two guys, no locals I see that worry much about what mongers here can say about corruption in Argentina.

Seems like they are mocking you all instead.

We duchts don't care a shit about it.

Just as long as we can fuck the beautiful local women, its O. K. For we.

Easy Go
08-21-08, 16:32
If I remember correctly there is an agreement that only countries in the southern hemisphere are allowed to have a base in Antarctica. That could also be a reason for the Brits to keep control of the Malvinas.Pretty much anybody can have a base in Antarctica that is willing to pay the money to operate it. Over 30 countries have permanent bases including many European countries. There are a number of disputed territorial claims but the US and most other countries don't recognize them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_research_stations_in_Antarctica

Fernando22
08-21-08, 18:03
You guys are a funny bunch.

No argies give a fuck what you gringos may think about corruption, what do you think they care what you can say about Falkands war?

What are you the police of the world?

Jackson
08-21-08, 19:46
What are you the police of the world?Somebody has to do it, and by default the Americans are the only people with the courage to do the job.

One thing for certain, it's not going to be the Argentina military, because they couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

Thanks,

Jackson

Andres
08-21-08, 20:12
Perhaps the forced resettlement of a few thousand people is a political possibility in Argentina but I don't think it is in the UK. It might have been barely possible before the war but the lives lost in the war it would make it impossible now. Maybe in 50 years.Sure.


The UK has the wealth to indulge in hobbies that Argentina cannot afford.Personally, I don't have any problem about them spending money there. In any case, that doesn't discourage Argentina on the sovereignty claim.

Andres

Andres
08-21-08, 20:22
If I remember correctly there is an agreement that only countries in the southern hemisphere are allowed to have a base in Antarctica. That could also be a reason for the Brits to keep control of the Malvinas.That's a strong point. Chile and Argentina claim the Weddell peninsula by using a technical argument (the projection their outermost meridians) In practice, anyone can have a base there (Norway has)

In any case, who can afford anything more than a couple of scientific and military bases? In any case, I deem impossible to settle a large civilian population there on a permanent basis.


I have talked to people who have been involved in the British side of the conflict (the guy who actually pushed the button which fired the torpedo which sank the Belgrano) and with people close to the military government here in Argentina. If you listen to both you hear more or less the same story. It was a "prearranged" war to crank up political support on both sides. But. Nobody expected that the loss of lives would be as high as it got in the end.

But in view of this thread, was the Malvinas war also a case of corruption on Argentina?Yes, it was definitely geared by political survival needs. It proved to be a life-jacket to Maggie and a definite sunk for the Argentine military.

I would tag the "patriotic" Malvinas fundraising as one of the most corrupt events of the Argentine history, given the gap between amounts granted amounts that actually arrived to the soldiers. I still painfully remember the TV spots that showed the pity condition in which Argentine Army privates were found on June 14th 1982 at Puerto Argentino.

Andres

Julio
08-21-08, 20:35
No argies give a fuck what you gringos may think about corruption, what do you think they care what you can say about Falkands war?

What are you the police of the world?
Somebody has to do it, and by default the Americans are the only people with the courage to do the job.Oooh, ahhh, welll, That really, really surpass everything I read in this forum.

And who's supposed to have given the North americans mandataries this power, perhaps God Himself?

With due respect, this kind of paranoia has caused enough harm all around the globe.

Geo Eye
08-21-08, 21:04
You guys are a funny bunch.

No argies give a fuck what you gringos may think about corruption, what do you think they care what you can say about Falkands war?

What are you the police of the world?The problem is that the USA HAS to police third world radical country such as you argies.

You argies do give a fuck, because if it wasn't for the US, you would be much worse off than you are now.

It never ceases to amaze me how ignorant argies are, they have there little dumb ass soccer and they seem to always be complaining about everything and anything, but have no idea what makes the world go around.

Let me let you in on a little secret: it is call the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

Argies are and will always be envious.

Schmoj
08-21-08, 21:16
Let me let you in on a little secret: it is call the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

Argies are and will always be enviousBefore you start waving the stars and strips, think about this: If the US of A is so great, what are you doing here?

Gato Hunter
08-21-08, 22:08
I am surprised that nobody has brought up the selling off of YPF for the price of about 9 months of production.

Now that's corruption in its finest I think.

Andres
08-21-08, 22:32
I am surprised that nobody has brought up the selling off of YPF for the price of about 9 months of production.

Now that's corruption in its finest I think.Exactly, and it's a perfect example as how corruption ultimately works marvels for corporations from countries where practices are supposedly transparent.

Just one distinction: Privatizations mainly favored European companies since their accounting methods and regulations allowed for payment of bribes, while the American ones didn't. That's one of the reasons for not seeing Bell-Verizon, United / Continental and the such.

Andres

Daddy Rulz
08-22-08, 03:00
You guys are a funny bunch.

No argies give a fuck what you gringos may think about corruption, what do you think they care what you can say about Falkands war?

What are you the police of the world?What the fuck is a duchts? You have to mean douche, because you're more than a little bit of a douche bag.

Miami Bob
08-22-08, 06:39
Helping place military dictatorships in a number or latin american countries was not ordained by the all mighty up in heaven, but by paranoid humans on earth.

John Wayne is fun to watch in the movies, but horrifying to watch leading a major international power.

Mike Cockburn
08-22-08, 12:14
There is something called the UN, that preferably should act as the World Police.

I admit that big organisations are slow, but acting too fast is not good either, It would be a shame to have a "shoot first and ask questions later" policy.

Rather than acting as a the Police, sometimes USA gives me the impression to act like an angry lynch mob, taking the law in its own hands rather than waiting for justice.

I must give you (americans) some credit. (as you deserve it) Needless to say, USA plays a very important role in the world. Can anyone imagine the liberation of Kuwait without the participation of USA?

Most of the european countries have very small armies. They are destined to primarily protect the country, not sending troops in a large scale war to far away countries. It would have been almost impossible.

"You have courage to do the job", but the world ask for a bit more consensus.


Somebody has to do it, and by default the Americans are the only people with the courage to do the job.

Thanks,

Jackson

Jackson
08-22-08, 12:57
With due respect, this kind of paranoia has caused enough harm all around the globe.Yea, like that time we attacked France in 1944.

What a bunch of motherfuckers we were then!

Schmoj
08-22-08, 13:01
Can anyone imagine the liberation of Kuwait without the participation of USA? Maybe, but it is also hard to image the invasion of Kuwait without the participation of the USA. Remember the Iran-Iraq war? We pumped a lot of money and arms into Iraq in those days. Not sure how Saddam got on Bush's bad side. Maybe he called Barbara a dirty *****.




"You have courage to do the job", but the world ask for a bit more consensus.I wouldn't call it courage. It really comes down to economics. There are plenty of conflicts in poor countries around the world (I. E. Places that pose no economic potential) that we don't give a rat's ass about.

Jackson
08-22-08, 13:08
With due respect, this kind of paranoia has caused enough harm all around the globe.I like it when dictators, despots and similarly-styled criminals suffer from "this kind of paranoia".

Jackson
08-22-08, 13:11
Before you start waving the stars and strips, think about this: If the US of A is so great, what are you doing here?Fucking their women, of course.

In this category, I agree: The rest of the world has us beat.

Gato Hunter
08-22-08, 13:15
Lets have a reality check.

The reason the US is the worlds police is to keep the arms manufacturers and other huge multinationals in business. Bechtel and Halliburton are some of the biggest winners in the current conflict. The losers are the dead / wounded kids.

War is big business.

Oh and the fact that who ever controls the oil wins helps too.

If I were a betting man (witch I am) I would place a huge wager that within the next 10 years the US will find some reason to move into Africa. Africa is primed for plundering by the big companies. Sort of like Latin America was in the last 20 years.

Dickhead
08-22-08, 13:19
"Can anyone imagine the liberation of Kuwait without the participation of USA?"

Did anybody give a shit about the liberation of Kuwait?

Jes1959
08-22-08, 19:08
If I were a betting man (witch I am) I would place a huge wager that within the next 10 years the US will find some reason to move into Africa. Africa is primed for plundering by the big companies. Sort of like Latin America was in the last 20 years.We are already there. http://www.africom.mil/

Jes

BadMan
08-22-08, 19:32
Fucking their women, of course.

In this category, I agree: The rest of the world has us beat.I concur,

Though my Southern California chicks are still in the running.

Regards,

BM

Geo Eye
08-22-08, 19:37
Before you start waving the stars and strips, think about this: If the US of A is so great, what are you doing here?I am living in The USA, but I do go to buenos aires to fuck cheap young wores.

And I do love the food in argentina.

To be fair, the US is not perfect, we have made mistake and hell, sometimes I am embarrass by Bush and his admisnistration, but some people do not regonized the great oppurtinity thier is in the US.

My whole beef is the ignorance with the argies who walk around wearing blinders, never been outside a 30 miles radius.

By the way, traveling all over the world and taking my money anywhere in the world is part of the one of the greatness of the US.

Jackson
08-22-08, 20:41
"Can anyone imagine the liberation of Kuwait without the participation of USA?"

Did anybody give a shit about the liberation of Kuwait?I did.

Thanks,

Jackson

Argento
08-25-08, 10:57
The past few weeks have been a real showcase for the members of this forum unused to the thought processes of Argentinians. After general and specific derogatory statements made by board members, me included, 2 great champions of the Argentine way waved the flag. Never mind the status that the international community awards Argentinian business and government ethics, these 2 guys defended with rhetorical zeal, the greatness and high principles of Argentina and Argentinians. No surprise really. When reality and Argentinian perception of reality need to be compared, Argentinians without fail grasp the perception. The great example in the past few years has been the building of the paper mill in Uruguay. Argentinia was pissed that the mill was built there rather than in Argentina and set up a protest that ended in a case before the world court. The court found in favour of the Uruguay position but the decision was not unanimous. I think it was 15-1, the sole Argentine jurist finding in favour of Argentina. Funny that! Since then, Argentina has been as destructive as it can be by restricting access to Uruguay, a bit like a spoiled child denied its way really. And to what end? And generally supported by the public at large who seem to think, along with with their politicians, that they have a pre-emptive right to determine the internal decisions of Uruguay, a position specifically rejected by the World Court. Has Argentine backed off and recognised that their position had no standing in international law? Not likely! They have appealed the decision (verdict still to come) and continued with intimidating their midget neighbor with as much grief as they can without declaring all-out economic war. Rather like Andres and co. No matter what this forum's members experiences are, no matter how truthfully they are recounted, the problems we recount are because we are stupid, have principles that are out-dated and that the Argentinians are the cleverest people in the world. As the saying goes when I was a boy, 'If you are so smart, how come you are not rich'?

Argento

Dickhead
08-25-08, 15:46
Here's a typical Argie attitude for you. A friend of mine was down here and I hooked him up with an Argie chica. He recorded some music for her. When she went to load more music, she accidentally erased it all.

So when he came back, he recorded 12 DVDs worth of music for her, over 10,000 songs. He gave me the disks to give to her. But, she doesn't have a DVD. So I told her I would burn them onto CDs or memory sticks or something for her. But I can't do that until my housemate gets back since I don't have a DVD burner.

Now she's convinced that I am trying to cheat her or make a profit off this somehow, plus she wants "to be the first one to listen to them." I'm not even going to be listening to them while I am ripping them. My idea is to put it all on an external hard drive so she can at least see what she wants or doesn't want, but now I think I'll just give her the disks and tell her to shove them up her ass.

Because the country is so fundamentally and pervasively corrupt, she just can't grasp the idea that I would help her out with this even though I am not fucking her any more. She is just convinced I am trying to get over on her somehow, because that's how life works here. This mental state exists even though she knows I have plenty of music and and plenty of money.

Fernando22
08-25-08, 16:29
I agree on part what you say about corruption in Argentina.

But my impression is that argies really don't give a fuck what people in a forum of gatos like this can say about it. Some of them even sound to me like they were mocking you. You all take too serious the matter.

The same is about who pay more or pay less about the chicks.

I am living in Argentina for more than a year now and I get acquainted argies pay less for chicks. You don't want to see it, you want to go on believing american people are the champions of the world, O. K. Go on believing. WTF?

I'm form Netherlands and I know that argies chicken prefer argies or western european people even they get less money. You don't want to believe this? O. K. WTF?

I like Argentina and argentine people, allthough corruption exists. But I have been in other countries of Latin American and it is worse. Much worse in Colombia or Ecuador. And they are not as friendly as argentine people are and they not have the women are here.

Schmoj
08-25-08, 17:49
But my impression is that argies really don't give a fuck what people in a forum of gatos like this can say about it. Some of them even sound to me like they were mocking you. You all take too serious the matter.

The same is about who pay more or pay less about the chicks.There is a local forum where these exact issues are discussed. Not much irrelevant rambling about politics, cocksuckers, etc over there, though.


I am living in Argentina for more than a year now and I get acquainted argies pay less for chicks. You don't want to see it, you want to go on believing american people are the champions of the world, O. K. Go on believing. WTF?You'll get no argument from me about that. One of the reasons I don't live there anymore.


I'm form Netherlands and I know that argies chicken prefer argies or western european people even they get less money. You don't want to believe this? O. K. WTF?What you are saying doesn't make much sense to me, especially for working girls.

The things they would be attracted to about a Western European would be pretty much the same for North Americans - money, treated with more respect, etc.


I like Argentina and argentine people, allthough corruption exists. But I have been in other countries of Latin American and it is worse. Much worse in Colombia or Ecuador. And they are not as friendly as argentine people are and they not have the women are here.Are you doing anything related to money here, or are you studying / travelling? If it is the latter, you have no idea how corrupt it can be.

Fernando22
08-25-08, 18:49
Are you doing anything related to money here, or are you studying / travelling? If it is the latter, you have no idea how corrupt it can be.True I am doing minor related things involving money here, only renting a small apt. In San Telmo. But my father's girlfriend has a big charge in the Police Dept. And true there must be all kind of things there.

But again, WTF?

The day I don't like Argentina anymore I will go to another place. So what is I don't undestand about many here. Unless you are a lot of old guys who can hardly move, and sometimes you look like it, why don't you go to another place you like more?

I have been in Barranquilla (Colombia) and you almost can't walk on the streets there. Once I saw a guy shoot down in front my eyes. And then the guy climb up a motorcycle wich was waiting there with another guy and get out before a lot of eyes. Nobody cares. So here is not so bad.

I like Argentine people because they are intelligent and one can see this in the kind of answers they have given you: only two of them put you all in a blaze. Particullary Andres. I like that guy.

Skifozo
08-25-08, 21:34
Taked to an Argie chica on the weekend who says she charges Argys Double just to get rid of them. She wonders why none of them can afford a good haircut, but then again some Argys won't want to believe that either. WTF?

Horatius
08-30-08, 19:43
True problem here. More like a way of living. From up the political elite to the lowest levels.

El Queso
08-31-08, 20:45
Just an illustration of how Argentinos think of other people in general.

I am trying to find a house to live in here in Argentina. Should be a pretty simple thing to do. Of course, as those who are foreigners and don't own property know (well, even if you're an Argentino and don't own property, or know someone who owns property and is willing to back you) it can be very difficult to find property of any sort.

I looked at a place that was just off the Panamericana after the Tigre turnoff. It was not in a country, but the add for the house looked like it could be in a nice neighborhood. I was actually on the way to Pilar to look at some houses in countries, but this was on my way, so I figured I'd have a look.

The neighborhood wasn't all that great. It actually had a nice park on the way to the house I was looking at, but that was about all it had going for it. It was near an idustrial park, and houses were small, many crumbling, chain link fences mixed with walls, etc.

The house itself was not bad from the outside. We went in and one of the first things the owner told us was "this house is my world. When I cross the threshold, the outside world ceases to exist. I don't know any of my neighbors, and I don't want to. I leave only when I have to, for work or to pick up something I need, but I never say hi to anyone."

Well, ok, even for here that can be a bit extreme I think. As well, I actually know some people in the States who are like that. It's just that her statement really struck me as a bit odd, saying this to someone she'd only just met and was considering renting her house, and I thought I'd share it.

So I won't go into details about the house. By the time we had looked around a bit, I wasn't really considering renting it, but I wanted to find out some information about how an owner, not going through a real estate agent, would think about the leasing of her house.

Her plan was to rent her house out and go rent an apartment for her and her daughter in the city so she could be closer to work.

I asked her if she was looking for a guarantee. She said yes. I said, well, as you could probably tell from my accent, I'm a foreigner and I don't own property; I don't have a guarantee. She said, well, I really need a guarantee. So I ask her if I could put a substantial portion of the money up front in place of a guarantee and start paying the rent immediately, stopping when I'd paid the amount of the lease including my down payment. I was thinking of somewhere between six months and a year.

She though about it then said the only thing she would accept was all of the 24 months of the lease up front. After all, she said (and this is the crux of how she is thinking) "in this country people hurt and take advantage of each other all the time. I have to make sure you don't hurt me. What would happen if you stopped paying me? How would I pay the rent on my apartment in the city?"

Now, I don't blame her, understand. I know why she has that attitude - just look at the corruption and lack of protection against the very thing that would make it easy for her to get me out of her house, for example, and get a paying customer in there.

I met a financier from N. America the other night, and he was telling me that he is going back in a month or so. He specializes in hi-salaried people, helping them to make investments and grow their money. He said that he is leaving because there are so few people here that could trust a bank or anyone else with their money to begin with - and he is providing investment outside of the country, not based on Argentine economics.

But someone in this thread asked why so much of us foreigners were here if things like this drove us nuts?

Well, for the moment, it is still a place for foreign visitors to come and get pretty pussy at a reasonable price. That's an easy thing for the visitors. There are even some longer-term residents who also stay here for that reason, and tolerate the idiocies that they find here because of that.

There are those like me who can take advantage of the still relatively cheap technical labor resources and the fact that, at least here in Capital Federal, the training is fairly good, and although it can be hit or miss, the infrastructure can be good as well. Of course as I write this, my internet connection, which is supposed to be "3 megas" from FiberTel (I think if they actually have any fiber within kilometers of me it must be plant fiber, or maybe spider silk from cobwebs) and from which I am lucky to get 300 kbs on a good day, is really sucking and I'm actually getting about 100 kbs from right now, so one never knows.

So to answer that question of why - because there are still things to be had here in Argentina, but the Argentinos don't seem to realize that they are pricing themselves out of even that game with the inflation that is making it more and more difficult to enjoy things here.

It would be different if things were getting more expensive because the country as a whole were moving upward, services were increasing, corruption lessening, idiotically unfair labor laws and general practices being rolled back. There would be less feelings of exasperation from those who have seen things done better because we would be able to actually enjoy life instead of spending a lot of it trying to find ways to make life better here.

The fact is, most of us here have a love-hate relationship because we do see the Argentinos individually as nice people and people who we would often like to call friends, it's the overall effect that brings us down.

Jes1959
08-31-08, 21:27
Thank you for sharing your information.


Well, for the moment, it is still a place for foreign visitors to come and get pretty pussy at a reasonable price. That's an easy thing for the visitors. There are even some longer-term residents who also stay here for that reason, and tolerate the idiocies that they find here because of that.Jes

Schmoj
08-31-08, 22:13
The fact is, most of us here have a love-hate relationship because we do see the Argentinos individually as nice people and people who we would often like to call friends, it's the overall effect that brings us down.Amen brother!

Tatshea Travel
03-14-09, 18:03
Here's a typical Argie attitude for you. A friend of mine was down here and I hooked him up with an Argie chica. He recorded some music for her. When she went to load more music, she accidentally erased it all.

So when he came back, he recorded 12 DVDs worth of music for her, over 10,000 songs. He gave me the disks to give to her. But, she doesn't have a DVD. So I told her I would burn them onto CDs or memory sticks or something for her. But I can't do that until my housemate gets back since I don't have a DVD burner.

Now she's convinced that I am trying to cheat her or make a profit off this somehow, plus she wants "to be the first one to listen to them." I'm not even going to be listening to them while I am ripping them. My idea is to put it all on an external hard drive so she can at least see what she wants or doesn't want, but now I think I'll just give her the disks and tell her to shove them up her ass.

Because the country is so fundamentally and pervasively corrupt, she just can't grasp the idea that I would help her out with this even though I am not fucking her any more. She is just convinced I am trying to get over on her somehow, because that's how life works here. This mental state exists even though she knows I have plenty of music and and plenty of money.More than an economic problem or a political problem I'm persuaded high nosed argies have a problem in their heads.