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View Full Version : Demise of the Euro?



Stan Da Man
09-27-11, 19:05
Much can be written about how Europe got in this mess. But, the more interesting issue, in my opinion, is how Europe gets out of this mess. So, the purpose of this thread would be to discuss these issues, if anyone's interested.

As an initial matter, any policy prescriptions for what to do probably depend on one's view of what happens to Greece and, possibly, the other profligate spenders and slow growers in the EU. But, let's just take Greece. For my money (I've been short the Euro for some time) a default by Greece is inevitable. The only reason it hasn't occurred already is because the EU hasn't figured out any way to deal with the situation other than shoveling more cash at Greece to keep it from defaulting in the short term. That will come to an end after this second tranche, which may or may not happen, next month. But, regardless, Germany will never approve more aid after that, and the second tranche won't prevent the inevitable default. Austerity measures are politically impossible in Greece. Greece can't grow it's way out of this mess. Indeed, it's contracting. Greece can't inflate its way out of this mess. That leaves only one option: Default. It will happen. The only question is when.

So, if that is accepted as a given, the next question is: What are the consequences? Absent immediate action, the consequences are huge. For starters, the three largest French banks will immediately become insolvent, and they will cause ricocheting insolvencies throughout the EU and spread to the US. This is, in part, due to the phony stress tests the EU has been administering. Sovreign debt, such as that of Greece, is valued at 100 cents on the Euro no matter how impaired the market says the debt is. A default would render that debt worthless, and would erode these banks' capital bases, rendering them nearly insolvent in an instant. There have been proposals to allow creditors to take a 50 percent to 70 percent impairment on this debt, or to "voluntarily" lengthen the payment terms of Greek bonds. But, the ECB will have none of that. It has declared that even such supposedly voluntarily measures would be deemed a default, thereby eviscerating these banks' capital base.

There have been many clever solutions proposed. But, there's only one proposal that has any serious chance, in my opinion. A Euro TARP needs to be set up. TARP, as originally conceived by Bush and Paulson, was a bad idea. It would have allowed the government to purchase "toxic assets" from banks and would have done little to help anything. But, it was revised by Paulson in October of 2008 and made much simpler. Rather than purchasing bad assets, they instead just decided to inject capital into the banks. Since banks use leverage to increase the effect of their capital, there was about a 10-1 benefit achieved under this approach. It insulated the banks from the effects of the bad loans on their books, and it allowed them to eventually raise more capital as their stock prices rose such that they could pay back this initial round of TARP funds injections.

When Geithner came into office, this already had been accomplished. He messed up much of the work that already had been done by going back to the initial toxic asset purchase model, but the early efforts under TARP undoubtedly were successful. The government caused the mess by effectively mandating lax lending standards in the secondary market, but at least they helped fix the mess.

This is what Europe must now do. Their problems stem from the same core as the problems in the US. Bad government policies have caused this mess. Now they've got to help fix this. Essentially, they've got to recapitalize their banks before Greece fails, and then let Greece fail.

The problems is, how do they get there? The ECB wants no part of it. Stark resigned last month over bond purchases. No one knows how Draghi feels about these things. Italy was trolling in China for some money, with no luck. Paribas has been hitting up Arab investors for more capital, with no luck. US money markets are starting to refuse to lend to French banks, and Germany won't be far off, which has forced the Fed to step in. There are strong arguments that the EFSF can't legally participate in recapitalization. It's probably only got 300 billion or so Euros left, anyway, with another 100 billion earmarked for Greece in a month or so. If officials seek authority for EFSF participation, or the creation of some separate vehicle, there are serious questions whether Merkel will survive. Regardless, such a special purpose vehicle likely would require consent from all 17 EU countries. Failing ECB participation, that would appear to be the only way. Yet, it's doubtful there's sufficient time for that approval, and it may not be forthcoming anyway. Perhaps the IMF and other nations will find a way to intervene, but until then it will be pretty rocky.

The markets were up today, apparently on news that Greece likely will receive more funds, so it won't default in the near term. That's like cheering because the condemned man has been allotted more rope before the hanging. So, Greece won't default this year. There is some value in that, because it would give the other 16 EU countries time to get their act together. But, Greece will Default. When it does, the remaining questions are whether other countries like Spain and Italy also will need bailing out, and whether Europe can shore up its banks before a catastrophe happens.

As I mentioned, I'm short the Euro until I see that they can get a Euro TARP passed. Anyone else have any thoughts on solutions to this mess?

Yujin
09-30-11, 01:36
Although it's on The Colbert Report, I think Chrystia Freeland gave a pretty good explanation as to what needs to be done to save the Euro, I. E, Germany will have to bailout Greece, Portugal, Spain, Ireland, etc. To keep them from defaulting and to keep the Euro from becoming Monopoly play money. I don't think the German people are going to be too happy about them undertaking most of the financial burden of a bailout. Merkel will probably be ousted from office, but she did what she had to do.

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/397647/september-21-2011/solutions-to-america-s-financial-worries---chrystia-freeland

El Perro
09-30-11, 10:20
Seems eventually they'll arrange and "orderly" default for Greece, but only after they stuff the big banks in Germany and France with enough cash to see them through. They're just kicking the can down the road now while whistling through the graveyard.

Personally, I'd like to see the whole thing come undone, watch the Euro took a huge beating, and have the Schengen visa arrangement obliterated. It would be cheaper to live in, or visit Europe, and like the old days, you could renew your tourist visa by sliding over to another country for a day or two. Too much to ask for, but that's on my wish list.

Wild Walleye
09-30-11, 11:34
Seems eventually they'll arrange and "orderly" default for Greece, but only after they stuff the big banks in Germany and France with enough cash to see them through. They're just kicking the can down the road now while whistling through the graveyard.

Personally, I'd like to see the whole thing come undone, watch the Euro took a huge beating, and have the Schengen visa arrangement obliterated. It would be cheaper to live in, or visit Europe, and like the old days, you could renew your tourist visa by sliding over to another country for a day or two. Too much to ask for, but that's on my wish list.Agreed. I miss the days of the cheap Lira and living large in Italy. I've been anti-Euro since before it was enacted, based solely upon my nationalistic tendencies. How can a democratically-elected government, constitutionally bound to protect its citizens abdicate its sovereignty by putting foreigners in charge of its currency and central banking? While it is attractive for weak currencies like Greece to sponge off the strong like Germany, when the going is good, it is bad for the strong countries and when the going gets bad, it is even worse for the strong countries and catastrophic for the weak (except that it probably forces the central banking hand to bail it out, more so than if it was sovereign). As I have stated before, as this crisis came upon Greece (due to unsustainable socialist policies, for the most part) it (Greece) lacked many of the fundamental economic tools, available to independent countries with their own currencies and central banking systems. I have also been consistent in saying that the best way out for the Euro-zone is to cut its losses with Greece and cast them off. This will prove to the Euro-zone countries and the world that the Euro is a tool for political expedience and lacking in anything that looks like "nationalistic backbone" to support its members. Ergo, casting Greece aside is the beginning of the end for the Euro. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

El Perro
10-04-11, 11:00
I'm betting the big players in Europe are just about ready to give up the ghost. What with Greece acknowledging that they aren't going to be able to meet the expectations of the "Troika" the shit could be hitting the fan pretty soon. I would be shocked if the background machine isn't working overtime now to arrange the orderly default.

Donkey Punch
11-26-11, 05:27
I'm betting the big players in Europe are just about ready to give up the ghost. What with Greece acknowledging that they aren't going to be able to meet the expectations of the "Troika" the shit could be hitting the fan pretty soon. I would be shocked if the background machine isn't working overtime now to arrange the orderly default.Orderly default a la Argentina? Bond yields for the PIIGS are already high and that contagion is even affecting Germany. I don't know how the European leaders are going to be able to extricate themselves out of this conundrum.

Stan Da Man
11-28-11, 22:11
Orderly default a la Argentina? Bond yields for the PIIGS are already high and that contagion is even affecting Germany. I don't know how the European leaders are going to be able to extricate themselves out of this conundrum.As they say in Argentina, Que quilombo!

This has gone quicker than even I thought. But, now there's a new player on board: The IMF. Rumors abound that the IMF will try to sell Italy on a $800 billion bailout plan.

So, we see markets jump today in response to this prospect, and in response to the proposal from Germany and France for harsher austerity plans and more centralized accountability. Both developments came today. How long will this euphoria last? Remember three weeks ago when all the Euro leaders emerged from a summit with their last grand plan? They were going to force banks to take a 50% haircut, require them to increase their capital ratios by mid next year, and raise money from god knows who to provide "leverage" to their EFSF. How long did the euphoria of that last? About 3 days. Then, all hell started breaking loose again.

By Friday, if not sooner, the market will be looking askance at this latest set of proposals. Then, we'll have a volatile week until December 9, when all the Euro leaders again get together to see if they can find anyone with a brain cell to get them out of this mess. It should be interesting. I'm still short the Euro.

El Perro
11-29-11, 09:40
I still think Merkel is just kicking the can down the road while saying all the politically correct things about supporting the euro and the EU. Behind the scenes they're trying to shore up the banks for the inevitable financial armageddon, contemplating going it alone, or an "inner circle" arrangement with France and / or a few other countries. It's a tsunami of debt and eventually the big dogs are going to head to higher ground.

It ain't the end of the world. They all survived Lehman and they'll "survive" this as well. Hey, it's only money.

El Perro
05-16-12, 20:25
The shit about to hit the fan now. A run on the banks will take it over the edge regardless of what the pols do.