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I was talking to a friend of "ours" the other night and we were wondering if there was another example of a country that literally dropped from first world status to third world satus?
Rags to riches is eazy; but it seems that Argentina went from riches to rags!
From becoming one of the world's richest nations in about 100 years to being what it is today about 100 years later!
Can you think of another example?
TL.
P. S - Of course I will get back to talking about Chicas as soon as possible!
[QUOTE=TejanoLibre]Can you think of another example?[/quote]Well, not 1st world to 3rd world, but as for going to maybe #1 in the world to barely second tier on it's own continent, in about 100 years: Argentina's mother country: Spain, from the 16th century, to the 17th and beyond, after the sinking of the Armada, the squandering of the gold reserves, etc.
If you want to go back a few thousand years, and give things a few more centuries or millennia to deteriorate, didn't Egypt and Greece rule the world at one time? And the Caliphate in the Middle East? Find me a 1st world country there, now.
I'm hoping the USA isn't next on this list, but the headlines get harder and harder to read every day, don't they.
[QUOTE=Big Travel Guy][QUOTE=TejanoLibre]Can you think of another example?[/quote]Well, not 1st world to 3rd world, but as for going to maybe #1 in the world to barely second tier on it's own continent, in about 100 years: Argentina's mother country: Spain, from the 16th century, to the 17th and beyond, after the sinking of the Armada, the squandering of the gold reserves, etc.
If you want to go back a few thousand years, and give things a few more centuries or millennia to deteriorate, didn't Egypt and Greece rule the world at one time? And the Caliphate in the Middle East? Find me a 1st world country there, now.
I'm hoping the USA isn't next on this list, but the headlines get harder and harder to read every day, don't they.[/QUOTE]I could think about several examples but none in a 100 year period. I think about the chinese who were the ruling power in the world back in the 1400's to becoming colonized by european powers in th XIX century, suffering the opium wars with GB, the boxers rebellion, warlords in the early XX century and suffering the rape of Nankin in 1937 and of course the japanese invasion until 1945. Their rebound in such short time is amazing.
Another country passing from riches to rags was the Ottoman Empire, one of the most powerful empires in the Rennaisance, which twice almost conquered Vienna, mastered the Mediterranean Sea in the XVI Century and was incredibly rich to it's defeat in WWI.
Could we think of Iran in the XX Century? Think about the Sha's and how Iran looked like a promising land in 1975 before the revolution of the Ayatollah, compared to today being ruled by greedy Mullahs.
It's sad to say it because it is my country but México is suffering the same fate as Argentina, 30 years ago, without being a super power, we had a big middle class and economic growth, tons of oil, right now. Hell, you know!
[QUOTE=TejanoLibre]Can you think of another example?[/QUOTE]How about Russia? They were one of the leading powers of the 19th and early 20th century. Then, they had the Bolshevik Revolution. While they maintained their "superpower' status during this time, the standard of living for the Russian people clearly suffered the same fate as the Argentine people now -- slow but persistent decline due to bad politics and corrupt rulers. They finally got to the point where they could no longer compete in the arms race, and the whole thing collapsed.
Now, the Soviet Union is no more (at least as a formal regime rather than a sphere of influence) and Russia is back. So, Russia has done a return trip. But, up until 1987 or so, Russia clearly had gone from first world to third world, at least if the measure is standard of living. They're on their way back now -- though still saddled with corrupt politicians -- but I think the country is another example of riches to rags comparable to today's Argentina.
[QUOTE=Big Travel Guy]Well, not 1st world to 3rd world, but as for going to maybe #1 in the world to barely second tier on it's own continent, in about 100 years: Argentina's mother country: Spain, from the 16th century, to the 17th and beyond, after the sinking of the Armada, the squandering of the gold reserves, etc.
If you want to go back a few thousand years, and give things a few more centuries or millennia to deteriorate, didn't Egypt and Greece rule the world at one time? And the Caliphate in the Middle East? Find me a 1st world country there, now.
I'm hoping the USA isn't next on this list, but the headlines get harder and harder to read every day, don't they.[/QUOTE][QUOTE=Big Travel Guy]
And the Caliphate in the Middle East? Find me a 1st world country there, now.[/QUOTE]Easy, I believe that would be Israel. Thankfully, I've never been there and have no intentions of finding out for myself.
Recall the teleology: 1st world=the developed democratic countries, 2nd world=the developed communist countries, 3rd world=all the rest.
Mis dos centavos,
Jazz /
[QUOTE=Jazzplayer]Easy, I believe that would be Israel. Thankfully, I've never been there and have no intentions of finding out for myself.[/QUOTE]You've never been there. I am sure that their populace is happy to hear that you have no interest in ever going there. FYI, Israel hasn't been in existence for 100 years.
[quote=]Recall the teleology: 1st world=the developed democratic countries, 2nd world=the developed communist countries, 3rd world=all the rest. [/QUOTE]I would say 3rd includes all of the failed 2s, as well. BTW, Israel is both developed and democratic, and a nuclear power too.
While I am not Jewish, I am a son of David.
Lebanon,
A resort like country to a pile of rubble in a few years.
Fellows, I do not know what is the point of this thread, but no argies enter this forum any more.
I do not know if even expats enter here any more.
And with that you have missed am essential source of information about girls and privados. And night clubs.
If you have been more smart you would have proceed like the italian forum or like the french forum or like the german forum, try to mix with the local people here and get belangrijk information.
But instead you isolated yourselves, and save one or two posts a day no one real valuable information about mongering in Buenos Aires is posted in this forum.
You been so wrong in so many appreciations about politics and economy and argentine and worldwide living that no one expect any true appreciation about what is happening here or in the united states any more. I read astonishing informations here like HIV is harmless, global warning a fraud, Obamas health reform unnecesarie and other idiotic things even argies fall down with laughter werever I comment what I have read here.
You are only a sad and conservatives bunch of mongers who came to this beautiful country only to do what it is not allowed for you to do in your "wonderful" and "free" country, that is, to fuck pretty girls at a very low cost. You waste your dollars in Madaho's and Hippo and don't know a shit where the real hot and inexpensive places are.
All local forums are filled with information about these, but you ignore them because you are so proud and arrogant but so stupid that very few of you can read spanish.
You live isolated in this country like a bunch of old faggots in a bus tour through the 3er World.
But in spite of that you pretend to know the place, to dissect its politic its history and its economy like you were living here fifty years, travelled all the country, mixed with all social strata.
Come on, your are ridiculous.
Keep on mongering and wasting your dollars like the sad people you are, and do not try to talk about what you do not know.
I am a dutchman, and very proud of being so.
Not by chance american people is considered the scourge of humanity by three cuarters of the world nowadays.
Great post. I especially like the faggots on the bus comment. I've never seen so many gossiping, cheap old queens.
[QUOTE=Fernando22]Fellows, I do not know what is the point of this thread, but no argies enter this forum any more.
I do not know if even expats enter here any more.
And with that you have missed am essential source of information about girls and privados. And night clubs.
If you have been more smart you would have proceed like the italian forum or like the french forum or like the german forum, try to mix with the local people here and get belangrijk information.
But instead you isolated yourselves, and save one or two posts a day no one real valuable information about mongering in Buenos Aires is posted in this forum.
You been so wrong in so many appreciations about politics and economy and argentine and worldwide living that no one expect any true appreciation about what is happening here or in the united states any more. I read astonishing informations here like HIV is harmless, global warning a fraud, Obamas health reform unnecesarie and other idiotic things even argies fall down with laughter werever I comment what I have read here.
You are only a sad and conservatives bunch of mongers who came to this beautiful country only to do what it is not allowed for you to do in your "wonderful" and "free" country, that is, to fuck pretty girls at a very low cost. You waste your dollars in Madaho's and Hippo and don't know a shit where the real hot and inexpensive places are.
All local forums are filled with information about these, but you ignore them because you are so proud and arrogant but so stupid that very few of you can read spanish.
You live isolated in this country like a bunch of old faggots in a bus tour through the 3er World.
But in spite of that you pretend to know the place, to dissect its politic its history and its economy like you were living here fifty years, travelled all the country, mixed with all social strata.
Come on, your are ridiculous.
Keep on mongering and wasting your dollars like the sad people you are, and do not try to talk about what you do not know.
I am a dutchman, and very proud of being so.
Not by chance american people is considered the scourge of humanity by three cuarters of the world nowadays.[/QUOTE]
I can appreciate the spirit of this post but find it interesting how people can't help practice what they preach. Fernando22, how is it you and your "Argies" think you understand what the US needs from a healthcare perspective? Your whole post implies that without submersing ourselves into the "Argie" country we can not truly appreciate their perspective! A valid point. But, then you turn around and preach to US citizens that some of our opinons on US healthcare are ridiculous. How can you even pretend to have the knowledge to understand the US healthcare system? I was in the Insurance business in the US for many years and still don't understand the intricacies of how it works enough to propose an acceptable model to fix it. Most of the debate is not about whether we need to improve our healthcare system but HOW to improve our healthcare system. A healthy debate if you ask me. The healthcare system is almost 20% of the US GDP. This is not something I want to see "corrected" in a half assed manner in order to garner political points with an electorate. Would the Argies accept some sort of drastic change to their agricultural and meat producing market place that would jeapordize their economy and many livelihoods? Doubtful. Your point is well taken, isolationists rarely have the best perspective on what is truly going on around them. Ironicly, that also means the "Argies" are really in no position to appreciate the complexities of changing healthcare policies within the US.
As for HIV and Global Warming. Why do you think I don't wear a rubber. It's too damn hot in here;-) (That's a joke, I take both of these things very seriously)
Sysco.
PS - Not bad for a 3rd post huh!
[QUOTE=Fernando22]Fellows, I do not know what is the point of this thread, but no argies enter this forum any more.
I do not know if even expats enter here any more.
And with that you have missed am essential source of information about girls and privados. And night clubs.
If you have been more smart you would have proceed like the italian forum or like the french forum or like the german forum, try to mix with the local people here and get belangrijk information.
But instead you isolated yourselves, and save one or two posts a day no one real valuable information about mongering in Buenos Aires is posted in this forum.
You been so wrong in so many appreciations about politics and economy and argentine and worldwide living that no one expect any true appreciation about what is happening here or in the united states any more. I read astonishing informations here like HIV is harmless, global warning a fraud, Obamas health reform unnecesarie and other idiotic things even argies fall down with laughter werever I comment what I have read here.
You are only a sad and conservatives bunch of mongers who came to this beautiful country only to do what it is not allowed for you to do in your "wonderful" and "free" country, that is, to fuck pretty girls at a very low cost. You waste your dollars in Madaho's and Hippo and don't know a shit where the real hot and inexpensive places are.
All local forums are filled with information about these, but you ignore them because you are so proud and arrogant but so stupid that very few of you can read spanish.
You live isolated in this country like a bunch of old faggots in a bus tour through the 3er World.
But in spite of that you pretend to know the place, to dissect its politic its history and its economy like you were living here fifty years, travelled all the country, mixed with all social strata.
Come on, your are ridiculous.
Keep on mongering and wasting your dollars like the sad people you are, and do not try to talk about what you do not know.
I am a dutchman, and very proud of being so.
Not by chance american people is considered the scourge of humanity by three cuarters of the world nowadays.[/QUOTE]
At least the people that make these useless threads actually have been or are in Argentina, have experienced some of what it has to offer, and I would doubt that anybody like Fernando can make any comments on the US or any other place in NA on the basis of anything EXCEPT what they hear or see in the news. From what I have experienced in Argentina over the last 3 years I think there could be quite a bit "lost in translation". Every day I am in Argentina I am convinced that there is more than the language that I cannot make sense of and fully explains the riches to rags transformation of Argentina in pretty much record historical time.
I am currently in Corrientes and there is a prime example here (some of us actually do travel around the rest of the country) There is some argentine olympic athlete of some note who I have never heard of before and to honor him the Government of Argentina has set up about a 100' ski jump on the main river walk. This set up is from Spain and it is costing 2 million p / day. In typical Argentine fashion it has taken 2wks to set up, it is quite a bit warmer here than BA so you can imagine the amount of ice required (they probably are importing this from Spain as well - you can draw many obvious conclusions as to what kind of corruption was involved in setting up this contract) I still have not seen anything happen on this jump. This is about as stupid as organizing a outdoor beach party with real palm trees in Canada in the middle of winter to celebrate one of the country's only olympic medals in trampolining and last time I checked the goverment there is not doing that.
The only reason I am even on the computer right now, wasting part of a beautiful day, putting this note up is that I am waiting for Argentine fishing partner to get his ass over here as he is 3hrs late and we literally reconfirmed the time of the trip not even 8hrs ago in the bar where we entertained ourselves last night. Toymann has coined the perfect phrase for Argentina as "why do today what you can put off until tomorrow" and this has many applications to all parts of Argentine society. I still love parts of what Argentina has to offer, but the hypocrisy of an Argentine person making derogatory comments about what is wrong in the US or at least 80% of other countries in the world is staggering.
[QUOTE=Fernando22]Not by chance american people is considered the scourge of humanity by three cuarters of the world nowadays.[/QUOTE][blue]Guys,
Why do you even bother to respond to idiots like this?
Anyway, unlike my competitor's forum, I don't permit people to use my forum to openly bash my country, so I will be deleting Fernando22's Eurotrash comments within 24 hours, and I'm only waiting that long out of respect for the guys who did respond to this moron.
In the mean time, please refrain from responding to his drivel.
Thanks,
Jackson
==================================================
For the record, I am [u]NOT[/u] a Republican, and I am [u]NOT[/u] a conservative.
- I am [u]against[/u] the death penalty.
- I am [u]against[/u] [u]any[/u] government support of religious organizations.
- I am [u]for[/u] the legalization of recreational drugs.
- I am [u]for[/u] the legalization of commercial sex.
- I am [u]for[/u] a woman's right to choose.
- I am [u]for[/u] comprehensive sex education.
- I am [u]for[/u] a foreign guest worker program.
- I am [u]for[/u] a universal flat tax on [u]EVERYONE'S[/u] income.
- I am [u]for[/u] health [u]INSURANCE[/u] reform.
- I am [u]for[/u] health [u]JUSTICE[/u] reform.
I am a member of the Libertian Party, registered as an Independent.[/blue]
[QUOTE=Jackson][blue]Guys,
Why do you even bother to respond to idiots like this?
Anyway, unlike my competitor's forum, I don't permit people to use my forum to openly bash my country, so I will be deleting Fernando22's Eurotrash comments within 24 hours, and I'm only waiting that long out of respect for the guys who did respond to this moron.
In the mean time, please refrain from responding to his drivel.
Thanks,
Jackson[/blue][/QUOTE]Fair enough, but by the same token should you not also delete posts which bash Argentina. Argentina has many faults, but this forum is supposed to be about P4P and associated topics (apartments, food, fishing etc) and not about politics. I agree with Fernando on at least one thing, that allowing ill-informed Argie bashing posts probably does deter Argentinian contributors to this forum and thus deprives us of some useful local experiences and information about the P4p scene.
Lysander
[QUOTE=Fernando22]Fellows, I do not know what is the point of this thread, but no argies enter this forum any more.
I do not know if even expats enter here any more.
And with that you have missed am essential source of information about girls and privados. And night clubs.
If you have been more smart you would have proceed like the italian forum or like the french forum or like the german forum, try to mix with the local people here and get belangrijk information.
But instead you isolated yourselves, and save one or two posts a day no one real valuable information about mongering in Buenos Aires is posted in this forum.
You been so wrong in so many appreciations about politics and economy and argentine and worldwide living that no one expect any true appreciation about what is happening here or in the united states any more. I read astonishing informations here like HIV is harmless, global warning a fraud, Obamas health reform unnecesarie and other idiotic things even argies fall down with laughter werever I comment what I have read here.
(...)
All local forums are filled with information about these, but you ignore them because you are so proud and arrogant but so stupid that very few of you can read spanish.
You live isolated in this country like a bunch of old faggots in a bus tour through the 3er World.
But in spite of that you pretend to know the place, to dissect its politic its history and its economy like you were living here fifty years, travelled all the country, mixed with all social strata.[/QUOTE][QUOTE=Jackson][blue]Why do you even bother to respond to idiots like this?[/blue][/QUOTE]What's the idiot point here? I don't see it.
[QUOTE=Lysander]Fair enough, but by the same token should you not also delete posts which bash Argentina. Argentina has many faults, but this forum is supposed to be about P4P and associated topics (apartments, food, fishing etc) and not about politics. I agree with Fernando on at least one thing, that allowing ill-informed Argie bashing posts probably does deter Argentinian contributors to this forum and thus deprives us of some useful local experiences and information about the P4p scene.
Lysander[/QUOTE]Agree 100%.
If smartness is getting the best profit of environment and the place you're living, looks like some members of this forum are enclosed into a cellar in the Middle Ages. As Fernando pointed out, Rocky's or El Queso perspective towards SIDA or Global Warming, or El Alamo's approach to Unions correspond better to a Neanderthal environment than to a science and humanist society. I always thought some of you guys had been inmensely lucky to been born in a developped country, if not you probably be draggin a cart along the streets of a Third World city.
Contrary on what many of you may think, I had great respect for the United States. Some of the writers I admire most are americans, I like very much its cinema. I think it's a great country, with great ideals spoiled in the last times by an irrational desire for money. An ambition out of proportion that submerge a lot of good qualities they have.
This forum is not the better example of culture, I know.
But at least I hope may be a good source of information (if for once you cease to confront with the ones who give hosting to you, then, as Fernando and Lysander rightly point out, some Argentines may want to share some valuable datum with you), and also a source of free expresion like it was until now.
Don't spoil it banning a member just because he wrote something you don't like.
[QUOTE=Julio]Don't spoil it banning a member just because he wrote something you don't like.[/QUOTE]Julio,
1. Fernando22 in [u]NOT[/u] an Argentino, he's European.
2. Spoil what? According to Fernando22, [url=http://my.statcounter.com/project/standard/stats.php?project_id=1856129&guest=1]nobody[/url] "enters this forum" anymore anyway, including the 95 people that are signed on right now.
[quote=Julio]I always thought some of you guys had been inmensely lucky to been born in a developped country, if not you probably be draggin a cart along the streets of a Third World city.[/quote]3. But that's the great thing about America! The fact is that we've built a country wherein even the less productive of us can still achieve a good standard of living, as opposed to many other countries (like Argentina), where an appalling lack of opportunity results in a situation where very few of it's citizens can advance themselves economically. And they think we should follow their model?
Do you get this? Because many people don't, including every socialist I've ever met.
4. El Alamo is entirely accurate in his observations of the unions in Argentina, who are the country's biggest hindrance to growth with their mindset against allowing Argentina to develop a dynamic labor market to compete in the 21st century. The fact is that the unions have created an environment wherein a relatively small number of people have relatively good, well protected jobs at the expense of the majority who have no jobs. How very "European" of them.
Thanks,
Jackson