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[QUOTE=Lueck Hoff]With all due respect, my opinion was only a reaction to a former post from jackson.[/QUOTE]You are saying (in a thread named racism in Argentina) that if Obama wins the US elections then Europeans will change their minds about American citizens, and a long explanation about international diplomatics. So what have that to do with racism in Argentina? I don't see any connection.
The argentinians are like passive spectators. They think the government will and should fix all problems. They seem to forget that each and every one of them is part of the society. If the society is a mess, how is it possible to govern?
Whenever an accident occurs, they blame the government for lack of control.
It is always someone else's fault. The argentinian people is the cause of 99.9% of the problems they have.
Everytime, they dislike something the government does, they gather and make a mess, make noise, and they smash things up. Their worker unions are ridiculous, they are so uncivilized. Sometimes, I don't know if they are football hooligans or union members. When they strike, they don't only mess up for other people, but also for themselves. The ex-owners of Aerolineas, Marsans, surely commited many mistakes, but how can you run an airline when they strike ALL the time. Well, they couldn't, so Marsans left. The Argentinians deserve the mess that they are in.
The Argentinians lack integrity and pride, in order to do what it takes to make a better society. In my home country, no one would even think of bribeing a police officer, the police officers, wouldn't accept them either, not only because it is illegal, but also because they have integrity and pride.
[QUOTE=Geo Eye]argentine people ARE the most racist people I have ever met, even when their world was crumbling around them with the devaluation of their currency they still felt they were better than everyone else.
Hell, I have even seen the beggers on the street complaint when I give them just spare change.
It has always been like this and it will always be like this.
Must be the spaniard blood in them, which I consider the most arrogant and most inhumane, evil people in the history of mankind.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Geo Eye]Must be the spaniard blood in them, which I consider the most arrogant and most inhumane, evil people in the history of mankind.[/QUOTE]Yes, that is why Spanish history is so similar to Argentina's.
[QUOTE=Geo Eye]Must be the spaniard blood in them, which I consider the most arrogant and most inhumane, evil people in the history of mankind.[/QUOTE]Spaniard royalty is in fact, not Spaniard but original from france. And the history it's not about the people, history is about the royalty. I would also add that every country in the world has a dark history.
[QUOTE=Mike Cockburn]The argentinians are like passive spectators. They think the government will and should fix all problems.
Everytime, they dislike something the government does, they gather and make a mess, make noise, and they smash things up. [/QUOTE]Making noise and smashing things up doesn't sound to me like something a passive spectator does.
Well, they smash things up because nothing happens.
They put fire on the trains because they are arriving or departing late and are in bad condition. They don't seem to see that they shoot themselves in the foot. Repair costs drives money away from new investments.
Who would put a new costly train in a neighbourhood, were the old one was burn down by its own passengers. It is not a coincidence that the worst neighbourhoods have the worst trains.
What I mean is that they don't take responsability. The city is ful of litter, not because of the government aren't cleaning, but that the argentinians throw litter all over. The government is cleaning the streets, but the argentians are "faster" in making it dirty.
They are spectators in the sense that they think the government should solve everything, but it can't.
[QUOTE=Aqualung]Making noise and smashing things up doesn't sound to me like something a passive spectator does.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Mike Cockburn]They are spectators in the sense that they think the government should solve everything, but it can't.[/QUOTE]Government should enforce respect, it's a lack of respect littering and throwing stuff in the streets and making your dog to shit in the middle of the street. Government doesn't care, they are making money and living in a clean envirnonment only inside doors.
However, it takes a lot of time to understand, but there is a reason: collective efforts does not works because of the 'garantism'. Means there is no punishment. Argentine culture is based in individualism more than collective efforts to maintain a common thing. For example: In one of the buildings where I have 3 apts I have proposed to get a faster connection and share the hi-speed internet with a powerful router and every neighbor would save money. In fact, all of them are currently paying for high speed internet and all but one use wireless routers, all routers password protected. In summer time, mosquito repelents are by everywhere and I remember one or two summers ago, there was no supply due a bigger mosquito invasion, gov. Does not fumigates.
Macri [url]http://www.barts.com.ar/barts/articles/articles_detail.php?recordID=new_major[/url] was elected since many beleived, he would remove the trash digglers from the streets, to "clean-up" the city but he didn't, seems the administration is only focused into recovering their investment.
Garantism has also to do with the fear people fear about military intervention and heavy police enforcement. That would make the city look cleanner, but at the same time, it would remove the spirit of freedom you can feel in every corner of BA with the exception of Puerto Madero.
Incredibly, levels of violence (good neighborhoods) are not comparable with other big cities in the world. It's true many would like to see cleanner streets, but many others consider more important that freedom spirit that makes Buenos Aires City unique.
The Argentine "racism" it's consequently a different racism that you can see in other countries, as there are equal oportunities for anyone. The origin for this variation of "racism" (In Argentina, that you wrongly call racism is about some individuals who feel themselves separated from the rest of the society, but it's not a drilled generalized idea from bigger organizations encouraging to punish the 'inferior races') it's about individuals who either feel themselves superiors or fear of a group of people from a different origin. This variation of racism may be related to the "garantism" the government and the whole population is fairly proud about.
[QUOTE=Geo Eye]I guess when I say "inhumane people", I think of how the Cortes and De Soto.[/QUOTE]Inhumane people sounds like a contradiction, inhumane humans.
I respect your point of view but I would say that Hernan Cortes was very human, a human motherfucker as many others in history. But a human after all.
Mongers,
You can sum up the attitudes and behavior of Argentines like this; they want and demand all sorts of rights, but they do not want the responsibility that comes along with those rights.
Suerte,
Rock Harders
MCSE.
Garantism. One learns a new word every day.
You mean that the government acts for a greater (common) good?
In other countries there is no need for heavy controls, to get the citizens to behave well, because it is in the culture.
Long ago, even before my time, in my own homecountry, there was much more control, and the people behaved well out of fear, but then the control was removed, nevertheless the people didn't return to their old bad habits.
Rather, it is "self" control. If you throw litter in my homecountry, someone (ordinary person) might make you pick it up, even by force.
The collective efforts in Argentina are in strong decline.
My impression is that people don't care about those outside their own neighbourhood. A person from barrio norte, has nothing in common with a person in a really poor area. In a figurative sense, they don't speak the same language. Who want's to be around sick and dirty people?
I myself feel a bit uneasy around the worst cases. I care for my health.
It is a shame, that it has gone too far.
The society has "abandonded" this people.
The question is why?
Even if a country is short on cash, the basic needs must be fulfilled first.
[QUOTE=Rock Harders]Mongers,
You can sum up the attitudes and behavior of Argentines like this; they want and demand all sorts of rights, but they do not want the responsibility that comes along with those rights.
Suerte,
Rock Harders[/QUOTE]This is true, Mr. Harders and it is one of the many things wrong with Argentines.
I think their biggest problem is they are so closed-minded, they cannot think outside the box. It is like they walk around with blinder on, not aware of the outside world.
[QUOTE=Geo Eye]This is true, Mr. Harders and it is one of the many things wrong with argentines.
I think their biggest problem is they are so closed-minded, they cannot.
Think outside the box. It is like they walk around with blinder on, not.
Aware of the outside world.[/QUOTE]Well, looking at your strange punctuation, seems like you, yourself, had crushed your head too many times against the walls of the box.
[QUOTE=Mike Cockburn]In other countries there is no need for heavy controls, to get the citizens to behave well, because it is in the culture.
Long ago, even before my time, in my own homecountry, there was much more control, and the people behaved well out of fear, but then the control was removed, nevertheless the people didn't return to their old bad habits.[/QUOTE]Sure, it's like training a dog, some dogs may take more time to learn, others are faster, if you impose a new rule for a short time and you don't enforce it, the old bad habits will raise again. An example it's the Porteno law for non smoking inside of the restaurants / bars. Has been respected, and you don't see people smoking inside restaurants.
BTW, what's your home country?
[QUOTE=Dickhead] And, there are way more scoundrels here on a percentage basis than in the US. Maybe 2-3 times as many. [/QUOTE]DH,
I would hope we don't underestimate the number of scoundrels in the US. The amount of fraud, corruption and general malfeasance in the US is nothing to sneeze at. It is much more behind the scenes, if you will, in the US, but, at least in some areas, pervasive. The amount of corporate fraud / corruption has been close to out of control for quite some time, and one need go no further than to research the staggering number of companies who have worked a deal to avoid prosecution, not to mention those who were prosecuted and found gulity, and not to mention those who have not been charged, but continue with their nefarious ways. The healthcare system in the US is a veritable cesspool of fraud and corruption, from the public system to much of the private. The cozy relationship between any number of corporations and the government, and the favors doled out as a result, well, let us take a guess as to those numbers.:)
I'll stop there, but the list of guilty parties would be quite a list indeed and covering a wide area. Much deference to "doing the right thing" has been maimed, if not taken out back and shot over the past 25 years. My take is that unlike Argentina, and many other countries in south america, and elsewhere, the legal and ethical transgressions in the states tend to be hidden behind a veil of supposed honesty, suits and crisp haircuts. Thieves and slimeballs regardless. My 2 cents.
[QUOTE=Doggboy]DH,
I would hope we don't underestimate the number of scoundrels in the US. The amount of fraud, corruption and general malfeasance in the US is nothing to sneeze at. It is much more behind the scenes, if you will, in the US, but, at least in some areas, pervasive. The amount of corporate fraud / corruption has been close to out of control for quite some time, and one need go no further than to research the staggering number of companies who have worked a deal to avoid prosecution, not to mention those who were prosecuted and found gulity, and not to mention those who have not been charged, but continue with their nefarious ways. The healthcare system in the US is a veritable cesspool of fraud and corruption, from the public system to much of the private. The cozy relationship between any number of corporations and the government, and the favors doled out as a result, well, let us take a guess as to those numbers.:)
I'll stop there, but the list of guilty parties would be quite a list indeed and covering a wide area. Much deference to "doing the right thing" has been maimed, if not taken out back and shot over the past 25 years. My take is that unlike Argentina, and many other countries in south america, and elsewhere, the legal and ethical transgressions in the states tend to be hidden behind a veil of supposed honesty, suits and crisp haircuts. Thieves and slimeballs regardless. My 2 cents.[/QUOTE]And you don't obviously think that what you are prepared to say of the USA isn't going on here at a greater rate as well as the constant grafting at the personal level. I don't agree with your assertions and would like the source for your research. Having run businesses in the States and here, the degree of corruption, dishonesty and general lack of business ethics in Argentina is as bad as Indonesia, and that is as high (or could it be as low) as you can get.
And I have personal experience to support that assertion. My guess is that you have little direct business experience and have come to your opinion based on selective reading. Doing business in the US is a breeze. Here it is a constant battle to avoid being shaken down, robbed and mugged. Business here is something fitted around survival.
Argento
[QUOTE=Argento]And you don't obviously think that what you are prepared to say of the USA isn't going on here at a greater rate as well as the constant grafting at the personal level. I don't agree with your assertions and would like the source for your research. Having run businesses in the States and here, the degree of corruption, dishonesty and general lack of business ethics in Argentina is as bad as Indonesia, and that is as high (or could it be as low) as you can get.
And I have personal experience to support that assertion. My guess is that you have little direct business experience and have come to your opinion based on selective reading. Doing business in the US is a breeze. Here it is a constant battle to avoid being shaken down, robbed and mugged. Business here is something fitted around survival.
Argento[/QUOTE]Argento,
I think everybody is aware of the troubles you have experienced in running your business here. I certainly have no reason to doubt that. Also, I wouldn't get into some sort of "research based" debate on the amount / percentage of scoundrels either here, in the US, or anywhere else. IMHO there are enough of them to go around regardless of where you live, and they seem to be proliferating, again, no matter where you live. My point, that I may have poorly articulated, is that folks get gouged and taken advantage of in the USA pretty regularly, and that it has become more than a cottage industry. It is corporate orchestrated and, I believe, increasingly endemic to the society. It is much more subtle than what you will find in Argentina, as well as other latin american countries. Those are my opinions based not on a scintilla of research.
I would add that I certainly didn't intend to derail this thread from the subject of racism in Argentina. Suerte.
[QUOTE=Argento]Having run businesses in the States and here, the degree of corruption, dishonesty and general lack of business ethics in Argentina is as bad as Indonesia, and that is as high (or could it be as low) as you can get. (Doing business in the US is a breeze. Here it is a constant battle to avoid being shaken down, robbed and mugged. Business here is something fitted around survival.[/QUOTE]I've never said that Argentina is the Elysian Fields.
Truly one of our big problems is Justice. To the same amount of delinquents, let's suppose ten delinquents found guilty, in U. S. A. Very probably the ten, or at least 9 or 8 goes to jail. Here, 4 or 5. Who will possible be at liberty before a couple of months.
That I must agree.
But scoundrels are here as in everywhere.
Let's remeber, only, one of the last big scandals involucrating people of the government (of Menem) and the I. B. M. Company. The bribe was received by this functionaries, but was PAID by the I. B. M. Company. Concerning a bribe, is so guilty the one who received as the one who paid it. The question you may ask is: why the one who must paid, pays? Can it be that, even paying a bribe, the benefits are so big for the foreign company that they accepted it?
Then look at what I've just said about justice in this country, and you may get an answer.
[QUOTE=Doggboy]I would hope we don't underestimate the number of scoundrels in the US. The amount of fraud, corruption and general malfeasance in the US is nothing to sneeze at. It is much more behind the scenes, if you will, in the US, but, at least in some areas, pervasive. The amount of corporate fraud / corruption has been close to out of control for quite some time, and one need go no further than to research the staggering number of companies who have worked a deal to avoid prosecution, not to mention those who were prosecuted and found gulity, and not to mention those who have not been charged, but continue with their nefarious ways. The healthcare system in the US is a veritable cesspool of fraud and corruption, from the public system to much of the private. The cozy relationship between any number of corporations and the government, and the favors doled out as a result, well, let us take a guess as to those numbers.:)
I'll stop there, but the list of guilty parties would be quite a list indeed and covering a wide area. Much deference to "doing the right thing" has been maimed, if not taken out back and shot over the past 25 years. My take is that unlike Argentina, and many other countries in south america, and elsewhere, the legal and ethical transgressions in the states tend to be hidden behind a veil of supposed honesty, suits and crisp haircuts. Thieves and slimeballs regardless. My 2 cents.[/QUOTE]You're right, Doggboy.
That's perhaps why The Godfather was written about an italo-american gangster, and not a porteño.
[QUOTE=Argento]'Do you think the USA would have invaded Iraq if it had 20% of the world's broccoli?' [/QUOTE]What about controlling 20% of the world's pussy?
[QUOTE=Argento]Now it is being discussed, other words spring to the tongue.
Inconsiderate.
Hypocrite.
Insincere.
Opportunist.
Guile.
Rapacious.
Mendacious.
Sure they are polite and effuse friendship and helpfulness on meeting. Kissy kissy and gladhanders all. Nothing too much trouble. In the real, occidental world, panhandler is the word that best fits. But they all play the game and they all know the rules. Us gringos assume the same rules as in the occident apply. It is a big mistake because they don't. As someone once said; 'Do you think the USA would have invaded Iraq if it had 20% of the world's broccoli?' I say, 'Do you think that the Argentines who you call your friends, would be hanging around if you didn't have dough?' For those challenged by the questions, the answer is no in both instances. Sure there are a few Argentines I call friends and who have been put to the test. But there are a darn side more who failed and went for the dough, some subtley, but most quickly and crudely. Of course these people exist everywhere, it's just that most of them gravitated to Buenos Aires. The same is not for the true country people, of all classes. They in general are great value and genuinely allow you to share each other's lives.
Argento[/QUOTE]Well, it can be said from your words, you had a very bad experience with argentines here.
I'm very sorry, and I wouldn't question you about that.
But you can't draw, from a single experience, a general law.
There's a lot of testimonies, in this blog and everywhere, of foreigners having a hell of a good time in Argentina. Not only tourists. Even people who had choose this country to came to live in, marry a local girl and grow up his family.
But you seems to prefer to keep on mourning about all our faults, and how we are not what you think we should be.
It doesn't make me happy to ask this, but if you are so sure this is the cave of thiefs you think we are, instead of criticize and insult us the way you do, why don't you choose another place in the world inhabited by the kind of human beings you seem to belive still exist, and prove fortune there?
Don't get me wrong, but I truly believe that working your mind in the way you do, all you'll achieve is getting sick. I'm convinced that as long as freedom exists, nobody is obliged to stay in a place they don't like, forever.
I'm sorry, I would prefer to finish with a more optimistic message for you, but I don't see clearly at this point how.
[QUOTE=Julio]Well, it can be said from your words, you had a very bad experience with argentines here.
I'm very sorry, and I wouldn't question you about that.
But you can't draw, from a single experience, a general law.
There's a lot of testimonies, in this blog and everywhere, of foreigners having a hell of a good time in Argentina. Not only tourists. Even people who had choose this country to came to live in, marry a local girl and grow up his family.
But you seems to prefer to keep on mourning about all our faults, and how we are not what you think we should be.
It doesn't make me happy to ask this, but if you are so sure this is the cave of thiefs you think we are, instead of criticize and insult us the way you do, why don't you choose another place in the world inhabited by the kind of human beings you seem to belive still exist, and prove fortune there?
Don't get me wrong, but I truly believe that working your mind in the way you do, all you'll achieve is getting sick. I'm convinced that as long as freedom exists, nobody is obliged to stay in a place they don't like, forever.
I'm sorry, I would prefer to finish with a more optimistic message for you, but I don't see clearly at this point how.[/QUOTE]I hardly think that my opinion is based on a single experience. 18 years of doing business here has led me to my opinions. And when I need personal advice about my mental wellbeing, I will solicit it. Remember that Argentina has the highest per capita mental professionals in the world, so it is highly probable that statistic is a reflection of their mental state. So on this occasion, I will pass on taking your advice and reflect that your attitude towards criticism of Argentina is the common response. Unless your approaches are changed, the country will continue to be a basket case and the people remain amongst the most distrusted in the world.
What is true of individuals here is also true of them in a collective sense. Those adjectives I used are equally true of the government. For the last 50 years (since Peron) they have become infamous in the world for their opportunism (Falklands / Malvinas, Chile boundary disputes, las Papeleras and Uruguay) at an international level. And to continue, the so called 'Dirty War' of the 70's was conducted by Argentines of each side of the political spectrum, with the government of the day, massacring its own people, the cumulative effects still very much in play. And for good measure, how about honesty in business. The truth is there is little integrity apparent in Argentine private and public business dealings. Both groups default with never even a backwards glance at their creditors. So the financial system is disfunctional and don't even mention the baseness of the banks. The only funding for the government requirements is available from Chavez and that is at the usurous rate of 15%. Most other government's bond sales are less than a third of that rate.
So the cost of this immorality is expensive. Without doubt, the economy is going to fail. Our papers will be full of photographs of misty-eyed Argentinos, bewailing their misfortune and of course seeking to blame others. This time round there is no IMF or World Bank to blame, or the Club of Paris. Perhaps if they look in the mirror they may catch a glimpse of the culprit. After all, they are the ones who elect their government.
Argento
[QUOTE=Julio]if you are so sure this is the cave of thiefs you think we are, instead of criticize and insult us the way you do, why don't you choose another place in the world inhabited by the kind of human beings you seem to belive still exist, and prove fortune there?[/QUOTE]This is the classic Argentine response. I have heard this in many, many conversations. "Argentina is perfect." No it's not because of these reasons. "Then if it's not great why don't you leave." It rarely occurs to Argentines that foreigners might choose to stay in their country in spite of them rather than because of them.
What concerns me most about the future of Argentina is not how many expats become disgusted and decide to leave, but how many bright, young Argentines I've met in Europe and North America who have already done so. Their decisions were not so much about race or pussy but clearly about economic opportunity. Also, I don't think the prevelence of psychologists in BA is a reflection of a sicker community. I'm thinking of alot of places that could use regular couch time more than the portenos.
Come on! I don't know if it is THE cave of thieves, Ciudad del Este is worse, but surely it is a cave of thieves.
I found another interesting word "la viveza criolla". "oportunista, falso, sobrador. Holgazán, coimero why listo para hacerse de cualquier ventaja." "Zafar es una de sus grandes habilidades."
You can read more here:
[url]http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/argentina/viveza.htm[/url]
It is compiled from 100% argentinian sources.
Why am I staying?
Argentina controls 20% of the world's pussy industry.
Seriously, I think many foreigners appreciate the viveza criolla. That is, the good parts of it. That is what makes Argentina so special. It is a love and hate situation.
[QUOTE=Julio]It doesn't make me happy to ask this, but if you are so sure this is the cave of thiefs you think we are, instead of criticize and insult us the way you do, why don't you choose another place in the world inhabited by the kind of human beings you seem to belive still exist, and prove fortune there?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Mike Cockburn]Come on! I don't know if it is THE cave of thieves, Ciudad del Este is worse, but surely it is a cave of thieves.
I found another interesting word "la viveza criolla". "oportunista, falso, sobrador. Holgazán, coimero why listo para hacerse de cualquier ventaja." "Zafar es una de sus grandes habilidades."
You can read more here:
[url]http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/argentina/viveza.htm[/url]
It is compiled from 100% argentinian sources.
Why am I staying?
Argentina controls 20% of the world's pussy industry.
Seriously, I think many foreigners appreciate the viveza criolla. That is, the good parts of it. That is what makes Argentina so special. It is a love and hate situation.[/QUOTE]Thanks for the support. I guess those of us who choose to live here, like their lives a bit on the edge. Certainly that applies in my instance. But being a true skeptic, I question and want knowledge so that I can form an opinion based on facts. Personal experience is the best empirical evidence you can get. And my posts, when I offer an opinion, are based on my own experiences in business here. No bullshit! The reality as I experienced it. I choose to live and work here, but that doesn't mean that I do not see things as they are, not as they ought to be. And once you get out of the, by Argentine standards, swish tourist zonas, it's a fairly dismal and patently venal world. I wish the best for Argentina and hope they can bridge the divide between hubris and reality. My 18 years experience has only seen the gap widen. I don't have an answer (s) And if I did, my guess is it would be received like reality is received by Julio. Shoot the messenger!
Argento
[QUOTE=Argento]Personal experience is the best empirical evidence you can get. [/QUOTE]Absolutely questionable. Personal experience is nothing without a rational mind to bind the facts. Dreams are personal experiences, too. And visions blurred by the alcohol.
Hate is another big distortive of reality.
After reading all these posts I'm frankly amazed by the hell of a bad time some of you must be leading here. It's not easy waking up every day in a place you despise so much, and make up your mind to hate everyone who crosses your way. Seems to me you're the kind of people who find scoundrels and thieves everywhere. Today's Argentine, but tomorrow may be Brasil, or Mexico, Spain. Or wherever you choose to live. You'll find that people are mean, and inconsiderate and hypocrite and insincere, and so on. Because those characteristics are in your mind and in the way you see the world. If the things you say about us were true, there wouldn't be the amount of people every day, from everyplace of the world came to visit this place. And as I already said, establish themselves for work and living.
Three opinions put together doesn't make a reality.
Come on, Argento, put down your resentment for a while and look around you what a beautiful place you, yourself, once choose to live in. What's donne is donne, and perhaps you had a bad experience with the wrong person, but that doesn't mean we argentines are all the same.
Let's meet one day for a beer, if you want, and let's talk about this or whatever you like.
As Doggboy said some posts ago, this thread has deriled from it's initial topic, wich was racism.
Mongers,
I have been living and doing business here for over three years now, and can without a doubt testify that Argentines are the most dishonest people I have encountered in any of the 25 or so countries I have visited. As my former friend DudeinBA once told me, they are simply "TRUTH CHALLENGED". I have visited Colombia, Paraguay, Brasil, Bolivia, Uruguay, Peru, and Chile and Argentina is the only one where I have to watch every little detail anytime money is involved. When I travel to these other countries, I have to constantly remind myself that I am not in Argentina anymore and that I can relax and let my guard down a bit when it comes to issues involving money.
This corruption is prevalent in both the private and public sectors; in the private sector nearly every single person selling you something over the long term will attempt to screw you whether it be through deceptive price raising or shortchanging quantity of product. In the public sector, every level is thoroughly corrupt, whether it be the garbage man, police, politicians, or public health workers. They all either steal public funds or solicit and accept bribes. The corruption is so deeply ingrained in the culture and society that the people hardly blink an eye when $800,000 USD shows up in a suitcase meant for the future president or when $80,000 USD is mysteriously found in the bathroom of the office of the Minister of Economy. Can you imagine if this amount of undocumented cash was discovered in the hands or connected to a prominant policitian or minister in the USA or Europe? That person would be in jail for a long, long time, in Argentina they elect that person President or appoint their husband to a highly paid gnocchi job.
How about the inflation index? Could their possibly be anything more dishonest than the rubbish that the INDEC publishes? The INDEC, which is a puppet of the Kirchners, estimates inflation is 11% when in fact it is 3X higher. On another issue, the Argentina's external debt has risen to levels HIGHER than what they were at the time of the 2002 default. Argentina doesn't care what interest rate they have to pay to finance new bonds because they know within a few years they will just default again anyway and stop making payments.
The Argentines have nobody but themselves to blame for this corrupt third world quagmire they have created. They have a culture of corruption here because they tolerate a culture of corruption. They know that lying and stealing are immoral, they do have bibles here, as they are all "catholics", yet they engage in it as a society and they tolerate it from their peers. The people seeking high public office in Argentina are simply seeking a license to steal and enrich themselves and their associates through said graft and corruption. My former boss down here used to always tell me in reference to the Argentines, "they are so stupid they do not know they are stupid".
That said, Buenos Aires is one of my favorite cities in the world, and is surely one of the most entertaining and energetic. It truly is the wild west here, there are almost no rules here, it is still cheaper than other places on it level, and there is a ton of cheap (pros) and accessible (nonpros) pussy around. It truly is a damn good place to live as an expat, and I would not trade the last three years of my life here for anything.
Suerte,
Rock Harders
What does happen when a member of the U. S. House of Representatives is found with $90,000.00, In his refrigerator?
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Jefferson[/url]
And one for the other team, Ted Stevens from Alasaka.
[url]http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a4U6k9fZABc0&refer=home[/url]
I agree with R Harders-please split this thread off. At this point it is a long way from the topic of racism in Argentina.
[QUOTE=Rock Harders]Mongers,
This corruption is prevalent in both the private and public sectors; in the private sector nearly every single person selling you something over the long term will attempt to screw you whether it be through deceptive price raising or shortchanging quantity of product. In the public sector, every level is thoroughly corrupt, whether it be the garbage man, police, politicians, or public health workers. They all either steal public funds or solicit and accept bribes. The corruption is so deeply ingrained in the culture and society that the people hardly blink an eye when $800,000 USD shows up in a suitcase meant for the future president or when $80,000 USD is mysteriously found in the bathroom of the office of the Minister of Economy. Can you imagine if this amount of undocumented cash was discovered in the hands or connected to a prominant policitian or minister in the USA or Europe? That person would be in jail for a long, long time, in Argentina they elect that person President or appoint their husband to a highly paid gnocchi job.
How about the inflation index? Could their possibly be anything more dishonest than the rubbish that the INDEC publishes? The INDEC, which is a puppet of the Kirchners, estimates inflation is 11% when in fact it is 3X higher. On another issue, the Argentina's external debt has risen to levels HIGHER than what they were at the time of the 2002 default. Argentina doesn't care what interest rate they have to pay to finance new bonds because they know within a few years they will just default again anyway and stop making payments.
The Argentines have nobody but themselves to blame for this corrupt third world quagmire they have created. They have a culture of corruption here because they tolerate a culture of corruption. They know that lying and stealing are immoral, they do have bibles here, as they are all "catholics", yet they engage in it as a society and they tolerate it from their peers. The people seeking high public office in Argentina are simply seeking a license to steal and enrich themselves and their associates through said graft and corruption. My former boss down here used to always tell me in reference to the Argentines, "they are so stupid they do not know they are stupid".
Rock Harders[/QUOTE]The talk about public, ie. Government, lying and cheating, leads me to relate the truth about the gas supply. I couldn't figure out why my stove was so slow to heat water and next to impossible to cook stir fried food. One of my friend's son-in-law is fairly senior in the overseeing authority and I chanced to ask him, presuming that it was simply a lower calorific gas. Damn right, but not naturally occurring. What the base bastards are doing is pumping common air into the gas supply and diluting the supply. As gas has become more difficult, rather than increasing the tariff, they have pushed more air into the mix. Some days it is impossible to get a full flame, so it is obviously a moveable feast. I think that is venal to the extreme. But seems to work at a political level.
Argento
[QUOTE=Rock Harders]Mongers,
I have been living and doing business here for over three years now, and can without a doubt testify that Argentines are the most dishonest people I have encountered in any of the 25 or so countries I have visited. As my former friend DudeinBA once told me, they are simply "TRUTH CHALLENGED". I have visited Colombia, Paraguay, Brasil, Bolivia, Uruguay, Peru, and Chile and Argentina is the only one where I have to watch every little detail anytime money is involved. When I travel to these other countries, I have to constantly remind myself that I am not in Argentina anymore and that I can relax and let my guard down a bit when it comes to issues involving money.
This corruption is prevalent in both the private and public sectors; in the private sector nearly every single person selling you something over the long term will attempt to screw you whether it be through deceptive price raising or shortchanging quantity of product. In the public sector, every level is thoroughly corrupt, whether it be the garbage man, police, politicians, or public health workers. They all either steal public funds or solicit and accept bribes. The corruption is so deeply ingrained in the culture and society that the people hardly blink an eye when $800,000 USD shows up in a suitcase meant for the future president or when $80,000 USD is mysteriously found in the bathroom of the office of the Minister of Economy. Can you imagine if this amount of undocumented cash was discovered in the hands or connected to a prominant policitian or minister in the USA or Europe? That person would be in jail for a long, long time, in Argentina they elect that person President or appoint their husband to a highly paid gnocchi job.
How about the inflation index? Could their possibly be anything more dishonest than the rubbish that the INDEC publishes? The INDEC, which is a puppet of the Kirchners, estimates inflation is 11% when in fact it is 3X higher. On another issue, the Argentina's external debt has risen to levels HIGHER than what they were at the time of the 2002 default. Argentina doesn't care what interest rate they have to pay to finance new bonds because they know within a few years they will just default again anyway and stop making payments.
The Argentines have nobody but themselves to blame for this corrupt third world quagmire they have created. They have a culture of corruption here because they tolerate a culture of corruption. They know that lying and stealing are immoral, they do have bibles here, as they are all "catholics", yet they engage in it as a society and they tolerate it from their peers. The people seeking high public office in Argentina are simply seeking a license to steal and enrich themselves and their associates through said graft and corruption. My former boss down here used to always tell me in reference to the Argentines, "they are so stupid they do not know they are stupid".
That said, Buenos Aires is one of my favorite cities in the world, and is surely one of the most entertaining and energetic. It truly is the wild west here, there are almost no rules here, it is still cheaper than other places on it level, and there is a ton of cheap (pros) and accessible (nonpros) pussy around. It truly is a damn good place to live as an expat, and I would not trade the last three years of my life here for anything.
Suerte,
Rock Harders[/QUOTE]So, one should think you're on the "smart side".
Looking at your posts seems like a good joke.
You resemble more an Homero Simpsons on exile, mourning forever, than a happy and intelligent fellow. But O.K., I may be wrong because your are the smart guy who knows we're all stupid, so go on shiting everybody. That must be a demonstration of intelligence... (¡?)
[QUOTE=Rock Harders]My former boss down here used to always tell me in reference to the Argentines, "they are so stupid they do not know they are stupid".
Rock Harders[/QUOTE]Point well on the way to be proved again.
Argento
[QUOTE=Argento]Point well on the way to be proved again.
Argento[/QUOTE]Should I think, too, that insulting from behind a P. C. Must be another demonstration of intelligence?
My ex, bless her heart, 100% Portenya used to sit in her apartment where she had cable and internet she was stealing from fibertel, cooking on a stove that was heated by gas she was being charged a lower rate for because her apartment was somehow on record for being unoccupied, spending money that she had never been taxed for because she had never, ever reported it for over ten years, talking about the corruption of the politicos.
Once I walked out of Habana forgetting to pay the bill, I had been sitting outside waiting for her, when I saw her I just stood up and left. A couple blocks away I remembered I hadn't paid, she was astounded when I turned around and went back. The really amazing thing was so were the girls at the Habana.
A very good friend of mine there wanted a laptop so he had it sent to me when I was coming down. He was astounded that I brought it and didn't want payment for bringing it.
The only place in the world I ever got counterfeit money from an ATM was in BsAs at the Banco Francais in Colegialis. I saw it was trucho and walked in to address it, the managers answer "Imposible" nothing was done.
As far as Provincia, when my buddy got married less people showed up at the reception than he had planned for. His new sister in law demanded and received a rebate from the caterer. She stuffed it in her purse, I asked my buddy about it later, she never gave it to him.
It's ingrained, received with their mothers milk, everybody given the chance will screw you so you are justified in screwing them first. They don't see it as screwing, it's just how things work. Just like boxing, protect yourself at all times.
I'm not saying it's good or bad, like Rock I really loved living in BsAs and can't wait to get back but to say that their understanding of honesty isn't a tad different from American or European (with the exception of Italy) practices is delusional. The funny part to me and it is funny, like a nation of three year olds it is always "they" never "us". We are the good people, they are the bad. Remember the IMF debt, the reason given for the default essentially was "You knew we wouldn't be able to afford to pay this back when you gave it to us, so it's really your fault for loaning us the money."
Alexander Solzhenitsyn, who has just died, has been the subject of many articles in the last few weeks. The current issue of 'The Economist' quotes him as saying that the only response to authoritarian government by intelligent people is;
"DON'T LIE! DON'T PARTICIPATE IN LIES! DON'T SUPPORT A LIE!"
And that in a nutshell is the kernel of truth responsible for this sad country.
Argento
[QUOTE=Daddy Rulz]her Remember the IMF debt, the reason given for the default essentially was "You knew we wouldn't be able to afford to pay this back when you gave it to us, so it's really your fault for loaning us the money."[/QUOTE]Time's shortly coming up for them to pay Chavez his interest and when they don't have the dough, I wonder what the response will be, both from Chavez wanting his usurious interest and the Kirchners when they can't and won't pay. Might just cause a rift or two in the up to now, socialist harmony. My guess is no more kissy kissy.
Argento
[QUOTE=Argento]Time's shortly coming up for them to pay Chavez his interest and when they don't have the dough, I wonder what the response will be, both from Chavez wanting his usurious interest and the Kirchners when they can't and won't pay. Might just cause a rift or two in the up to now, socialist harmony. My guess is no more kissy kissy.
Argento[/QUOTE]In the BA Herald of yesterday it was written that Chavez sold his bonds already. So whoever they have to pay, it won't be Chavez.
[QUOTE=Seaman]In the BA Herald of yesterday it was written that Chavez sold his bonds already. So whoever they have to pay, it won't be Chavez.[/QUOTE]Yes, it was reported in all the locals. The rider is of course, that Chavez sold them on with a guarantee. He in the end, bears the responsibility for a no-show. And with the bond discounts, I am sure he made 4 or 5%. Not bad dough on a turn in a few days and in U$ Dollars. U$50 or 60 million is serious dough.
Argento
[QUOTE=Mike Cockburn]The ex-owners of Aerolineas, Marsans, surely commited many mistakes, but how can you run an airline when they strike ALL the time. Well, they couldn't, so Marsans left.[/QUOTE]The history of Aerolíneas since privatization is a complex one, and involved different owners and operators such as Iberia, American Airlines, LAN Chile and such.
I agree that endlessly striking cannot be supported by any company, but unfortunately it's the only way workers have to voice up their claims. If the work-relations courts worked as they should, other negotiation channels would be preferable by all actors (provided that all actors behaved in good faith, something I don't think is the case in the Aerolíneas case since, among other things, Marsans oversold tickets)
Andres