American Politics during the Obama Presidency

[QUOTE=Black Shirt; 431043]I read that 1 in 4 Americans have criminal records, the same for mental illness. Americans are dropping in their educational standards, Americans have hugh credit card debts. Why? How?

It seems ethics, morality, discipline are going by the wayside. Self destruction started down the slippery slope many decades ago, but it is almost full bloom now. All this hate talk about tyranny, liberty & freedom is part of the self destruction. I saw a guy who sounded like Russ Limbaugh, but he turn out to be Alex Jones. Where they find him? Should I fear him or should I fear the government. Oklahoma City revisited.

Happy New Year[/QUOTE]Perhaps you should fear both.

The Oklahoma City bombers claimed the bombing was motivated by the federal governments mishandling of the Waco Siege (1993) and the Ruby Ridge incident (1992). The bombing claimed 168 lives, [b]19 were children, [/b] More than 680 people were injured.

[b]Number of shots fired zero. [/b]

Punter thou dost protest too much. Name calling and personal attacks? I called out your clear evasiveness to place any blame on your own party. If you take every critique of your words and actions as a personal attack, you'll go through life being easily offended and angered.

You finally admitted that Republicans shared the blame. Which was my singular point. Conceding my point is inconsistent with your claim I was desperate and my argument was weak. You're not making any sense, but we've seen this type of reaction from you before.

Guess what. I hadn't stated my personal opinion on the indefinite detention issue. In fact, I agree with you. There is a potential for abuse here and Americans should have the right to due process. I believe this because this is the opinion I've formulated myself, not because the Constitution said so. I'm happy to blame both Obama and Congress for failing to strip this power from the NDAA. But I'm not too worked up about it, as I really haven't seen the power being abused and doubt it would be.

[QUOTE=Punter 127;431025]I've got a big problem with people like you that want to walk on the Constitution in order to further a political agenda.[/QUOTE]Understand this. People like me aren't motivated to "walk on" the Constitution, for an agenda or any other reason. We are motivated to examine problems and take action to address them. We do this by critical thinking, not blind adherence to a document. If there is something in the Constitution that may be contributing to an important problem, you bet it's up for discussion.

I never saw a bottle of cyanide jump up, run out and kill anyone.

[QUOTE=Black Shirt; 431043]I read that 1 in 4 Americans have criminal records, the same for mental illness. Americans are dropping in their educational standards, Americans have hugh credit card debts. Why? How?

It seems ethics, morality, discipline are going by the wayside. Self destruction started down the slippery slope many decades ago, but it is almost full bloom now. All this hate talk about tyranny, liberty & freedom is part of the self destruction. I saw a guy who sounded like Russ Limbaugh, but he turn out to be Alex Jones. Where they find him? Should I fear him or should I fear the government. Oklahoma City revisited.

Happy New Year[/QUOTE]Black Shirt-I share your many concerns about the USA's self destructive path. I also feel the pain of the gun enthusiasts who fear that the tide is turning against them. As you know, President Obama and I are quite close. He has surreptitiously attended many of my lavish barbecues thrown in my back yard in Lat Phrao. I explained some of my concerns to him recently. Being the gracious fellow he is, he agreed with my suggestion that the government provide FREE firearms and ammo to those gun owners who may be forced to relinquish their more hazardous firearms. I offer an example of these firearms and ammo, to be given FREE, in photographs below.

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[QUOTE=Esten;431066]Punter thou dost protest too much. Name calling and personal attacks? I called out your clear evasiveness to place any blame on your own party. If you take every critique of your words and actions as a personal attack, you'll go through life being easily offended and angered.[/quote]Wrong in so many ways, first of all I have stated many times that I am NOT a member of the GOP and never have been, I was once however a member of the Democrat party, but I grew up, wised up, and figured out I didn't want to be a socialist.

You can crawfish all you want but I think everyone who saw your post understood what you were implying. But I am really touched by your concern for my well being, but you needn't bother yourself I'll be just fine without your help, especially considering how busy you are trashing the Constitution.

As long as you continue to spread left-wing propaganda I will continue to protest.

[QUOTE=Esten;431066]You finally admitted that Republicans shared the blame. Which was my singular point. Conceding my point is inconsistent with your claim I was desperate and my argument was weak. You're not making any sense, but we've seen this type of reaction from you before.[/quote]I never denied Republican involvement but it's a secondary point. What part of the fact that a bill doesn't become law until the President signs it don't you understand? Except in a override situation the buck stops with the president. In the future it will be remembered that NDAA 2013 became law under Obama, it won't be known as having become law under the 112th congress. How can I make it simpler for you?

[QUOTE=Esten;431066]Guess what. I hadn't stated my personal opinion on the indefinite detention issue. In fact, I agree with you. There is a potential for abuse here and Americans should have the right to due process. I believe this because this is the opinion I've formulated myself, not because the Constitution said so. I'm happy to blame both Obama and Congress for failing to strip this power from the NDAA. But I'm not too worked up about it, as I really haven't seen the power being abused and doubt it would be.[/quote]I'm glad to hear that you at least support some individual rights, even if your reasoning is a bit askew. I caution you against being insouciant about this, anytime you give government a power sooner or later they will use it.

I noticed you didn't bother to give your 'personal opinion' about assassinating American citizens just because some government agency labels them a "terrorist". Why?

[QUOTE=Esten;431066]Understand this. People like me aren't motivated to "walk on" the Constitution, for an agenda or any other reason. We are motivated to examine problems and take action to address them. We do this by critical thinking, not blind adherence to a document. If there is something in the Constitution that may be contributing to an important problem, you bet it's up for discussion.[/QUOTE]Understand this. The Constitution of the United States Of America is NOT just a 'document'! Your 'critical thinking' is irrelevant when it comes to the Constitution. You don't have to like it and there is a procedure (doesn't include executive order) to change it, but you can not circumvent or ignore it, and you are required to obey it. Like it or not the Constitution IS the supreme law of our land.

[QUOTE=Black Shirt;431043]I read that 1 in 4 Americans have criminal records.[/QUOTE]That number includes every person who has ever been arrested, regardless of the eventual disposition of the originating charge. It does NOT reflect of the number of citizens who have been convicted of felonies or even misdemeanors.

The percentage of Americans who have been convicted of a felony is about 2.5% of the entire population of the country. That's 1 in 40.

Thanks,

Jackson

[QUOTE=Jackson; 431105]That number includes every person who has ever been arrested, regardless of the eventual disposition of the originating charge. It does NOT reflect of the number of citizens who have been convicted of felonies or even misdemeanors.

The percentage of Americans who have been convicted of a felony is about 2. 5% of the entire population of the country. That's 1 in 40.

Thanks,

Jackson[/QUOTE]His quote regarding what he read is solely a statement on what he wants to believe, and / or what sources he selects to read. Just standard bash the Yankee rubbish. To be taken with a grain of salt. Monger on all. Toymann

[QUOTE=Toymann;431108]His quote regarding what he read is solely a statement on what he wants to believe, and / or what sources he selects to read. Just standard bash the Yankee rubbish. To be taken with a grain of salt. Monger on all. Toymann[/QUOTE]Glad to know that everything is cool & humming, cash in the pockets, people warm, smiling and happy. Nothing that can't be solve with a handshake. Looking forward to my arrival in Los Angeles in about 6 weeks. Wall Street has been kind to me.

Punter, if you're not a member of the GOP or don't otherwise support them, let's just rephrase it that you evaded assigning responsibility to anyone except Obama. Same point. Anyways, I hope you don't give Congress a free pass. They are elected representatives and have power and responsibilities. Yes people and the media tend to focus on the President under which a law was passed. But that doesn't mean we don't or shouldn't hold Congress accountable as well. Congress has tremendous influence on what happens. Sometimes, a President is forced to sign legislation he does not entirely approve, as it may be the best deal he can get, and the consequences of not signing it may be worse.

[QUOTE=Punter 127;431086]I noticed you didn't bother to give your 'personal opinion' about assassinating American citizens just because some government agency labels them a "terrorist". Why?[/QUOTE]Another issue I'm not too concerned with. But since you asked I gave it some thought. Consistent with my opinion on indefinite detention and right to due process, in principle I am against assassinating American citizens just on the basis of government labelling them a "terrorist". HOWEVER, I will concede an exception. Which is if the person is abroad and cannot be detained, and the government has evidence or probable cause the person is involved in terrorism. If an American is plotting a terrorist attack on the US, and we cannot detain him, do we do nothing? These are the tough questions in the war on terror. In this case I will give our government and it's intelligence operations (which have a pretty good record) the benefit of the doubt and allow them to take the guy out, rather than risk a terrorist attack on other Americans. Again, I arrive at my position through critical thinking, not blindly following an ideology or principle. If I see abuse of such power, I would then re-evaluate my position.

[QUOTE=Esten;431067]I never saw a bottle of cyanide jump up, run out and kill anyone.[/QUOTE]Also, I never saw a person shoot bullets without a gun.

[QUOTE=Esten;431129]Also, I never saw a person shoot bullets without a gun.[/QUOTE]I have. Not very effective though.

I took some money out of Wall Street just in case the Teabaggers decide on self immolation tactics over spending cuts. Unlike our Buddhist and Muslim brethren, I just don't see that kind of commitment by our evangelical friends extending to real physical acts. Figuratively speaking, they could get self immolated themselves in 2014 House elections if they do not want to be part of the process. Then, maybe, they will emigrate to Siberia. The writing is on the wall, the bush is burning, yet, they are acting out like the blind jihadists that we so dispised. Blind Faith.

Not saying spending cuts should not be top priority, but it's like putting on the condom before sticking your dick in some hole, There are priorities, and there is PRIORITY.

[QUOTE=Black Shirt; 431151]I took some money out of Wall Street just in case the Teabaggers decide on self immolation tactics over spending cuts. Unlike our Buddhist and Muslim brethren, I just don't see that kind of commitment by our evangelical friends extending to real physical acts. Figuratively speaking, they could get self immolated themselves in 2014 House elections if they do not want to be part of the process. Then, maybe, they will emigrate to Siberia. The writing is on the wall, the Bush is burning, yet, they are acting out like the blind jihadists that we so dispised. Blind Faith.

Not saying spending cuts should not be top priority, but it's like putting on the condom before sticking your dick in some hole, There are priorities, and there is PRIORITY.[/QUOTE]What happened to your lectures about excessive debt and a culture that spends, spends, spends? I agreed with that.

You're right about one thing, the 'teabaggers' may get immolated in the 2014 House elections, for trying to do the right thing. That's because many Americans are spoiled and stupid, and believe government can continue to spend money wildly and inefficiently. And they won't have to pay for it – if people making over $200, 000 or $300, 000 a year will just pay a little more, there will be plenty to cover the deficits in the federal government and Medicare and Social Security. What a joke!

The 'teabaggers' are all that stands between the USA as it is now and a situation like Greece. All Democrats and the majority of Republicans would spend us into oblivion.

[QUOTE=Tiny12; 431153]What happened to your lectures about excessive debt and a culture that spends, spends, spends? I agreed with that.

You're right about one thing, the 'teabaggers' may get immolated in the 2014 House elections, for trying to do the right thing. That's because many Americans are spoiled and stupid, and believe government can continue to spend money wildly and inefficiently. And they won't have to pay for it – if people making over $200, 000 or $300, 000 a year will just pay a little more, there will be plenty to cover the deficits in the federal government and Medicare and Social Security. What a joke!

The 'teabaggers' are all that stands between the USA as it is now and a situation like Greece. All Democrats and the majority of Republicans would spend us into oblivion.[/QUOTE]I think we can make a deal and be very happy about it. But the politics of trying to ruin Obama the last 4 years has been destructive to America. So, if you cannot take the blame for that, forget it! Obama is taking shit from his own party's extremists, in case you didn't realize it. He already caved in twice to Bush's tax cuts. But the stone throwing never ceases. Guess who's coming to dinner? This time, he's here to stay. Better have a pep talk with your inner self!

Nothing can be done overnight. Short term job recovery and long term deficit reduction, tatoo that on your forehead and we will be able to craft something that is going to work out. Are you and I better off than 4 years ago? You bet we are! 2012 was a year that you could have made money investing in just about anything that you threw your money at blindfolded. So stop all the propaganda about socialism and communism. Just to let you know where I am at, they should make everybody that makes $50, 000+ pay taxes. If they don't like it, they can emigrate somewhere else. And that is not government tyranny. I could go on but I should quit before Toyman gets a hard on for me.

[QUOTE=Black Shirt;431163]Just to let you know where I am at, they should make everybody that makes $50, 000+ pay taxes. If they don't like it, they can emigrate somewhere else. And that is not government tyranny. I could go on but I should quit before Toyman gets a hard on for me.[/QUOTE]Now we are talking! Always knew you had it in a BS. In my past socialist life only two things were a given! Everybody paid taxes but HeLL, healthcare was free. How the US ever got to the point where nearly half the population doesn't pay income tax, sure as hell beats me. As much as the Esten types just love this program, it will absolutely be the end of us! Just look north of the US border for a prime example. Canada has never done better and appears to be built to last! Everybody that earns a paycheck PAYS income tax, there are virtually NO tax exemptions, and an energy and geologically wealthy nation exploits its natural resources, to the sha-grin of the tree huggers!

Never really thought you were a hater, just threw that out to see if it stuck. Happy mongering BS. Toymann

Ps. You have to admit the 1 in 4 Americans with a criminal record was a tad over the top! LMAO

[QUOTE=Black Shirt;431163]I think we can make a deal and be very happy about it. But the politics of trying to ruin Obama the last 4 years has been destructive to America. So, if you cannot take the blame for that, forget it! Obama is taking shit from his own party's extremists, in case you didn't realize it. He already caved in twice to Bush's tax cuts. But the stone throwing never ceases.[/QUOTE]You're re-writing history. Obama is in favor of the Bush tax cuts for all but the 2% of taxpayers that make over $250,000 per year. What's been destructive to America over the last 4 years has been $1 trillion+ budget deficits. How that's going to end if you raise taxes on the top 2% and raise $100 billion per year, if you leave spending untouched, especially given the increases in Medicare spending coming down the pike? Obama apparently doesn't give a rat's ass about future generations or the shape the country's in after he leaves office.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;431165]You're re-writing history. Obama is in favor of the Bush tax cuts for all but the 2% of taxpayers that make over $250,000 per year. What's been destructive to America over the last 4 years has been $1 trillion+ budget deficits. How that's going to end if you raise taxes on the top 2% and raise $100 billion per year, if you leave spending untouched, especially given the increases in Medicare spending coming down the pike? Obama apparently doesn't give a rat's ass about future generations or the shape the country's in after he leaves office.[/QUOTE]I see your mind is already in the set mode. Outside the Kremlin, there are still some diehards marching for the good old days of the USSR. And here you are, saying you are willing to plunge down the fiscal cliff? And I thought you were a reasonable guy. Business leaders have already conceded that they can still make alot of money despite higher income rates. As for spending cuts, are you sure it is zero or is it up for negotiations?

[QUOTE=Esten; 431128]Punter, if you're not a member of the GOP or don't otherwise support them, let's just rephrase it that you evaded assigning responsibility to anyone except Obama. Same point. Anyways, I hope you don't give Congress a free pass. They are elected representatives and have power and responsibilities. Yes people and the media tend to focus on the President under which a law was passed. But that doesn't mean we don't or shouldn't hold Congress accountable as well. Congress has tremendous influence on what happens. Sometimes, a President is forced to sign legislation he does not entirely approve, as it may be the best deal he can get, and the consequences of not signing it may be worse.[/QUOTE]Esten you can phrase it anyway you want, thanks to our [i]'blindly following an ideology or principle'[/i] better known as the Constitution you have freedom of speech. The primary purpose of my original post was to show that Members 2041 was incorrect.

FYI I don't even vote in primary elections because I refuse to declare a political party. In my eyes the words politician and criminal pretty much go hand and hand and I want them all held accountable. But be forewarned when you start attacking the Constitution it's time for the gloves to come off.

[QUOTE=Esten;431128]Another issue I'm not too concerned with. But since you asked I gave it some thought. Consistent with my opinion on indefinite detention and right to due process, in principle I am against assassinating American citizens just on the basis of government labelling them a "terrorist". HOWEVER, I will concede an exception. Which is if the person is abroad and cannot be detained, and the government has evidence or probable cause the person is involved in terrorism. If an American is plotting a terrorist attack on the US, and we cannot detain him, do we do nothing? These are the tough questions in the war on terror. In this case I will give our government and it's intelligence operations (which have a pretty good record) the benefit of the doubt and allow them to take the guy out, rather than risk a terrorist attack on other Americans. Again, I arrive at my position through critical thinking, not blindly following an ideology or principle. If I see abuse of such power, I would then re-evaluate my position.[/QUOTE]That's a lot of "if", however I don't believe the Bill of Rights has any "if" in it.

Would you feel the same way if Bush was POTUS?

How do we know if there's any abuse of power, who does the government present its evidence to? Once you allow the Government to become Judge, Jury, and Executioner at their own discretion you are on a very slippery slope. That type of power is very hard to take back.

You and WT69 really should take the time to read the Constitution, it is after all the supreme law of our land. Like it or not.

Having seen & read todays news I'm a little concerned about Stranger garding those Oil Fields.

Does anybody know anything?

Exon

[QUOTE=Exon123; 431192]Having seen & read todays news I'm a little concerned about Stranger garding those Oil Fields.

Does anybody know anything?

Exon[/QUOTE]I just got an email from him and he is OK. I was nervous.

[QUOTE=Rocky2;431194]I just got an email from him and he is OK. I was nervous.[/QUOTE]The Strange One can take care of himself and leave no prisoners!

We all wish him the best in that awful place!

TL

[QUOTE=Punter 127;431176]That's a lot of "if", however I don't believe the Bill of Rights has any "if" in it.[/QUOTE]OK, we won't go after an American who joins Al-Qaida and isn't easily detained. We'll just let him continue his plan to attack us. Hundreds or thousands of Americans may die, but we'll feel good knowing we didn't violate the Bill of Rights.

[QUOTE]Would you feel the same way if Bush was POTUS?[/QUOTE]Absolutely, 100%.

[QUOTE]How do we know if there's any abuse of power, who does the government present its evidence to? Once you allow the Government to become Judge, Jury, and Executioner at their own discretion you are on a very slippery slope. That type of power is very hard to take back.[/QUOTE]We may not always know. But if the names are public, the media will cover it, and we can have an open discussion and assessment. I believe such decisions are not made lightly, and are made in the interests of national security, which is a role of the federal government. This was the case with Al-awaki, and no one is crying over him. Of course, if you think the government is your enemy, you may not share this view. You can trade the risk of one innocent American being killed, for the risk of hundreds or thousands being killed. That's exactly what you'll be doing.

[QUOTE=Esten;431129]Also, I never saw a person shoot bullets without a gun.[/QUOTE]I think I figured it out:

It's the [b]combination[/b] of [b]guns + people[/b] that results in gun violence.

Yeah, that's it.

So when someone says "Guns don't kill people, people do", you are dealing with someone who does not have a grasp on reality.

[QUOTE=Black Shirt;431167]I see your mind is already in the set mode. Outside the Kremlin, there are still some diehards marching for the good old days of the USSR. And here you are, saying you are willing to plunge down the fiscal cliff? And I thought you were a reasonable guy. Business leaders have already conceded that they can still make alot of money despite higher income rates. As for spending cuts, are you sure it is zero or is it up for negotiations?[/QUOTE]Black Shirt, for every $1. 00 that the federal government takes in, it spends $1. 40. I don't care if it's heroin or debt owed by a family or a business or a government, it's all the same thing, an addiction. The federal government is addicted to debt, and it appears that you, Obama, most Democrats and many Republicans don't give a crap. Obama and other politicians don't care because they'll be out of office before this catches up with them. I don't know about your reasons. Either you're old enough that you'll be dead before the USA goes bankrupt, or maybe you're a pollyanna. Anyway, the "teabaggers" are the only ones out there actually trying to do something about the problem. They do it at great political risk, because their position isn't popular, even though it's right. They don't deserve to be demonized. I'm as close as you can get to a card carrying member BTW, and contrary to your beliefs am not an evangelical nor do I believe in self immolation. And yes, spending cuts are up for negotiations, but as long as Obama is president and Democrats control the Senate there will be no progress.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;431229]Black Shirt, for every $1. 00 that the federal government takes in, it spends $1. 40. I don't care if it's heroin or debt owed by a family or a business or a government, it's all the same thing, an addiction. The federal government is addicted to debt, and it appears that you, Obama, most Democrats and many Republicans don't give a crap. Obama and other politicians don't care because they'll be out of office before this catches up with them. I don't know about your reasons. Either you're old enough that you'll be dead before the USA goes bankrupt, or maybe you're a pollyanna. Anyway, the "teabaggers" are the only ones out there actually trying to do something about the problem. They do it at great political risk, because their position isn't popular, even though it's right. They don't deserve to be demonized. I'm as close as you can get to a card carrying member BTW, and contrary to your beliefs am not an evangelical nor do I believe in self immolation. And yes, spending cuts are up for negotiations, but as long as Obama is president and Democrats control the Senate there will be no progress.[/QUOTE]With any addiction, I believe we have to admit to a problem, then find out the underlying causes and then prepare a plan for rehabilation. And of course, I think you know that we cannot conquer the addiction overnight or in one session. Addiction can often be a lifetime challenge.

So, where is the rot? The story of Lance Armstrong is the story of America today. I know, I know! I don't know shit! But just pause before you get enraged here. All I am trying to say is that when fame, power & wealth are your compass points, then an artificial wasteland awaits you. Just ask the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians or even the Chinese. Even as your garages & stomachs are full, the degneration has already started.

And then we have the politics of self destruction. Smearing & yelling, parroting talking points has taken over debate & discussion. So many con-men, talking on tv, making big bucks, saying things they do not believe in. They have sold they souls for the Almighty Dollar. The gun issue is a perfect example of a dysfunctional politics and society. Its not about public or private safety, or the 2nd Amendment, or hunting sports. If you really take a deep look, it's all about money. As the Indians remarked, the White Man (power) speaks with forked tongue. Self-Interests and their dildos (lobby) creates confusion and tap deep-seated prejuices. You are being controlled by Corporate America even as you are shouting against Big Government.

Take a break here, this is quite exhaustive.

[QUOTE=Black Shirt;431246]Take a break here, this is quite exhaustive.[/QUOTE]Good advice, after reading your last post I got a sudden urge to find a sword and then fall on it! Pretty dark place you live BS. Why so dark BS? Inquiring minds want to know. Happy mongering all. Toymann

[QUOTE=Toymann;431248]Good advice, after reading your last post I got a sudden urge to find a sword and then fall on it! Pretty dark place you live BS. Why so dark BS? Inquiring minds want to know. Happy mongering all. Toymann[/QUOTE]It is a dark time in America today when compared to America in the 60s & 70s. But I am very optimistic guy, and enjoying being alive, and like to think the best of people that I meet. Nothing wrong with making lots of money as long as you can live and enjoy a healthy and productive life at the same time.

[QUOTE=Black Shirt;431255]It is a dark time in America today when compared to America in the 60s & 70s. But I am very optimistic guy, and enjoying being alive, and like to think the best of people that I meet. Nothing wrong with making lots of money as long as you can live and enjoy a healthy and productive life at the same time.[/QUOTE]Ok. Starting to see where you might be coming from. Really can't share your experience as I was only a child in the 60s. LOL. Didn't immigrate to the US till early 90s and its wasn't that far a relocation. I live in an area that most likely hasn't changed that much from the times you lament have passed. Guess for me, the US is still a killer place to live. Have always marinated US was best country in the world to live in as long as you don't have to live in a big US city. Just my dos centavos BS. Toymann

[QUOTE=Black Shirt; 431246]With any addiction, I believe we have to admit to a problem, then find out the underlying causes and then prepare a plan for rehabilation. And of course, I think you know that we cannot conquer the addiction overnight or in one session. Addiction can often be a lifetime challenge.

So, where is the rot? The story of Lance Armstrong is the story of America today. I know, I know! I don't know shit! But just pause before you get enraged here. All I am trying to say is that when fame, power & wealth are your compass points, then an artificial wasteland awaits you. Just ask the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians or even the Chinese. Even as your garages & stomachs are full, the degneration has already started.

And then we have the politics of self destruction. Smearing & yelling, parroting talking points has taken over debate & discussion. So many con-men, talking on tv, making big bucks, saying things they do not believe in. They have sold they souls for the Almighty Dollar. The gun issue is a perfect example of a dysfunctional politics and society. Its not about public or private safety, or the 2nd Amendment, or hunting sports. If you really take a deep look, it's all about money. As the Indians remarked, the White Man (power) speaks with forked tongue. Self-Interests and their dildos (lobby) creates confusion and tap deep-seated prejuices. You are being controlled by Corporate America even as you are shouting against Big Government.

Take a break here, this is quite exhaustive.[/QUOTE]I agree with most of your post. And believe you've been taken in by the "con-men, talking on tv, making big bucks, saying things they do not believe in." You want to blame it on the "teabaggers" while absolving Obama and Democrats of responsibity. I don't know if you can read this without an account:

[url]http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323320404578216583921471560.html?KEYWORDS=senate[/url]+finance+committee+wind+fiscal+cliff.

But the Senate Finance Committee slipped favors for Nascar, distillers, StarKist Tuna, Hollywood, wind and biofuels companies into the year-end tax bill. Ten of ten Democrats voted for this pork, and 6 of 11 Republicans did so too. Obama signed the bill, and this crap wouldn't have gotten into it without his support. It's business as usual in Washington.

The "teabaggers" who you demonize are the only ones watching the till. They have been largely powerless. The "Power" is held by establishment politicians, like your esteemed President. Please note from his example that being white is not a prerequisite for wielding power or lying.

[QUOTE=Esten;431224]OK, we won't go after an American who joins Al-Qaida and isn't easily detained. We'll just let him continue his plan to attack us. Hundreds or thousands of Americans may die, but we'll feel good knowing we didn't violate the Bill of Rights.[/quote]Key words [b]'easily detained, may die'[/b] Really? OK then lets just kill the cocksuckers and to hell with due process. The ACLU called they want your membership card back.

[quote]Absolutely, 100%.[/quote]Sure ok, I believe you. (cough cough)

[quote]We may not always know. But if the names are public, the media will cover it, and we can have an open discussion and assessment. I believe such decisions are not made lightly, and are made in the interests of national security, which is a role of the federal government. This was the case with Al-awaki, and no one is crying over him. Of course, if you think the government is your enemy, you may not share this view. You can trade the risk of one innocent American being killed, for the risk of hundreds or thousands being killed. That's exactly what you'll be doing.[/QUOTE]The media, are you kidding me? We don't have a news media anymore we have propaganda pushers that report what they want to report. Will 'open discussion and assessment' bring dead people back?

When governments start killing and detaining their own people without due process they always have some type of justification. In the interests of national security, is an excuse the federal government has been using for a long time, it goes way back. They use it for things like (but not limited to) putting Indians on reservation, the interment of German, Italian, and Japanese, Americans during WWII, Guantanamo Bay 'indefinite detention' camp, invasion of Iraq (WMD's) , the Patriot act, TSA, and for killing Americans they claim are terrorist. The problem with you 'critical thinkers' is you only look at right now, you never seem to consider problems you may be creating down the road by setting a precedent. I'm certainly not concerned about Al-awaki per se, but the killing of many citizens starts with the killing of one citizen and that gives me cause for concern.

The government is not my enemy but I don't trust them and I don't applaud everything they do like some clapping pinniped with a beach ball on his nose. People in positions of power need to be monitored and held accountable for their actions.

I will agree with you that it's the role of the federal government to protect us, as a matter of fact it was intended to be their primary role. We are a Constitutional Republic and our leaders have taken an oath to preserve and protect that Constitution.

This is my last word on this subject at least for awhile as I will be preparing for and executing my escape from sex prison in the next few days, Sex Paradise here I come. Whoo–hoo

[QUOTE=Punter 127; 431261]Key words [b]'easily detained, may die'[/b] Really? OK then lets just kill the cocksuckers and to hell with due process. The ACLU called they want your membership card back.

Sure ok, I believe you. (cough cough)

The media, are you kidding me? We don't have a news media anymore we have propaganda pushers that report what they want to report. Will 'open discussion and assessment' bring dead people back?

When governments start killing and detaining their own people without due process they always have some type of justification. In the interests of national security, is an excuse the federal government has been using for a long time, it goes way back. They use it for things like (but not limited to) putting Indians on reservation, the interment of German, Italian, and Japanese, Americans during WWII, Guantanamo Bay 'indefinite detention' camp, invasion of Iraq (WMD's) , the Patriot act, TSA, and for killing Americans they claim are terrorist. The problem with you 'critical thinkers' is you only look at right now, you never seem to consider problems you may be creating down the road by setting a precedent. I'm certainly not concerned about Al-awaki per se, but the killing of many citizens starts with the killing of one citizen and that gives me cause for concern.

The government is not my enemy but I don't trust them and I don't applaud everything they do like some clapping pinniped with a beach ball on his nose. People in positions of power need to be monitored and held accountable for their actions.

I will agree with you that it's the role of the federal government to protect us, as a matter of fact it was intended to be their primary role. We are a Constitutional Republic and our leaders have taken an oath to preserve and protect that Constitution.

This is my last word on this subject at least for awhile as I will be preparing for and executing my escape from sex prison in the next few days, Sex Paradise here I come. Whoo–hoo[/QUOTE]Punter,

I have sent a message to Edgar Hoover to detain you for an indefinite period for you to simmer and contemplate your weiner and it's devastating effect on women. Sex Paradise was finally able to get it's equilibrium back only a few days ago. And we cannot afford to have you come in and whiplash the girls into a frenzy stage again. I had a girl on her knees and drilling her like roto-rooter, but all she did was repeat the mantra,"Punter, more, Punter, more, Punter", endlessly. I think they are going to name the new typhoon after you.

[QUOTE=Tiny12; 431260]I agree with most of your post. And believe you've been taken in by the "con-men, talking on tv, making big bucks, saying things they do not believe in." You want to blame it on the "teabaggers" while absolving Obama and Democrats of responsibity. I don't know if you can read this without an account:

[url]http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323320404578216583921471560.html?KEYWORDS=senate[/url]

+finance+committee+wind+fiscal+cliff.

But the Senate Finance Committee slipped favors for Nascar, distillers, StarKist Tuna, Hollywood, wind and biofuels companies into the year-end tax bill. Ten of ten Democrats voted for this pork, and 6 of 11 Republicans did so too. Obama signed the bill, and this crap wouldn't have gotten into it without his support. It's business as usual in Washington.

The "teabaggers" who you demonize are the only ones watching the till. They have been largely powerless. The "Power" is held by establishment politicians, like your esteemed President. Please note from his example that being white is not a prerequisite for wielding power or lying.[/QUOTE]First, just to be very clear, my referece to "white man" was not intended to make it a racial issue. I included "power" in brackets to refer to any powerful and established entity.

You may think me an ardent Obama supporter. For me, he is just the better alternative. On top of that, I think he has been unfairly villified right from the start. I believe in fair play, and giving a person a certain timeframe to hang himself. And this I did not see in the political arena or in AP. From the beginning, you would have thought that we had been invaded by Al Queda for all the vicious opposition that he was given. And the nitpicking, from the color of his toenails to his friends! As you just did about the Bill. Nothing is going to change overnight. There are favors to be paid in the old boys network. Pelosi & Reid are very powerful people. Like Texas hold-them poker, you can get killed with a pair of Aces. Don't be so naive! Ahh! Need I go on.

So, I salute your determination to curtain spending. But let's be pragmatic about this. Also as a country, we have more going for us than Greece, we have far more to room & resources to manouever and recover. More troublesome is our moral decay, for which there is zero chance of recovery.

Happy punting, Punter.

NRA Fundraising Email Steps Up Anti-Obama Rhetoric
[url]www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/17/nra-fundraising-email_n_2499853.html[/url]

So the NRA sent out a fundraising email a few days ago. You can read the text in the link above. It's clearly designed to alarm and anger their members. They must have had their top psychologists work on this one. I especially like this part:

[QUOTE]President Barack Obama recently pledged to raise $20 million to ram his gun ban agenda through Congress. And Obama's got plenty of rich, gun-hating friends in Hollywood, along with anti-gun billionaire Michael Bloomberg, who will shower him with the money he needs to strip you of your gun rights.[/QUOTE]

LMAO ! Also there's no evidence of Obama's $20 million pledge. Did they just make that up ?

The email also says the main goal of the "gun banners" is to "reduce your freedom to ashes". The email is just a pure play on emotion. There's no intelligent arguments about gun control measures, no genuine concern about addressing the huge amount of death and violence involving guns. Just an effort to rile up their members. Just like their tasteless television ad mentioning Obama's kids, which called him an "elitist hypocrite".

I sincerely hope that the "gun banners" are able to take this vile organization down a notch or ten.

Killed with guns since Sandy Hook.

That is the cost of fixing Bush's Bullshit.

Unpaid for Wars and his Banking Buddies.

Come On!

You can blame about 20% of it on Bush and the other 80% on Obama and the Democrats.There's a glimmer of hope coming from some Republican politicians,who favor policies promoting growth and reducing the budget deficit. Meanwhile Obama and and Democrats seem hell bent on fucking the private sector and bankrupting the country.

I respect you more than most liberals. You see the merits of a flat tax and you like Gary Johnson. And your positions make perfect sense from your perspective, that of someone over 65. Your party is more likely to preserve the quality of your retirement and health care. It's what's going to be left after you're gone that's frightening.

It's ironic, looking just at their own self interest, the youth should have voted for Romney/Ryan and senior citizens for Obama/Biden. But people are stupid.

Sarah.

[url]http://news.yahoo.com/why-fox-news-dropped-sarah-palin-164000188.html[/url]