American Politics during the Obama Presidency

[QUOTE=Punter127;436026]"October 17".

Americans deserve better!

[I]"The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the US Government cannot pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government's reckless fiscal policies. Increasing America's debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that, 'the buck stops here.' Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better."[/I]~ Senator Barack H. Obama, March 2006.[/QUOTE]This was before he personally was in a position to use the borrowed money to buy votes.

Let's discuss what is really important. Kris & Bruce Jenner have split! The Kardashian saga continues. It's really a shame that a fine Armenian name has to be dragged into the toxic wasteland that make up American entertainment today. Down the slippery slope. Just ask the Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, Spaniards for that trusted formula for self destruction.

Gee I wonder how this post got changed.
Read the green print.

http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

[QUOTE][QUOTE=Punter127;436026]"October 17".

Americans deserve better!

[I]"The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the US Government cannot pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government's reckless fiscal policies. Increasing America's debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that, 'the buck stops here.' Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better."[/I]~ Senator Barack H. Obama, March 2006.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Gandolf50;436027]Not that I am a Obama fan, but that kind of hits the nail on the head![/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Jackson;436028]This was before he personally was in a position to use the borrowed money to buy votes.[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]I agreed with Senator Obama's words in 2006 (though skeptical), and I still agree with those words today, but it seems President Obama has trouble living by the words of Senator Obama.

Now Obama says "Nothing has changed," and "I voted against a debt ceiling increase at the time because I had some concerns about what President (George W). Bush was doing."

Mr President many Republican and Independents along with some Democrats have concerns about what you are doing!

I know it came from Huff Po and it was done by NBC so the guys on the right might hate the source, but I'm right there on the sentiment. Get rid of all of them.
[url]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/11/government-shutdown-fire-congress_n_4085276.html[/url]

This one is way to the left of anybody on the board, yes including those that argue for the left, but I love the URL. Warning to the conservatives, don't click on it will send your P through the roof. I'm not saying I like the message, I dig the name. I couldn't believe it was available.

[url]http://fuckyoucongress.com/[/url]

I wonder if www.fuckyou[insertchiefexecutivename].com is available as well?

Obama holding 4 dueces, GOP holding aces & kings. Boehner knows he needs to fold, but Cruz, kamakazi style, wants to go all in. All principles, no common sense.

[STRIKE]Nero[/STRIKE] Obama [STRIKE]fiddles[/STRIKE] golfs while [STRIKE]Rome[/STRIKE] USA burns.

Obama is the leader, it's his job to bring the sides together.

[QUOTE=Punter127;436046][STRIKE]Nero[/STRIKE] Obama [STRIKE]fiddles[/STRIKE] golfs while [STRIKE]Rome[/STRIKE] USA burns.

Obama is the leader, it's his job to bring the sides together.[/QUOTE]He can't do it.

He does not have, and never has had, the executive management skills necessary to be the chief executive of the largest organization in the world.

His failure in this case to bring both sides together and forge a compromise is simply the latest example of his appalling lack of leadership skills.

Of course, none of that matters to the LIV (Low Information Voter) who always votes for the politican who promises them the most free money.

In the mean time, the USA burns.

Thanks,

Jax.

[QUOTE=BlackShirt;436045]Obama holding 4 dueces, GOP holding aces & kings. Boehner knows he needs to fold, but Cruz, kamakazi style, wants to go all in. All principles, no common sense.[/QUOTE]It is the compromising of principles over the last 100 years that has brought us to this point.

Don B

You can't forge a compromise with someone who refuses to compromise. How does that work? You schmooze, wine and dine them, and somehow magically they agree to compromise? The Republicans / Tea Party think compromise means capitulation. They seem incapable of recognizing that in a divided government, holding power in only 1 of 3 branches, compromise is necessary.

Since they didn't get their way in the election, Republicans waited until now to manufacture a crisis, to try and force their way. They are holding much of the federal government hostage. If it was a company, and some employees were blocking the provision of the company's goods and services to get their way, the CEO would have them fired, if not arrested.

The Republican party is now ripping itself apart. A fight between the pure ideologues and those with more common sense. Obama and Dems just need to stand by and watch the infighting worsen. Think it's bad now, just wait until we breach the debt limit. All of this could have been avoided by some simple common sense and compromise a long time ago. As it stands now, we'll just have to let the consequences of rigid ideology play out.

NBC/WSJ poll, October 7-9, 2013
Barack Obama............ 47% Positive, 41% Negative, Diff 6
Democratic Party........ 39% Positive, 40% Negative, Diff -1
Republican Party......... 24% Positive, 53% Negative, Diff -29
Tea Party Movement... 21% Positive, 47% Negative, Diff -26

[QUOTE=Jackson;436047]Of course, none of that matters to the LIV (Low Information Voter)[/QUOTE]

Uh, that would be me. I voted for Obama and even supported the Affordable Care Act. I did so without even reading the fucking thing.

And now, we're all fucked. Because of people like me. Yup, I'll just come right out and say it: because of uninformed people like me -- people who were either too high, lazy or busy to read this piece of shit fucking bill that we supported -- we're all straight fucked. Well, not all. Some of you clever bastards figured out a way to begin a new life outside of sex prison in the land of abundant pussy.

But assholes like me are now forced to live with the consequences of our actions.

Here's why: the Affordable Care Act is neither affordable nor caring. It's a massive pig-fuck bloated piece of legislation that is the worst type of forced-socialism I have ever read. Yup, I actually read it. And then I got the letter. The letter that said because of provisions mandated by the ACA, my insurance was going up 128%. That's not a typo, one hundred twenty eight fucking percent. Why? Because insurance carriers (in my case Kaiser) are no longer allowed to offer catastrophic care coverage (perfect for the traveling ***** monger like myself). Instead, in order to comply with the ACA, they had to cover me with all sorts of care I couldn't give a shit about.

Don't believe me? Try logging onto www.healthcare.gov and be prepared to be violated wrongly. For a middle-class working Joe like me, you'll be shocked at how expensive healthcare has just become. Or WILL become after January 1, 2014, when many of the provisions come into effect.

So, to those of you who voted for Romney, and on behalf of the assholes like myself who voted for Obama, I'd like to apologize. Every day I'm reading on www.sfgate.com and other so-called "liberal" publications about how many Obama supporters are reeling with sticker shock on what the ACA really means. If you're a lazy, unemployed bum, this bill is for you. If you're a working-class American, be prepare for the shock of your life. My guess is the individual mandate and the penalties for non-compliance will be overturned. It's going to happen when taxpayers start to receive "the letter" from their carriers.

As an aside, most on this board would be surprised at how conservative San Francisco really is. Just check out the comments section of and article on sfgate (the online version of San Francisco's largest daily, The San Francisco Chronicle).

[QUOTE=Esten;436049]You can't forge a compromise with someone who refuses to compromise.[/QUOTE]Right. And it's on Obama this time. The compromise would have been to eliminate the individual mandate, and that would have ended this God damn thing dead in it's tracks. But that fucking cocksucker dug in his heels and is refusing to budge.

I swear to christ, I'm going to learn German and move to Frankfurt and open a shawarma stand. How hard could it be? At least I'll be getting laid instead of getting fucked.

Chezz, the vast majority of Americans have employer-sponsored health insurance and will see little difference. I have good health insurance, I get to keep it and my premiums aren't going up significantly more than they usually do each year. This will be the situation for most Americans. So your claim "we're all fucked" is pure emotion.

You are in a small slice of Americans that may see a big % jump in premiums. If you were buying a dirt cheap catastrophic plan, of course your premiums may go up, for the expanded coverage you mentioned. You didn't realize ACA had minimum coverage levels? And BTW, what does that 128% work out to anyway, $100 more a month? Depending on your income you may be eligible for subsidies. If not, is it really that much a hardship. I could be wrong, but you might come to appreciate some of the things you'll now have covered. The fact that you think the mandate and penalities may be overturned (won't happen) suggest to me you are still not following this too closely.

The ACA is here to stay and it's going to be more popular than some people think. Calling it a program that just helps lazy bums is ridiculous and simply doesn't wash with the large numbers of Americans that support it, or who oppose repeal. Sorry that you are getting hit, but if you dive into it there are many good things about the law.

P.S. You can't trust message boards, because amongst the valid, authentic posts are also tons of propaganda posts from right wingers. Poll numbers are a better reflection of public opinion than any message board/comments section.

[QUOTE=Esten;436052]Chezz, the vast majority of Americans have employer-sponsored health insurance and will see little difference. I have good health insurance, I get to keep it and my premiums aren't going up significantly more than they usually do each year. This will be the situation for most Americans. So your claim "we're all fucked" is pure emotion.

You are in a small slice of Americans that may see a big % jump in premiums. If you were buying a dirt cheap catastrophic plan, of course your premiums may go up, for the expanded coverage you mentioned. You didn't realize ACA had minimum coverage levels? And BTW, what does that 128% work out to anyway, $100 more a month? Depending on your income you may be eligible for subsidies. If not, is it really that much a hardship. I could be wrong, but you might come to appreciate some of the things you'll now have covered. The fact that you think the mandate and penalities may be overturned (won't happen) suggest to me you are still not following this too closely.

The ACA is here to stay and it's going to be more popular than some people think. Calling it a program that just helps lazy bums is ridiculous and simply doesn't wash with the large numbers of Americans that support it, or who oppose repeal. Sorry that you are getting hit, but if you dive into it there are many good things about the law.

P.S. You can't trust message boards, because amongst the valid, authentic posts are also tons of propaganda posts from right wingers. Poll numbers are a better reflection of public opinion than any message board/comments section.[/QUOTE]

Posts by left wing progressives are valid, those by others are right wing propaganda.

Is Esten immoral, amoral, hopelessly naive or just plain stupid?

Don B.

No Don, there are valid posts from both sides. But one side is also REALLY stacked with misleading information that can only be characterized as propaganda. I have witnessed this on many message boards / comments sections on the internet.

[QUOTE=Esten;436052]Chezz, the vast majority of Americans have employer-sponsored health insurance and will see little difference. [/QUOTE]You cannot make that assertion until the data is in. I've read the bill. The entire bill. And even employer-subsidized healthcare plans are going to take a big hit...just wait.

[QUOTE=Esten;436052]I have good health insurance, I get to keep it and my premiums aren't going up significantly more than they usually do each year. This will be the situation for most Americans.[/QUOTE]What do you mean, "most Americans"? Again, you have no data to go off of until after January 1. Most working Americans whose employers are offering health insurance subsidies will see a much big year-over-year increase.

[QUOTE=Esten;436052]So your claim "we're all fucked" is pure emotion.[/QUOTE]Well, you're right about that. It is pure emotion, and yet we're still fucked. Most people get emotional whilst getting fucked!

[QUOTE=Esten;436052]You are in a small slice of Americans that may see a big % jump in premiums. If you were buying a dirt cheap catastrophic plan, of course your premiums may go up, for the expanded coverage you mentioned. You didn't realize ACA had minimum coverage levels? And BTW, what does that 128% work out to anyway, $100 more a month?[/QUOTE]Dude, read the bill then get back to me. My increase was waayyy more than $100, and I didn't have dirt cheap catastrophic coverage. I paid a hefty premium, thank you very much.

[QUOTE=Esten;436052]Depending on your income you may be eligible for subsidies.[/QUOTE]Never taken a handout, and not starting now. I can take care of myself.

[QUOTE=Esten;436052]If not, is it really that much a hardship. I could be wrong, but you might come to appreciate some of the things you'll now have covered.[/QUOTE]You said it -- you're wrong. And why can't I make that decision on what I want covered?

[QUOTE=Esten;436052]The fact that you think the mandate and penalities may be overturned (won't happen) suggest to me you are still not following this too closely.[/QUOTE]This quote suggests you don't know me, what the fuck I'm doing in my spare time and how I feel about how my tax dollars are being spent.

[QUOTE=Esten;436052]The ACA is here to stay[/QUOTE] Heh-heh...that's what you think.

[QUOTE=Esten;436052]Calling it a program that just helps lazy bums is ridiculous and simply doesn't wash with the large numbers of Americans that support it, or who oppose repeal. Sorry that you are getting hit, but if you dive into it there are many good things about the law. P.S. You can't trust message boards, because amongst the valid, authentic posts are also tons of propaganda posts from right wingers.[/QUOTE]It is indeed a program that primarily helps the poor; which includes a huge subset of lazy bums that now feed off the system while contributing nothing in return. And the only message boards I read are this one and the ISG, because I'm more interested in pussy than having long drawn-out conversations with strangers. At least on this board, people with common interests actually meet in real life and share some good times.

[QUOTE=Esten;436052]Poll numbers are a better reflection of public opinion than any message board/comments section.[/QUOTE]Because people getting polled haven't felt the cold, hard steel us the US Department of Health & Human Services ramming it up their ass to grab even more of their hard-earned cash.

Esten, I believe in paying taxes and am quite liberal in nature. But I also know when to call a spade a spade. Agreeing 100% with the party line isn't healthy. There has to be someone who steps out from the shadows and says "hey boss, you're going overboard here". And while there are absolutely some positive benefits of the ACA, forcing certain types of coverage and the individual mandate were an over-reach. These provisions are going to get smoked...just watch. There are more liberals like me than you think.

Before, it was someone else getting screwed, now it's you. And tomorrow, it's your mother-in-law. But lucky me.

I just used Kaiser Permanente in LA only a few weeks ago. Everything was the same for me, $5 co payment for all procedures under my employer subsidized plan. And will continue under Medicare & ACA. Smooth entry, very well lubricated. But I did read that premiums can range widely even in the same city, somewhat like car insurance. A friend of mine was already paying close to $1000 a month for single coverage before ACA. I will check with him about his new premiums, but he did not bring this issue up. No distress or outrage.

I don't claim to have read the bill, or understand all the implications. The law is not perfect, because one side totally rejected it and was not willing to discuss it. It was passed under the emotional rhetoric of socialism vs capitalism and all the political shit that goes with it. Whose fault is is it? Everyone's, you & me, and your mother-in-law.

[QUOTE=Chezz;436055]

Dude, read the bill then get back to me. My increase was waayyy more than $100, and I didn't have dirt cheap catastrophic coverage. I paid a hefty premium, thank you very much.
.[/QUOTE]Hey, count yourself lucky. My health insurance company is cancelling all policies in my state effective December 31,2013. And you're insured by Kaiser, who from what I've read offers high quality, low cost health care by USA standards.

Health care costs, especially the cost of Medicare and Medicaid, look like they're going to play a big part in bankrupting the country. My impression is that the Affordable Care Act will get us there that much faster, but I haven't read the legislation. Being one of the few that have actually read it, do you believe it will lower costs? Improve quality?

[QUOTE=Esten;436049]

NBC/WSJ poll, October 7-9, 2013
Barack Obama............ 47% Positive, 41% Negative, Diff 6
Democratic Party........ 39% Positive, 40% Negative, Diff -1
Republican Party......... 24% Positive, 53% Negative, Diff -29
Tea Party Movement... 21% Positive, 47% Negative, Diff -26[/QUOTE]Adolph Hitler had high approval ratings in 1930's Germany, as would have Lenin around 1918. Not that Obama is in the same league with either. However, as a believer in big government, big spending, big deficits, and high taxes, he's wrong.

I grudgingly respect Obama for actually believing in something, unlike some of his colleagues like Pelosi and Schumer who consistently sell out to the highest bidders. I however have much more respect for the Tea Party, for believing in something, for willingness to take unpopular positions, and for being right. Unfortunately, I fear they're currently on a suicide mission.

[QUOTE=BlackShirt;436056]Before, it was someone else getting screwed, now it's you. And tomorrow, it's your mother-in-law. But lucky me.

I just used Kaiser Permanente in LA only a few weeks ago. Everything was the same for me, $5 co payment for all procedures under my employer subsidized plan. And will continue under Medicare & ACA. Smooth entry, very well lubricated. But I did read that premiums can range widely even in the same city, somewhat like car insurance. A friend of mine was already paying close to $1000 a month for single coverage before ACA. I will check with him about his new premiums, but he did not bring this issue up. No distress or outrage.

I don't claim to have read the bill, or understand all the implications. The law is not perfect, because one side totally rejected it and was not willing to discuss it. It was passed under the emotional rhetoric of socialism vs capitalism and all the political shit that goes with it. Whose fault is is it? Everyone's, you & me, and your mother-in-law.[/QUOTE]Not socialism vs capitalism. We are well on the road to Fascism and the system we have not is not capitalism but a mixed economy.

Fault, not mine I have been fighting the March towards totalitarianism in this country longer then most of you have been alive.

Don B

[URL]http://www.drhurd.com/index.php/Daily-Dose-of-Reason/Politics-Government/Half-of-Americans-Now-Want-a-Third-Party.html[/URL]

What we need is a second party, I don't know how many years ago I said this.

Don B

[QUOTE=DonB;436059]Not socialism vs capitalism. We are well on the road to Fascism and the system we have not is not capitalism but a mixed economy.

Fault, not mine I have been fighting the March towards totalitarianism in this country longer then most of you have been alive.

Don B[/QUOTE]You wouldn't know fascism from a month end sale at Macy's. Talk about suffering from a persecuted mentality. Unless you are black, and live in Mississippi in the 50's, stop talking like you know what fascism is. And no, I am not mixing fascism with racism. They are join at the hips.

Talking out of your ass!

[QUOTE=BlackShirt;436063]You wouldn't know fascism from a month end sale at Macy's. Talk about suffering from a persecuted mentality. Unless you are black, and live in Mississippi in the 50's, stop talking like you know what fascism is. And no, I am not mixing fascism with racism. They are join at the hips.[/QUOTE]Just WTF qualifies you to speak about being black in Mississippi in the 50's? Are you black? Was you in Mississippi in the 50's? Hell have you ever even been to Mississippi? Do you know which political party was in control in Mississippi in the 50? (hint: Democrat) Do you really think blacks are the only people that have ever had to deal with fascism?

Here's a black guy that thinks "Obamacare is really the worst thing that has happened to this nation since slavery'.

[URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVvz7o6CDls[/URL]

[QUOTE=BlackShirt;436063]You wouldn't know fascism from a month end sale at Macy's. Talk about suffering from a persecuted mentality. Unless you are black, and live in Mississippi in the 50's, stop talking like you know what fascism is. And no, I am not mixing fascism with racism. They are join at the hips.[/QUOTE]

And you are just plain stupid.

Don B

[QUOTE=Punter127;436067]Talking out of your ass!

Just WTF qualifies you to speak about being black in Mississippi in the 50's? Are you black? Was you in Mississippi in the 50's? Hell have you ever even been to Mississippi? Do you know which political party was in control in Mississippi in the 50? (hint: Democrat) Do you really think blacks are the only people that have ever had to deal with fascism?

Here's a black guy that thinks "Obamacare is really the worst thing that has happened to this nation since slavery'.

[URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVvz7o6CDls[/URL][/QUOTE]I did drive through Mississippi in the 80's. Yes, I know all about Ben Carson. We belong to the same tiny Christian denomination. We probably agree on about 80% of the issues. But ObamaCare is not one of them. He and I are beneficiaries of the same health care system that is out of control in terms of cost. He was probably not overpaid but I sure was.

[QUOTE=DonB;436068]And you are just plain stupid.

Don B[/QUOTE]But looks can be deceiving.

[BLUE]Hey guys,

Please throttle this down a little.

Thanks,

Jax[/BLUE]

[QUOTE=BlackShirt;436063]You wouldn't know fascism from a month end sale at Macy's. Talk about suffering from a persecuted mentality. Unless you are black, and live in Mississippi in the 50's, stop talking like you know what fascism is. And no, I am not mixing fascism with racism. They are join at the hips.[/QUOTE]

OK, for the sake of the argument lets say I don't know what Fascism is. So how about defining it for me. While you are at it also define racism. For good measure toss in what Fascism, Socialism, Communism, Christianity, Islam and a few other isms have in common and while you are at it cite the origin of that.

Your answer is eagerly awaited.

Don B

[QUOTE=DonB;436091]OK, for the sake of the argument lets say I don't know what Fascism is. So how about defining it for me. While you are at it also define racism. For good measure toss in what Fascism, Socialism, Communism, Christianity, Islam and a few other isms have in common and while you are at it cite the origin of that.

Your answer is eagerly awaited.

Don B[/QUOTE]I made my point. You don't like it, too bad. You reacted, and now it's time to move on. I don't have to write a doctoral dissertation for your satisfaction. You believe in what you know, you don't need to prove anything to anybody on this board. Neither do I.

But perhaps, you would like tell us about your persecutions and sufferings under the so called perverted American liberties, and how your life has been restricted and shattered due the living under a growing fascist regime.

I was in the US recently. I know the government know everything about me. But so do the credit companies. So what! I have nothing to hide. I pay my taxes, I enjoyed my visit. Immigration was very friendly. Everything went well. The socialized medical coverage I have is the best in the world. I had peace of mind knowing that. Did not run into anybody who wanted to hurt or rob me. Must be lucky, but maybe it's where I choose to go to spent my time. And of course, somebody upstairs watching out for me.

Life is what you make of it. There you go, that's as conservative a value as you can get.

P.S. Will do, Jax

[QUOTE=BlackShirt;436092]I made my point. You don't like it, too bad. You reacted, and now it's time to move on. I don't have to write a doctoral dissertation for your satisfaction. You believe in what you know, you don't need to prove anything to anybody on this board. Neither do I.

But perhaps, you would like tell us about your persecutions and sufferings under the so called perverted American liberties, and how your life has been restricted and shattered due the living under a growing fascist regime.

I was in the US recently. I know the government know everything about me. But so do the credit companies. So what! I have nothing to hide. I pay my taxes, I enjoyed my visit. Immigration was very friendly. Everything went well. The socialized medical coverage I have is the best in the world. I had peace of mind knowing that. Did not run into anybody who wanted to hurt or rob me. Must be lucky, but maybe it's where I choose to go to spent my time. And of course, somebody upstairs watching out for me.

Life is what you make of it. There you go, that's as conservative a value as you can get.

P.S. Will do, Jax[/QUOTE]

I am really dumb, just what point did you make?

Don B

[QUOTE=DonB;436059]Not socialism vs capitalism. We are well on the road to Fascism and the system we have not is not capitalism but a mixed economy.

Fault, not mine I have been fighting the March towards totalitarianism in this country longer then most of you have been alive.

Don B[/QUOTE]Don, Would you apply this just to the economy? Or do you also believe the USA, like Mussolini's Italy and Hitler's Germany, is imperialistic, nationalistic and militaristic?

I do see that Obama, like the fascist dictators, believes businesses and people should serve the government, and not vice versa. Actually, reading about the Fascist Manifesto on Wikipedia, it sounds a little like the Democrat Party platform: "The Manifesto supported the creation of an eight-hour work day for all workers, a minimum wage, worker representation in industrial management, equal confidence in labour unions as in industrial executives and public servants, reorganization of the transportation sector, revision of the draft law on invalidity insurance, reduction of the retirement age from 65 to 55, a strong progressive tax on capital, confiscation of the property of religious institutions and abolishment of bishoprics, and revision of military contracts to allow the government to seize 85% of their profits."

I Told you About This Thread.

You will make more people hating you, than friends.

That is Not Very Good Business.

Politics and Sex Do Not Mix!

Or Religion.

P.S. Kill out The Cararas Lists and Medellin Lists, Also Maracaibo, VE
I am Working, you are Not.


[QUOTE=Jackson;436085][BLUE]Hey guys,

Please throttle this down a little.

Thanks,

Jax[/BLUE][/QUOTE]

When you look in the mirror, what do you see?

A healthy man, physically, mentally & spiritually? How many kinds of pills are you popping? Are you sleeping well? Do you have pain? If you do not have health, you have nothing, regardless of how much money you have.

Let's be honest, the American life style (being copied around the world) leads to many excesses that culminates in poor health, often, at an early age. By middle age, looking around, a great majority is taking some kind of drug. Drugs, of course, can prolong your life. But by then, you are a prisoner of the system, a system controlled by the pharmaceutical companies and the medical industry. Doctors are trained to give you drugs, it gives you instant relief and huge profits to the system. A great combination that is hard to escape. I heard that doctors do not have a longer life span than non-doctors despite their knowledge & training.

American life style is also a combination of fast food & packaged food. Convenient, tasty for both the busy & lazy. Brilliant business concepts, one that most of the population are entrapped, willingly of course. Large fries, anyone? Double double? The assembly line being prep for the shark infested health industry.

And lurking to strike at this goldmine is the financial industry. With costs spiraling every day, a lucrative alliance is being forged in every doctor, dentist, hearing aid center, pain clinics, etc, between the American health care & American finance. CareCredit, a subsidiary of GE says, "when the economy gets worse, our business gets better". APR of up to 30% and late fees, collection agencies prey on the weak & vulnerable. Another one way into another big trap.

Perhaps to be continued. I have a headache, I'll swallow some Advil, washed down with Pepsi.

Chezz, You sound more like an independent, or at most lean left. But no way are you a liberal, based on what you wrote. For example, liberals do not use standard conservative talking points about huge numbers of lazy people feeding off the system. No doubt there is indeed such a subgroup, but whether it's "huge", or representative, somehow never gets backed up by numbers. I've asked folks on this board before to support such claims and they never can. Like conservatives, liberals do not like leeches who contribute nothing. However, a liberal believes most of the unemployed and working poor are decent people, who work hard (or will) to make ends meet, and if possible, get ahead. Instead of focusing on lazy bums we focus on those who finally will be able to afford good health insurance, or even get it in the first place because before they were shut out by insurance companies. Here's one story. The conservative storyline that Dems give people free stuff to buy votes is 1000% bullshit.

Millions Previously Denied Insurance Coverage Because Of Health Problems Look To Online Marketplaces
[URL]http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/stories/2013/october/01/preexisting-condition-consumers-insurance-obamacare-marketplaces.aspx[/URL]

Interesting you state I don't have any data to draw conclusions, but you've gone ahead and drawn your own anyways. Show me where it says in the ACA that everyone will see a big premium increase, and I'll eat my words. I don't believe you read the entire bill. It's something like 2500 pages, even I didn't read the entire thing. But I know the main features, including that the whole thing essentially falls apart without the mandate. So your suggestion that this "provision" could just be removed tells me you still don't fully understand the law.

I suspect you will in fact take any subsidies you are eligible for. If you don't get it upfront, it will play out on your tax return as a tax credit. If you take advantage of standard or itemized deductions, if eligible why would you not also take advantage of the ACA tax credit to reduce your taxes.

You still have a choice of what level of coverage you want, but the minimum floor has been raised. Why can't you choose to have less, and pay less? A fair question. That is just how it's designed, setting a minimum standard. For it to work it probably needs to work across the board, otherwise a lot of people would choose to pay less, making it more affordable for them, but less affordable for those who want the features. It's a similar concept to auto insurance.

Ha Ha!

The whole thing is tooo funny.

Except for the people out of work.

What is the purpose of a debt ceiling if every time it is reached it is raised?

Sooner or later the creditors wll realize that they are loaning money in order to pay the interest on money already loaned, then there will actually be a debt ceiling.

Don B

[QUOTE=DonB;436111]What is the purpose of a debt ceiling if every time it is reached it is raised?[/QUOTE]Not exactly an answer to your question but helpful to get an idea of how it came to be and why it is always raised.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/history-lesson-why-did-congress-create-a-national-debt-limit/2013/01/13/21114db8-5db8-11e2-9940-6fc488f3fecd_blog.html

With the oncoming delays of SS payments, it looks like my lifestyle will be severely impacted. Can you guys help? Just a measly $10 from a 100 of you will be able to help me continue my poverty line existence and save me from the possibility of a 1 meal per day crisis. The good karma you will receive will ensure that you will have no erection problems in this life, as well as the next one in Pluto. And I promise to not insult anyone in the future.

May the God of a Thousand Erections be with you.

[QUOTE=DonB;436111]What is the purpose of a debt ceiling if every time it is reached it is raised?

Sooner or later the creditors wll realize that they are loaning money in order to pay the interest on money already loaned, then there will actually be a debt ceiling.

Don B[/QUOTE]I agree completely. Markets should set the debt ceiling rather than government. Somebody should make the motion to eliminate the debt ceiling. I strongly oppose default. Maintaining a strong credit rating should be a common goal of all elected.

The battle on what should be funded can continue.

[QUOTE=Esten;436103]If Chezz is a liberal, I'm Sarah Palin Chezz[/QUOTE]Nice to meet you, Sarah.

[QUOTE=Esten;436103]You sound more like an independent, or at most lean left.[/QUOTE]Exactly.

[QUOTE=Esten;436103]But no way are you a liberal, based on what you wrote[/QUOTE]What is it with you and labels? Why does everybody need to fit into some sort of box?

[QUOTE=Esten;436103]For example, liberals do not use standard conservative talking points[/QUOTE]So, my opinion has now been marginalized into simply a talking point? No liberal can have an opinion outside of the party line without being called a conservative? What kind of freedom is that? I couldn't care less about "standard conservative talking points".

[QUOTE=Esten;436103], a liberal believes most of the unemployed and working poor are decent people[/QUOTE]I also believe the working poor are decent people. My guess is that conservatives [I]also[/I] believe the working poor are decent people.

[QUOTE=Esten;436103]Instead of focusing on lazy bums we focus on those who finally will be able to afford good health insurance, or even get it in the first place because before they were shut out by insurance companies[/QUOTE]Not sure where you live, but here in California, nobody is denied medical care. Without being too geographically specific, free healthcare is already available to everyone.

[QUOTE=Esten;436103]Here's one story. The conservative storyline that Dems give people free stuff to buy votes is 1000% bullshit.[/QUOTE]Agree, but who [I]really[/I] believes that? And who gives a shit?

[QUOTE=Esten;436103]Show me where it says in the ACA that everyone will see a big premium increase, and I'll eat my words[/QUOTE]Where did I say everyone? That's the problem with toeing the party line, 100%. In your world, there's no room for independent thought. Based on anecdotal evidence, most working-class people will see a rate increase. And the FACT is, a citizen of the US will no longer have the choice of whether or not to purchase health insurance. It's just another tax, whether they like it or not.

[QUOTE=Esten;436103]I don't believe you read the entire bill. It's something like 2500 pages, even I didn't read the entire thing.[/QUOTE]Congratulations, you got me. I didn't read the entire 2500 pages. My guess is that neither did you, nor our representatives that voted for it.

[QUOTE=Esten;436103]But I know the main features, including that the whole thing essentially falls apart without the mandate. So your suggestion that this "provision" could just be removed tells me you still don't fully understand the law.[/QUOTE]And you enjoy jumping to conclusions. The fact of the matter is that not only is the individual mandate troubling, but so is the pre-existing condition (guaranteed issue) provision.

[QUOTE=Esten;436103]I suspect you will in fact take any subsidies you are eligible for. If you don't get it upfront, it will play out on your tax return as a tax credit. If you take advantage of standard or itemized deductions, if eligible why would you not also take advantage of the ACA tax credit to reduce your taxes.[/QUOTE]What kind of question is that? I follow the law. And whether or not I itemize or take the standard deduction come tax time is irrelevant. What [I]is[/I] relevant is whether or not I would live my life [I]gaming[/I] the system.

[QUOTE=Esten;436103]You still have a choice of what level of coverage you want, but the minimum floor has been raised. Why can't you choose to have less, and pay less? A fair question.[/QUOTE]No, it's a fucking great question, not simply a fair one. You can't simply side-step that question. It's the crux of the whole debate.

[QUOTE=Esten;436103]It's a similar concept to auto insurance.[/QUOTE]No, it's not like auto insurance. One has the choice of whether or not to purchase a car. This "insurance" is a must. You cannot opt out. Moreover, unlike car insurance, where if you're a bad driver you pay more, healthier people end up carrying a much higher burden. I already pay Medicare.- that's enough.