American Politics during the Obama Presidency

[QUOTE=Rock Harders] If the US finally put its foot down and ordered Israel to give the Palestinians a workable state or risk getting cut off, and pulled out of Iraq and Afghanistan, I would be willing to bet that alot of the fuel that fires the Muslim hate / distrust toward the US would be extinguished. [/QUOTE]I am a big fan of many of your posts Rock but you are in outer space on this one dude. It's not about US foriegn policy that makes these folks crazy buddy. It has absolutley nothing to do with this. THEY HATE DEMOCRACY! Thats the end of the story and the US is the poster child for an affluent democratic society.

You must have forgotten just a few years back when Al Queda published their world-wide hit list. It included just to name a few Canada, Australia, France, Germany, etc. Etc. Etc. Guesse that horrible Canadian foreign policy must have just sent them over the edge! IALOTFLMAO. It has never been about just american politics Rock! Ever! This shit has been going on for hundreds of years dude. It has always been about lifestyle and society values that differ from the "Muslim Way".

Suggest you do a bit of history review before you start talking about Iraq and Afganastan. This battle was taking place long before America even had a foreign policy. I think you are mixing your personal feelings about historical US policy decisions (which I agree have not always been great) with an issue that has been around long before the US began playing the role of world-wide policeman.

Happy Mongering All.

Toymann

[QUOTE=Rock Harders]Mongers,

Before this thread morphs completely into an anti-Muslim hate group,[/QUOTE]I'd be willing to bet that I have more Muslim friends (from Lebanon, Eqypt, Tanzania, UAE, Saudi, Qatar, NYC, etc) than most AP members. My post was not "hate" language or anything of the sort. It was a statement of fact. Facts I discuss / debate freely with my Muslim friends. Sometimes the facts are messy. While the percentage of Muslims committed to Islamic Revolution is relatively small, their numbers are large and they represent a real threat. How do you propose going forward?

[quote=] how about we examine this interesting list that WW posted here.[/QUOTE]Please do, that was the purpose for making the quote.

[quote=] The 1979 Tehran Embassy incident? The Iranians were more or less justified in this action as a result of US support for the Shah and his repressive and tortuous actions[/QUOTE]The "incident" to which you refer was an armed invasion of US sovereign territory, which is clearly an act of war (unless your president is a dickless pussy) If that was "more or less justified" than we would have been more or less justified in delivering an asymmetrical response freeing our sovereign territory and vanquishing our attacker (sort of the object of "justified" war)

[quote=] (remember the CIA ousted a somewhat democratic government in the 50's in favor of the Shah because the Shah was anti-communist)[/QUOTE]Pahlavi (the Shah) was also Pro-American, something we used to look for in our friends. He was the Emperor of Iran from 1941 until 1979 when he was deposed by the Islamic Revolution. In the early '50s, Mosaddaq (Prime Minister) was committed to nationalizing the Iranian oil industry (and with it US and UK interests in the form of the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company) and had in fact led Parliament to vote to nationalize the industry. Additionally, the US and UK were concerned that a Mosaddaq administration would be controlled by the communists. "Operation Ajax" was a CIA-executed effort to force Mosaddaq from office and prevent him being elected President. The first coup attempt failed and the Shah, briefly, went into exile. He returned in '53, when the second coup was successful. We helped the "lesser of two evils" achieve power. Mosaddaq was quite popular but he was no fan of human rights or democracy. Between '53 and '79 our embassy staff grew to about 1,000 personnel (that's a big embassy) Eleven months before the Embassy was taken over, it was attacked with rocks and bullets. In the wake of that attack, the staff was reduced to 60. The US and the Shah were steadfast in their opposition to the Islamic Revolution and Communism, which traveled hand in hand.

[quote=]The other incidents are almost all directly associated with the unconditional US support of Israel against the Palestinians.[/QUOTE]Since at least '79, Iran has unconditionally supported Russia, would that have justified the US in attacking Iran, prior to the fall of the Iron Curtain?

[quote=] Some of the latter incidents could also be associated with the US sanctions against Iraq in the 90's (which helped starve about 2 million children to death) [/QUOTE]Then Cuba should also be free to attack us. US sanctions didn't kill anyone in Iraq. If anyone starved, it was due to Saddam diverting humanitarian aid not any perceived lack of international aid, of which there was not shortage despite the US sanctions.

[quote]The Muslims have legitimate gripes in terms of their feelings toward US Foreign Policy.[/QUOTE]Add the Jews to the list as this Administration has thrown them out.

[quote]If the US finally put its foot down and ordered Israel to give the Palestinians a workable state or risk getting cut off,[/QUOTE]How is the US going to ensure that Israel won't be attacked if they drop their pants?

[quote] and pulled out of Iraq[/QUOTE]Why, is this in the best interest of US national security? But BHO says he has already brought 90K soldiers home from Iraq (didn't bother to mention that he was counting those rotated home and replaced with other soldiers)

[quote]and Afghanistan[/QUOTE]Why, is this in the best interest of US national security? I thought BHO said that this was the "good" war?

[quote] I would be willing to bet that alot of the fuel that fires the Muslim hate / distrust toward the US would be extinguished.[/QUOTE]I'll take that bet. 250 years of Vatican efforts toward this end returned bupkiss.

[quote]As I stated in an earlier post, I have no respect for the Muslim religion and I think those people live like animals in general, [/QUOTE]Err, me be confused. Me thought you no want Muslim hate group here.

[quote]but the fact is unless you are going to slaughter them all (not an option) the US needs to accept the fact that they can't change or control these nation / states and stop wasting its money and resources on these unwinnable wars.[/QUOTE]We need not accept anything that materially degrades our national security or undermines our sovereignty. We need to reestablish the understanding that if you take up arms against the USA, you will be dead. Find enough bad guys, dispatch them with extreme prejudice and the threat will decline. Contrary to liberal babble, this will make recruitment for terror more difficult.

We as a country need to grow a pair!

[quote] Neither Iraq nor Afghanistan is ever going to be a real, governable country. [/QUOTE]Conventional wisdom may be on your side. If we cut and run on both, the human toll on innocents will be enormous.

Barrack Obama seems to be a nice enough guy. Unfortuneately he is sadled with his wife Michele. Vacations in Spain, the Florida Panhandle and Nantucket, all in a 2 week period.

Ronald Reagon had Nancy, Bill Clinton had Hillary and Obama has Michele.

God help Obama, especially if he is forced to perform his husbandry duties with Michele.

[QUOTE=El Alamo]Barrack Obama seems to be a nice enough guy. Unfortuneately he is sadled with his wife Michele. Vacations in Spain, the Florida Panhandle and Nantucket, all in a 2 week period.

Ronald Reagon had Nancy, Bill Clinton had Hillary and Obama has Michele.

God help Obama, especially if he is forced to perform his husbandry duties with Michele.[/QUOTE]She's certainly "Not" doable for Me.

Exon

Yo Rock,

Right on man for telling like it is. I worked in the middle east for a year and heard incredible stories of how the Israelies mistreated and abused the Palestinians. Its still going on today! And the USA supports it and seems to think that Islam will bend to the yoke of "our democracy".

One of my best Jewish friends went to Israel for a year in 1981. Upon his return, when asked what he thought of the whole Palestinian / Israeli. Shiteree, he replied, "they deserve each other".

We've backed loser dictators before and paid the price dearly. Netanyahu is just another, using our big stick to the disadvantage of our country and Obbie seems to be in his pocket ala Clinton and the bush baby.

We reap what we sow.

I DO agree though, there should be no mosque within 5 miles of the 9/11 site.

Jackpot

Mongers,

It would be nice if the Wild Walleyes, Toyman's, Jackson's and similar Fox News Robots of the forum would actually step outside the upper-middle age American right wing box they dwell in and view world history and events objectively from an international perspective. If they did, they would see what the rest of the world sees: that the US often engages in short-sighted, counterproductive Foreign Policy that has come back to haunt it again and again. One of these such policies is the United States' unlimited support of Israel; the US backs a small country of several million in their heinous actions against essentially the will of the entire world (the UN General Assembly votes about 180-3 to condemn Israeli behavior) This is the single most important factor that generates Muslim hatred toward the US. Instead of forcing a solution to the Palestinian situation, the US does nothing (except block action against Israel) and spits in the face of 100 million Muslims in the Middle East. Why does the US unconditionally support Israel? They have no natural resources, produce nothing the US wants or needs (they trade in diamonds) and cause the US far more problems than their friendship is worth. The primary reason for this is that the some upper echelons of the US government and financial system (which are deeply intertwined) are controlled and influenced by Jews. It is in THEIR interests, but not those of the USA, to keep supporting Israel. The less important factor, but one sold to the Jesus Sheep who inhabit the South and Midwest of the USA, is that in order for the Christ to return, Israel must be alive and well in control of the "Holy Land".

WW, do a little light research and you will in fact see that two million Iraqi children DID in fact starve to death as a result of the US sanctions during the 90's. Yes, Saddam Hussein's regime manipulated the Oil for Food Program to bolster their personal wealth; the US knew about that, and the children starving to death, and decided the political gains from maintaining the sanctions outweighed two million children starving to death. WW, in your opinion, is keeping Saddam Hussein "corralled" worth two million children starving to death? The Muslim world also knew about this (what do you think Al-Jazeera was broadcasting every night? And were disgusted that the US (who claim to be such great humanitarians) would allow this to happen.

The US government should know by now that any sanctions they implement always crush the poorest and most helpless citizens of the "enemy" country they are trying to punish. The despots who control the regime always find a way to keep their bellies full and their Ferraris full of 100 Octane gasoline (see any current or past dictatorship the US has levied sanctions against)

Suerte,

Rock Harders

[QUOTE=Rock Harders]It would be nice if the Wild Walleyes, Toyman's, Jackson's and similar Fox News Robots of the forum would actually step outside the upper-middle age American right wing box they dwell in and view world history and events objectively from an international perspective. If they did, they would see what the rest of the world sees:support Israel? [/QUOTE]Your obsession with Israel is obvious Rock. What you have totally missed here is that we were discussing Muslim terrorism. Unless you live under a rock (LOL) this is a world issue that effects all democratic countries. The acts of muslim terrorism have been felt worldwide recently, as well as for hundreds of years. Not sure what your education level is Rock but from were I stand it appears obvious to me that high school must have been a stretch for you as your ignorance to the issues here are now apparent for everyone to see.

"Better you keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt".

For the record Rock, I was raised and educated in Canada and have a pretty good grasp on the non-american perspective. Stop mixing your obsession with Isreal into a discussion on muslim extremist world-wide terrorism. Just because you don't like my spin on the current president doesn't mean I am some Fox news clone. Stop being so shallow and attempt to expand your views outside of your limited world-wide perspective.

Happy Mongering All,

Toymann

Toyman,

You are 100% right. I grew up in a trailer park in Arkansas, my daddy was a failed NASCAR driver, and I failed out of vocational school where I was learning how to retread tires. I only speak English and even that is a stretch. Currently I subside on my $8 AR per hour job at a car wash in La Boca. I am only in Argentina because I am running from the Country Sheriff back in Arkansas for cooking up Crank.

Or, maybe the reality is I have a degree in International Relations, administer a multinational corporation, speak three languages, and have more relevant international travel and contacts than you ever will at less than half your age.

Yes, we are talking about Muslim hatred and terrorism toward the USA; it is impossible to have an intelligent debate about this without examining its primary source: the US government's uncompromising support of Israel's disgraceful behavior and treatment of the Palestinians. The secondary sources of this, of course, are the US government's support of despotic governments in the Middle East and the current US occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq. The US government will never be able to convince the Muslim world that they are not enemies while the Israel-Palestine situation remains unresolved and the US wages war and occupies two Muslim countries.

No, I am not anti-Semite. The Holocaust certainly happened, millions were slaughtered, and it was among the great human tragedies. I am not a fan of the Israeli government, which has refused to give the Palestinians an independent state and has treated them like chattel. What I want to see is the US government to stop fucking its own citizens over via its counterproductive foreign policy that results in a nearly permanent state of war that keeps the makers of bombs, bullets, and bodybags (and all war material) rolling in taxpayer dollars.

Suerte,

Rock Harders

[QUOTE=Rock Harders]Toyman-

Or, maybe the reality is I have a degree in International Relations, administer a multinational corporation, speak three languages, and have more relevant international travel and contacts than you ever will at less than half your age. [/QUOTE]It must be so cool to be so successful, educated and worldly at the tender age of 24 years. I am glad you have not let your limited education (international relations degree) or your limited life experiences (24 years) hinder your position on world affairs or acting as judge, jury and executioner when it comes to america's role in the muslim extremist position. You are truely enlightened at such a young age. Who ever said "experience is the great teacher" must have been an idiot such as myself.

I will close our discussion with only two questions for you.

First, is afganastan an american or NATO sanctioned action?

Second, did muslim terrorism exist before 1776?

No need to respond, as us old fools already know the answer to both. Please don't sell yourself short, as having lived 10 years in the southern US states both your presentation and current academic arguements would be very well recieved in arkansaw. You might want to take a visit there as I am guessing you would be treated like family. I will leave you with one of my favourite non-american quotes.

" If you are not a liberal in your twenties then you have NO heart. If you are STILL a liberal in your thirties you have No brain"

Monger On Dude. Toymann.

P. S. I only speak two languages fluently but my spanish is getting better every year. You don't want to compare passports or educational background with me brother. Not even for a skinny second, but I will forgive your ignorance as just the normal problems associated with youth and lack of life experiences.

P.P.S Those US 90's Iraq sanctions you speak of (that killed all those children!) were again Nato sanctions Rock. As you have been quoting NATO votes when it suits your agenda, I just thought I'd let a few facts get in the way of your emotional liberal arguement. Oops, forgive me as you were only a young child in the 90's. Don't let the details ever disuade your cause dude. It's all good!

Rock, I am guessing the truth is somewhere in between what you posted. But it definitely sounds like you are from the Fort Smith area of Arkansas. As far as international corporations, anyone can hire someone off of oDesk and claim to be an international corporation.

His support for the Mosque shows he is truly out of touch with mainstream America. I had no doubts that Obama supported the Mosque, but I did not think he was foolish enough to make the support public. I suspect he is trying to look Presidential in order to boost his sagging poll numbers. But what he has done is finish off Democrats in the fall. I still think the Senate is not winnable for the Reps, but Obama is trying his best to give it to the them. Now every Rep candidate can protest against the Mosque and use the issue to paint Dems as the extremist party. As Jackson or someone else stated, due to it proximity to the WTC site the Mosque is the height of insensitivity to most Americans.

Barring anything greatly positive for Dems in the next 3 months, they are now headed for massive losses this fall.

I have to admit I am struggling with the Mosque topic. My gut reaction is that this is a huge slap in the face and I dislike it greatly. That said, one of the things that makes America great, and is despised in the extreme Islamic community, is the incredible freedom we give people in this country. If we start selectively restricting those freedoms it's an example of hipocracy they can point to. There is nothing more frustrating then watching people who have disdain for personal freedoms use our own laws against us but then nobody said equality and freedom was easy. Personally, I think the most insulting thing we could do is to just ignore the whole thing.

Sysco

Concise and clear perspective brother. I feel exactly the same way on this issue. Sometimes you gotta take the good with the bad. Free speech and religious expression is truely at the heart of democracy. It appears you may not be from arkansaw.

Monger on dude,

Toymann

[QUOTE=Sysco234]I have to admit I am struggling with the Mosque topic. My gut reaction is that this is a huge slap in the face and I dislike it greatly. That said, one of the things that makes America great, and is despised in the extreme Islamic community, is the incredible freedom we give people in this country. If we start selectively restricting those freedoms it's an example of hipocracy they can point to. There is nothing more frustrating then watching people who have disdain for personal freedoms use our own laws against us but then nobody said equality and freedom was easy. Personally, I think the most insulting thing we could do is to just ignore the whole thing.

Sysco[/QUOTE]

Not being either a US or Canadian citizen but following the discussion with interest, Rock Harder appears to me to reduce the Israel argument down to 'what do they offer to the US?' The world decided on the establishment of the modern state of Israel, not the US. However without the support of the US it would have ceased to exist. Obviously Rock Harder's study of International Relations puts little emphasis on principles and the policies that naturally follow those principles and instead would only support the existence of countries that can offer material succour to the US.

How sad is that?

Argento

Mongers,

Nowhere have I ever made the argument that Israel should not exist. What I have repeatedly argued here is that Israel should be forced to give the Palestinians a workable state, and the Palestinians lack of a state and their poor treatment at the hands of the Israelis is the primary cause of Muslim hatred toward the US (for unconditionally supporting Israel's actions and non-actions)

Principles and US foreign policy? Surely you must be joking. The US has supported some of the most vile, murderous regimes the world has ever seen. The US doesn't not care how despotic a particular leader or regime is as long as his policies don't conflict with US economic interests. US foreign policy is driven almost entirely with the goal of maintaining and furthering the US economic empire (or what is left of it) The fact of the matter is that foreign policy the world over (not just the US) is entirely about pragmatism and not principles.

Suerte,

Rock Harders