American Politics during the Obama Presidency

I realize you were pointing your comments to EG. Just wanted to point out that I am for LEGAL immigration and 100% against illegal immigration for reasons of both economics and national security. In the debate, if you are anti-Illegal immigration, you are painted as a racist. Whatever happened to the concept of colorblind justice?

[QUOTE=Easy Go]1. It only looks at the cost side of immigration and ignores the economic value created by the immigrants and their descendants. The USA has not run out of opportunity and immigrants vs nationals is not a zero sum game.[/QUOTE]I agree that opportunity is not a zero sum game. Excellent point.

[quote=]2. Long-term projections about pretty much everything have always proven to be wrong because they have no way to include the societal shifts that happen over time. Population projections have been notoriously bad.[/QUOTE]Except in the case of global warming.

[quote=]Without immigration, our population is going to stagnate, grow old, and lose the economic base that pays for things like Social Security, Medicare, education, and the world's most powerful military.[/QUOTE]Too late. We do not have the population to support the baby boomers. SS and medicare are bankrupt.

[quote=] The policies we need to be discussing are ways to make sure that we continue to win the competition to get the most valuable immigrants and that they become "Americans" rather than people just passing through.[/QUOTE]Those policies are remove hindrances to individual liberty.

[quote=] IMHO, unilaterally reducing immigration and treating legal immigrants as second-class citizens are not good policies.[/QUOTE]Didn't watch the video but who is advocating the approach of reducing legal immigration? Reducing illegal immigration is a great idea. People entering this country by breaking our laws should not be treated as second class citizens. They should be treated as the criminals that they are.

[quote=]Illegal immigration is a somewhat different problem and has proven intractable to date. I'm not sure if there is a solution that wouldn't involve a level of intrusion into civil society that most of us would find un-American. Can you say, "Papers, please."? I can't without flashing on authoritarian governments in times and places that are as far from "of the people, by the people, and for the people" as you can get.[/QUOTE]They are breaking our laws and should be immediately deported, following a brief asylum hearing. As for illegals that are already here, there needs to be a slightly different approach but one that does not result in citizenship or the right to vote, unless they go home and return through the legal process.

By the way, the 14th Amendment, as it was intended, does not allow for "anchor babies" because the mothers that deliver them are not here legally. Therefore babies born in the US to illegals do not meet the standard set forth by the 14th Amendment.

Got this today and thought I would pass it on to the rest of the board. Taken in total it does sort of make you wonder a little.

Author Unknown:

[quote]If George W. Bush had doubled the national debt, which had taken more than two centuries to accumulate, in one year, would you have approved?

If George W. Bush had then proposed to double the debt again within 10 years, would you have approved?

If George W. Bush had criticized a state law that he admitted he never even read, would you think that he is just an ignorant hot head?

If George W. Bush joined the country of Mexico and sued a state in the United States to force that state to continue to allow illegal immigration, would you question his patriotism and wonder who's side he was on?

If George W. Bush had put 87,000 workers out of work by arbitrarily placing a moratorium on offshore oil drilling on companies that have one of the best safety records of any industry because one company had an accident, would you have agreed?

If George W. Bush had used a forged document as the basis of the moratorium that would render 87000 American workers unemployed would you support him?

If George W. Bush had been the first President to need a TelePrompTer installed to be able to get through a press conference, would you have laughed and said this is more proof of how inept he is on his own and is really controlled by smarter men behind the scenes?

If George W. Bush had spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to take Laura Bush to a play in NYC, would you have approved?

If George W. Bush had reduced your retirement plan's holdings of GM stock by 90% and given the unions a majority stake in GM, would you have approved?

If George W. Bush had made a joke at the expense of the Special Olympics, would you have approved?

If George W. Bush had given Gordon Brown a set of inexpensive and incorrectly formatted DVDs, when Gordon Brown had given him a thoughtful and historically significant gift, would you have approved?

If George W. Bush had given the Queen of England an iPod containing videos of his speeches, would you have thought this embarrassingly narcissistic and tacky?

If George W. Bush had bowed to the King of Saudi Arabia, would you have approved?

If George W. Bush had visited Austria and made reference to the nonexistent "Austrian language," would you have brushed it off as a minor slip?

If George W. Bush had stated that there were 57 states in the United States, would you have said that he is clueless.

If George W. Bush would have flown all the way to Denmark to make a five minute speech about how the Olympics would benefit him walking out his front door in Texas, would you have thought he was a self important, conceited, egotistical jerk.

If George W. Bush had been so Spanish illiterate as to refer to "Cinco de Cuatro" in front of the Mexican ambassador when it was the 5th of May (Cinco de Mayo) and continued to flub it when he tried again, would you have winced in embarrassment?

If George W. Bush had misspelled the word "advice" would you have hammered him for it for years like Dan Quayle and potatoes as proof of what a dunce he is?

If George W. Bush had burned 9,000 gallons of jet fuel to go plant a single tree on Earth Day, would you have concluded he's a hypocrite?

If George W. Bush's administration had okayed Air Force One flying low over millions of people followed by a jet fighter in downtown Manhattan causing widespread panic, would you have wondered whether they actually get what happened on 9-11?

If George W. Bush had failed to send relief aid to flood victims throughout the Midwest with more people killed or made homeless than in New Orleans, would you want it made into a major ongoing political issue with claims of racism and incompetence?

If George W. Bush had created the position of 32 Czars who report directly to him, bypassing the House and Senate on much of what is happening in America, would you have approved.

If George W. Bush had ordered the firing of the CEO of a major corporation, even though he had no constitutional authority to do so, would you have approved?

So, tell me again, what is it about Obama that makes him so brilliant and impressive? Can't think of anything? Don't worry. He's done all this in 15 months -- so you'll have two years and nine months to come up with an answer.

Every statement in this email is factual and directly attributable to Barrack Hussein Obama. Every bumble is a matter of record and completely verifiable.[/quote]

Great post

I laugh everytime people start screaming about illegal immigration. The buisness lobby has paid Congress to prevent a creation of the foreign guest worker program. Continued cheap labor force is beneficial to them, get it?

Mexico gets billions of dollars from their citizens in the USA, why should they stop the flow? And if it was you and me that was born on the other side, we would be washing dishes and picking tomatoes right now. Oh, maybe you, I would probably be drinking a Corona and napping under the shade of the giant cactus and waiting for your money order.

Just to be serious, can you see Americans washing dishes and picking tomatoes?

Come on.

Slate is running a series of stories on income inequality for those interested in the topic. Interesting so far although it's full of annoying facts.

[url]http://www.slate.com/id/2266025/entry/2266026/[/url]

[QUOTE=Black Shirt]Just to be serious, can you see Americans washing dishes and picking tomatoes?

Come on.[/QUOTE]Yes I seriously can see it, they did it years ago before the government started giving people more money to stay home than they could make working. Take the government handouts away and they'll pick tomato and wash dishes again. What makes Americans think they're to good to do these types of work?

[QUOTE=Easy Go]There are two major problems with the argument in the video.

1. It only looks at the cost side of immigration and ignores the economic value created by the immigrants and their descendants. The USA has not run out of opportunity and immigrants vs nationals is not a zero sum game.

2. Long-term projections about pretty much everything have always proven to be wrong because they have no way to include the societal shifts that happen over time. Population projections have been notoriously bad.

Without immigration, our population is going to stagnate, grow old, and lose the economic base that pays for things like Social Security, Medicare, education, and the world's most powerful military. The policies we need to be discussing are ways to make sure that we continue to win the competition to get the most valuable immigrants and that they become "Americans" rather than people just passing through. IMHO, unilaterally reducing immigration and treating legal immigrants as second-class citizens are not good policies.[/quote]I agree with much of this and if we stop illegal immigration we could and should increase legal immigration. More people that have skills and can contribute to the betterment of our society.

[QUOTE=Easy Go]Illegal immigration is a somewhat different problem and has proven intractable to date. I'm not sure if there is a solution that wouldn't involve a level of intrusion into civil society that most of us would find un-American. Can you say, "Papers, please."? I can't without flashing on authoritarian governments in times and places that are as far from "of the people, by the people, and for the people" as you can get.[/QUOTE]Illegal immigration is a problem both political parties have ignored, for different reasons but ignored none the less.

The best way to stop illegal immigration is to take the incentive away. Make the penalty for hiring an illegal immigrant so severe that employers wouldn't even think about hiring them, I'm talking jail time for repeat offenders. Social services, drivers license, and aiding of illegal immigrants in any way should be verboten by federal law.

Take the work and social services away and a large percentage of these people would go home.

Unfortunately the remaining illegals are the bad guys that aren't coming for the work, so we would still need to seal our borders.

Perhaps we should put the troops that are coming home (and about to join the ranks of the unemployed) on the border. Image American troops protecting American soil.

Your [I]"Papers, please"[/i] sentiment is not lost on me I feel it too. I feel it when randomly stopped at a sobriety check point. I feel it when entering the country and they ask for my passport and when the guy says "what do you do for a living sir?" or when they want to look at the photos on my camera or my computer.

I feel it when crossing the border from Mexico and they ask "how long were you in Mexico" and "what did you do in Mexico?"

I feel it most of all when I drive through the check point on Interstate 35, twenty nine miles north of Laredo, Texas, USA, all northbound traffic is stopped by the border patrol, they walk around your car with dogs and ask "are you an American citizen", and sometimes they will ask "where are you headed today sir?" Try giving any of these guys less than candid answers.

I see the Arizona law as an act of desperation and a cry for help. The federal government needs to get their asses in gear and seal the borders. Let those wanting to cross the border be the ones to feel the "intrusion", not Americans driving on I35 or the streets of Arizona.

I used to work for a company that had very generous overtime policies. Except for some lean years, we had OT all the time. But it would be the foreign born citizens that welcome the OT. The native born, would just walk out the door, citing fatigue, paying too much tax, need to party and a host of reasons not to stay. It did not really matter as their work production was always lower anyway. Plus, their attendance was a major problem.

Yeah, I think they will wash dishes and pick tomatos, but it will take a madatory draft for them to comply.

There are lots of worse things in the world than illegal immigration. It's not worth sacrificing our freedom of movement to immigration checkpoints nor is it worth spending billions upon billions to try and and make our borders into the Maginot Line. A reasonable effort makes sense but there's no practical way to plug a 5,000 mile land border and a 12,000 mile coastline. We've got 20,000 border agents and many miles of fence (that costs billions to maintain) on the Mexican border which has succeeded mostly in increasing the cost (both dollars and lives) of making a crossing. The increased cost and difficulty mostly seems to have resulted in "professionalizing" the border crossing business and turning it into an attractive side business for the drug cartels. So we spend billions on defending the border while the drug cartels make billions smuggling people and drugs across it.

Also, by making it so much harder to cross the border, we've destroyed the informal guest worker program we used to have where farm workers crossed illegally to work during the peak seasons and returned to their homes during the rest of the year. Now, once you are across, it's so hard to cross back and return that the sensible action is to bring your family and setup permanent residence.

Meanwhile, draconian efforts at immigration enforcement inside the US drives illegals farther underground where their fear of the police makes them easy targets for criminals and their children don't get the education that would make them into economically productive citizens when they reach adulthood.

Just like the war on drugs, the war on illegal immigration mostly seems to be making things worse while wasting our resources and enriching and strengthening criminal gangs.

More fences, more guards, and sticking more people (like employers) in prison isn't going to solve the problem.

[QUOTE=Easy Go]There are lots of worse things in the world than illegal immigration. It's not worth sacrificing our freedom of movement to immigration checkpoints nor is it worth spending billions upon billions to try and and make our borders into the Maginot Line. A reasonable effort makes sense but there's no practical way to plug a 5,000 mile land border and a 12,000 mile coastline. We've got 20,000 border agents and many miles of fence (that costs billions to maintain) on the Mexican border which has succeeded mostly in increasing the cost (both dollars and lives) of making a crossing. The increased cost and difficulty mostly seems to have resulted in "professionalizing" the border crossing business and turning it into an attractive side business for the drug cartels. So we spend billions on defending the border while the drug cartels make billions smuggling people and drugs across it.

Also, by making it so much harder to cross the border, we've destroyed the informal guest worker program we used to have where farm workers crossed illegally to work during the peak seasons and returned to their homes during the rest of the year. Now, once you are across, it's so hard to cross back and return that the sensible action is to bring your family and setup permanent residence.

Meanwhile, draconian efforts at immigration enforcement inside the US drives illegals farther underground where their fear of the police makes them easy targets for criminals and their children don't get the education that would make them into economically productive citizens when they reach adulthood.

Just like the war on drugs, the war on illegal immigration mostly seems to be making things worse while wasting our resources and enriching and strengthening criminal gangs.

More fences, more guards, and sticking more people (like employers) in prison isn't going to solve the problem.[/QUOTE]Now we part ways because I'm vehemently against open borders which is what you seem to be suggesting.

[QUOTE=Black Shirt]I used to work for a company that had very generous overtime policies. Except for some lean years, we had OT all the time. But it would be the foreign born citizens that welcome the OT. The native born, would just walk out the door, citing fatigue, paying too much tax, need to party and a host of reasons not to stay. It did not really matter as their work production was always lower anyway. Plus, their attendance was a major problem.

Yeah, I think they will wash dishes and pick tomatos, but it will take a madatory draft for them to comply.[/QUOTE]I've seen that attitude as well, but I think if we stop rewarding those that refuse to work attitudes would change.

Hunger is a pretty good motivator, perhaps even better than a draft. Lol

Yet sill no response to my last post. I guess you can't argue with facts.

Dubya -

The president took on tyranny by embracing torture. He fought a war for freedom by trampling human rights. He enriched the already rich, excused their excesses, and then bailed them out of trouble and handed us the bill.

He politicized everything, promoted incompetents, and -- whenever things got tight -- appealed to our basest instincts of fear, greed, ignorance and hate. And his election had all the legitimacy of Rutherford Hayes'.

Here's a list of the seven worst things Bush did during his time in the White House.

7. Bush politicized parts of the government that should be nonpartisan.

6. Bush squandered the budget surplus.

5. Bush comforted the comfortable and afflicted the afflicted.

4. Bush rewarded incompetence.

3. Bush lied us into war.

2. Bush has exposed himself to war crime charges.

1. Bush weakened our democracy.

[QUOTE=Miamipro]Yet sill no response to my last post. I guess you can't argue with facts.[/QUOTE]If you knew what a fact was, it would be easier to find one.

[quote=]Dubya -

The president took on tyranny by embracing torture. He fought a war for freedom by trampling human rights. [/QUOTE]Nice talking point. Please cite specific examples of Bush either condoning or ordering torture. Generally in war, the goal is to trample the human rights of your enemies armed forces (I. E. Deprive them of life - liberty and the pursuit of happiness are things you worry about off the battlefield)

[quote=]He enriched the already rich, excused their excesses, and then bailed them out of trouble and handed us the bill.[/QUOTE]I thought you were railing against Bush? Why the non sequitur about Obama?

[quote=]He politicized everything, promoted incompetents,[/QUOTE]Ever heard of any of these folks: Biden, Geithner, Chu, Jarrett, Killifer, Napolitano, Freeman?

Why don't you enumerate some examples?

[quote=]and -- whenever things got tight -- appealed to our basest instincts of fear, greed, ignorance and hate.[/QUOTE]Why don't you enumerate some examples?

[quote=]And his election had all the legitimacy of Rutherford Hayes'.[/QUOTE]Other than swallowing the left wing talking points, do you have some facts upon which you base this opinion (to which you are certainly entitled)

[quote=]Here's a list of the seven worst things Bush did during his time in the White House.

7. Bush politicized parts of the government that should be nonpartisan.[/QUOTE]Why don't you enumerate some examples?

[quote=]6. Bush squandered the budget surplus.[/QUOTE]Congress spent the money. However, Bush should be held accountable for going along with them.

[quote=]5. Bush comforted the comfortable and afflicted the afflicted.[/QUOTE]Like all those people in Africa with Aids? Why are they comfortable? GWB, that's why.

Why don't you enumerate some examples?

[quote=]4. Bush rewarded incompetence. [/QUOTE]Why don't you enumerate some examples?

[quote=]3. Bush lied us into war.[/QUOTE]Why don't you enumerate some facts related to his deliberate acts?

[quote=]2. Bush has exposed himself to war crime charges.[/QUOTE]Considering those making such claims, I'll side with W.

[quote=]1. Bush weakened our democracy.[/QUOTE]How?

Miamipro, as I can see you are a card carrying, Bush bashing, liberal, I doubt anything I say will make a difference, falling on deaf ears to be sure.

You can't fight terrorism with polite inquirers and taking "no" for an answer. Political correctness will be the death of us all since the terrorist constantly use it against us. We didn't fight "fair" in WW I, WW II, Korea or any other war. The guy who fights "fair" is the one who has his "fairness" turned against him and ends up being defeated. By the way – did you serve in any conflicts or just taking the cheap shots from the peanut gallery?

Bush politicized everything? Give me a break; Obama has done more to politicize everything under the sun to serve his "higher calling" than anyone I can recall. What would you call moving the Census directly under executive control, firing a company CEO with no authority, the BP oil spill, healthcare the list goes on and on.

Bush was incompetent and hired incompetents – right and Obama can't find a staff person who can do his taxes right or does not owe the IRS money on past taxes, while paying off unions from day one. His latest payoff to the teachers union was accomplished by taking funds from the food stamp program. Wow, what compassion. Literally take the food out of people's mouths to give money to the teacher's unions.

If Bush has exposed himself to "war crimes" then Obama is exposed to the same extent as Bush as he has continued almost every Bush policy he railed against during his campaign and even increased the operational tempo of some.

Bush squandered a budget surplus, first the CONGRESS controls the purse strings and perhaps you let the 9/11 attack slip by you. By the way, the Democrats have controlled Congress for the last 4 years. I will give you one point, both Democrats and Republicans squandered the hard fought reductions in welfare that were gained when the Republicans controlled Congress and forced Clinton to the middle.

Bush weakened our democracy, right. You have to have a country first to have a democracy and you don't do that by placating your enemy and surrendering your advantages. Perhaps you forgot that bastion of Democracy, Franklin D. Roosevelt, suspend habeas corpus, interned populations as threats, investigated individuals with abandon, and permitted all sorts of "wrong doing" in the name of victory during WW II.

Bush rewarded incompetence, Obama embodies the very essence of incompetence from Stimulus, to ObamaCare, to BP, to appointments, to payoffs, to appropriation of private companies – I would go on but I have to do some work today and I am sure you get the idea. He can plan vacations for himself and his wife with no problem, I will give him that.

Let the voice of the people on Nov. 2nd settle this inane argument Miamipro, but of course you believe the unwashed masses don't know what is good for them and need to be led by the Liberal Intellectual Elite for their own good. Talk to me about Democracy after the elections my friend.

[QUOTE=Doppelganger]Bush rewarded incompetence, Obama embodies the very essence of incompetence from Stimulus, to ObamaCare, to BP, to appointments, to payoffs, to appropriation of private companies – I would go on but I have to do some work today and I am sure you get the idea. He can plan vacations for himself and his wife with no problem, I will give him that[/QUOTE]"No matter what meeting Obama is in, he is the least knowledgeable and least experienced person in the room."

This is absolutely true.

[QUOTE=Easy Go]A reasonable effort makes sense[/quote]We won't know if making a "reasonable effort" will work until we first try it.

[QUOTE=Easy Go]Also, by making it so much harder to cross the border, we've destroyed the informal guest worker program we used to have where farm workers crossed illegally to work during the peak seasons and returned to their homes during the rest of the year.[/quote]Sounds like a good argument for an effective, enforceable, Guest Worker program.[QUOTE=Easy Go]Meanwhile, draconian efforts at immigration enforcement inside the US drives illegals farther underground where their fear of the police makes them easy targets for criminals and their children don't get the education that would make them into economically productive citizens when they reach adulthood.[/quote]Their solution is simple: Don't commit a criminal act by illegally sneaking into the country in the first place.

Easy Go, just come out and admit it: You're salivating at the prospect of 12 million new, loyal Democrat voters, aren't you? We all know the history here. When Ronald Reagan gave amnesty to 3 million illegal immigrants in 1986, the state of California permanently tilted from red to blue, and now you're thinking [I]"If we could just do the same thing in New York, Florida and Illinois, then we'd never lose a Presidential election again".[/i]

It's truly disappointing how Democrats would so willing weaken the country just to keep themselves in power, but then the last two years under Obama / Reid / Pelosi has been a non-stop demonstration of that philosophy.

Thanks,

Jackson