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[QUOTE=Goblin]Does anybody really believe that the people of Argentina are too inept to run a water utility? [/QUOTE]Possibly. Ive been told that early last century, the British built, ran and maintained the railroads here. But mid century, the Argentine govt took control of the railroads. They kept collecting fees, but instead of using them for maintenance, they lined their pockets and let the RR system go to hell. Sounds believable.
I don't think Menem has the patent for plundering.
Moore-
Menem continues to be married to his Chilean beauty queen wife. She is about 40, he is in his late 70's and they have a 2 or 3 year old son together.
YPF is a great example of the exact sort of state asset that should not have been sold off. Don't you think that the Argentine government and people would benefit from the $60 USD + oil prices right now if they still owned YPF? I am not a "communist", but I think that certain countries are not capable of succeeding with a US-style market economy, and require certain socialist elements in order to be successful. In order for a US style market economy to function properly, socioeconomic mobility must be available to a certain degree, and in most parts of Latin America it is unavailable and thus economic problems abound. In the US, the reality of the situation is that ANYBODY really can get an education and make an above average living- it is easier for some than others, but the opportunity does exist, and therefore the US mixed market economy functions as it does.
Suerte,
Dirk Diggler
The AR govt doesnt seem interested in export revenues from beef, why would it act differently if it had oil to export?
The population is well educated and education is more available in AR than in USA - its free, right?
You can talk about socioeconomic issues, but apparently there is no excuse for Argentina's not being a success. A difficult problem to fix.
My point about Menems wife is that you musn't forget "former". I know who she is and beauty queen would not be a description I'd use.
Moore-
I was under the impression that Menem was still with the "beauty queen". She was "Miss Chile" probably 20 years ago, and she still looks good from the pictures I have seen.
Anyway, you are absolutely right that Argentina has no excuse to why their country is in the condition it is in. They have all the natural resources in the world, no overpopulation issues, educated population, a good healthcare system, nice weather, hot women, kind people, good genetics, etc. In 1900, Canada, Australia, the United States, and Argentina were all in similar positions- yet only Argentina has not flourished more or less consistantly. My theory on this is that the Spanish colonial legacy is what doomed the Argentine state, and Latin America in general. The British colonial legacy left precedents for human rights, law and order, market economics, and civilian governments. Notice neither Australia, Canada, or the United States has ever had anything but a market economy and a civilian government, and civil rights for those considered citizens (slaves not considered citizens until 13th Ammendment in US, considered property, as per Dred Scott decision, also in Australia aborigines not considered citizens originally) The Spanish (and italian) legacy of corruption, not payment of taxes, and military governments has led to the Latin American condition, IMO.
This ties into my general statement on Kirchner and Menem, Kirchner is acting with good intentions within the framework of the fucked up system he is responsible for steering, Menem did not, he just tried to make him and his supporters wealthy at the expense of the Argentine people. Obviously in the long term curbing beef exports is an awful policy any way you slice it, I guarentee that the ban does not last anywhere near the six months that Felisa Miceli announced. The government is attempting to play hardball with the beef producers in order to halt price gouging.
Suerte,
Dirk Diggler
[QUOTE=Dirk Diggler]
I was under the impression that Menem was still with the "beauty queen". She was "Miss Chile" probably 20 years ago, and she still looks good from the pictures I have seen. [/QUOTE]Let's give credit where credit is due. Mrs. Menem is Cecilia Bolocco, [b]Miss Universe[/b] of 1987! The guy is sleeping with the woman who won the title for being the hottest of the hotties on the fricking planet! And in 2001, at the ripe old age of 71, he married said hottie and has subsequently impregnanted her.
[url]http://i.esmas.com/image/0/000/004/524/bolocco1NT_.jpg[/url]
Not bad for a short, swarthy son of Syrian immigrants. :D
Look how he has to stand on his tippie-toes to kiss her on the cheek:
[url]http://external.cache.el-mundo.net/elmundo/fotos_gente/2005/07/01/1120219777_extras_fotos_gente_0.jpg[/url]
[QUOTE=Moore]
You can talk about socioeconomic issues, but apparently there is no excuse for Argentina's not being a success. A difficult problem to fix.[/QUOTE]It's not an excuse, it's a reason. And it's systemic. Corruption, socialism, and disrespect for the concept of private property is the witches' brew which keeps Argentina poor and backward, despite having all the ingredients necessary for economic success.
[QUOTE=Andres]
"Word"? "Word" from whom?
I wouldn't discard that some "Kirchner's cronies" get the business (after all, everything is possible) but at least I would wait for verifable info, not getting played by "words" from lobbysts, and I would study the subject thorougly.[/QUOTE]"Word" as reported by the Associated Press, referring to Argentine internal discussions:
[quote]There has been heavy speculation in Argentina that the government has been searching for a buyer allied with the center-left government of Kirchner.[/QUOTE][url]http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/fn/3738189.html[/url]
[quote=Andres]LOL. You seem more worried than Argentineans.[/QUOTE]You're right. True deadbeats don't worry about paying back their debts.
[quote=Andres]One day, you will learn that socialist doesn't mean "everything that doesn't align to my social-economic principles".[/QUOTE]Just the opposite. I have a vested interest in seeing Argentina to continue to be backward, poor, and socialist. If the country ever got its act together I would lose my favorite playground, where even a middle-class guy like me can pretend to be a rich guy like Carlos Menem.
It may be an oversimplification, but the read I get on Menem is simply that he parlayed all the neo-liberal economic stuff into a series of sell-offs and loans that were used both to line his and his friends' pockets as well as to keep funding the house of cards that finally fell when no one would give them any more money. Then he skipped town and now, of course, is back as a Senator. My Argentine friends refuse to use his name -- they just call him "him." I think a big part of the problem, as in the US in times past, is that no one is tempted personally until the temptation becomes too great to resist. Menem co-opted just about everyone who could have done him harm, and in doing so, wrecked the country -- for about the zillionth time since 1824. But I still love it.
Fred88/ aka Peter in Martinez
[QUOTE=Papa Benito]Kirschner behind this?[/QUOTE]Seizing foreigners' assets? It could never happen in Argentina! [snicker]
[QUOTE=Hunt99]"Word" as reported by the Associated Press, referring to Argentine internal discussions[/QUOTE]That "word" worths very, very little. The article in the URL says "There has been heavy speculation in Argentina that the government has been searching for a buyer allied with the center-left government of Kirchner."
"Heavy speculation". No data that you can verify, nothing, just "speculation", specially for such a HUGE operation that may leave very few potential buyers on the game.
Resourcing to speculation and rumors is a very old trick from the press.
[QUOTE=Hunt99]You're right. True deadbeats don't worry about paying back their debts.[/QUOTE]What debts are you talking about?
[QUOTE=Hunt99]Just the opposite. I have a vested interest in seeing Argentina to continue to be backward, poor, and socialist.[/ Hunt99]
You continue calling socialist anything that doesn't match your criteria of how things should be managed. Whatever.
[QUOTE=Hunt99]If the country ever got its act together I would lose my favorite playground, where even a middle-class guy like me can pretend to be a rich guy like Carlos Menem.[/QUOTE]However, you don't seem very happy when refering to this issue of seizing the water and sewage company, which makes your above claim hard to believe.
Andres
[QUOTE=Moore]"State assets", what are you a communist? Several of those "state" enterprises like YPF and the telephone co were turned into efficient and very profitable businesses once privatized.[/QUOTE]No wonder. The calling token was rised sevenfold after being privatized by MJ Alsogaray, and the 33% compensation fund to the elderly, eliminated.
[QUOTE=Moore]Previously they were bureaucratic entities that had 10X more employees than necessary, required bribes, and did nothing but lose shitloads of money. A form of welfare.[/QUOTE]Exactly, and that scheme continued by artificialy inflating bills and blocking claims to the National Commission of Telecommunication through political contributions. That's a perfect example of how complex are socio-economic systems, which cannot be easily transplated from one country to another.
[QUOTE=Moore]Menem stole a shitload of money - he wins, he is a superstar, he should be awarded a medal. A master of theives that robbed robbers. Welcome to the jungle.[/QUOTE]If you were a victim of the corralito, you wouldn't think so.
Andres
[QUOTE=Moore]The population is well educated and education is more available in AR than in USA - its free, right?
You can talk about socioeconomic issues, but apparently there is no excuse for Argentina's not being a success. A difficult problem to fix.[/QUOTE]Academic education isn't enough to build a "successful" society.
If you studied Argentine history, you will find several reasons for Argentina being what it is.
Andres
Just reading a few comments and it is good to see everyone is on the subject. Consider what the problems were when Menem took over. Faced with hiper inflation, a military looking to take over, drug loads in the north and the existing congress with thier hands in everyones pocket. A police force full of vice lords, a SIDE that was trained my the Nazi and what more. Yes, in order to put it together he had to bribe, cut deals, allow so crazy stuff, but the counrty for tens years grew, had no inflation, jobs, high standard of living, and boy did it get development. New hotels, new factories, new farming, etc Yea, like the usa, he borrowed too long and too much and the world wide recession of 2001 caught him of target. Just as the usa dot com etc nearly killed us. So until your there trying to manage a bunch of crooks into allowing the country to grow cut some slack and just do not lesson to all the press looking for ab ad guy. Boy did he like women. Suggest you all read Peron and get some pervious insight into this country.