Corruption in Argentina

[QUOTE=Doggboy]DH,

I would hope we don't underestimate the number of scoundrels in the US. The amount of fraud, corruption and general malfeasance in the US is nothing to sneeze at. It is much more behind the scenes, if you will, in the US, but, at least in some areas, pervasive. The amount of corporate fraud / corruption has been close to out of control for quite some time, and one need go no further than to research the staggering number of companies who have worked a deal to avoid prosecution, not to mention those who were prosecuted and found gulity, and not to mention those who have not been charged, but continue with their nefarious ways. The healthcare system in the US is a veritable cesspool of fraud and corruption, from the public system to much of the private. The cozy relationship between any number of corporations and the government, and the favors doled out as a result, well, let us take a guess as to those numbers.:)

I'll stop there, but the list of guilty parties would be quite a list indeed and covering a wide area. Much deference to "doing the right thing" has been maimed, if not taken out back and shot over the past 25 years. My take is that unlike Argentina, and many other countries in south america, and elsewhere, the legal and ethical transgressions in the states tend to be hidden behind a veil of supposed honesty, suits and crisp haircuts. Thieves and slimeballs regardless. My 2 cents.[/QUOTE]And you don't obviously think that what you are prepared to say of the USA isn't going on here at a greater rate as well as the constant grafting at the personal level. I don't agree with your assertions and would like the source for your research. Having run businesses in the States and here, the degree of corruption, dishonesty and general lack of business ethics in Argentina is as bad as Indonesia, and that is as high (or could it be as low) as you can get.

And I have personal experience to support that assertion. My guess is that you have little direct business experience and have come to your opinion based on selective reading. Doing business in the US is a breeze. Here it is a constant battle to avoid being shaken down, robbed and mugged. Business here is something fitted around survival.

Argento

[QUOTE=Argento]And you don't obviously think that what you are prepared to say of the USA isn't going on here at a greater rate as well as the constant grafting at the personal level. I don't agree with your assertions and would like the source for your research. Having run businesses in the States and here, the degree of corruption, dishonesty and general lack of business ethics in Argentina is as bad as Indonesia, and that is as high (or could it be as low) as you can get.

And I have personal experience to support that assertion. My guess is that you have little direct business experience and have come to your opinion based on selective reading. Doing business in the US is a breeze. Here it is a constant battle to avoid being shaken down, robbed and mugged. Business here is something fitted around survival.

Argento[/QUOTE]Argento,

I think everybody is aware of the troubles you have experienced in running your business here. I certainly have no reason to doubt that. Also, I wouldn't get into some sort of "research based" debate on the amount / percentage of scoundrels either here, in the US, or anywhere else. IMHO there are enough of them to go around regardless of where you live, and they seem to be proliferating, again, no matter where you live. My point, that I may have poorly articulated, is that folks get gouged and taken advantage of in the USA pretty regularly, and that it has become more than a cottage industry. It is corporate orchestrated and, I believe, increasingly endemic to the society. It is much more subtle than what you will find in Argentina, as well as other latin american countries. Those are my opinions based not on a scintilla of research.

I would add that I certainly didn't intend to derail this thread from the subject of racism in Argentina. Suerte.

[QUOTE=Argento]Having run businesses in the States and here, the degree of corruption, dishonesty and general lack of business ethics in Argentina is as bad as Indonesia, and that is as high (or could it be as low) as you can get. (Doing business in the US is a breeze. Here it is a constant battle to avoid being shaken down, robbed and mugged. Business here is something fitted around survival.[/QUOTE]I've never said that Argentina is the Elysian Fields.

Truly one of our big problems is Justice. To the same amount of delinquents, let's suppose ten delinquents found guilty, in U. S. A. Very probably the ten, or at least 9 or 8 goes to jail. Here, 4 or 5. Who will possible be at liberty before a couple of months.

That I must agree.

But scoundrels are here as in everywhere.

Let's remeber, only, one of the last big scandals involucrating people of the government (of Menem) and the I. B. M. Company. The bribe was received by this functionaries, but was PAID by the I. B. M. Company. Concerning a bribe, is so guilty the one who received as the one who paid it. The question you may ask is: why the one who must paid, pays? Can it be that, even paying a bribe, the benefits are so big for the foreign company that they accepted it?

Then look at what I've just said about justice in this country, and you may get an answer.

[QUOTE=Doggboy]I would hope we don't underestimate the number of scoundrels in the US. The amount of fraud, corruption and general malfeasance in the US is nothing to sneeze at. It is much more behind the scenes, if you will, in the US, but, at least in some areas, pervasive. The amount of corporate fraud / corruption has been close to out of control for quite some time, and one need go no further than to research the staggering number of companies who have worked a deal to avoid prosecution, not to mention those who were prosecuted and found gulity, and not to mention those who have not been charged, but continue with their nefarious ways. The healthcare system in the US is a veritable cesspool of fraud and corruption, from the public system to much of the private. The cozy relationship between any number of corporations and the government, and the favors doled out as a result, well, let us take a guess as to those numbers.:)

I'll stop there, but the list of guilty parties would be quite a list indeed and covering a wide area. Much deference to "doing the right thing" has been maimed, if not taken out back and shot over the past 25 years. My take is that unlike Argentina, and many other countries in south america, and elsewhere, the legal and ethical transgressions in the states tend to be hidden behind a veil of supposed honesty, suits and crisp haircuts. Thieves and slimeballs regardless. My 2 cents.[/QUOTE]You're right, Doggboy.

That's perhaps why The Godfather was written about an italo-american gangster, and not a porteño.

[QUOTE=Argento]'Do you think the USA would have invaded Iraq if it had 20% of the world's broccoli?' [/QUOTE]What about controlling 20% of the world's pussy?

[QUOTE=Argento]Now it is being discussed, other words spring to the tongue.

Inconsiderate.

Hypocrite.

Insincere.

Opportunist.

Guile.

Rapacious.

Mendacious.

Sure they are polite and effuse friendship and helpfulness on meeting. Kissy kissy and gladhanders all. Nothing too much trouble. In the real, occidental world, panhandler is the word that best fits. But they all play the game and they all know the rules. Us gringos assume the same rules as in the occident apply. It is a big mistake because they don't. As someone once said; 'Do you think the USA would have invaded Iraq if it had 20% of the world's broccoli?' I say, 'Do you think that the Argentines who you call your friends, would be hanging around if you didn't have dough?' For those challenged by the questions, the answer is no in both instances. Sure there are a few Argentines I call friends and who have been put to the test. But there are a darn side more who failed and went for the dough, some subtley, but most quickly and crudely. Of course these people exist everywhere, it's just that most of them gravitated to Buenos Aires. The same is not for the true country people, of all classes. They in general are great value and genuinely allow you to share each other's lives.

Argento[/QUOTE]Well, it can be said from your words, you had a very bad experience with argentines here.

I'm very sorry, and I wouldn't question you about that.

But you can't draw, from a single experience, a general law.

There's a lot of testimonies, in this blog and everywhere, of foreigners having a hell of a good time in Argentina. Not only tourists. Even people who had choose this country to came to live in, marry a local girl and grow up his family.

But you seems to prefer to keep on mourning about all our faults, and how we are not what you think we should be.

It doesn't make me happy to ask this, but if you are so sure this is the cave of thiefs you think we are, instead of criticize and insult us the way you do, why don't you choose another place in the world inhabited by the kind of human beings you seem to belive still exist, and prove fortune there?

Don't get me wrong, but I truly believe that working your mind in the way you do, all you'll achieve is getting sick. I'm convinced that as long as freedom exists, nobody is obliged to stay in a place they don't like, forever.

I'm sorry, I would prefer to finish with a more optimistic message for you, but I don't see clearly at this point how.

[QUOTE=Julio]Well, it can be said from your words, you had a very bad experience with argentines here.

I'm very sorry, and I wouldn't question you about that.

But you can't draw, from a single experience, a general law.

There's a lot of testimonies, in this blog and everywhere, of foreigners having a hell of a good time in Argentina. Not only tourists. Even people who had choose this country to came to live in, marry a local girl and grow up his family.

But you seems to prefer to keep on mourning about all our faults, and how we are not what you think we should be.

It doesn't make me happy to ask this, but if you are so sure this is the cave of thiefs you think we are, instead of criticize and insult us the way you do, why don't you choose another place in the world inhabited by the kind of human beings you seem to belive still exist, and prove fortune there?

Don't get me wrong, but I truly believe that working your mind in the way you do, all you'll achieve is getting sick. I'm convinced that as long as freedom exists, nobody is obliged to stay in a place they don't like, forever.

I'm sorry, I would prefer to finish with a more optimistic message for you, but I don't see clearly at this point how.[/QUOTE]I hardly think that my opinion is based on a single experience. 18 years of doing business here has led me to my opinions. And when I need personal advice about my mental wellbeing, I will solicit it. Remember that Argentina has the highest per capita mental professionals in the world, so it is highly probable that statistic is a reflection of their mental state. So on this occasion, I will pass on taking your advice and reflect that your attitude towards criticism of Argentina is the common response. Unless your approaches are changed, the country will continue to be a basket case and the people remain amongst the most distrusted in the world.

What is true of individuals here is also true of them in a collective sense. Those adjectives I used are equally true of the government. For the last 50 years (since Peron) they have become infamous in the world for their opportunism (Falklands / Malvinas, Chile boundary disputes, las Papeleras and Uruguay) at an international level. And to continue, the so called 'Dirty War' of the 70's was conducted by Argentines of each side of the political spectrum, with the government of the day, massacring its own people, the cumulative effects still very much in play. And for good measure, how about honesty in business. The truth is there is little integrity apparent in Argentine private and public business dealings. Both groups default with never even a backwards glance at their creditors. So the financial system is disfunctional and don't even mention the baseness of the banks. The only funding for the government requirements is available from Chavez and that is at the usurous rate of 15%. Most other government's bond sales are less than a third of that rate.

So the cost of this immorality is expensive. Without doubt, the economy is going to fail. Our papers will be full of photographs of misty-eyed Argentinos, bewailing their misfortune and of course seeking to blame others. This time round there is no IMF or World Bank to blame, or the Club of Paris. Perhaps if they look in the mirror they may catch a glimpse of the culprit. After all, they are the ones who elect their government.

Argento

[QUOTE=Julio]if you are so sure this is the cave of thiefs you think we are, instead of criticize and insult us the way you do, why don't you choose another place in the world inhabited by the kind of human beings you seem to belive still exist, and prove fortune there?[/QUOTE]This is the classic Argentine response. I have heard this in many, many conversations. "Argentina is perfect." No it's not because of these reasons. "Then if it's not great why don't you leave." It rarely occurs to Argentines that foreigners might choose to stay in their country in spite of them rather than because of them.

What concerns me most about the future of Argentina is not how many expats become disgusted and decide to leave, but how many bright, young Argentines I've met in Europe and North America who have already done so. Their decisions were not so much about race or pussy but clearly about economic opportunity. Also, I don't think the prevelence of psychologists in BA is a reflection of a sicker community. I'm thinking of alot of places that could use regular couch time more than the portenos.

Come on! I don't know if it is THE cave of thieves, Ciudad del Este is worse, but surely it is a cave of thieves.

I found another interesting word "la viveza criolla". "oportunista, falso, sobrador. Holgazán, coimero why listo para hacerse de cualquier ventaja." "Zafar es una de sus grandes habilidades."

You can read more here:

[url]http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/argentina/viveza.htm[/url]

It is compiled from 100% argentinian sources.

Why am I staying?

Argentina controls 20% of the world's pussy industry.

Seriously, I think many foreigners appreciate the viveza criolla. That is, the good parts of it. That is what makes Argentina so special. It is a love and hate situation.

[QUOTE=Julio]It doesn't make me happy to ask this, but if you are so sure this is the cave of thiefs you think we are, instead of criticize and insult us the way you do, why don't you choose another place in the world inhabited by the kind of human beings you seem to belive still exist, and prove fortune there?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Mike Cockburn]Come on! I don't know if it is THE cave of thieves, Ciudad del Este is worse, but surely it is a cave of thieves.

I found another interesting word "la viveza criolla". "oportunista, falso, sobrador. Holgazán, coimero why listo para hacerse de cualquier ventaja." "Zafar es una de sus grandes habilidades."

You can read more here:

[url]http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/argentina/viveza.htm[/url]

It is compiled from 100% argentinian sources.

Why am I staying?

Argentina controls 20% of the world's pussy industry.

Seriously, I think many foreigners appreciate the viveza criolla. That is, the good parts of it. That is what makes Argentina so special. It is a love and hate situation.[/QUOTE]Thanks for the support. I guess those of us who choose to live here, like their lives a bit on the edge. Certainly that applies in my instance. But being a true skeptic, I question and want knowledge so that I can form an opinion based on facts. Personal experience is the best empirical evidence you can get. And my posts, when I offer an opinion, are based on my own experiences in business here. No bullshit! The reality as I experienced it. I choose to live and work here, but that doesn't mean that I do not see things as they are, not as they ought to be. And once you get out of the, by Argentine standards, swish tourist zonas, it's a fairly dismal and patently venal world. I wish the best for Argentina and hope they can bridge the divide between hubris and reality. My 18 years experience has only seen the gap widen. I don't have an answer (s) And if I did, my guess is it would be received like reality is received by Julio. Shoot the messenger!

Argento

[QUOTE=Argento]Personal experience is the best empirical evidence you can get. [/QUOTE]Absolutely questionable. Personal experience is nothing without a rational mind to bind the facts. Dreams are personal experiences, too. And visions blurred by the alcohol.

Hate is another big distortive of reality.

After reading all these posts I'm frankly amazed by the hell of a bad time some of you must be leading here. It's not easy waking up every day in a place you despise so much, and make up your mind to hate everyone who crosses your way. Seems to me you're the kind of people who find scoundrels and thieves everywhere. Today's Argentine, but tomorrow may be Brasil, or Mexico, Spain. Or wherever you choose to live. You'll find that people are mean, and inconsiderate and hypocrite and insincere, and so on. Because those characteristics are in your mind and in the way you see the world. If the things you say about us were true, there wouldn't be the amount of people every day, from everyplace of the world came to visit this place. And as I already said, establish themselves for work and living.

Three opinions put together doesn't make a reality.

Come on, Argento, put down your resentment for a while and look around you what a beautiful place you, yourself, once choose to live in. What's donne is donne, and perhaps you had a bad experience with the wrong person, but that doesn't mean we argentines are all the same.

Let's meet one day for a beer, if you want, and let's talk about this or whatever you like.

As Doggboy said some posts ago, this thread has deriled from it's initial topic, wich was racism.

Mongers,

I have been living and doing business here for over three years now, and can without a doubt testify that Argentines are the most dishonest people I have encountered in any of the 25 or so countries I have visited. As my former friend DudeinBA once told me, they are simply "TRUTH CHALLENGED". I have visited Colombia, Paraguay, Brasil, Bolivia, Uruguay, Peru, and Chile and Argentina is the only one where I have to watch every little detail anytime money is involved. When I travel to these other countries, I have to constantly remind myself that I am not in Argentina anymore and that I can relax and let my guard down a bit when it comes to issues involving money.

This corruption is prevalent in both the private and public sectors; in the private sector nearly every single person selling you something over the long term will attempt to screw you whether it be through deceptive price raising or shortchanging quantity of product. In the public sector, every level is thoroughly corrupt, whether it be the garbage man, police, politicians, or public health workers. They all either steal public funds or solicit and accept bribes. The corruption is so deeply ingrained in the culture and society that the people hardly blink an eye when $800,000 USD shows up in a suitcase meant for the future president or when $80,000 USD is mysteriously found in the bathroom of the office of the Minister of Economy. Can you imagine if this amount of undocumented cash was discovered in the hands or connected to a prominant policitian or minister in the USA or Europe? That person would be in jail for a long, long time, in Argentina they elect that person President or appoint their husband to a highly paid gnocchi job.

How about the inflation index? Could their possibly be anything more dishonest than the rubbish that the INDEC publishes? The INDEC, which is a puppet of the Kirchners, estimates inflation is 11% when in fact it is 3X higher. On another issue, the Argentina's external debt has risen to levels HIGHER than what they were at the time of the 2002 default. Argentina doesn't care what interest rate they have to pay to finance new bonds because they know within a few years they will just default again anyway and stop making payments.

The Argentines have nobody but themselves to blame for this corrupt third world quagmire they have created. They have a culture of corruption here because they tolerate a culture of corruption. They know that lying and stealing are immoral, they do have bibles here, as they are all "catholics", yet they engage in it as a society and they tolerate it from their peers. The people seeking high public office in Argentina are simply seeking a license to steal and enrich themselves and their associates through said graft and corruption. My former boss down here used to always tell me in reference to the Argentines, "they are so stupid they do not know they are stupid".

That said, Buenos Aires is one of my favorite cities in the world, and is surely one of the most entertaining and energetic. It truly is the wild west here, there are almost no rules here, it is still cheaper than other places on it level, and there is a ton of cheap (pros) and accessible (nonpros) pussy around. It truly is a damn good place to live as an expat, and I would not trade the last three years of my life here for anything.

Suerte,

Rock Harders

What does happen when a member of the U. S. House of Representatives is found with $90,000.00, In his refrigerator?

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Jefferson[/url]

And one for the other team, Ted Stevens from Alasaka.

[url]http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a4U6k9fZABc0&refer=home[/url]

I agree with R Harders-please split this thread off. At this point it is a long way from the topic of racism in Argentina.