[QUOTE=Mike Cockburn]Even if a country is short on cash, the basic needs must be fulfilled first.[/QUOTE]That's desirable, but. Who pays for that? And where the money comes from?
Andres
Printable View
[QUOTE=Mike Cockburn]Even if a country is short on cash, the basic needs must be fulfilled first.[/QUOTE]That's desirable, but. Who pays for that? And where the money comes from?
Andres
[QUOTE=Geo Eye]This is true, Mr. Harders and it is one of the many things wrong with Argentines.
I think their biggest problem is they are so closed-minded, they cannot think outside the box. It is like they walk around with blinder on, not aware of the outside world.[/QUOTE]It would be much more worthy to inquire abut the causes of Argentines' behavior in general than to tag them.
Andres
[QUOTE=Big Bob 7]This is the classic Argentine response. I have heard this in many, many conversations. "Argentina is perfect." No it's not because of these reasons. "Then if it's not great why don't you leave." It rarely occurs to Argentines that foreigners might choose to stay in their country in spite of them rather than because of them.[/QUOTE]I don't think that Julio asked it with that intention.
It's hard sometimes to understand some attitudes, specially from a guy who is a businessman in Argentina since very long and who pictures a very grim reality of the country. Something doesn't fit:
1) If you tag Argentines as very corrupt people but you do business for years and years there, chances are that you are adapting to local rules and becoming corrupt too (or at least allowing corruption to pass by and not reporting it)
2) If you think that the country is going to collapse soon, then it's hard to understand how are you still doing business there.
3) If you are VERY assertive that the country is going to collapse soon, then many Argentines will catch that you are wishing that to happen and that you have a stake in that aftermath becoming true. Many guys from the financial sector fit that profile, the ones who have been predicting the collapse since 2002 and who miss the golden days under the Menem terms.
Complaining about Argentina and Argentines is OK, and in fact I agree on half of the comments I read here (especially on Argentines not taking responsibility of their actions) but if someone is so bitterly annoyed by Argentines' behavior and still living there, then he has a problem and that casts doubt about either his mental health or his true intentions and objectives.
Andres
[QUOTE=Rock Harders]Mongers,
I have been living and doing business here for over three years now, and can without a doubt testify that Argentines are the most dishonest people I have encountered in any of the 25 or so countries I have visited.[/QUOTE]Then you haven't visited Russia or India. Argentina is very corrupt, no doubt about it, but I heard some horror stories about Russia that are too much for Argentine corruption standards.
My point is that exaggerating the corruption level of Argentina takes credibility from your words. Paraguay is way more corrupt than Argentina.
Andres
There is always money.
Like when you say "I can't, I don't have time". Everybody has time! 24h per day. It is always a question of priorities.
Don't you always have money for food and clothes no matter how little money you've got.
Isn't it more important to provide food and education, rather than building a tren bala or other big projects. Having poor people is an indirect cost, it is not only a social debt, but it is a running cost, converted in higher crime rate and low productivity.
[QUOTE=Andres]That's desirable, but. Who pays for that? And where the money comes from?
Andres[/QUOTE]
I can't stand the argentinian strikes. They really hurt the companies and in the long term themselves. In other countries, the strikes are more civilized,
For example, the pilots denies to work extra hours, If that doesn't work they gradually make the measures harder.
The strikes (different unions taking shifts) probably wiped out the profits and created a deficit. In that position it is logically harder to accept higher wages and pay for the necessary repairs (they had 40 or so planes on the ground)
I have a friend working in a travel agency. She stopped selling aerolineas long ago (over a year ago) in favor of other airlines. AA is just not trustworthy, planes are canceled without notice, the employees strike all the time. Don't think for a minute, that she is the only one that has stopped selling tickets from aerolineas.
The owners have acted as amateurs. But without money, poor service, and declining sales, not even professionals can save a sinking ship.
The employees doomed the company and themselves.
[QUOTE=Andres]I agree that endlessly striking cannot be supported by any company, but unfortunately it's the only way workers have to voice up their claims.
Andres[/QUOTE]
1) Yes. Foreign companies adapt themselves to local rules. They know that Nothing Happens, if you don't bribe. It is how the argentinian system works. They prefer to bribe than to loose the buisiness. Is it wrong? Yes. Can they do business without bribes here? If the competition bribes, probably not.
2) According to the chinese. Chaos, means both Crise and Oportunity. After the crise comes the oportunity. Those that bought departments in 2001-2002, made a pretty good deal.
3) There are some that the thinks that the crise will come very soon.
There are those that will ignore its possibility until the day it happened.
I was here in 2001. I told some people that foreign newspapers saw a devaluation coming. One answer I got was "No! It is 1 dolar 1 peso. They can't change it. It is a law!". I shut my mouth. I was a tourist, and didn't want to make enemies unnecessarily. But the government did change it.
I think there will be a recession, crise is a too strong word, it won't be as bad as the last crise. Aren't there signs already? The government already has problems finding funding for its expenses and the inflation skyrockets. The productivity is on decline.
[QUOTE=Andres]I don't think that Julio asked it with that intention.
It's hard sometimes to understand some attitudes, specially from a guy who is a businessman in Argentina since very long and who pictures a very grim reality of the country. Something doesn't fit:
1) If you tag Argentines as very corrupt people but you do business for years and years there, chances are that you are adapting to local rules and becoming corrupt too (or at least allowing corruption to pass by and not reporting it)
2) If you think that the country is going to collapse soon, then it's hard to understand how are you still doing business there.
3) If you are VERY assertive that the country is going to collapse soon, then many Argentines will catch that you are wishing that to happen and that you have a stake in that aftermath becoming true. Many guys from the financial sector fit that profile, the ones who have been predicting the collapse since 2002 and who miss the golden days under the Menem terms.
Complaining about Argentina and Argentines is OK, and in fact I agree on half of the comments I read here (especially on Argentines not taking responsibility of their actions) but if someone is so bitterly annoyed by Argentines' behavior and still living there, then he has a problem and that casts doubt about either his mental health or his true intentions and objectives.
Andres[/QUOTE]
Whats interesting about this discussion is the obvious no one has mentioned.
Consider this, Aerolineas Argentina holds most of the in country, the small communites they serve hostage.
As an example:
Several years ago I wanted to go fly fishing in San Martian de Los Andies. Everything was set, hotels, fishing guides, ect, ect.
There was only one problem, Aerolineas Argentina. They were on again, off again, striking so I had to cancell the whole trip. I could not take the chance that if I went I couldn't get back in time to catch my flight back home.
That in itself was not good, but take into consideration the bigger picture and everyones lose's the revenues I would have spent. The Hotel I would have stayed in, the restaurants I would have eaten in, the fishing guides I would have hired, even the "Trinkets" I would have bought.
Now I'm just one person, but consider a whole plane load and your talking about a lot of money that was not spent in that little economy of San Martain.
A year or so later I made the trip, $500 USD round trip, I asked the locals in San Martain. They all agreed that the whole community was at the complete mercy of Aerolineas Argentina. If the airline strikes the whole city goe's into a recession.
Exon
[QUOTE=Andres]If you think that the country is going to collapse soon, then it's hard to understand how are you still doing business there.[/QUOTE][QUOTE=Mike Cockburn]According to the chinese. Chaos, means both Crise and Oportunity. After the crise comes the opportunity. Those that bought departments in 2001-2002, made a pretty good deal.[/QUOTE]Nice boy.
Nice ethics.
So, you're waiting for everything to crash down so you can buy your chinese departments in Recoleta.
What I fail to understand is why, since airplanes exist, you have to be living here (bearing this torment) instead of waiting in a tropical beach our final collapse, then take a jet and materialize your incredible operation.
Since you're another exponent of the brilliant intelligence North America has sent us lately, I'm sure there must be a reason.
Please enlight me.
[QUOTE=Mike Cockburn]There is always money.
Like when you say "I can't, I don't have time". Everybody has time! 24h per day. It is always a question of priorities.
Don't you always have money for food and clothes no matter how little money you've got.
Isn't it more important to provide food and education, rather than building a tren bala or other big projects. Having poor people is an indirect cost, it is not only a social debt, but it is a running cost, converted in higher crime rate and low productivity.[/QUOTE]I agree on your approach of covering basic people needs, at least for not facing high crime rates in the future. But it is naive to think that the state has an endless supply of money.
Individuals and companies doesn't like to subsidize the poor and, with the state not owning those cash-cow companies, little can you have money to spend. Just recall the fiercity of the recent farm lockout, a sector who's currently enjoying an unprecedented bonanza.
Andres
[QUOTE=Mike Cockburn]I can't stand the argentinian strikes. They really hurt the companies and in the long term themselves. In other countries, the strikes are more civilized,
For example, the pilots denies to work extra hours, If that doesn't work they gradually make the measures harder.[/QUOTE]Strikes work that way in Argentina because only by playing at the extremes do executives sit at the negotiating table. If you just wave signs and flags, they laugh at you.
For your proposal to work, the work-relations courts has to work promptly, something that doesn't happen.
[QUOTE=Mike Cockburn]The strikes (different unions taking shifts) probably wiped out the profits and created a deficit. In that position it is logically harder to accept higher wages and pay for the necessary repairs (they had 40 or so planes on the ground)[/QUOTE]You need to study a little bit more the case of Aerolineas before building theories of profits and losses. After the privatization, the company ceased to be profitable and was passing from hands to hands (Iberia, American, LAN Chile) once the Spaniards sold the main assets (offices in NY, Paris, etc, and planes) Of course, between every move the state covered a part of the salaries and losses in order to keep a neuralgic company running.
[QUOTE=Mike Cockburn]I have a friend working in a travel agency. She stopped selling aerolineas long ago (over a year ago) in favor of other airlines. AA is just not trustworthy, planes are canceled without notice, the employees strike all the time. Don't think for a minute, that she is the only one that has stopped selling tickets from aerolineas.[/QUOTE]This doesn't mean very much for the Aerolineas case. As Exon explains in his posting, Aerolineas is virtually monopolic for many routes, so if you don't buy Aerolineas tickets you have to take the bus.
Andres
[QUOTE=Mike Cockburn]2) According to the chinese. Chaos, means both Crise and Oportunity. After the crise comes the oportunity. Those that bought departments in 2001-2002, made a pretty good deal.[/QUOTE]The problem with that reasoning is that it only works for people holding large amounts of cash and only for a while (if at all, since I doubt that Recoleta-apts owners would sell their apartments cheap if a crisis arrives) It's very far away from a sound economic policy aimed at creating jobs and wealth for the long term.
[QUOTE=Mike Cockburn]I think there will be a recession, crise is a too strong word, it won't be as bad as the last crise. Aren't there signs already? The government already has problems finding funding for its expenses and the inflation skyrockets. The productivity is on decline.[/QUOTE]Soon or later a recession will arrive. After all, you cannot keep 6-7-8% growth rates forever.
However, sound economic policies go beyond growth and recession times. You cannot change a "social agreement" just because your fundamentals are weakening. In this case, you are not dealing with the stock market but with the economy at a whole.
Andres
[QUOTE=Andres]little can you have money to spend.[/QUOTE]But I had to point out you went a little Yoda on us here.
[QUOTE=Julio]Nice boy.
Nice ethics.
So, you're waiting for everything to crash down so you can buy your chinese departments in Recoleta.
What I fail to understand is why, since airplanes exist, you have to be living here (bearing this torment) instead of waiting in a tropical beach our final collapse, then take a jet and materialize your incredible operation.
Since you're another exponent of the brilliant intelligence North America has sent us lately, I'm sure there must be a reason.
Please enlight me.[/QUOTE]JAJAJA so typically Argentine, none of us are saying we don't like it there. It's a symptom of your mass delusion of grandeur that you can't accept that your system is fucked up. "You Yanqui pigs have nothing to teach us, if you don't like go back where you came from."
I learned a lot about enjoying life in the two years I lived in BsAs. How family is more important than money, how to be a better friend. In order to do that I had to first admit that what I thought I knew might be wrong, then I was ready to observe and learn. Too bad most Latins can't break through the Machista to do the same regarding building a country.
But if they did I wouldn't be able to fuck cute girls for 30 bucks so on balance, as the song says "don't go changing."
Andres nothing after the second quote was aimed at you.
I think they should apply taxes on more sectors and on individuals.
The tax for the rich and middle class is very low. It is a small tax haven.
I was against resolution 125. The tax was as high as 80%. That is too much! Some farmers were loosing money. They could have just increased it 10% and gotten away with it.
Overtaxation leads to poor productivity. If the industry were allowed to increase their production. The tax income would increase.
[QUOTE=Andres]I agree on your approach of covering basic people needs, at least for not facing high crime rates in the future. But it is naive to think that the state has an endless supply of money.
Individuals and companies doesn't like to subsidize the poor and, with the state not owning those cash-cow companies, little can you have money to spend. Just recall the fiercity of the recent farm lockout, a sector who's currently enjoying an unprecedented bonanza.
Andres[/QUOTE]
I see you are full of prejudices.
I am not from North America, not from Australia, nor the UK.
Ethics?
I know a lot of argentinians that bought cheap. The argentine economy would never have boosted without the devaluation. Is it ethical to be a farmer?
[QUOTE=Julio]Nice boy.
Nice ethics.
So, you're waiting for everything to crash down so you can buy your chinese departments in Recoleta.
What I fail to understand is why, since airplanes exist, you have to be living here (bearing this torment) instead of waiting in a tropical beach our final collapse, then take a jet and materialize your incredible operation.
Since you're another exponent of the brilliant intelligence North America has sent us lately, I'm sure there must be a reason.
Please enlight me.[/QUOTE]
I like living here too. I have a degree in Latin American history and have studied the history of the country quite thoroughly. So all this crap about not understanding why things are the way they are here is a little tough to apply to me. I have been all over the former Spanish colonies and I [b]do[/b] understand why things are the way they are. Furthermore, I knew about the racism and corruption (and inefficiency) before I moved down here. The racism doesn't affect me since I'm white, and the corruption is a minor nuisance since I don't do banking here, or own property.
Here's the kind of shit that drives me nuts.
Carrefour Story #1: Sign says, "15% off on X, Y, and Z if you use any debit card. " X happens to be "bebidas" so I buy a bunch of booze, go to the check out counter, hand over my VISA debit card, and get no discount. "Why? " I ask. "This is not a debit card. " "It says 'debit' right on it, right here (pointing). " "Well, our system says it's a credit card. " "How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? " "Five. " "No, four, because calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg. "
I am in the express line and people are getting impatient. I tell her to get the manager. Manager agrees it's a debit card, but it's a US debit card. I agree. "So that's why you don't get the discount. " "Here is the ad. It says [b]any[/b] debit card. It doesn't say any [b]Argentinean[/b] debit card. " "Well, I am not giving you the discount. " "OK, I want to talk to the store manager. And, if I don't get the discount, I'm not making the purchase. " With a heavy sigh, she manually overrides the system and gives me the discount. Later one guy who was in line congratulated me. The rest were pissed.
Carrefour Story #2: I have three quarts of Brahma in the cart so I take one out so she can run the bar code, and I tell her I have a total of three of these identical items. Before I leave the store, I check the receipt. It shows one quart of Brahma but 3 dozen eggs. I only bought one dozen eggs. Eggs are 6. 09 and Brahma is 2. 50 so I am out 7. 18. In order to rectify this, I had to:
1) Go back to the register where I had to take the beer out of my backpack so it could be rung up. Yes, folks, first make the gringo pay for the beer!
2) Go to customer service, explain what happened, and wait while they call the cashier to give her a lengthy interrogation;
3) Take the credit they gave me back through the line (that's the third time through the line if you are keeping score at home);
4) Hear the mandatory request to donate the 18 centavos to Unicef since they have no monedas; and
5) Wait several more minutes for some flunky to arrive with monedas.
Fortunately, after all was said and done I discovered I had screwed them out of two bottle deposits so I had an extra 2.48 as compensation for all this bullshit.
And Daddy, didn't you get a trucho 50 at some coffee shop and threaten to sleep on the counter until they made good on it?
[QUOTE=Dickhead]And Daddy, didn't you get a trucho 50 at some coffee shop and threaten to sleep on the counter until they made good on it?[/QUOTE]I forgot all about that, yes I did. It was at the cafe on Corrientes and Maipu or Esmeralda. They didn't want to exchange the bill and it got pretty heated. They assumed that because I looked and sounded like a tourist I would just hang my head and leave. Wups, I did indeed tell that pelotudo I would sleep on the counter until I got my change.
Doesn't top my buddies story of the real estate agent that switched out 600 bucks on his deposit though. He had to give a 1500 dollar deposit, along with two months rent for a total of 4500 dollars. Before he came to BsAs he had gone to the Bank of America in Seattle and got 45 100 dollar bills, it was still in the bank envelope when he gave it to the agent. While he inspected the apartment he had his Argentinian wife who was 8.9 months pregnant counting money with the agent. During the counting she had to take a pee. When he got back with the agent, the agent had separated 6 bills saying they were trucho. Upon inspection they were, so one of two things happened. Either he got 6 100 dollar bills from the B of A printed on copy paper with the same serial number or the agent came to the meeting prepared to rob him if the opportunity presented itself. You can decide for your self which is more likely.
More telling about this transaction and how ingrained corruption is in the psyche of S America (not just Argentina but it is high art there) was Sofi's reaction to this story. She said "why didn't he compare them to the list?" I said "what list?" She answered the paper he had written all of the serial numbers on, or the paper he photocopied the bills on." When I told her he hadn't done that she asked "then how did he expect to get the same bills back from his deposit?" When people buy houses there do they sit in a little room in a bank and count and verify the money? I'm serious about this question. Bad you have bought a shitload of apartments, how do the mechanics of that transaction work?
She was not surprised, shocked, amazed or anything by the actions of the agent. Rather the converse, she was amazed that a man as intelligent as my friend would be so dumb to expose himself to being robbed like that. I tried explaining how long the agent would spend in jail in the EEUU for doing that but I could see that she just couldn't grasp the idea. She couldn't imagine local police coming in, then calling the Secret Service and FBI to report the debased currency, and somebody for damn sure investigating not only who tried to screw who but also the source of where the money had come from. It was just completely outside of her experience to have an expectation of justice in a crime like this. She didn't really even think of it as crime, just a smart Portenyo taking down an unwary Yanqui, she didn't like it because he is my best friend, but had it been a stranger I doubt if she would have even given it a shoulder shrug.
[QUOTE=Mike Cockburn]I think they should apply taxes on more sectors and on individuals.
The tax for the rich and middle class is very low. It is a small tax haven. [/QUOTE]I agree, but then you say:
[QUOTE=Mike Cockburn]I was against resolution 125. The tax was as high as 80%. That is too much! Some farmers were loosing money. They could have just increased it 10% and gotten away with it.
Overtaxation leads to poor productivity. If the industry were allowed to increase their production. The tax income would increase.[/QUOTE]I don't know where you get the 80% taxation. I guess that you take it from the sliding scale taxes when the international soy price rises over acertain value (in fact, tax is 95% if it gets over USD 600/ Ton)
In fact, what they did is increase it over 6% provided that the price remained at the November 2007 values. Only those values exceeding it would be taxed higher (hence the sliding tax idea) However, the media was pretty effective in convincing people that farmers are almost bankrupt.
This is just an example of how difficult is to tax middle and high class incomes. Unfortunately, when you deal with public policies, you have to take it into account.
I don't understand your mention of "industry" on your comment, unless that you consider crops as industrial goods.
Andres
Industry, was thought in terms of production. Maybe it is not the correct term, but the agriculture is a form of industry, Its production is industrialized, in its extension there are plants (factories) that make flour and oil from the seeds.
The big exporters are surely makeing a fortune. The primary fault of the tax, was that it was based on the revenue rather than the profit. That is why it was so unfair for small producers, apart from being so high.
[QUOTE=Andres]I agree, but then you say:
I don't know where you get the 80% taxation. I guess that you take it from the sliding scale taxes when the international soy price rises over acertain value (in fact, tax is 95% if it gets over USD 600/ Ton)
In fact, what they did is increase it over 6% provided that the price remained at the November 2007 values. Only those values exceeding it would be taxed higher (hence the sliding tax idea) However, the media was pretty effective in convincing people that farmers are almost bankrupt.
This is just an example of how difficult is to tax middle and high class incomes. Unfortunately, when you deal with public policies, you have to take it into account.
I don't understand your mention of "industry" on your comment, unless that you consider crops as industrial goods.
Andres[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Andres]This is just an example of how difficult is to tax middle and high class incomes. Unfortunately, when you deal with public policies, you have to take it into account.
I don't understand your mention of "industry" on your comment, unless that you consider crops as industrial goods.
Andres[/QUOTE]You have a great misunderstanding about what is income, (profit) and what is cash-flow. Income, (profit) is what you have left after your costs. This is the only country in my experience that seeks to tax cash-flow, irrespective of profit. At some stage, and with the decline in soy prices, after selling their products, all the income will be main-lined to the government. If it is such a great idea, why not apply it to all businesses across the board? Confiscate 45% of all the cash-flow from all of the businesses. Boy, wouldn't there be some pot-banging then. Methinks this is the Peronist class-war; the workers against the landed gentry, represented in a different guise. And the nation generally as a whole, Andres being part of the group of exceptions, didn't buy it. It just proves that Rock Harder's old boss was perhaps a triffle harsh in saying how stupid Argentinos are. Enough rebelled against the Peronist camp so maybe there is some hope. But obviously not for you Andres. You still have your cock firmly in your paw, peddling such socialist crap. If socialism is the answer, give us a pointer in the direction of just one country where it has been as successful as the Western democracies? And incidently, the reality is that broad-acre crops are an industrial product.
Argento
[QUOTE=Mike Cockburn]Industry, was thought in terms of production. Maybe it is not the correct term, but the agriculture is a form of industry, Its production is industrialized, in its extension there are plants (factories) that make flour and oil from the seeds.
The big exporters are surely making a fortune. The primary fault of the tax, was that it was based on the revenue rather than the profit. That is why it was so unfair for small producers, apart from being so high.[/QUOTE]The problem with using the term industry in this case is that, paradoxically, many farmers are leaving "production" of milk and meat to planting and exporting soy, because the latter is much more profitable and demands much less investment in terms of manpower. In fact one of the concerns of letting farmers getting away with a "low" sliding scale is that prices of basic foods such as milk and meat will rise given the surge in internal demand and stagnating productions levels.
Andres
[QUOTE=Argento]You have a great misunderstanding about what is income, (profit) and what is cash-flow. Income, (profit) is what you have left after your costs.[/QUOTE]Wrong. Income and profit are two different concepts.
[QUOTE=Argento] At some stage, and with the decline in soy prices, after selling their products, all the income will be main-lined to the government.[/QUOTE]Wrong. That would happen with a fixed, high tax rate, not with a sliding one. In fact, many members of FAA wonder what they had to gain with rejecting the proposal sent to the Congress, since now they are worse off with a fixed 35% tax rate.
[QUOTE=Argento] Methinks this is the Peronist class-war; the workers against the landed gentry, represented in a different guise.[/QUOTE]There is a class struggle, that's for sure. We already discussed it.
[QUOTE=Argento] And incidently, the reality is that broad-acre crops are an industrial product.
Argento[/QUOTE]Not in the way Rock tried to refer to since, with the exception of soy oil, they are not transformed or manufactured in Argentina, merely exported as crops.
Andres
[QUOTE=Argento]It just proves that Rock Harder's old boss was perhaps a triffle harsh in saying how stupid Argentinos are.
Argento[/QUOTE]OK. Argento, you try to sound smart insulting one time after the other the Argentine people like that, but the true is that I've never seen in my life so resentful and dumb a fellow as you.
No wonder you paid U$S 10.000 of a bribe no one, with a minimun of common sense, would have ever paid.
[QUOTE=Julio]OK. Argento, you try to sound smart insulting one time after the other the Argentine people like that, but the true is that I've never seen in my life so resentful and dumb a fellow as you.
No wonder you paid U$S 10.000 of a bribe no one, with a minimun of common sense, would have ever paid.[/QUOTE]I honestly swear to God don't mean to offend, but this again is so typically Argentine. Not that the bribe in and of itself is wrong, but rather that you paid too big of a bribe. So appropriate for this thread.
In most developed countries, it's against the law not only to receive a bribe but to pay one as well. Not saying good, not saying bad. I will say though that I think it harms your country, 1 dollar or 10,000 dollars. The entire culture of corruption will forever limit Argentina in it's development.
Which is great for me because, like Dickhead, I don't want to bank or own a business there, just live and fuck lots of cute girls. I hope it never changes. Bring on the next crisis!
Can we put a sock in our respective mouths?
We are poles apart and will never convince the opposing side to ammend their views.
As this is my last post on this particular issue, I give you, the 'deluded duo', last reply. My question is a simple one.
Why is it that Argentinians have a per capita income 6 times less than the USA and Australia, given that they had a 100 year start on the USA and 300 years start on Australia, with equal if not better natural resources to begin with?
Argento
[QUOTE=Argento]Can we put a sock in our respective mouths?
We are poles apart and will never convince the opposing side to ammend their views.[/QUOTE]That's the first sensible thing I hear from you.
But I remind you who began with the aggressions.
[QUOTE=Argento]As this is my last post on this particular issue, I give you, the 'deluded duo', last reply. My question is a simple one.
Why is it that Argentinians have a per capita income 6 times less than the USA and Australia, given that they had a 100 year start on the USA and 300 years start on Australia, with equal if not better natural resources to begin with?[/QUOTE]Does THAT, perhaps, explain why YOU paid a bribe no one with an I. Q. Standard of intelligence would have ever paid?
Don't jump into a train that you never participate in its construction.
Maradona made the best gol of the World Cup history, but not for that I'll consider myself the King of Futbol. In fact, I play it very bad. You should read a little more about the construction of the capital in the developed nations. The operation wasn't so clear and un-corrupt as you imply it were.
[QUOTE=Daddy Rulz]I honestly swear to God don't mean to offend, but this again is so typically Argentine. Not that the bribe in and of itself is wrong, but rather that you paid too big of a bribe. So appropriate for this thread.
In most developed countries, it's against the law not only to receive a bribe but to pay one as well. Not saying good, not saying bad. I will say though that I think it harms your country, 1 dollar or 10,000 dollars. The entire culture of corruption will forever limit Argentina in it's development.
Which is great for me because, like Dickhead, I don't want to bank or own a business there, just live and fuck lots of cute girls. I hope it never changes. Bring on the next crisis![/QUOTE]Daddy, here's something about corruption in the United States of America.:
[url]http://www.world-of-wisdom.com/04_articles/2002/05_corruption.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-01-03-abramoff-side_x.htm[/url]
[url]http://iiipublishing.blogspot.com/2007/05/corruption-in-usa.html[/url]
[url]http://www.methuen.k12.ma.us/pathfinders/Political%20Corruption.htm[/url]
and a youtube direction when you get tired of reading:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CJuvNJyTT8[/url]
[QUOTE=Julio]Daddy, here's something about corruption in the United States of America.:
[url]http://www.world-of-wisdom.com/04_articles/2002/05_corruption.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-01-03-abramoff-side_x.htm[/url]
[url]http://iiipublishing.blogspot.com/2007/05/corruption-in-usa.html[/url]
[url]http://www.methuen.k12.ma.us/pathfinders/Political%20Corruption.htm[/url]
and a youtube direction when you get tired of reading:
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CJuvNJyTT8[/url][/QUOTE]Most of these guys are in jail, not at home missing a little of the money they stole because they were able to pay their way out of jail. Though to be fair, OJ did the same, but his wife was a Gringa so no big deal just one less gold digging frigid white chick to pollute the landscape.
You're right Maradona did score one of the coolest goals in World Cup history. Not exactly sure what that has to do with corruption in Argentina but it is true none the less.
Oh yes, I almost forgot, you told Argento, how did you say that, oh yea "You should read a little more about the construction of the capital in the developed nations." At the turn of the 19th century Argentina had the highest per capita income in the entire world, it was THE developed country. So what happened besides Peron and the corrupt legacy He left behind to leave it where it is today, one first world city in a third world country?
Honestly, I hope you guys never wise up, I swear I do. It's in my best interests for the country to stay as fucked up, I love it just like it is. Just don't try to tell me it's not fucked up when it is brother.
Best wishes, good luck in life, good luck in business, saludos a tu familia y besos para tus padres.
[QUOTE=Daddy Rulz]Most of these guys are in jail, not at home missing a little of the money they stole because they were able to pay their way out of jail. [/QUOTE]If corruption involves appropiating things by force, and if the term "things" involves entire countries where succulent oil wells exists, then the President of the United States of America must be The Bigger Corrupt of the Whole World, Daddy. And as longs as I know, he's free.
[QUOTE=Daddy Rulz]At the turn of the 19th century Argentina had the highest per capita income in the entire world, it was THE developed country. So what happened besides Peron and the corrupt legacy He left behind to leave it where it is today, one first world city in a third world country?[/QUOTE]In fact, the problem is exactly the opposite: a third world city in a first food producer country.
[QUOTE=Daddy Rulz]Best wishes, good luck in life, good luck in business, saludos a tu familia why besos para tus padres.[/QUOTE]Thank you. My regards to your family too.
[QUOTE=Julio]If corruption involves appropiating things by force, and if the term "things" involves entire countries where succulent oil wells exists, then the President of the United States of America must be The Bigger Corrupt of the Whole World, Daddy.[/QUOTE]You will know that we are in complete agreement, George W is the second worst President in my country's history, beaten only by the singular President from my home State James Buchanan. He openly sold access to, and favors from, the Oval Office. I think W is more evil than corrupt though. The Penguin now that's the corrupt mother fucker. (Sorry Jax, but it's my opinion and we still live in the land of the somewhat free and home of the kinda brave)
You guys are still way, way ahead. Can't mention Iraq without opening yourself up to the political reasons behind the invasion of the Malvinas brother. The dying remnants of a corrupt regime starting a war, sending ill equipped young men to die for a worthless cause, in order to generate political support. Sound familiar?
The funny (funny tragic, not funny haha) part was they actually expected the EEUU to come in on the side of Argentina against England. I know we were grossly in violation of the treaty existing between EEUU and Argentina (I forget it's name but like NATO between the countries of N America and S America) in supplying the targeting data for that missile that sank that Argentine ship. While I respect the memory of the men that died on it, anybody who thinks we won't trash all treaties when England is involved is delusional.
Other weird thing, turns out there was oil around the Malvinas all the time. Kind of makes you go hmmmm. That was 20 years before Iraq brother.
[QUOTE=Daddy Rulz]Can't mention Iraq without opening yourself up to the political reasons behind the invasion of the Malvinas brother. The dying remnants of a corrupt regime starting a war, sending ill equipped young men to die for a worthless cause, in order to generate political support. Sound familiar? [/QUOTE]Are you really comparing Iraq and Malvinas? Come on, brother.:-)
Julio offers the typical Argentine response when anyone suggests that corruption in Argentina is the difference between the USA and the Argentine economies. They'll discount the crippling effect of corruption here by citing some isolated examples of corruption in the USA, without actually addressing the question as to why the Argentina economy is always in the toilet.
Okay Julio, I'll ask the question more directly:
"[i]Assuming that corruption is as rampant in the USA as it is in Argentina, then how, given essentially the same natural resources and the same immigrant population over essentially the same period of time, did the USA build the world's strongest economy while Argentine lurches from one economic collapse to another?[/i]"
Thanks,
Jackson
[QUOTE=Schmoj]Are you really comparing Iraq and Malvinas? Come on, brother.:-)[/QUOTE]There are similarities I think, but my reason for painting this picture was because Julio said that Bush going to war in Iraq was a corrupt act in that is was like Grand Larceny between nation states (to steal Tom Clancy's definition of war) I think there are, in that limited sense, parallels between Iraq and The Malvinas, so I made the comparison. I adamantly believe that they were both ill conceived, poorly executed, and doomed to fail attempts at gunboat diplomacy.
I have been in opposition to the Iraq invasion (part 2) since the build up. I won't argue this fact with any members of the board in this venue because my mind is as closed to change as theirs are. I only stated this in response to your politely (thank you very much) phrased question. The war in Iraq wasn't ever about stability in the region, WMDs, or liberating the Iraqi people. It was and is about oil and money. I'm not against either, I just hate it when somebody pisses in my ear and tells me it's raining. I do think however in some delusional place in their world view the Axis of Evil (Rhumsfeld, Chaney, and Wolfiwitz) honestly thought that after we had boots on the ground in Baghdad that somehow everything through some magical process would just be hunkey dorey, hence no real or effective planning for any period of time since Sadams statue got pulled down.
Before I get painted as some neo hippy, communist faggot cheese eating surrender monkey by the right wing reactionaries on this board. I was in support of Iraq 1, and the invasion of Afghanistan. I also said, again before the invasion during the bullshit Clinton was doing in Iraq, that if we are going to do anything there (not advocating that we should) we should level the fucking country and declare it the 51st state. Bringing in Starbucks, McDonald's, big fat N American families and great big fucking Army bases. The very minute we leave that country some new strong man will be dictator for life, I only hope he's pro us (meaning the US of A) because I won't lie, I like 3.00 a gallon gas better than 4.00.
I won't respond further to any flames about this post on this board and will delete this post tomorrow. I'm digging the discusion about corruption in S America, and would like to see it continue. If you want to flame me do it in "American Politics" I can ignore you (universal you, not Schmoj you, thanks again for being polite in your opposition) just as easily there as I can here.
[QUOTE=Jackson]Julio offers the typical Argentine response when anyone suggests that corruption in Argentina is the difference between the USA and the Argentine economies. They'll discount the crippling effect of corruption here by citing some isolated examples of corruption in the USA, without actually addressing the question as to why the Argentina economy is always in the toilet.
Okay Julio, I'll ask the question more directly:
"[I]Assuming that corruption is as rampant in the USA as it is in Argentina, then how is it, given essentially the same natural resources and the same immigrant population over essentially the same period of time, did the USA build the world's strongest economy while Argentine lurches from one economic collapse to another?[/i]"
Thanks, Jackson[/QUOTE]I fear however you will have as much luck finding an Argentine to answer this question directly as Diogenes did in finding an honest man, but keep the lamp lit.
[QUOTE=Jackson]Julio offers the typical Argentine response when anyone suggests that corruption in Argentina is the difference between the USA and the Argentine economies. They'll discount the crippling effect of corruption here by citing some isolated examples of corruption in the USA,...(...)([/QUOTE]Come on, Jackson, I've only copied a few internet sites of the 2.085 pages Google has to offer about corruption in the U. S. A. It was nearly noon and I was hungry for lunch.
[QUOTE=Jackson]Okay Julio, I'll ask the question more directly:
"[I]Assuming that corruption is as rampant in the USA as it is in Argentina, then how it is, given essentially the same natural resources and the same immigrant population over essentially the same period of time, did the USA build the world's strongest economy while Argentine lurches from one economic collapse to another?[/i]"[/QUOTE]Then, as you yourself have exposed the reasoning, must be because U.S.A. is MORE corrupt than Argentina.
Let's see: corruption involves essentialy money. The more money you have the more potentialy corrupt you are (not YOU, Jackson, God forbid! I am talking in an impersonal way. I make clear this because everyone here is so susceptible...) More money, as everybody knows in this capitalist world, means more power. Some said "absolute power begets absolute corruption". The initial accumulation of capital made by the U. S. A. In the XIXth. And XXth. Century (by legal and ilegal mediums, I. E. The appropiation of half the Mexican territory by force, the absolute obscure affaires in Centroamerica, mostly by the United Fruit Co. The putting and drawing puppet presidents all over South America for their own economical interests, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera), made that difference.
Should I continue?
If there's corruption around here, nowadays, the U. S. A. Have been a good theacher. We've been modest pupils.
But let me say this, Jackson, as long as you seemed to look at the topic in not the Homero Simpson's way many of the mongers here look at it, that's it "Ho, ho! Let's hope everything goes wrong so I can fuck, with my dollars many Recoleta gatos, and buy a lot of Recoleta departments. Ho, ho!".
Let me point out this:
I never said there wasn't any corruption in Argentina.
There's a lot of corruption.
Like there's a lot of corruption in every other capitalist country (and yes, that's true: in non capitalists countries too) But that implies that ALL WE HERE, in this beautiful country, are corrupt? That corruption permeades every one of us like an Original Sin from long before we're born, and everyone of us, don't matter what we do, no matter the education we had, must carry that corruption-stigma along our lives until the final grave? I think that not. I think saying that is a mistake. I've lived in this country much more than any one of you, because I'm fifty years old and I was born here, and though I been sometime in Europe I lived all my life in Argentina. I lived and worked in many places of Argentina, from Misiones to Puerto Madryn. I meet argentine people everyday, for work reasons and for fun, and I may say with a very low margin of error that they're a long way from been corrupt. And for whom reading the things some of AP mongers wrote in this foro will be an injustice. For not to say an insult. And that's the reason why I took the trouble of answer the incongruities many of you have written. O. K. Yes, when there were too incongurent I didn't take the trouble.
The second point is, that some of you had suffered a bad experience with some corrupt argentines, does this allow you to insult us in general? Call all the argentines "stupid that don't know they're stupid", make delirious interpretations of the Falkland's War or the Military Government? Call us all hypocrit, mean, insincere, etc.
I think that one thing doesn't have to do with the other. If you somehow had a bad experience with a corrupt guy, try to resolve it, denounce him, in last case beat the hell out of him. But not call EVERYBODY corrupt. Because that will be a bad example of inducting reasoning. And as our friend Karl Popper once said, that's not the correct way to reach the truth.
What I tried to say here, forgive me for the lenght, is that although I've read the complains of almost everyone of you, I don't see in my everyday life, when I meet foreign people from every other part of the world, and I used to met a lot of them because I work in a TV Channel, that they complain and mourn about this country in the way you AP mongers seems to do. Maybe ALL the mourners are here, and ALL the non mourners are out and don't write in this blog, but that will be a very very strange situation.
I will repeat it for the 100th. Time: come on, this place is not so bad as you want to depict it. There are some corruption here, as in elsewhere, but we're not ALL corrupt and not so bad people. Try to look everything with new eyes.
And I'll repeat, also, my sincere invitation: I'd be happy if anyone of you wants to share a beer with me to talk about this, or every other thing you want.
I have many Argentine friends and can agree that most are honest and hard working people.
I think your reaction to the bribe Argento paid gives insight to the differences in our cultures. I think having to bribe a paid government employee is wrong and should be punished. You thought his bribe was too high, you may as well think the existence of the bribe is wrong as well but accept it is a way of life there.
My self and most N Americans and N. Europeans think this acceptance of corruption contributes to an atmosphere of that makes situational business ethics pervasive. Whether that's Aerolinas charging tourists a different rate than Argentines or the waiter knowingly saving his trucho bills, or worse yet purchasing trucho bills to pass on to tourists that most likely won't notice them. This acceptance of corruption is pervasive in Argentina, and more in BsAs than Provincia. And the majority of us (N Americans and N Europeans) think that this acceptance works to Argentina's detriment not advantage.
I personally do not pass judgment, I'm not joking when I say I like it as it is. I think it's one of the reasons families and friends are so much closer there than they are here, so like anything else there are pluses and minuses.
I don't know what the word dilerant means regarding the war so I can't respond.
Again saludos to your family.
Abrazo che
"It was nearly noon and I was hungry for lunch" so I did a half-ass job because obviously lunch is more important than working, saving, studying, or investing. Lunch benefits [b]me right now[/b], while all that working and saving stuff takes way too long.
This behavior is consistent with what you would expect in a highly inflationary economy. A "fuck tomorrow" strategy is pretty attractive in times of high inflation!
Phone call for Mr. Delay!
Paging Mr. Delay!
Mr. Delay?
[QUOTE=Julio]Then, as you yourself have exposed the reasoning, must be because U. S. A. Is MORE corrupt than Argentina.
Let's see: corruption involves essentialy money. The more money you have the more potentialy corrupt you are (not YOU, Jackson, God forbid! I am talking in an impersonal way. I make clear this because everyone here is so susceptible. More money, as everybody knows in this capitalist world, means more power. Some said "absolute power begets absolute corruption". The initial accumulation of capital made by the U. S. A. In the XIXth. And XXth. Century (by legal and ilegal mediums, I. E. The appropiation of half the Mexican territory by force, the absolute obscure affaires in Centroamerica, mostly by the United Fruit Co. The putting and drawing puppet presidents all over South America for their own economical interests, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera) made that difference.
Should I continue?
If there's corruption around here, nowadays, the U. S. A. Have been a good theacher. We've been modest pupils.[/QUOTE]Let me see if I understand this: The USA is responsible for the corruption in Argentina?
ROTFLMAO!
BTW, you still didn't answer my question, so I'll post it again for you consideration:
[I]"Assuming that corruption is as rampant in the USA as it is in Argentina, then what is the reason, given essentially the same natural resources and the same immigrant population over essentially the same period of time, did the USA build the world's strongest economy while Argentine lurches from one economic collapse to another?"[/i]
Thanks,
Jackson
[QUOTE=Argento]Why is it that Argentinians have a per capita income 6 times less than the USA and Australia, given that they had a 100 year start on the USA and 300 years start on Australia, with equal if not better natural resources to begin with?
Argento[/QUOTE]To start with, Argentina didn't have "a start" as early as you mentioned. The definite national "organization" started at 1853, not when the Spaniards arrived.
As strange as it may sound, the fact that "making a living" in Argentina wasn't as hard as in Northeastern US or Australia partially explains the choices made by elites and the social structure and organization, with their implicit and explicit rules. Said differently, Argentina isn't the way it is DESPITE the natural resources at hand but BECAUSE OF the natural resources at hand.
It's long and complex to explain, and I'm afraid that you wouldn't be open enough to deserve my time and effort.
Andres