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Obama v mitt-very close:
[url]http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/us/general_election_romney_vs_obama-1171.html[/url]
Obama way head of the others in polling- jan 10th 2012:
[url]http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/elections/[/url]
The wall street journal is owned by the same folks who own fox-this is not the left in any way shape nor form:
[url]http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204124204577155112456593648.html?mod=WSJ_article_LatestHeadlines[/url]
Newt Ron Perry and the good old boys don't cotton to what real free market capitalism really is all about, making money with the limits provided by the law and whatever view of human decency one holds.
Even exxon123 has to be right once in a while: Mitt has problems with the base who can't handle the actually reality of free market capitalism. Exxon the mormon angle isn't the real problem as a whole can of worms opens as Newt and Ron Perry go lefty and attack Bain Capital and Mitt.
Does anyone have any real personal integrity or wli they say and do anything to get that nomination. Carolina will get interesting. In 1990, carl rove destroyed mccain lead in the polls by have telephone banks calling voter and asking them questions about their reactions to john mccaain's black love child-he adopted a pakastani orphan with a dark complexion. Someone told 100% bold face lies about mccaion's daughter to pull vote for W-the rest is history-mission accomplished! Will newt stoop so low as to attack mitt because he was a successful legitimate venture capitalist-the answer is yes!
The bumbling Obama hasn't started looking for the million dollar per year+ bonuses investment banking job yet-he may yet full off another 4 years after demonstrating an inability to negociate the corridors of power and chew gum at the same time.
So Ron Paul reminds me of the shaky deputy, otherwise, he makes the most sense. The rest are just lobbyists for the Wall St / Military Industrial crowd. And for most of the audience and even the press, they couldn't care less. They just wanted to hear what they wanted to hear. If americans learn to save, everyday would be X'mas day.
While the GOP candidates are doing their dead level best to kill each other in the primaries, YES Bob they will say anything to get elected, Obama merrily trips along cutting the military, increasing welfare and deciding the Constitution of the United States is not worth the paper it is written on with his recess appointments.
I know our left wing brothers on this board are gloating but when the 2012 elections roll around in November what exactly will Obama run on? You can bet your bottom dollar it will not be his record.
Add to this the thrashing Obama and his Justice Department lackey Erick Holder are about to receive from the Supreme Court this summer on ObamaCare, state immigration laws, redistricting, and a few other cases, I'm not sure he will be able to blame everyone else for his failures.
Obama's own words are already biting him in the ass now and the GOP is still involved in primaries, wait until they have a candidate and turn all that money and venom on the Anointed One. How ugly will it get this summer, pretty ugly.
I'm pretty sure Mitt will end up with the nomination so it will make for an interesting election cycle this year.
I have always admired Texas Governor Rick Perry, especially the last several years. He never ceases to amaze me with his complete lack of geopolitical knowledge and his inferior mental incapacity. His most recent gaffe, calling out Turkey as being "ruled by Islamist Terrorists" is his latest gem.
Wow. This moron needs to go back to the plains of Texas and stop embarrassing the Republican Party as in now.
[QUOTE=Moveon; 420568]I have always admired Texas Governor Rick Perry, especially the last several years. He never ceases to amaze me with his complete lack of geopolitical knowledge and his inferior mental incapacity. His most recent gaffe, calling out Turkey as being "ruled by Islamist Terrorists" is his latest gem.
Wow. This moron needs to go back to the plains of Texas and stop embarrassing the Republican Party as in now.[/QUOTE]I have always admired Barak Obama, especially the last several years. He never ceases to amaze me with his complete lack of knowledge of the free enterprise system and his inferior mental capacity. His most recent gaffe, asking to increase the debt ceiling by another 1.2 trillion dollars, is his latest gem.
Wow, this moron needs to go back to indonesia, where he was born, and stop embarrassing the Democratic Party
[QUOTE=Moveon; 420568]I have always admired Texas Governor Rick Perry, especially the last several years. He never ceases to amaze me with his complete lack of geopolitical knowledge and his inferior mental incapacity. His most recent gaffe, calling out Turkey as being "ruled by Islamist Terrorists" is his latest gem.
Wow. This moron needs to go back to the plains of Texas and stop embarrassing the Republican Party as in now.[/QUOTE]I thought the guy was interesting until I started looking into it. His release of his financials was the eye opener. Basically he has a government pension of a $100k a year. He owes $250k to Vanderbilt for his kid's education. I guess there is some family money from ranch land. My Dad's rule of thumb was never to listen to any guy with less money than yourself. I was thinking that Rick and I should sit down and have the money conversation.
As a Californian I think Texas is doing some great stuff economically but I am fairly sure it was not due to Perry's vision.
If this is not the stupidest thing Big Brother has done, I don't know what is.
Los Angeles is going to monitor XXX films, require the use of condoms in porn films and penalize those not using condoms.
As far as I can tell the LA porn industry probaby films a couple hundred sex scenes a day. Some with condoms some without condoms.
In private, probably hundreds of thousands (million??) of sex acts are performed daily. Some with condoms some without condoms.
But the Big Brother lovers ie advocates of unlimited government intrusion into our lifes and advocates of increasing taxes to fund this intrusion into our lifes, want to alocate valuable personal and money to police the couple of hundred sex acts performed daily by the porn industry.
I say, tell Nancy Pelosi to fund it out of her own pocket or, preferably force that ***** into the porn induistry and get fucked in the ass, every hour of every day for several years, by some Neandrathal with a 15 inch dick. Maybe then she will see the value of putting government back in its cage.
Unfortuneately, in this case, these regulations are probably advocated by the bird brain evangelical right. Who in their own way are just as moronic as the bird brain fanatical left.
[QUOTE=Big Boss Man; 420572]I thought the guy was interesting until I started looking into it. His release of his financials was the eye opener. Basically he has a government pension of a $100k a year. He owes $250k to Vanderbilt for his kid's education. I guess there is some family money from ranch land. My Dad's rule of thumb was never to listen to any guy with less money than yourself. I was thinking that Rick and I should sit down and have the money conversation.
As a Californian I think Texas is doing some great stuff economically but I am fairly sure it was not due to Perry's vision.[/QUOTE]Well, that's it for Mr. Outhouse himself, Governor Rick Perry.
No more SNL skits portraying his stupidity.
[QUOTE=Toymann;420462]It's a good thing we have all those free-thinking liberals out there like David33 forcasting how Romney just can't get the support of the GOP party. Time for a reality check dude. LMAO Toymann[/QUOTE]Not a free thinking liberal, just more intelligent than you are.
"Not a free thinking liberal, just more intelligent than you are"
Now that is a hot one. Intelligent liberal. Sure to rise to the top of the oxymoron charts along with jumbo shrimp, paid volunteer, slightly pregnant etc.
I think Albert Einstein got it right when he said that if you are not a liberal when you are 20 years old you have no heart. If you are still a liberal when you are 30 years old you have no brain
[QUOTE=El Alamo;420623]"Not a free thinking liberal, just more intelligent than you are"[/QUOTE]I was referring to the fact that Toymann started insulting me when I stated that Willard the Mormon Wienie had no chance of winning in South Carolina even with the help of his Mormon friend Huntsman's support. I was right, he was wrong, being liberal or conservative has nothing to do with it. If you read back, my problem was with a candidate who will put his church before his country. Not with the Republicans per se. I quite like the possibility of a Republican free love candidate winning.
It would make my day if the former Congressman and lobbyist, Newt Gingrich wins the GOP Presidential nomination!
That basically guarantees another term for President, Barack Obama.
[QUOTE=Exon123; 420625]Newt not only won last night, he kicked Mitt Romney's Ass, beat him by 12 % in a 4 man race, huge.
The American people with not stand for a Mormon President, that's why he lost so don't kid yourselves.
I'm "Privy" to information all of you are not, there's some "Big League Shit" going down in Salt Lake City.
Here's part of it.
[url]http://www.nowpublic.com/world/washingtons-birthday-letter-pres-obama-et-al[/url]
Here's more.
[url]http://world.einnews.com/pr_news/56849353/americans-united-against-fascist-theocratic-government.[/url]
Moreover, if you can't trust the FBI who can you trust.
[url]http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=15493695[/url]
Exon knows.
Exon[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Moveon; 420639]It would make my day if the former Congressman and lobbyist, Newt Gingrich wins the GOP Presidential nomination!
That basically guarantees another term for President, Barack Obama.[/QUOTE]That's what they used to say about Reagan, and look what happened.
As much as I am convinced Obama has no idea how a free enterprise economy functions, Obama is not all bad. I would have to close my eyes, hold my nose and be highly drugged or intoxicated to vote for Gringrich for President. Congressman or Senator. No problem. But President? Then again, maybe Gringrich is just what we need.
Obama: to make the tv speaches.
Mitt: to do the the policy analysis.
Carl rove: to control public opinion.
They could run the government with underlings:
Newt as court jester.
Rick santorum as ambassador to the dieties.
Rick perry to lead a commissioner in charge of dementia as the baby boomer age and there are few entitlements to help them in the later years, help for impoverished seniors will be a crutial compoment of contuing the american dream.
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The republican reply speech is boring-this guy should have rev wright help him punch-up his public speaking skills.
O-we could stroll into the future hand in hand-republican and democrat side by side mitch daniels he's the man, if he can't do it the ghost of abraham lincoln can.
There is a sad state to this union-both parties suck. I am going to watch: mr deeds comes to town on netflix. Maybe we can teach mitt to do a good jimmy stewart imitation?
Hate and prejudice aren't great qualities. Obama is slightly ahead of mitt, but Obama kills everyone else. I feel like el alamo, but not as strongly anti-Obama. Newt would make george W look like abraham lincoln.
[url]http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/president_obama_vs_republican_candidates.html[/url]
The following link is worth skimming. Rather than relying upon prejudice or a friend of a friend who has a mormon neighbor, factual info never hurts:
[url]http://www.pewforum.org/Christian/Mormon/mormons-in-america-executive-summary.aspx[/url]
It's interesting and look at some of the footnoted links. My own ignorance is surprising to me. Much of what I thought was so just is not part of current common mormon belief. Like many different groups there is a wide range of mormon points of view-but they tend to be extremely "socially" and politically conservative.
[QUOTE=Miami Bob; 420658]Hate and prejudice aren't great qualities. Obama is slightly ahead of mitt, but Obama kills everyone else. I feel like el alamo, but not as strongly anti-Obama. Newt would make george W look like abraham lincoln.
[url]http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/president_obama_vs_republican_candidates.html[/url][/QUOTE]No doubt the SC result was a bit of a shocker to most, BUT, Mitt is hardly done. In fact, As Bobby indicated, he is still far ahead of the other candidiates in the beat-obomanation factor. Did anyone really expect one candidtae to win all the primaries? Good old David33 is so capable that he has to live outside the US and Exon just can't get past his perception of his personal interactions in Utah back in the day. Lets not all forget that it took almost all 50 states for the dems to pick Obama over Hillary. Did that mean that 3 years ago the dems were a "fractured" party? LMAO. That's all I hear from the David33 types, just plain old media liberal speak. I don't doubt the Obama lovers like Dave and EX are praying for Newt to win the GOP. Newt has a much poorer chance of blowing out Obomanation like Romney certainly would. Time will tell what will transpire. Would either David33 or Ex be interested in a friendly bet on the GOP and Novemeber Presidential Elections. I am game to entertain a night at MaDAHOS based the outcomes. I'll take Romney wins the GOP and the GOP presidential elect beats Obomanation in November. I will also add a GOP controlled senate to the bet as a sweetner, if two bets might end up cancelling each other out! Any takers? Happy Mongering All. Toymann.
Ps. Been away fishing for almost two weeks in the caribean, so just getting caught up today.
[QUOTE=Exon123; 420664]After watching his speech last night the guy's "A Rock Star"
Exon[/QUOTE]Just what we need [i]'A Rock Star' as[/i] POTUS, [b]'Snake Oil Salesman'[/b] Would be more appropriate.
[QUOTE=Punter 127;420671]Just what we need [i]'A Rock Star' as[/i] POTUS, [b]'Snake Oil Salesman'[/b] Would be more appropriate.[/QUOTE]I think you are suffering from pussy overload, it's starting to affect your perspective. Once a day is enough.
[QUOTE=Toymann;420665]so just getting caught up today.[/QUOTE]Well get "caught up" with the fact that you were wrong, and I was right. Keep pushing your Wienie Willard. Keep calling me a liberal although I have never posted anything supporting Obama. We shall see who gets the nomination, notwithstanding Willard's buying off of Fox News, Florida media and everyone else he can get to. 75% of the Republicans appear to agree with me that he is a whining, spoiled Mormon fool and can't stand him. But keep supporting him "Dude", "birds of a feather flock together".
[QUOTE=Toymann;420665]Good old David33 is so capable that he has to live outside the US[/QUOTE]Is that supposed to be another of your well thought out insults? I suppose you are also referring to Jackson.
[QUOTE=El Alamo;420623]I think Albert Einstein got it right when he said that if you are not a liberal when you are 20 years old you have no heart. If you are still a liberal when you are 30 years old you have no brain[/QUOTE]Churchill made the famous statement about how aging turns good hearted liberals into hard headed conservatives. Of course Churchill was a war-mongering racist, who redeemed his very checkered political career with true courage and leadership in WWII.
Einstein was a pacifist who regretted the dawning of the nuclear age. He once described capitalist society, a source of evil and the "predatory phase of human development". Einstein supported socialism as an economic system. He was anticommunist who distrusted the bureaucratic and authoritarian excesses of the Soviet Union.
[QUOTE=David_33;420679]75% of the Republicans appear to agree with me that he is a whining, spoiled Mormon fool and can't stand him. But keep supporting him "Dude", "birds of a feather flock together".[/QUOTE]Where in the world did ya pull that out of? Please reveal your source, local paper in south america? LMAO. Better check out the amount of money Newt just got from his old buddy Vegas tycoon and then his wife (10M all together). I have no issue with politicians raising private money. I only bring this up in response to your comment about Romney buying "everything out". Really don't get your point so please elaborate.
I admit that SC was quite a last minute turn around for Newt. I take my hat off to him actually. The tactics he imployed in SC where obviously effective. In fact, he sounds a lot like Obomanation and the liberal media spin doctors. Success and wealth is bad! Business is bad! Yada Yada Yada. Class warfare at it's finest. Time will tell if Newt and his approach will win the day. I doubt it!
In lieu of your recent increased bravado, why not accept my friendly wager. Or do you feel too insulted to accept. You are taking this dialoug far to seriously David33. You appear to have quite thin skin. LOL. Kinda like most liberals I know.
As I mentioned before, as a result of your past comments, I am attempting to tone down my retoric. I would hate to destroy the board, kill the easter bunny, banish santa, yada, yada, yada.
As far as your political position goes. You have pitched your tent with the esteemed Exon. Like most liberals I know.
Still waiting for your response to my suggested wager (a friendly one). Try not to get your hair all up in a ball dude. It's all good. Happy Mongering All. Toymann.
Ps. If is walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and swims like a duck. MOST LIKELY IT"S A DUCK
[QUOTE=Toymann;420685]You have pitched your tent with the esteemed Exon. Like most liberals I know.[/QUOTE]Please quote ANY comment or post I have made which is in any way politically liberal.
My subjective opinion is that with your personal insults and antagonistic style you have already done more than most to chase away members and spoil the forum. You obviously have your issues. I have no interest in making a bet or having any kind of future dialog with you. You can call that being thin skinned, I call it having good taste.
Maybe you might save the forumn by making some chica posts. Oh. I forgot. Not really your thing. Over and out. Happy Mongering All. Toymann
No comments from the Exons and David33's. I guesse I am the only one watching TV tonight. SC was surprising but the end is beginning. Love the polls regarding Romney matching up with Obama. Not quite what Exon suggested. It is so early but based on what's coming up before Super Tuesday Mitt will be carrying quite a lead by then. Three years ago it took almost 50 states for the democrats to decide on Obomanation over Hillary and somehow they won the election. It won't take that long for the GOP to pick their man! All that liberal media spew about a fractured party will become inconsequential once Romney finished Newt. By my guesse it will be all over by mid-March. The far right may not be fully behind Mitt right now, BUT they would vote for Davis33 or Exon before they voted for Obomanation. Just like the dems 3 years ago the GOP will rally behind Mitt when push comes to shove. Obomanations record will sink him in the end. Happy Mongering All. Toymann
I only predicted South Carolina, fool. I was right and you were wrong. Also please re-post any liberal post or comment I have ever made on the forum. I'm still waiting to see that. From what I have observed, your practice of insulting other posters or ruining threads talking about your fishing prowess or some other off topic subject is despised by most forum members. We can only hope that Jackson gives you the Nibu Rafael quarantine treatment which you so richly deserve. Maybe he could put up a poll on this subject: "should Toymann be given and restricted to, his own thread".
[QUOTE=Toymann;420754]No comments from the Exons and David33's. I guesse I am the only one watching TV tonight. SC was surprising but the end is beginning. Love the polls regarding Romney matching up with Obama. Not quite what Exon suggested. It is so early but based on what's coming up before Super Tuesday Mitt will be carrying quite a lead by then. Three years ago it took almost 50 states for the democrats to decide on Obomanation over Hillary and somehow they won the election. It won't take that long for the GOP to pick their man! All that liberal media spew about a fractured party will become inconsequential once Romney finished Newt. By my guesse it will be all over by mid-March. The far right may not be fully behind Mitt right now, BUT they would vote for Davis33 or Exon before they voted for Obomanation. Just like the dems 3 years ago the GOP will rally behind Mitt when push comes to shove. Obomanations record will sink him in the end. Happy Mongering All. Toymann[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Toymann;420754]The far right may not be fully behind Mitt right now, BUT they would vote for Davis33 or Exon before they voted for Obomanation. Just like the dems 3 years ago the GOP will rally behind Mitt when push comes to shove. Obomanations record will sink him in the end. Happy Mongering All. Toymann[/QUOTE]After outspending Gingrich more than $12 to $1 with even more money spent by his secret corporate SuperPacs, Mitt lost 53% against him to 47% for.
Evangelists, who are a huge portion of what you call the far right, will sooner vote for a black Christian with the middle name Hussien, than for a Mormon. They will vote as usual in large numbers in 2012 and skip the top of the ticket if the Rs go with Mitt!
I have been saying for over a year that Obama can't get re-elected!
And then I added, but the Rs could lose.
I didn't dream they would make it so easy for POTUS.
[QUOTE=David_33;420756]Also please re-post any liberal post or comment I have ever made on the forum. I'm still waiting to see that. ".[/QUOTE]So you're bizzare comment about Romney following some Mormon agenda to destroy america if elected wasn't just ignorant but also NOT liberal. Ok. I get it now. Walks like a duck, quaks like a duck, swims like a duck. Must be a duck. Good think you don't live in the US and won't have to endure the Romney mormon agenda once he gets elected. As far as all your other dibble goes. Very passive agressive behavior. Hmmm. More duck like behavior. Happy Mongering All. Toymann.
Ps. So now you speak for the forumn do you. IALOTFLMAO
PPs. Maybe YOU should stick to the topic being discussed and stop making all the insulting comments. Glass house dude.
I am not a genius, but the 2012 presidential election is a foregone conclusion. Basically we have Obama who has demonstrated his total lack of knowledge of free market economies to such an extent that he has eclispsed the incompetence of Jimmy Carter. Then we have Romney, who is being criticized for his understanding of free market economies and his track record of success in free market economies.
Criticizing Romney for his business success and rewarding Obama for his economic incompetence would be similar to benching Tom Brady or Eli Manning because they win ballgames and playing a blind quadaplegic I. E. Obama because he will never, repeat never, win a ballgame.
Read it and weep. It is a done deal.
[QUOTE=El Alamo;420762]I am not a genius, but the 2012 presidential election is a foregone conclusion.[/QUOTE]To call this race a foregone conclusion is reaching a bit. The RCP average has Obama with a 2. 3% lead over Romney, which has been the trend over the last 3 months, more or less. And this is with Obama doing almost zero campaigning. It's going to be an interesting, close race, no doubt. But if you think Romney is going to waltz into the White House, you're dreaming.
[QUOTE=El Alamo; 420762]I am not a genius, but the 2012 presidential election is a foregone conclusion. Basically we have Obama who has demonstrated his total lack of knowledge of free market economies to such an extent that he has eclispsed the incompetence of Jimmy Carter. Then we have Romney, who is being criticized for his understanding of free market economies and his track record of success in free market economies.
Criticizing Romney for his business success and rewarding Obama for his economic incompetence would be similar to benching Tom Brady or Eli Manning because they win ballgames and playing a blind quadaplegic I. E. Obama because he will never, repeat never, win a ballgame.
Read it and weep. It is a done deal.[/QUOTE]I take you are willing to give 10-1 odds. I will bet $100.
[quote=A Political Guru]Circa 2008.
[QUOTE=El Alamo; 391623]This election may be decided by events on the day of the election or the day before the election.
In 1980 the race between Carter and Reagan was considered to be a dead heat. But on the morning of the election the news was filled with something the Iranians were doing with the American hostages (street demonstration or something like that) It was the only newsworthy topic that day.
Reagan won by a landslide because the voting public realized, seeing the carnage on the news reports, that Carter was incapable of handling foreign affairs.
In 2004 there was the last minute Bin Ladin (sp? Tape.
This year, a meltdown in the stock markets on the day before the election or the day of the election, could seal this for Obama. If not, this might be a closer election than some think.[/QUOTE]2012.
[QUOTE=El Alamo; 420762]I am not a genius, but the 2012 presidential election is a foregone conclusion. Basically we have Obama who has demonstrated his total lack of knowledge of free market economies to such an extent that he has eclispsed the incompetence of Jimmy Carter. Then we have Romney, who is being criticized for his understanding of free market economies and his track record of success in free market economies.
Criticizing Romney for his business success and rewarding Obama for his economic incompetence would be similar to benching Tom Brady or Eli Manning because they win ballgames and playing a blind quadaplegic I. E. Obama because he will never, repeat never, win a ballgame.
Read it and weep. It is a done deal.[/QUOTE][/quote]Perhaps not a genius but a Political Guru, he was right before. :)
I have been on a losing streak with my soccer and football picks. El Alamo could easily be on the money again, but I have nothing to lose (except $100). He does not have to go in alone, I think he could easily get a consortium within AP to back this wager.
So what.
Who's Snooky going to endorse?
I think that if the election is between the Mormon Willard and Obama, that Obama will win. This is an evaluation such as I made for the South Carolina Republican Primary, and has nothing to do with my political views, just the way I think that things will go. If the Republicans get it together and nominate someone other than Romney they could still beat Obama, but if they stick with Romney they will lose.
Sad but true, millions of Americans suffer from a disorder called ODS (Obama Derangement Syndrome). Including some of our very own posters here.
ODS is characterized by a fundamental belief that Barack Obama is the cause of all problems in the USA. That Obama can do no right, and that everything he does is wrong.
Facts do not stand in the way of a person suffering from ODS. When presented with facts, one of two responses is generally elicited:
(i) The facts are countered by an argument that is loosely based in reality, usually derived from repeated exposure to programming and messaging that creates an illusion of truth.
(ii) The facts are willfully ignored as the person changes the topic back to their anti-Obama narrative, fueled by uncontrollable firing of diseased synaptic connections.
It is a very difficult disorder to cure. What we do know is ODS is more common in people from the South, people with less education, people who watch more than 1 hour of Fox News a day, and older white men. Falling in just 2 of these categories puts the odds of having or developing ODS at 70%.
[QUOTE=Esten; 420829]Sad but true, millions of Americans suffer from a disorder called ODS (Obama Derangement Syndrome). Including some of our very own posters here.
ODS is characterized by a fundamental belief that Barack Obama is the cause of all problems in the USA. That Obama can do no right, and that everything he does is wrong.
Facts do not stand in the way of a person suffering from ODS. When presented with facts, one of two responses is generally elicited:
(I) The facts are countered by an argument that is loosely based in reality, usually derived from repeated exposure to programming and messaging that creates an illusion of truth.
(ii) The facts are willfully ignored as the person changes the topic back to their anti-Obama narrative, fueled by uncontrollable firing of diseased synaptic connections.
It is a very difficult disorder to cure. What we do know is ODS is more common in people from the South, people with less education, people who watch more than 1 hour of Fox News a day, and older white men. Falling in just 2 of these categories puts the odds of having or developing ODS at 70.[/QUOTE]Not to be confused with its sister ailment, OIOS: Obama Is Our Savior syndrome which tends to occur in Americans who believe that welfare payments cure all evils, that all wealth should be evenly (read: fairly) distributed and tends to occur in those who have never owned a business or been responsible for making payroll.