Argentine Economy

The Paso has to come down, to be in a reasonable level with Ar major trading partners, especial Brazil. Otherwise Brazil's products will be cheap in Ar, while Ar products will be expensive in Brazil. It does not matter, who is in power, the peso cannot stay too strong against Ar major trading partners, for long. The K's want to use protectionism, but that's going to cause more harm then good. The best thing would be to let the peso float downwards, until it hits a level where trade between Ar and Brazil hits a normal level.

By seizing the pension, the Ks can keep spending high, until after the October 2009 elections, so they can keep their supporters happy, and keep control of Congress.

Also by seizing the pension, they have enough funds to avoid defaulting through 2009.

Expect the Peso to weaken, and unemployment to go up. But a 2001 collapse will probably not happen until after Ar defaults again, which might not happen until 2010 or 11.

This is from economicnews. Ca.

[QUOTE]10/23/08 03:08 pm (EST)

(CEP News) - Argentina's plan to nationalize pension funds will ensure it can meet debt obligations through 2009 but will have disastrous long-term consequences for foreign investment. Argentine President Christina Fernandez revealed plans to nationalize the social security system on Tuesday, sending the Merval stocks exchange on a 20% dive and pushing bond yields toward 30%.

The nearly US$30 billion pension grab will ensure the country can fund its near-term obligations but will reinforce Argentina's status as an international pariah, according to Salvador Moreno, economist at ING in Mexico City.

"They are confiscating private property," Moreno said. "The long-term implications are devastating to the reestablishment of capital markets."

Moreno estimates Argentina has US$22 billion in maturing debt in 2009. It should be able to fund these obligations through the pension returns, an estimated US$9 billion surplus and cash reserves.

"It is clear that the government would not have difficulties to rollover interest and amortizations coming due in the next few years," Moreno said.

Afterwards, the situation becomes increasingly murky. The credit crisis and lower agricultural prices are expected to weigh on government revenues. Economic growth is also expected to slow.

Argentina has averaged 8.8% growth in the five years following its 2001 default but Morgan Stanley recently revised its estimates to account for weaker commodity prices and rising risk premiums. They expect 5.3% growth this year and between 2.0% and -0.5% in 2009.

With growth slowing in Argentina, tax revenues will shrink and the government will need to tap the international lending market. But Argentina's recent default and its dismal record force it to borrow at extremely prohibitive rates.

Moreno said the nationalization of the pension will dissuade all types of foreign investment.

"They are creating panic. The rules of the game have changed," he said. "They are going to a closed economic model, you have to compare it to Russia."

By Adam Button, [email]abutton@economicnews. Ca[/email], edited by Stephen Huebl, [email]shuebl@economicnews. Ca[/email]

CEP Newswires - CEP News? 2008. All Rights Reserved. [url]www.economicnews.ca[/url]

The Copying, Broadcast, Republication or Redistribution of CEP News Content is Expressly Prohibited Without the Prior Written Consent of CEP News.[/QUOTE]

Put / calls closed at the lows again failing to indicate any fear at all. Telling sign that we are going lower and dragging everyone with us.

[url]http://www.cboe.com/data/IntraDayVol.aspx[/url]

This is the only indicator out there that says the bottom is far from in

[QUOTE=Sidney]Many of our friends know him. You, possibly? If he chooses, he will post. Concerning, ''never trust a Portena''. All of my experiences verify this! Every businessman that I know, verifies this! For 3 years, I have had the same landlord. He semed very honest. But on 2 recent occasions, he really tried to ''rip'' me. Many men have had negative real estate problems. The concept of ''repeat business'' is not observed in AR. Some have described AR as a ''cheating society''! A really sad commentary on AR. Concerning stupid, funny but I have little experience except with young people at El Alamo. Universally, they seem stupid! Concerning Lysander's joke, I have much empathy for the joke. Largely, I agree with your comments, El Queso.[/QUOTE]This being a mongering board, I naturally assumed that when said "never trust a portena" you were refering to porteñas (I. E. Females born and bred in BA) in particular and not to porteños in general. In fact you were referring to the somewhat unbusinesslike behavour of some BA bar owners and other small business owners in this city. Well I can't comment on that. I don't run a business here. As far as Porteñas are concerned, I have not found them to be particularly untrustworthy. Like city girls everywhere, they are probably a bit more streetwise and mercenary than their country cousins. Maybe that is why, when it comes to mongering, I tend to prefer girls from the provinces or from Paraguay.

Coming back to the joke about Argentina being full of Argentinians, you still don't get it do you? It is not a statement of fact. It is supposed to be ironic and self mocking. And by the way, I don't agree with the statement anyway. I came here because I already had Argentinian friends who suggested it, and I wanted to meet more people like them. The chicas were a bonus I found out about some time after I first arrived. Outside the world of mongering, I find Argentinians in general to be intelligent, charming, generous and self-aware, although not sure I would like to run a small business here.

[QUOTE=Lysander]This being a mongering board, I naturally assumed that when said "never trust a portena" you were refering to porteñas (I. E. Females born and bred in BA) in particular and not to porteños in general. In fact you were referring to the somewhat unbusinesslike behavour of some BA bar owners and other small business owners in this city. Well I can't comment on that. I don't run a business here. As far as Porteñas are concerned, I have not found them to be particularly untrustworthy. Like city girls everywhere, they are probably a bit more streetwise and mercenary than their country cousins. Maybe that is why, when it comes to mongering, I tend to prefer girls from the provinces or from Paraguay.

Coming back to the joke about Argentina being full of Argentinians, you still don't get it do you? It is not a statement of fact. It is supposed to be ironic and self mocking. And by the way, I don't agree with the statement anyway. I came here because I already had Argentinian friends who suggested it, and I wanted to meet more people like them. The chicas were a bonus I found out about some time after I first arrived. Outside the world of mongering, I find Argentinians in general to be intelligent, charming, generous and self-aware, although not sure I would like to run a small business here.[/QUOTE]I agree with Lysander 200% on each every word quoted above by him. I have been interacting with South American people in general since the early 90's. I have always found them very warm, friendly, helpful. As far I am concerned, after traveling over 100 countries in last 20 years, I rate South America as my favorite continent in the world and Argentina among my top 5 favorite countries.

Like Lysander, I have no clue about the business ethics of South Americans and I don't plan to start any business in South America in near future, not till I master the local language which will take time in my case.

Regarding, Argentinians, two months plus interaction with them was absolutely fantastic (say this strictly on a non-mongering level) In fact, I was so impressed that I am thinking of living in Argentina full time. The reasons for this is not influenced by the chicas but the whole country & the local people in general.

I made some very nice Argentinan friends during my stay in BA and was amazed by their hospitality.

Yes, the so called BA girls (Portenas) do have some attitude but I take it in my stride because I have seen this attitude typical of big city girls.

[QUOTE=El Queso]Th I would say that there are many fairly well educated people here in Argentina who do indeed feel that way about their country. My programmers, all of them, are currently, or have recently, looked to immigrate to other countries because they can't stand the way their own people and government behave.[/QUOTE][QUOTE=Sidney]The concept of ''repeat business'' is not observed in AR. Some have described AR as a ''cheating society''! A really sad commentary on AR. Concerning stupid, funny but I have little experience except with young people at El Alamo. Universally, they seem stupid! Concerning Lysander's joke, I have much empathy for the joke. Largely, I agree with your comments, El Queso.[/QUOTE]Every country in the world has its vices & plus points. That is why people are always emigrating out & immigrating in many of the popular well known countries of the world.

Like, some Argentines want to emigrate out for financial security, many average middle class guys from first world countries, immigrated to Argentina or enter as tourists to have the best value for their dollar or euro or pound which perhaps they won't get in their own country & lead a luxurious life which perhaps they will not get in their own country.

The whole point is that every country has its set of patriots and it set of self bred, self-groomed hardened critics. Just because some of the citizens evolve as critics and express their views to expats, doesn't mean the country is full of Jokers. Just because, some locals want to emigrate out does not mean, the country lacks self-sustenance. Just because the country's economy is reeling because of a world wide recession doesn't mean, the country is bull shit.

As far as the self bred country's critics goes :-

"The question is NEVER what the country has done for you, the question is ALWAYS is what YOU have done for YOUR country!"

I always quote the above whenever I meet some pathetic person abusing his own country.It starts with first abusing your own country, then your family and finally abusing yourself. I guess, the world is full of losers like this but no country in this world is answerable to a bunch of losers.

Finally, its a matter of shame that certain expats live in this country, do business in this country, enjoy the privileges of this country without paying any taxes like a common citizen , fuck pretty girls, the class of whom they can't dream of in their own country and still continue to abuse the host country & its population on a regular basis on public forums !!! Its apalling, to see their moral ethics! Pardon me for saying this, but it does reflect on such expat's upbringing, background, personality and morality.

[QUOTE=Rock Harders]Mongers-

Actually I believe Sidney is attributing this quote to me, as I have said it many times and I do believe it when it comes to all money and business related manners. However, I am not the original author of the quote, as credit for that belongs to my former boss here in Argentina. I can honestly state that I probably have more experience dealing with Argentine business practices over the past 3 years than almost anyone on this board and I find that this quote holds true time and time again. Bars, restaurants, clubs, and shops all are retarded when it comes to doing business; they believe in "one timing", the customer, sucking as much money as possible out of the customer with no regard to whether he will come back and build a long lasting business relationship. They would prefer to "skimp" on product, and overcharge for said skimpy product, than to provide a well-sized product and sell it at a modest profit.

The same holds true for Argentine employees, by and large, although there are of course exceptions, those that buy into the "Western" idea of business. The majority of my Argentine employees still, after 2.5 years, do not understand our primary concept and promotion that has been wildly successful up to this point. They just cannot understand that giving somebody a great deal will cause them to return time and time again and in the long run much more money is earned and the free word of mouth publicity gained from this practice brings a never ending stream of clients.

Actually, the stupidest of the stupid here are probably the majority of bar owners in Buenos Aires. On three separate occaisons, my business was shut down by the government for periods ranging from 45, to 17, to 7 days. Each and every time we reopened, the place was packed to capacity within an hour or two of reopening. Even though there are half a dozen competitors in the neighborhood, all but one is almost always empty, and not a single one thought to try to steal our customers through copying our promotions or business model while we were shut down. In the USA, the minute a promotion or new idea works, every bar within a 50 mile radius is copying the promotion or idea. This all because when it comes to business and money matters "Argies are so stupid, they don't know they're stupid".

Suerte,

Rock Harders[/QUOTE]I don't know the working side of a bar but in my industry, buying second-hand goods and exporting, exactly the same scenario occurs, with me the customer of 18 years' being treated as just another person to f u c k over when the opportunity arises. No sense at all of building a long term relationship or of even fostering a sound relationship. Dudding of stock, lying as a matter of course, cheating and substituting when it comes to delivery are just standard procedure.

I have a different slant with the merchants in regard to their ability to learn what is good in business. Those of us that live and work here will be all too familiar with the sameness of product that is on offer. Be it food, services, manufactured goods and packaged travel. There is almost no choice and this is not a new phenomena. With household goods such as furniture and decorative goods, almost all households have the same items. There have been since the 1930's 4 styles; Louis XV, Louis XVI, French Provencial and in the 60's, Americano. On the occasions when I am called into a house, the goods are all of such a sameness you could bet on what is available to buy. There is rarely a surprise to be seen. So, bar-owners being an exception, I have to presume that the businesses producing all other goods and services are very good at copying what is most marketable.

Argento

[QUOTE=Sidney]I get it--they are sick of each other. I am sick of their rude behavion. As is common knowlege--they are most pedjudicial, they don't like each other, are totally not trustworthy, and stupid![/QUOTE]I think perhaps you meant "prejudiced" - something else to add to the list of things you don't like about Porteños. "Prejudiced" might perhaps be a word that would be better applied to your attitude to the people here. I take it then that you are not planning to come back here again if you can help it.

I'm glad it was finally cleared up that it's "porteño", as for a long time as I was reading this thread I was wondering what the rest of a joke about not trusting an Argentine girl was about. One letter makes a huge difference.

In my own industry, which I won't name, but is not the service industry or import / export, I have seen exactly the same problem with the Argentines ("porteños" - Sidney please note that's the masculine plural, though as such can stand for men and women both) the concept of repeat business with a customer doesn't really exist. With each new company I dealt with, there was the initial façade of appearing to do business just like in America, but this lack of understanding in how to manage a customer relationship always became apparent eventually.

Now, I understand this phenomenon well and am always aware of it in any dealings with Argentines.

The premise from wich I'll start is this: "INTELLIGENCE IS NOT EQUAL TO MONEY".

Anyone not accepting this (because he considers that yes, intelligence IT IS equivalent to money) don't waste his time in going on. The ones that don't know what the word premise, or equivalent means can consult Aristotle's Logic, where it is spoken largerly about the theme, or in the Wikipedia, where it is spoken briefly (it's a pity Wikipedia, that great north american invention, didn't exist in Plato's or Aristotle's times. The "Metaphysics" would have been summarized in 100 or 150 lines, perhaps. And Plato's "Phaedro" in 2 or 3. Imagine all the time this two man would have gained for their's families, or for eating hamburguers)

If anyone don't know the meaning of intelligence, well, now we would be in deepest waters.

Then, accepting that intelligence would not be equivalent to money, we can infer that having intelligence would not be the same as having money. One can be rich for having born in a rich country, or simply for having born from a wealthy father and be a perfect asshole believing himself the smartest guy in the world. And not only that, believing himself he can teach other guys, even other countries, even the whole humanity how to be. Or how to "make" money, at least.

Oops! How near we are now to the reversing of the subject in the famous statement "stupids that don't know they're stupid". We're not sure of whom we are speaking about, now.

But let's continue.

So, if having money doesn't mean necessary you have the brains to create it, it's very probably that people who had brains had dedicated, his time and his skilfulness, all along history, to create other kind of things more important than money. In the Middle Ages the richest man of the community usually was a prestamist. Who never do nothing except work with other people's money. The constructors of cathedrals, the philosophers, the great discoverers usually were poor. Cristobal Colon was broken when he convinced Queen Isabel de Castilla to pawn all his jewells (to a prestamist, of course) to finance a trip nobody was very sure where.

Being in the possession of a lot of money, has been largerly prooved all along history, and by history itself, differs more and more from the concept of intelligence. From what intelligence really is. If not, in wich other way we can explain the Industrial Revolution? Was that a product of intelligence (in the greek, pure, clear meaning of the term: the highest faculty of the human being, the one that distinguish us from beasts) with his 12 year old kids dying in the coal mines of England, the cruel explotation of Africa, only for the purpose of providing slaves to the plantations of the Antillas but most of all of North America? If someone considers that intelligence, I'm sorry but there's some important part of his brain that doesn't work well. Though things didn't end there. They continue. Getting worse each time. In the name of capitalism and his wrongly called intelligence the Rich Guys, the Big Fishes of Society devastated the globe, ransacked the forests, polluted the air and the rivers, extinguished 80% of the animal species that existed until the last century. Only for money. So that the Megacorporatives that nowadays rule the world gets richer and richer.

O. K. That's power.

But don't tell me it's intelligence.

I rather called it stupidity. The same kind of stupidity that has people who considers the invasion of Irak an act of pure love for the humanity, not a megamillionar affair. Or that Cuba needed to be commercially punished along decades only because they have to be protected from comunism. Or that each South American president the White House didn't like they had the right to be moved or changed by the C. I. A. As it were a puppet. Usually it's the same kind of people that moves around the globe wherever the fluctuation of the dollar calls them. But moving like inside a bubble, a big bubble never mixing with the people of the country they are in, indiferent and waterproof to any other culture or any other way of living but his own. Though critizising, yes, everything and everybody because they believe they have the right to do so, because they are intelligent. They are The Smartest Guys in the world.

We Argentines know very well wich are our faults. Wich are not, very probably, the ones the Smartest Guys think they are. But we know when and from whom accept the critics. A critic must be humble, if it really want to be a critic. A critic with arrogance is not a critic, is a declaration of superiority. A critic that looks to submit for his own profit. That kind of critic is not accepted. And I particulary don't think would be accepted any place in the world. What is the value of a critic like that? Is there anything else you can do but laugh in the very face of the criticizer?

Since I entered this forum for the very first time, that was more or less two years ago, I've been reading predictions announcing the proximity or the Apocalypse, banks confiscating deposits, a dollar at 5, 6, or even 10 pesos, even a blood bath that would cover the Nation. Nothing of that has happened. Nothing of that has much probabilities to happen, at least in the near future. Perhaps the dollar will get a little higher. But not too higher. The situation of the country is not the same as in the 2001, internal and external, and not even then have been "a blod bath" anywhere. What could happen, anyway, would only be the side effect of what already happened in the north, where the real landslide occur. And, I'm affraid, will continue to "occur" for a long time. There, there were banks confiscating deposits, yes, people who lose all that they had. There, the State had to take up, not to save the poor but to save the rich ones, as usual. The Smart Guys. The BIg Fishes that knew how to rule the world. The intelligents.

So, my friends, next time you hear the famous statement "stupids that don't know they're stupid", ask yourselves of who are we really talking about?

Am a new kid on the block here, but cannot understand what the fuck purpose all this "stupid. Name calling" is about. I find it offensive. For sure, no choir boy concerning ethnic stuff, but this shit is childish. On any given day and with the right circumstance, we all can get quite stupid very quickly. Amazing what we are capable of sometimes and this "stupid this and stupid that" is a fine example. Lighten up, the world is screwed up enough. Be happy, make some money and fuck. Life is too dam short.

[QUOTE=Julio]The premise from wich I'll start is this: "INTELLIGENCE IS NOT EQUAL TO MONEY".

So, my friends, next time you hear the famous statement "stupids that don't know they're stupid", ask yourselves of who are we really talking about?[/QUOTE]The answer is those absolutely rusted-on Argentinos who simply are so "Bolshi" about the United States, that they have the temerity to write the sort of bunkem the rest of your post was about. Not looking at anyone in particular. The fact is it is only this week, Queen Kirchner made the decision to pinch the investments of the private superannuation funds. Still got to get it through Congress but it is a not a bad effort to divert 30 billion of someone else's money to your advantage without even saying please or to thank them for being f u c k e d up the arse by the powers that be. And then to proffer the reason that it is to protect the beneficiaries. Julio, just how gullible are you? These private funds became popular as a way to guarantee that their money wouldn't be stolen.

My opinion is that there will be pain in the USA over this collapse and possibly for 4 or 5 years, but without doubt the pain here will be greater and more devastating, more the pity. I was told nearly 20 years ago by an Argentinian that the philosophy and state of affairs in Argentina would never change. I disagreed at the time but I have come to the conclusion she was right.

Argento

[QUOTE=Argento]Julio, just how gullible are you?

Argento[/QUOTE]The irony is that Julio, apparently, doesn't know what he doesn't know.

[QUOTE=Darkme]The irony is that Julio, apparently, doesn't know what he doesn't know.[/QUOTE]The Human Condition. Experienced by one and all.

[QUOTE=Captain]Finally, its a matter of shame that certain expats live in this country, do business in this country, enjoy the privileges of this country without paying any taxes like a common citizen, fuck pretty girls, the class of whom they can't dream of in their own country and still continue to abuse the host country & its population on a regular basis on public forums! Its apalling, to see their moral ethics! Pardon me for saying this, but it does reflect on such expat's upbringing, background, personality and morality.[/QUOTE]

I think you may have gone a little too far on this one, man.

First, we don't make money from any Argentine source, so where is our responsibility to pay income taxes? There is none. We are not citizens, and therefore cannot vote and participate in the laws that they make.

Second, everytime we buy something, we pay VAT. To the tune of 20% (in the state where I come from in the US, we have a similar tax of 8.5% on purchases) Where does that go, to the store owners? No, it goes to the government. What the hell do you mena we don't pay taxes? And because we have more moeny than many locals, we pay more in such taxes.

I pay directly for my health insurance. Many people here would get free or partially subsidized health care FROM THEIR INCOME TAXES. Since I don't pay income taxes, I pay for my health insurance directly. The government takes 19% from employees and 40% from businesses for each employee's salary. Some of that can be used by the employee to help pay for private health care (which, btw, I think is a great idea)

When I don't have a job any more in the States, I won't have any more money coming in. The government here surely isn't going to put me on the Dole or require some poor company here to pay me for not having a job, because I'm not a citizen and I don't pay income taxes. But the government here requires businesses to pay 1 month of salary for every year worked by that employee, even if the reason the doors are closing is because they can't make enough money to stay opened.

So on top of heavy taxes imposed on companies and individuals, the government doesn't pay people to be unemployed anyway, like many other countries where such heavy burdens are incurred.

I would be willing to bet that most people who own a business here, no matter how big or small, feels pretty bad about the heavy burden placed on them. Most employees don't - they like being able to know that they have a parachute pretty much no matter how they act on their job.

I am employing Argentine citizens, and pay them roughly 30% better than most Argentine companies pay their employees including their benefits. I'm not contributing anything here? I think my employees would really beg to differ with you.

I'm not sure that you really know enough to make some of the commetns you have. I could be wrong. I just don't remember you posting, or discussing at night in the bar, things about trying to actually live here, as in getting services, completing tramites, buying large ticket items, etc.

Where many of us come from, people are above-board and try to make things work as well as possible. That's our upbringing. We like living here for various reasons, but in the search for improvement, we are bitching about the same things that many Argentinos (at least the ones that I know) ***** about as well, they arejust not as vocal as we are.

All of the expats that I know who live down here pay taxes via VAT. Many of the expats I know who live here contribute in some fashion to Argentina, be it by employing someone, marrying someone and living nicely with them and their family, or what have you, not to mention contributing to VAT.

This idea that if you ***** about the way the worst of a country is that you should shut up or go home, or that you are immoral or have bad upbringing, is assinine.

[QUOTE=Sidney]Surely, you must understand that many of us are critical of the USA? Few have been more critical than me of Bush, Congress, Greenspan, Paulson and Bernanke, policians, Wall Street, and others.[/QUOTE]Right on brother Sid!

Too many people don't understand that we ***** about EVERYTHING! It's one of the ways that our country improves.

And Julio, I'm sorry, but the fact is that MOST of the POOR in the US live better lives than many of those who could be considered to be lower middle class in many parts of South America, Argentina included. This is something I know first hand, m having lived very poor in my early years, in slums in Houston. I know what we had, and I know what people better off have.

The point many of us are trying to make here is not that we are SMARTER than anyone here, although admittedly some use pretty strong language and tend to lump too many people into one basket.

The point we try to make is that the system we employee in the States gives even the most average of us the ability to advance, where one really has to fight to advance in many other systems in the rest of the world.

The rich here have a good life. The poor ride busses in to the city from far enough out that they can afford to live in a shack in a dirty, unkempt community with a commute of two or more hours or they live in tiny "hotels" with no ventilation, unpainted wals, cracked bricks, etc, so they can work in construction, or as a maid, or any other menial task because labor here is so cheap, be treated like a dog by their "employers", and return with a few pesos in their pocket at the end of the day.

If you are not concerned about having as many people living in a reasonaby comfortable existence, then there can be no argument.

[QUOTE=El Queso]And Julio, I'm sorry, but the fact is that MOST of the POOR in the US live better lives than many of those who could be considered to be lower middle class in many parts of South America, Argentina included. [/QUOTE]No, I think you didn't understand the oppositions I outlined. It isn't a question of nationalities. The oppositions I outlined are between the ones who followed the Market Capitalism as a religion, whatever their nationalities, though we all now where are concentrated the most, and the ones who suffered that. The last ones, we considered enough suffering to have beared that stupid religion over more than a century for now, when all their faults are put in evidence and the skyscraper crumble over our heads, must be obligued to hear their supporters, the supporters of the losing team, teach us "how things has to be".

That's the real axis of the conflict I outlined. A question of who has the moral authority to speak now. Not the ones who has brought us all to this, for sure. It isn't an economic problem. It's a moral problem which I'm talking about.

Than you.

[QUOTE=Julio]No, I think you didn't understand the oppositions I outlined. It isn't a question of nationalities. The oppositions I outlined are between the ones who followed the Market Capitalism as a religion, whatever their nationalities, though we all now where are concentrated the most, and the ones who suffered that. The last ones, we considered enough suffering to have beared that stupid religion over more than a century for now, when all their faults are put in evidence and the skyscraper crumble over our heads, must be obligued to hear their supporters, the supporters of the losing team, teach us "how things has to be".

That's the real axis of the conflict I outlined. A question of who has the moral authority to speak now. Not the ones who has brought us all to this, for sure. It isn't an economic problem. It's a moral problem which I'm talking about.

Than you.[/QUOTE]Morality? Economics? Argentina? In one paragraph? Surely it's a typo?

Argento

Enough said. I nominate this post for the "Post of the Decade". We need a new poll. LOL.

Happy Mongering All,

Toymann

[QUOTE=Captain]Finally, its a matter of shame that certain expats live in this country, do business in this country, enjoy the privileges of this country without paying any taxes like a common citizen, fuck pretty girls, the class of whom they can't dream of in their own country and still continue to abuse the host country & its population on a regular basis on public forums! Its apalling, to see their moral ethics! Pardon me for saying this, but it does reflect on such expat's upbringing, background, personality and morality.[/QUOTE]That's rich from a man who entices a cab driver to illegally transport him to the airport to save two dollars.

[QUOTE=Aqualung]That's rich from a man who entices a cab driver to illegally transport him to the airport to save two Dollars[/QUOTE]Ha ha! Entices? Illegally transport him? You are talking as if I put a gun on his head to transport me! Or I did not pay what he asked! Or he smuggled some illegal goods in the taxi!

Aqualung, do not contort the actuality of the events which transpired to forum members who may have recently joined. And who may not know that since the time of that report 2 weeks ago, you have been trying to pick on me, albeit unsuccessfully! ;-)

The truth is that the taxi driver was so happy chatting up with me during our journey to the airport that he even hugged me as we parted ways. He gave me many nice compliments on my generosity ( ha! I know this word will really mess you up!). He felt absolutely satisfied with his remuneration! He was impressed by all the nice compliments,I said about his country and the local people. That is where, it made all the difference. So, i fail to understand Aqualung, why your ass is itching so much since past 2 weeks regarding 2 dollars.

You don't understand what is the meaning of day to day to day economy, do you? Economizing expenditures is normal worldwide practice irrespective of whether you are a tourist or in your home city. You seem to find it funny/harsh/pathetic, so be it!

Gosh!! Aqualung, I think you have gone out of your mind dude, since my post on taxi services to the airport! I suggest you go consult a psychiatrist. You seem to be suffering from the reports we exchanged couple of weeks ago. Maybe, you are having disturbing nightmares.

My post on taxi services was just to advise newbies that its prudent to order from taxi eziza via telephone for going to the airport from city center than trying hailing on the road which can be slightly more expensive and tedious. And since then, you are cribbing about "my trying to save 2 dollars"! damn!! :-)

If you want to keep the "fight"/ exchange of nasty anecdotes on each other on a daily basis, I am game.

[QUOTE=El Queso]All of the expats that I know who live down here pay taxes via VAT. Many of the expats I know who live here contribute in some fashion to Argentina, be it by employing someone, marrying someone and living nicely with them and their family, or what have you, not to mention contributing to VAT.

This idea that if you ***** about the way the worst of a country is that you should shut up or go home, or that you are immoral or have bad upbringing, is assinine.[/QUOTE]El Queso, you are a buddy. Please do not take my posts so personally! You still owe me a warm-up house party!:-)

But coming back to our discussion (strictly on a friendly basis!) Do you honestly believe that you should not be paying income tax on the profits you make from a business set up in this country. Is the VAT, which BTW, any tom, dick and harry pays for anything he or she buys enough to substantiate for the taxes which you should pay to the Argentine government for using the infrastructure of Argentina.

Pardon me for saying so and I apologize a million times for this comment, do you honestly believe that a 50 yr old male does a favor to the local goverment by marrying a pretty albeit poor 25 year old girl for his sexual gratification? Are you serious? !!

[QUOTE=Panos]-------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is my first post here.

These are my predictions. USA and Europe will collapse causing massive unemployment and a total collapse of social security and most services ie health care, banking, travel and all we hold dear. There will be great social unrest and millions will be locked up in the USA.

There will be a postponement of the upcoming elections favouring the Republicans. They will win.

There will be massive wars in the next year and one major one between Russia and United States. Ukraine will be the Catalyst.

Iran will be attacked very very soon.

Argentina will be affected in the short term but in the long term will become one of the worlds most richest countries with millions trying to come here due to its perfect climate and soil that can sustain 10 times its current population. The southern part of South America will be where the New World will prosper and grow in a way that noone will believe now. This will happen within 3 years,

My predictions will all come true[/QUOTE]Who is this CockSucker?

Exon

[QUOTE=Exon123]Who is this CockSucker?

Exon[/QUOTE]Nostradamus or Vanga perhaps?

Regards,

BM

[QUOTE=Toymann]Enough said. I nominate this post for the "Post of the Decade". [/QUOTE]Excellent idea!

I suggest all of you to go to the airport, take the next plane to Los Angeles or any other place in the world, and began the arrangements for the ceremony as soon as posible.

[QUOTE=Julio]No, I think you didn't understand the oppositions I outlined. It isn't a question of nationalities. The oppositions I outlined are between the ones who followed the Market Capitalism as a religion, whatever their nationalities, though we all now where are concentrated the most, and the ones who suffered that.

[snip]

That's the real axis of the conflict I outlined. A question of who has the moral authority to speak now. Not the ones who has brought us all to this, for sure. It isn't an economic problem. It's a moral problem which I'm talking about.

Than you.[/QUOTE]Well, if market capitalism is what has you worked up, I suggest you be clear on what the alternative is. I think you also ought to be prepared to answer the uncomfortable question of what, exactly, has lifted so many out of poverty over the last several decades. Here's a hint, we have no better mechanism to organize resources than market capitalism. Sadly, Argentina has failed to learn the lesson.

As for moral high-ground, the capitalists have the alternatives beat as there has been no greater force known to mankind for unleashing the creative power of mans mind. Just look at the data [1]. Ask the Chinese and the Indians or the Irish. Each of which has seen an incredible explosion of wealth and increased standard of living over the last 20 years due to embarrassing capitalism. Argentina's failure to successfully embrace liberalism should not be laid at the feet of Argentina; full stop.

I'd suggest making a survey of classical liberal thought before falling into the trap of thinking that capitalism is to blame for Argentina's problems.

[1] [url]http://www.gapminder.org/fullscreen.php?file=GapminderMedia/GapTools/HDT05L/application.swf[/url]

[QUOTE=Captain]But coming back to our discussion (strictly on a friendly basis! Do you honestly believe that you should not be paying income tax on the profits you make from a business set up in this country.[/QUOTE]I did not set up a business in this country because the Argentino government would strangle it. I AM doing business here, but that is different than "setting up a business" here in Argentina. However, I know expats here who HAVE setup a business and are paying taxes directly to the government (along with bribes and other iditiotic things necessary to operate).

I pay two types of income taxes in the US! Why in fuck's name would I have to pay income taxes to Argentina? I'm not a resident, I am bringing money / jobs to Argentina, from the States for fuck's sake, not other locations in Argentina. I have a corporation in the States (who pays me) and it by god does business with foreign nationals (who it pays, FROM THE STATES) That corporation pays taxes and I pay taxes.

This is silly!

[QUOTE=Captain]Is the VAT, which BTW, any tom, dick and harry pays for anything he or she buys enough to substantiate for the taxes which you should pay to the Argentine government for using the infrastructure of Argentina.[/QUOTE]First, as to the VAT. Aside from the absolute waste and stealing done by the government (any government, you can include the US too, that's fine by me) of course that money is meant to be used on infrastructure and other things that every Tom Dick and Harry and myself uses. That's why it's a general tax and not a personal or corporate income tax.

Did I mention that I also pay the toll that pays for the highway that takes me to the house I live in? I pass two toll booths.

I pay the rent that the owner of the house I live in uses to pay his property taxes, which also pay for the overhead.

I also pay a maintenance fee in the neighborhood, which goes to paying guard's salaries (and improvements where I actually live) I pay a handyman to do work around the house (at his price) a gardner to take care of the yard (at his price) and a pool man to take care of the pool (at his price)

You still haven't given me a reason to pay income taxes in Argentina! I don't get subsidized by the government for one single thing. The other taxes I pay SHOULD go to infrastructure, but the amount of that that actually makes it to where it should go is directly proportional to the amount of corruption and greed in the system (again, the US is right in there with all the rest) This is silly!

My personal income comes from a US corporation, who in turn receives its income from US companies paying US Dollars to me for services my company renders to them.

Ok, as far as my personal income, you'll never convince me (nor probably a VERY large percentage of humantiy) that I should also be paying an Argentine income.

In fact, I believe that the Argentine government would agree with me.

This is from a personal standpoint.

[edited to remove private information]

[QUOTE=Captain]

Pardon me for saying so and I apologize a million times for this comment, do you honestly believe that a 50 yr old male does a favor to the local goverment by marrying a pretty albeit poor 25 year old girl for his sexual gratification? Are you serious?[/QUOTE]Captain, I'm sorry but to me your words are full ignorance and, intentional or not, full of personal bite.

First, very, very, very few men will marry a young girl for sexual gratification. I certainly didn't.

I'm not yet 50, but I'm a lot older than my wife. Yes, so the fuck what?

But to answer your question in the broadest sense, OF COURSE a 50 year old guy marrying a 25 year old poor woman does the local government a favor. And if he's a halfway decent guy and can afford it, more than just her directly. One less mouth to feed, one less person to worry about, one less possible statistic walking around in an unsavory way of life. Are you FUCKING KIDDING ME?

Now, if the man forced the girl to go to the marriage clerk with threat to the girl's family that he would kill them all if she didn't marry him, well, that's a BAD THING, obviously.

But if the girl is all for it? WTF dude? Do you want her to continue to have a shitty life, and always be close to the verge of the government having to take care of her? What world are you from?

Now, is there love? Very possibly so (in my case, there is no doubt. You can ask anyone who knows both me and my wife personally and I don't think you'd ever get a hesitation on that answer. You have never met my wife and don't have the priviledge of discussing my relationship with her as a result. But next time you are in town, perhaps a learning experience is in store for you - you can meet her and we'll even go to her family's house together;) but if there's not love and it is for "sexual gratification", I can tell you for sure that what the man will get from the relationship will be far worse than the girl.

Now, to get a little more personal since you brought it up, I'll talk a little about my situation.

I married a young Paraguayan. I have been to her family's home. I don't know if you can really imagine the actually poverty. I could be wrong, but from the way you've talked you haven't seen much of the truly shitty conditions in your own country (I have) much less the real poverty in South America (much less, I mean, for the region not being your own country) This is poverty that again, most poor people in the US and Europe (I should have included them earlier in my previous statement similar to this, previous post) wouldn't even be able to imagine.

I married her, and I am helping her family. I'm not giving them money, I'm investing in them and equipment that they need to do business, something most (all? South American governments wouldn't be bothered to do to support the poor in their own countries.

You want to talk about morals? You come here to South America, you stay in nice places, you hobnob with well-off Argentinos (maybe) who mostly don't have a clue really how their own maids and such live (but I do - I can expand on that if you care to get into it) and fuck all the pretty girls you talked about and don't pay taxes (except IVA / VAT) and don't contribute to the local job market and don't really do anything but spend tourist dollars?

Who are you to lecture us about morals, dude?

From where I sit, my little corner of the world (AND ALL OF THOSE WHO ARE WITHIN MY INFLUENCE, please realise) is doing a lot better then it was two years ago when I started my capitalist business.

I feel just fine about my morals. I also feel fine about capitilism.

[QUOTE=Captain]Ha ha! Entices? Illegally transport him? You are talking as if I put a gun on his head to transport me! Or I did not pay what he asked! Or he smuggled some illegal goods in the taxi!

Aqualung, do not contort the actuality of the events which transpired to forum members who may have recently joined. And who may not know that since the time of that report 2 weeks ago, you have been trying to pick on me, albeit unsuccessfully!;-)

The truth is that the taxi driver was so happy chatting up with me during our journey to the airport that he even hugged me as we parted ways. He gave me many nice compliments on my generosity (ha! I know this word will really mess you up! He felt absolutely satisfied with his remuneration! He was impressed by all the nice compliments, I said about his country and the local people. That is where, it made all the difference. So, I fail to understand Aqualung, why your ass is itching so much since past 2 weeks regarding 2 dollars.

You don't understand what is the meaning of day to day to day economy, do you? Economizing expenditures is normal worldwide practice irrespective of whether you are a tourist or in your home city. You seem to find it funny / harsh / pathetic, so be it!

Gosh! Aqualung, I think you have gone out of your mind dude, since my post on taxi services to the airport! I suggest you go consult a psychiatrist. You seem to be suffering from the reports we exchanged couple of weeks ago. Maybe, you are having disturbing nightmares.

My post on taxi services was just to advise newbies that its prudent to order from taxi eziza via telephone for going to the airport from city center than trying hailing on the road which can be slightly more expensive and tedious. And since then, you are cribbing about "my trying to save 2 dollars"! Damn!:-)

If you want to keep the "fight"/ exchange of nasty anecdotes on each other on a daily basis, I am game.[/QUOTE]A cab driver that accepts to take you to the airport with the clock off is a driver and not the owner of the car so all the money is pocketed by him and he doesn't give the owner his share. That is robbery and anywhere in the World robbery is illegal. No, you didn't put a gun to his head but you are accessory to an illegal act.

And, of course, if you helped him steal from his boss he would be absolutely satisfied and eager to hug you for your generosity.

I find that it's you that doesn't understand the point here like you seem to miss the point on a few other posts. You come to Argentina for a few weeks and you think you know the whole deal.

[QUOTE=Aqualung]A cab driver that accepts to take you to the airport with the clock off is a driver and not the owner of the car so all the money is pocketed by him and he doesn't give the owner his share. That is robbery and anywhere in the World robbery is illegal. No, you didn't put a gun to his head but you are accessory to an illegal act.

And, of course, if you helped him steal from his boss he would be absolutely satisfied and eager to hug you for your generosity.

I find that it's you that doesn't understand the point here like you seem to miss the point on a few other posts. You come to Argentina for a few weeks and you think you know the whole deal.[/QUOTE]Ok, Point taken. I really have no clue who is the owner of the cab as long as I reach my destination and the driver part ways with me with a smile on his face. Any taxi, one takes anywhere in the world, one is just bothered about reaching the destination, who has the time to investigate the owner of the cab. If a taxi driver of a foreign country wants to go without the meter, that is purely his problem. That I am accessory in crime sounds very ridiculous to me, because having traveled more than 50 odd, 3rd world countries, in various continents, I noticed that taxi meters are more often than not, rarely referred to. How it benefits the taxi driver or how it harms the owner of the taxi is least of my concern, as long I reach my destination and can afford to pay the amount asked of me.

Well, I have never claimed to know the whole deal about Argentina. It takes a lifetime to really get to know a country and its culture in totality but surely if one is very well traveled in South America (which I am), it does not really take long to figure out most things about Argentina in 3 months.

Finally, just because you stay there, 8-10 months a year and speak the local language fluently does not also necessarily mean that you know the full plot either.

Looking forward to your next nasty anecdote, kind of enjoying the exchange now!

[QUOTE=El Queso]You want to talk about morals? You come here to South America, you stay in nice places, you hobnob with well-off Argentinos (maybe) who mostly don't have a clue really how their own maids and such live (but I do - I can expand on that if you care to get into it) and fuck all the pretty girls you talked about and don't pay taxes (except IVA / VAT) and don't contribute to the local job market and don't really do anything but spend tourist dollars?[/QUOTE]El Queso,

You are a very sensitive guy. When ever we have any discussion on the board, you take it personally on your self, and then you start getting annoyed.

We have shared many drinks together and have many common friends, so I want to refrain from taking you on, word by word on your last argument, but believe me I can.

Purely on legal terms and following the international immigration policy, no one has a right to start any business in Argentina or do any work in Argentina or employ anyone in Argentina, and enter the country as a tourist. The person intending so, should be on a business or a work visa. The person should have a proper DNI, CUIL and other tax related documents. The person should register his business with chamber of commerce or similar in Argentina. The person should have proper legal contracts with the local employees and the tax on their monthly incomes, deducted on source be submitted to the government following the appropriate procedures prescribed.

However, I do not want to get personal about it. If you can get away with it, good for you.

Regarding your wife, I am sorry, I do not wish to discuss it as it is not ethical to discuss someone's wife in a public forum. You should not have taken my comment personally. It was a general statement.

Having said this and generally speaking, I find it very difficult to digest that a 25 year old poor but pretty girl from a 2nd or 3rd world country being madly in love with a 50 year old average looking rich man from a 1st world country. I call it the most convenient form of "love" in this world, where the rich and the poor / old and the young / beauty and the beast amalgamate for the convenience of both.

Regarding you helping the local people by employing them or by marrying a local/helping her family. All sounds good on reading but the fact of the matter is that charity is no charity if personal gains are involved. I do not want to elaborate further. Further, people who do real charity do it anonymously, they do not shout from rooftops to the world " hey, I just helped a poor person from a poor country!!" Do I need to elaborate further on the basic rules of charity?

Regarding me coming for few weeks and spending money as tourist. Well, that is what a tourist is supposed to be doing worldwide. Come, shop, play, spend money in the country and go back. That is why tourists are encouraged in most countries in the world because the country benefits the most without having much to give back in return.

Their is no use saying nasty things about Argentina or any other country for that matter. It is just a matter of chance that someone is born in a first world country and someone born in a 3rd world country. If one is born in a rich country, it does not mean he or she did something heroic to achieve that! Same way, if one is born in a poor country, it doesnt mean he or she should be ashamed of it!

No, you are wrong. I was never dictating morals to you. My remark was general. That is to respect the country where you happen to enjoy great lifestyle because of the economic condition of the country and because the local immigration is allowing you to enter it, thanks to the power of your passport which you got by virtue of being born in a first world country. So appreciate it and thank your luck till it lasts. If reincarnations exists (I doubt though) you may not be so lucky next time.

I have a few questions about the Argentine way of doing business - and these are honest questions that may get a debate going and in no way trying to be clever on my part.

For example - Rock Harders' experience with bars and providers and so on. I have found that most bars I know are owned by Gallegos (Spaniards) or at the most first generation Argies. Same for bakers and most providers for bars and restaurants etc. Take for example Exedra - The new owners are Spanish!

The same in most businesses, Italians or Spanish or, again, first generation Argentine with the original (foreigner) head of the clan making the real decisions.

Even politics and government officials are at the very most second generation Argentines from European stock in most cases second World war refugees here since the mid 40's.

Is it something in the Malbec wines or in the steak that causes the people to have less moral scruples or even according to some posts to have smaller penises.

The only genetic difference I find between Argentina and the US is that in the mix there is more Spanish blood here and more Anglo Saxon blood in the States. The percentage of the rest in the mix (German, French, Irish, Jewish or whatever) is quite similar. So what is the ingredient that makes Argentines stupid and Americans smart? Once again, too much malbec and beef?

And both countries have a similar history at least their three or four hundred years of existence compared to a couple of thousand years for any European country.

[QUOTE=Captain]Ok, Point taken. I really have no clue who is the owner of the cab as long as I reach my destination and the driver part ways with me with a smile on his face.

Well, I never claim to know the whole deal about Argentina. It takes a lifetime to really get to know a country and its culture in totality.

Finally, just because you stay there, 8-10 months a year and speak the local language fluently does not also necessarily mean that you know the full plot either.

Looking forward to your next nasty anecdote, kind of enjoying the exchange now![/QUOTE]No Captain. No nasty exchange. I feel you caught on to my point so I have no intention of getting into any further feud with you. You have contributed with many very useful post here. It's just that in a thread about Argentine corrupt business practices you post about how you (unknowingly I admit) add to that corruption by striking a deal with a cab driver.

And to new mongers, using the Ezeiza Cab service is cheaper (though I can assure you I don't know how they can "legally" keep those prices)

A cheaper way if you have the time and don't have a lot of luggage is to use the shuttle bus from the airport or the 86 regular bus. Another option is to take the bus (I don't remember the number) from the airport to Ezeiza town and then the train to Constitucion.

For those that prefer security or who place a price on their time. From town to the airport hire a renown Remise service.

No hard feelings Captain and next time you are in town the beer is on me.

[QUOTE=Captain]El Queso,

You are a very sensitive guy. When ever we have any discussion on the board, you take it personally on your self, and then you start getting annoyed.[/QUOTE]I get sensitive when you get personal, talk about things that you really don't know much about, and act like an authority on said things after 2 months of touristing around a place where I, and other people that you insulted, live.

I can promise you that had you acted the same in person I would have been just as insulted and annoyed.

[QUOTE=Captain]We have shared many drinks together and have many common friends, so I want to refrain from taking you on, word by word on your last argument, but believe me I can.[/QUOTE]Whatever.

[QUOTE=Captain]Purely on legal terms and following the international immigration policy, no one has a right to start any business in Argentina or do any work in Argentina or employ anyone in Argentina, and enter the country as a tourist. The person intending so, should be on a business or a work visa. The person should have a proper DNI, CUIL and other tax related documents. The person should register his business with chamber of commerce or similar in Argentina. The person should have proper legal contracts with the local employees and the tax on their monthly incomes, deducted on source be submitted to the government following the appropriate procedures prescribed.

However, I do not want to get personal about it. If you can get away with it, good for you.[/QUOTE]I am not working in Argentina, and the visa on which I am here clearly states that I can be here for business meetings. I am not working for any Argentine company and I get NO money from any Argentine source. That visa is issued by the Argentine government and by that same government is renewable on a regular basis. I have a US corporation that employs people legally.

The fact that you obviously think no one should be independent enough to be a contractor and work for themselves is very telling about your politics.

I resent the fact that you are insinuating, or have previously insinuated, that I am doing anything immoral. Do I need to quote you? How more personal can you get than insulting a person's morals? Talking "in general" doesn't really mean much to the person you're talking about when it is an unjust statement.

[QUOTE=Captain]Regarding your wife, I am sorry, I do not wish to discuss it as it is not ethical to discuss someone's wife in a public forum. You should not have taken my comment personally. It was a general statement. [/QUOTE]Get off your moral high horse. It was generic about the description of my wife and our relationship. Those who know me know her and where she comes from. For the rest, we are an authentic example of what you can't believe.

[QUOTE=Captain]Having said this and generally speaking, I find it very difficult to digest that a 25 year old poor girl from a 2nd or 3rd world country being madly in love with a 50 year old average looking rich man from a 1st world country. I call it the most convenient form of "love" in this world, where the rich and the poor / old and the young / beauty and the beast amalgamate for the convenience of both.[/QUOTE]Who really gives a load of crap what you think about something like that? It's personal and you know nothing about it. But you're welcome to your own opinions.

[QUOTE=Captain]Regarding me coming for few weeks and spending money as tourist. Well, that is what a tourist is supposed to be doing worldwide. Come, shop, play, spend money in the country and go back. That is why tourists are encouraged in most countries in the world because the country benefits the most without having much to give back in return.[/QUOTE]I don't have a problem with that. Perhaps you missed the point that it was about the "morality" of what you do versus the "morality" of what I do and how you can talk about another's morailty. Some cultures see what you do as a monger as a disgusting immorality (I don't - but who is right?

I see my activities as net gain in the world for more than one person, I see your activities as benefiting primarily yourself and in a small way a few people for a very short period of time, in the amount of money you spend while visiting.

You can happily not worry about how things are here because you don't live here. You criticize us for having feelings because of the way everyday things impact a person who lives here as more than a tourist and don't really feel or experience what we do.

We still like the place enough to be here, and that is our personal decision. But we probably bitched about every place we've ever lived (even in the States, damn it! In some fashion or the other.

[QUOTE=Captain]Their is no use saying nasty things about Argentina or any other country for that matter. It is just a matter of chance that someone is born in a first world country and someone born in a 3rd world country. If one is born in a rich country, it does not mean he or she did something heroic to achieve that! Same way, if one is born in a poor country, it doesnt mean he or she should be ashamed of it![/QUOTE]You miss the point of everything said on here about the way things are done in other countries AND the US (as Sydney pointed out that we are as well critical of the US, perhpas not in the same way you are)

It doesn't matter where you were born. It matters how you live and who you help and what you do with your life. There are ways to change things, but the surest way to ensure that things stay the same is not to be-I-t-c-h or do anything else about it. Enough bitching by enough people and things generally change. Instead of blaming everyone else, get off one's ass and change things.

If you are so concerned about the difference between a third world life and a first world life, what are you doing about it? Those of us who live down here, often in small ways, sometimes in larger, are doing something.

[QUOTE=Captain]No, you are wrong. I was never talking about your morals. My remark was general. That is to respect the country where you happen to enjoy great lifestyle because of the economic condition of the country and because immigration is allowing you to enter it, thanks to the power of your passport which you got by virtue of being born in a first world country. So appreciate it and thank your luck. If reincarnations exists (I doubt) you may not be so lucky next time.[/QUOTE]No, you are wrong. You were very pointed in your statements about what you were saying. You did not have to talk the way you did about a lot of people that are living here because you think they should shut up and enjoy where they are. We have made these comments through experiences we have had here, not because we are naturally cranky assholes. We have earned the right to be-I-t-c-h.

You choose to look at it that we are in a paradise and we should just lay back and enjoy it. I say that there is no such thing as paradise, in any country anywhere and you should talk about what is not right and let people know. If people think that greed and corruption and bad service are good things, then be happy and don't read about posts like this.

I think that Aqualung's post will generate some interesting discussion. In fact, it was I that first introduced Aqualung to the forum since although he has been in argentina for the majority of his life he knew nothing of this forum prior to me telling him about it (true facts) Over the past several years of coming to Argentina, I have worked diligently at trying to understand the country's approach to business and day to day activities, both in BA and outside BA in several of the provinces both north and south. I have traveled as far south as Teirra del Fuego and am very familiar with the provinces north of BA, as far north as Corrientes. I have made many mistakes over the past five years but have endevoured to learn from them in the interest of getting the most for my tourist dollar so to speak. In fact, I now have quite a few personal friends in Argentina, mostly in the northern provinces, that are born and raised Argentines.

The fact that Aqualung does not understand the "flavour" of most of the US based comments in this forum is in fact not surprising at all. Having lived the majority of his life in Argentina he is, in fact, quite immune to certain aspects of Argentina culture that drive most Americans crazy. Having lived all these years and worked in BA, he does not realize that many Argentines (especially those raised outside of the microcosm that is Buenos Aires) share similiar frustrations with those that visit as tourists.

The central issue that I speak of relates to "corruption". I have found that what most tourists find frustrating about Argentina is a general sense that business in Argentina is based on the rip-off scale. For example, "let the buyer beware" could be the Argentine national motto. A clear example of this relates to my fishing experiences over the past 5 years. To make a long story short, what initially cost 5,000 USD for a week of fishing can easily be found for 3,000 pesos for the same time period, provided you get rid of the worhtless middlemen. Its kinda like "course knowledge" on the golf course per say.

But unfortunately, it goes a step farther in Argentina. Aqualung has been involved in police work in Argentina for a very long time (both before and after the last regime change) Unlike North America, there are many police officers in Argentina that consider taking a bribe as kinda doing business as usual. This is in no way limited to just tourist interaction. The police treat the locals the same way, just expect a lower bribe when they pull ya over. This general approach to the world can be seen in many Argentine business models. Think of it like a country controlled by real estate brokers where you cannot accomplish anything without giving up the appropriate referral fee.

I am fully aware that "greasing the skids in business" is not limited to Argentina. But imagine going into Albertsons (an American grocery store) and expecting that the pricing will be based on a "whatever we can get is fine" approach. NO ONE IN AMERICA WOULD SHOP THERE"!

So Aqualung, my friend (love that line) It's not that Americans think that Argentines are STUPID. What we see is that you do "STUPID BUSINESS" because in the end, when you're always trying to screw the customer for as much as you can. You really don't create much of a successful or stable economy and will always be subject to economic turmoil. When you combine this approach with insidious government practices, such as a corrupt police force and government officials, you will never rise above a second world country and stabilize your economy. And Argentines wonder why the world is very hesitant to do business with you (Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze).

Just my two cents.

Happy Mongering,

Toymann

[QUOTE=El Queso]I get sensitive when you get personal, talk about things that you really don't know much about, and act like an authority on said things after 2 months of touristing around a place where I, and other people that you insulted, live.

Some cultures see what you do as a monger as a disgusting immorality (I don't - but who is right?

If you are so concerned about the difference between a third world life and a first world life, what are you doing about it? [/QUOTE]El Queso,

What a long, boring and empty Rhetoric!i do NOT claim to have any authority on anyone and do NOT wish to insult anyone. My statements are in general (anyone can view the previous posts) However, if someone feels insulted by it, so be it. But they are very much in general.

Being a expat in a country and abusing the country and its people is similar to being a guest in someone's house and abusing the host and his family! What will one call such a guest? Wont he be immediately kicked out of the house? :-) Lets say the house is very dirty and the owner couldn't prepare a good meal and his family are wearing dirty clothes, but does it give the guest the right to abuse the host in his own house?

Regarding mongering being disgusting, you are quite right but I think mongering and being chilled about it, is acceptable on this forum.

Regarding what I m doing for 3rd world people. I just told you in the previous post, the prime rule of charity is that one does it anonymously and does not shout from rooftops or on public forums. So, you may imagine anything about this aspect in your mind, but what I do about charity is very personal and do not discuss in public forums.

And finally chill out, do not get so upset. I am afraid you might have a heart attack.

Chill dude and go to bed. Zzzz.

This is my first report. I have been reading the forum for some months now, and I have a straight question to ask here in relation to the economy. I am coming over to BA early next month from Australia. The Aust dollar has taken a hit with this crisis, down from 97c US in July to 62c today. I bought enough US$ in July to pay for 2 months rent on an apartment in BA. I was going to convert $AUD straight into AR pesos for the $1000US deposit, because I am going to travel for a while after my lease is up.

With all this talk of devaluation and banks closing, should I be biting the bullet and buying $US here for the deposit, even at the low price, so I don't get stuck with devalued pesos when I get the deposit back? Should I buy more $US to keep on me in case of bank closures?

Will anyone take $AUD at the cambios?

I was there last year for the first time, and all I had was my ATM cards.

And always remember the real cost of the crisis:-I could get a chica last year for $60-100AUD, and this year it will be $100 - $160AUD. Thats inflation!

This is not the right board, but also, besides photocopying my USD for the apartment owner so he doesn't swap them out for forgeries and counting out slowly and inspecting each note, is there anything I need to be on the lookout for?

Thanks in advance

Eh? What the fuck are you on about? What has police and bribes and fishing to do with my post here? Or that you introduced me to the site or not? Or the fact that you fucked or tried to fuck me out of my commission for introducing YOU to a cheaper fishing lodge than you can hire from the US? Or that you, when the lodge owner refused to lower his price (already almost three times lower than an American run lodge a few miles away) you went and dealt with a (corrupt Argentine) guide who offered to take you fishing to an area that is off season, and when I (or my partner) warned you about it you are now trying to get into MY lodge as if it was a camping site!

I was expecting some interesting discussion as a result of my post but I never expected such a pile of bullshit as you have just posted. Keep your comments till I start a post on how you paid a handsome tip to (in your words) "the best fuck you ever had" that ended up being a man. The fact that you thought you were fucking a woman while all the time it was a guy fucking you must have really been a lesson about Argentine corruption!

Wherever did you get the idea I don't "understand the flavour of American based comments". My post mentions nothing of the sort. In fact I DO understand them and agree with most of them and that is the reason for my post. But I have come to the conclusion that you either can't read correctly or are too much of an idiot to understand what you read (as the many mails between us suggest)

Toyman, the fact that I refuse to let you on my property for the money you offer has made you react as you have but my business ethics has allowed me to grow yearly and I have outfitters from all over the World from Iceland to Japan buying my product.

I have kept clear any insinuation of my business (or personal life come to that) here on this board as I consider it highly unethical to use a board paid for by someone else to sell my wares. You started this not me!

Other members who introduced me to the board long before you (that is also a fact) know this as being true so whatever you may answer is bullshit.

My sincere apologise to the rest of the members for having to read this very personal issue between Toyman and myself and Jackson, I would prefer you delate this post as long as you also delate Toyman's.

Thank you

[QUOTE=Gabar]With all this talk of devaluation and banks closing, should I be biting the bullet and buying $US here for the deposit, even at the low price, so I don't get stuck with devalued pesos when I get the deposit back? Should I buy more $US to keep on me in case of bank closures?

Will anyone take $AUD at the cambios?

My advice is to change everything into US Dollars as soon as you can. Of course, if the peso goes to hell the exchange for Aus $ will also better but for some reason (yeah, there are many of them) the exchange for US$ will probably be better.

If you still feel like bringing Aus Dollars, most big exchange house will accept them.

This is not the right board, but also, besides photocopying my USD for the apartment owner so he doesn't swap them out for forgeries and counting out slowly and inspecting each note, is there anything I need to be on the lookout for?

Thanks in advance[/QUOTE]Photocopying your notes is sensible. There is no need to be paranoid but keeping you eyes open at all times is a good idea