American Politics during the Obama Presidency

[QUOTE=Doppelganger;419173]Esten, why would WW wish to detail the specifics of his company to you just to be ridiculed for being either too dumb to run the company correctly, you already inferred this in your response, or having a company of little value therefore not attracting investment which you clearly accused him of?[/QUOTE]He just went down in flames with his lie that Obama has killed virtually all private investment. If he cares to try to redeem himself with a better argument, I'm happy to listen.

I can understand his reluctance to get into details though, and your attempt to defend him not doing so. Getting into the details might reveal that his business failure in fact had nothing to do with Obama.

To set the record straight. I don't think the economy is great, or that Obama is without fault. However I don't think the economy is terrible either, or that the causes of unemployment are entirely or even mostly because of Obama. Conservatives would have us believe otherwise. I like to call out the bs, though it is often boring and easier than swatting at dead flies.

[QUOTE]As I recall when I detailed my response to ObamaCare and its potential affect on my decision to either continue healthcare benefits for my employees or discontinue them and pay the fine, your response was I was a hard hearted, money grubbing, employer who cared little for his employees.[/QUOTE]Hmmm. I don't recall that and if you can re-post or link it here please do. I'm quite sure I never used those words, and in fact on 4-20-11 I told you "Your hard work and success and concern for your employees is to be commended.".

What I DO recall, is calling you out on not wanting to be part of any "shared sacrifice" to address our deficits. If faced with a tax increase, you said you would pass that burden entirely on to others.

[QUOTE]So again I can see no point in attempting to detail company specifics to someone out of touch with the operational realities of business.[/QUOTE]Sounds like another cop-out from making a credible argument on how Obama is hurting your business. I'm still waiting for one, waiting and waiting and waiting....

You already know where the post is, you quoted from it. I love your 'shared sacrifice' language. How about we 'share the sacrifice' with the nearly 50% of the population who do not pay any income taxes as well as the wealthy! Isn't that the 'shared' in sacrifice?

Esten, are we on the same planet? You like to tout a few investments of venture capital but you are apparently blind to the fact the economy is not growing, unemployment is creeping up even with Obama's cooked numbers, the dollar remains weak, and your boy Obama can do nothing but make speeches full of sound and fury but signifying nothing. Like the CBO said earlier – they don't score speeches! So where is all this growth the guys are generating in the economy? Sure a few venture capitalists are cherry picking while the market is down, but it is small business that does the heavy lifting on jobs and I don't see any of that happening.

I wonder how Buffett is feeling now about his investment in Bank of America. Maybe he will now take it over and make it part of his personal fiefdom. By the way Warren Buffett does not pay employment taxes like the rest of us.

To set the record straight. I don't think the economy is great, or that Obama is without fault. However I don't think the economy is terrible either, or that the causes of unemployment are entirely or even mostly because of Obama. Conservatives would have us believe otherwise. I like to call out the bs, though it is often boring and easier than swatting at dead flies.

Esten's thoughts above.

The issue is not that the economy is in the tank and unemploymernt and underemployment is causing misery for 25% of the population.

We have had similar unemployemnt and underemployment before.

The issue is that before we always had someone in the White House who understood that only the private sector can remedy unemployment and underemployment. Obama is clueless. Take away his telepromptor and I doubt Obama can speak in complete sentences. Whether Obama should be classified as imbecile/moron or idiot is a moot point. Obama, when it comes to understanding the economy, is definitely somewhere in that range.

However, to give Obama credit, Obama can pick basketball and football winners. I was impressed that he picked Connecticut in last years NCAA basketball tourniment. Unfortunately, that skill is not going to translate into lowering unemployment and underemployment.

Also impressive is how many vacations Obama and his family can pack into a 52 week year.

I think I large reason we have under employment, or unemployment is that most are not educated enough, or have worthless degrees. Like English, Art, History, and yes MBA's. I hire people for a very highly skilled company and let me tell you there are many morons out there. The world in general is kicking the US's asses in the area of math, science and engineering. These are the skills that create, innovate and have trickle down jobs like secretary's, and box kickers. Something the US has forgot about.

Plowing more money into education will not help in the short term though, nor will funding worthless degrees.

I have to agree that hard degrees where you can create something is what we as a nation need to focus on. But I have to disagree regarding MBAs and MSAs, you still have to have someone with management skills to make the pieces fit together and accountants to measure what is and is not profitable. No going concern of any size can run for long without managment and accounting information systems. I have to admit MBA's are not what they were in the past, with every university in the country handing them out like they were free candy. While I know many engineers and other hard science types the one's who can manage are a very small minority.

Go to a job fair in the US and throw a nickel over your shoulder and you will hit an MBA looking for a job.

Can not argue with that. But I would not be tossing change around at a job fair, you could start a riot!

This guy clearly does not get it. He really is stupid.

So, his three big proposals in his jobs speech were:

1. [b]Extend the payroll tax holiday for certain workers, but go from a reduction to 4. 2% to a reduction of 3. 1%:[/b] How exactly will that create jobs? It won't. Employers have no incentive to create jobs from this. The benefit goes to employees. It doesn't reduce employer costs one whit, or make hiring any more attractive. That's $175 billion of his "jobs" program. A strategy that already has been tried and failed.

2. [b]Extend unemployment benefits for an additional year:[/b] How exactly will that create jobs? It won't. He's just given the unemployed another year's worth of incentives to not look for work. If you think it's tough to find a job right now, what do you think will make you look a little harder? Getting more free money or cutting that off and making the job search absolutely imperative. This guy's a true idiot. His best argument, as articulated by his Town Fool Jay Carney, is that this is "stimulative" because the unemployed will spend the money. What a crock of sh*t. Why not just pay everyone not to work? He thinks that everyone else puts their cash in mattresses, rather than investing it and spending it.

The foregoing two proposals stem from the Keynesian, gravity-defying "trickle up" theory of economics. Defying gravity doesn't work, and neither will these policies. They don't create jobs. And they're not stimulative because they have no multiplier effect whatsoever.

3. [b]His third proposal is to give some employers a tax credit for hiring someone who has been unemployed for six months or more:[/b] That won't create jobs, either. The last time he tried this, all employers responded the same way. You don't create any more jobs. You just come up with a form in your recruiting package to ferret out who has been unemployed longest such that you will qualify for a tax credit if you happen to hire that person. Then, you still don't necessarily hire that person. They get the job only if two or more applicants are "tied." It's not worth $4, 000 to hire a crappy employee. This, again, does nothing to create jobs. Like Cash for Clunkers, it shifts the jobs around a bit, but it creates no additional economic activity.

He had a month to think about it and spent a bunch of time at Martha's Vineyard, and this is the best he could come up? Really? Anyone who continues to assert that this guy is smart is just waving the partisan flag.

Finally, Town Dunce Jay Carney told us earlier in the week that Obama's plan would all be "paid for" without additional spending. When pressed, he refused to give details. Now we know why. How is it paid for? Because O said he would punt that math to the Deficit Reduction Committee. Instead of asking the Committee to find $1. 5 trillion in cuts, he'll just ask them to find $2 trillion. Voila! Paid for! Except for one thing. As everyone knows, they won't even be able to come up with the $1. 5 trillion. Adding another half trillion to their task won't change a thing. Nor will it make Obama's plan "paid for." He's just looking for someone to share the blame since he's unwilling to do the dirty work himself.

One year until we get rid of this idiot and get a real president.

[QUOTE=Jackson;419175]Esten, Obama did [U]himself[/U] and his reelection efforts a favor by "[i]by ensuring the country won't have to go through that type of uncertainty again in another 6 months[/i]".[/QUOTE]Jackson, of course in many things politicians do, there is an element of political positioning. And always, what's good for the economy is good for the President.

The real litmus test is this: Is it good for the economy, for the country, for Americans?

The overwhelming consensus has been that the debt ceiling debacle was BAD all around for business certainty and the economy. Why would businesses want to repeat that again in 6 months? They don't.

It would be nice to see you post and say "Obama did the right thing here for business and the economy." I suspect you just can't bring yourself to say it, but I would be impressed if you did.

[QUOTE=Doppelganger;419196]You already know where the post is, you quoted from it.[/QUOTE]Doubling down, are we? I did take the time to go back and review that discussion. And nowhere did I see you discussing PPACA and me calling you a "hard hearted, money grubbing, employer who cared little for his employees.". It was a tax discussion and I said you were self-interested for wanting to pass on a tax increase without bearing any of it yourself. So please post / link your alleged statement. If it doesn't exist admit you were wrong.

[QUOTE]I love your 'shared sacrifice' language. How about we 'share the sacrifice' with the nearly 50% of the population who do not pay any income taxes as well as the wealthy! Isn't that the 'shared' in sacrifice? [/QUOTE]

Here we have Doppel, an individual with one of the highest incomes in the country (in the top 2%), who doesn't want to pay any more tax but proposes people living in poverty pay more tax.

That isn't just sad, it's [i][b]pathetic[/b][/i].

No Doppel, the shared sacrifice is on both the taxation and spending sides. When government spending is cut (be it govt jobs, SS, Medicare, food stamps, infrastructure, unemployment benefits, etc) , it's the poor and middle class who take almost all the hit. Sure, cuts in some of these areas might affect the wealthy as well, but the effect on their wealth and lifestyle is insignificant. The wealthy sacrifice little when government spending is cut.

[QUOTE]Esten, are we on the same planet? You like to tout a few investments of venture capital but you are apparently blind to the fact the economy is not growing, unemployment is creeping up even with Obama's cooked numbers, the dollar remains weak, and your boy Obama can do nothing but make speeches full of sound and fury but signifying nothing. Like the CBO said earlier – they don't score speeches! So where is all this growth the guys are generating in the economy? Sure a few venture capitalists are cherry picking while the market is down, but it is small business that does the heavy lifting on jobs and I don't see any of that happening.[/QUOTE]I suggest you spend some time researching the underlying causes of the current economic situation, you will find many factors at work including several a direct result of free-market capitalism and conservative ideology. The creation and bursting of the housing / financial bubble, mass private sector layoffs, foreclosures and underwater mortgages, banks re-plenishing capital, governments laying off workers, and deep and continued (though unnecessary) cost-cutting by large corporations. It's not quite as simple as "It's Obama's fault".

There's plenty of focus on small business in the American Jobs Act. Obama deserves a lot of credit for what he's done recently to promote conditions for economic certainty and job creation. No doubt you'll be opposed to his efforts, but you'll be on the minority side of public opinion, a place where conservatives often find themselves.

[QUOTE=Gato Hunter;419200]I think I large reason we have under employment, or unemployment is that most are not educated enough, or have worthless degrees. Like English, Art, History, and yes MBA's. I hire people for a very highly skilled company and let me tell you there are many morons out there. The world in general is kicking the US's asses in the area of math, science and engineering. These are the skills that create, innovate and have trickle down jobs like secretary's, and box kickers. Something the US has forgot about.[/QUOTE]I agree. It's also revealing when you break down unemployment by educational degree, you see almost perfect inverse correlation.

Unemployment rate in 2010 (%)
1.9% Doctoral degree
2.4% Professional degree
4.0% Master's degree
5.4% Bachelor's degree
7.0% Associate degree
9.2% Some college, no degree
10.3% High school diploma
14.9% Less than a high school diploma

Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics, Current Population Survey
May 4, 2011
Data are 2010 annual averages for persons age 25 and over

Esten and his comrades discussing Obama and the economy, ' That's what I saw said the blind man, that's what I heard said the deaf one.

Esten, you make yourself look the fool with these defenses.

Quote Esten:
'It was a tax discussion and I said you were self-interested for wanting to pass on a tax increase without bearing any of it yourself. '


No Esten you did not use the exact words but though you attempt to use polite terms the intent and meaning are the same.

Quote Esten:
'Here we have Doppel, an individual with one of the highest incomes in the country (in the top 2%) , who doesn't want to pay any more tax but proposes people living in poverty pay more tax. '


Yea that's right buddy I'm right up there with Bill Gates, Warren Buffett et al raking in the dough. Better check your facts again, I'm in the top 6% not the top 2% but what is the difference between $200k per year and $2 million and up per year when we are talking politics with a flaming liberal socialist.

Esten are you now you are trying to tell us the nearly 50% of the nation that does not pay income tax are living at the poverty level? Right on Comrade!

Quote Esten:
'The overwhelming consensus has been that the debt ceiling debacle was BAD all around for business certainty and the economy. Why would businesses want to repeat that again in 6 months? They don't. '

No Esten, the reason the debt ceiling debacle was bad for the nation was because Congress and Obama could not agree to cut a minimum of $4 trillion from the budget. A figure the rating agencies put out there nearly two months before the 'debacle' began. The problem was businesses and the world fininancial markets wanted to see the federal budget reigned in and it did not happen.

The initial recession was not Obama's fault but the continuation of it, the steady erosion of the dollar's value and unemployment remaining above 9%, though Obama promised if the stimulus was passed it would not go over 8%, is a direct result of his failed policies.

It took Obama nearly three years to figure out we needed a jobs program? Why didn't he pass it in the first two years when he had bullet proof majorities in both houses? Now his 'new' program is more of the same failed policies.

You can argue till the cow's come home but the stagnant economy is Obama's mess and it will dethrone him in November 2012.

If you really want to know who is to blame for the economic mess we are in, it is us, the voters. The voters are the equivalent of a manager of a baseball team. We decide who plays first base, who bats cleanup, who pinch hits etc.

Unfortuneately, during the last election, when the bases were loaded and we were in the hole a couple of runs, we looked at the lineup and made a peculiar decision. We had Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Joe Dimaggio, 'Shoeless' Joe Jackson and Ted Williams available to pinch hit but we sent the scrawny ballboy, who wasn't sure what end of the bat to hold, up to the plate.

[QUOTE=Esten;419207]No Doppel, the shared sacrifice is on both the taxation and spending sides. When government spending is cut (be it govt jobs, SS, Medicare, food stamps, infrastructure, unemployment benefits, etc) , it's the poor and middle class who take almost all the hit. Sure, cuts in some of these areas might affect the wealthy as well, but the effect on their wealth and lifestyle is insignificant. The wealthy sacrifice little when government spending is cut.[/quote]Esten, the people who have their hard earned money taken from them by the government are the ones who are doing the sacrificing, not the people who might receive less of what to them is free money.

[QUOTE=Esten;419207]Obama deserves a lot of credit for what he's done recently to promote conditions for economic certainty and job creation.[/QUOTE][size=3]ROTFLMAO![/size]

Esten, can you actually say that with a straight face?

Anyway, you can preach that BS to the country's "nothinkums" because they're too stupid to know better, but it won't fly here.

Thanks,

Jackson

Esten is an enigma to me.

Sort of like an alchemist in the middle ages who spends his life trying to turn lead into gold.

It won't happen.

When we need to reward people for hard work, taking chances to better themselves, Esten sits on his ass and proclaims that hardworking people, taking chances to better themselves, should be punished and that the loafers of society are the real victims.

In reality the hardworking people as well as ther loafers are victims of Obama's braindead policies. Obama may be worse than Carter and probably is because at least Carter was recognized as an idiot while Obama and his supporters have not yet realized that Obama is an idiot.

I have had enough. I predict a landslide in the next election against the freeloaders of society, championed by that imbecile/moron/idiot Obama.

It is time we realized that the world economy is throwing us curve balls and we need to reward people who can handle curve balls and stop making excuses for people who can't handle curve balls.

Anyway, I don't know about the rest of you, but Estens nonsense is offensive to me.

i think esten should retire to his double wide, collect his food stamps and the remaining 10 days of his unemployment insurance and bid us a final farewell.

On the other hand, we could look at estens nonsense as comedy relief and the product of too many acid trips during his youth.