2012 Elections in the USA

[QUOTE=Esten; 425024]Another condition from Toymann. The last thing I need is a headache from this bet so I am going to put down a condition of my own. A 2 year expiration date. My decisions on how I use my precious vacation time won't be influenced by a bet, nor would I expect that from you. Argentina is just one stop on my rotation, I have several countries I visit (or want to). Obviously the best scenario is we hit the town together on prize collection night. I'm just saying there is no guarantee that will happen, and I don't want to be following some bet for years and years. So any obligations will expire on Nov. 7 2014.

If you win I will make a good faith effort to have the 2000 pesos available for you on your next trip down to BA. If I win, I expect you will do the same in return but can't force you.[/QUOTE]You can be such an assh$ole Esten. I will save you the 2000 pesos and call off the bet. Period. End of story! Would not want to hamper your precious vacation time."Another condition from Toymann", Hit the road idiot! Thought we might have some fun with this BUt you are just not up to it! By the way be*tch, loved your post on top 10% earners should pay 100% of the taxes! IALOTFLMAO! I don't hang with your're kind, EVER! You just want out of the bet little girl, and I will let you off the hook. From the sounds of things you can't afford the bet anyway. Doubt we will see you in BA anytime soon. You so dissapoint me! Toymann

Esten, In 2009, the latest year for which data is available, the top 10% made $3.314 trillion, before paying federal income tax.(1)

In 2009 the federal government spent $3.517 trillion.(2)

If your idea were implemented, how would the top 10% manage to pay rent and put food on the table? How could they afford to pay state income taxes, property taxes, and sales taxes?

I believe there was a touch of irony in Jackson's response to your original post, back in December, 2010.




(1) Go to [url]http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/indtaxstats/article/0[/url], I'd=96981, 00. Html, download 2009 All Returns Selected Income and Tax Items, see last table on the spreadsheet.

(2) [url]http://www.usgovernmentdebt.us/year2009_0.html[/url]

A worker at Bain.

Search for [url]morehttp://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/beyond-the-obama-ads-joe-soptics-steelworker-story/2012/08/08/c193da80-e0c2-11e1-8fc5-a7dcf1fc161d_story.html[/url]

[url]http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2012/08/09/star_of_cancer_ad_joe_soptic_offered_a_buy_out_by_bain[/url]

[url]http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/08/omg-joe-soptic-the-anti-romney-cancer-ad-steelworker-admits-bain-capital-offered-him-a-buyout-video/[/url]

New Distractions,

[url]http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505245_162-57488938/adwatch-romneys-welfare-ad-relies-on-assumptions/[/url]

Every moment this Asshole thinks up a new Lie.

He Edits all Photoshop and Videos.

Come on are you that Dumb?

Why won't Romney release more tax returns?

[url]http://edition.cnn.com/2012/07/18/opinion/kleinbard-canellos-romney-tax/index.html?iref=obinsite[/url]

Did Romney enable a company's abusive tax shelter?

[url]http://edition.cnn.com/2012/08/08/opinion/canellos-kleinbard-romney-taxes/?iref=obinsite[/url]

Face it, Romney is simply a complete greed-driven slimebag who is clearly morally unfit to be POTUS. The 0. 1%ers such as Toymann and Wild Walleye are head over heels in love with Romney because HE is one of THEM. You two twits should read the writing on the wall that there is no way in hell the US voting public is going to elect a scumbag Wall Street snake who has used every brain cell he can harness to defraud the IRS and thus the American people out of every tax dollar possible. Romney should probably be in JAIL and not running for the highest office in the land.

Wow! Our little pinkie friends are getting worried that the Romney Presidency is in the works. So much for their plans to freeload off productive and hard working citizens. No more welfare checks, food stamps and living free in housing projects. Forget watching soaps 24 hours a day while munching on potato chips. They will actually have to do more than go the mailbox once a week looking for federal assistance. What a shock. Can their delicate little sensitivities withstand the the prospect of getting off their fats asses and finding a job. I doubt it, these fragile little crybabies will probably die of withdrawl from lack of twinkies, oreo cookies, netflix videos and not having 24 hours a day to complain how unjust it is to expect them to contribute something to society

[QUOTE=SnakeOilSales; 425031]Why won't Romney release more tax returns?

[url]http://edition.cnn.com/2012/07/18/opinion/kleinbard-canellos-romney-tax/index.html?iref=obinsite[/url][/QUOTE]The IRS has Romney's tax returns. If there was something so wrong, it would be public by now.

You would think our fragile little pinkie friends would be more concerned about Obama ruining the economy and eliminating any hope that they will ever find emoployment. Whoops, forgot, our fragile little pinkie friends have no intention of looking for employment as long as Obama is paying for their weekly supplies of twinkies, oreo cookies and Netflix videos.

[QUOTE=Rocky2;425035]The IRS has Romney's tax returns. If there was something so wrong, it would be public by now.[/QUOTE]And if there was anything wrong with an account he previously had at UBS, he would have been contacted by the IRS.

Snake, in case you did not notice Reid's folks are walking back the claim made on the Senate floor by Reid regarding Romney not having paid taxes for 10 years.

FYI, Reid spoke this lie from the Senate floor and not out in public. Why? Because he is immune from being sued for anything said on the Senate floor, no matter how outrageous. That immunity does not extend outside the Senate floor, you may have noticed Reid has declined to make this allegation elsewhere and his staffers are walking it back when asked in public since there is no immunity for them.

The latest Fox poll showed Obama leading Romney by 9 points among registered voters, the first time Obama has been out of the margin of error since Romney cinched the nomination. I think all of Team Obama's lies have had some effect, but November is still a ways off. I look for Romney to come full bore at Obama after the convention.

I think Obama is losing his brand appeal. Hope and change. Obama's true colors are shining through. Obama is a miserable, mean spirited person. This in addition to being a moron. What we are left with is a miserable, mean spirited moron.

[QUOTE=Rocky2;425035]The IRS has Romney's tax returns. If there was something so wrong, it would be public by now.[/QUOTE]You must be joking. (or a fool)

[QUOTE=Dccpa;425038]And if there was anything wrong with an account he previously had at UBS, he would have been contacted by the IRS.[/QUOTE]There is reason to believe that Romney participated in the IRS amnesty program which resulted in the closure of his UBS account and repatriation of the funds in 2010.

[QUOTE=Rocky2;425035]The IRS has Romney's tax returns. If there was something so wrong, it would be public by now.[/QUOTE]All you need to do is look at what is happening to Alderman to know that you are correct. Look, Leonid Obama won his state and US senate seats by leaking sealed court records (a felony, last I checked. Anyone ever investigated for this?). If there was anything within the reach of his jack-booted thugs, it would be on the front page of the NY Times and on MSNBC. Oops, no one reads / watches them, guess it would be on all of the major mainstream media outlets.

[QUOTE=SnakeOilSales;425043]There is reason to believe that Romney participated in the IRS amnesty program which resulted in the closure of his UBS account and repatriation of the funds in 2010.[/QUOTE]And that reason is what? That you are in a cubicle in an office paid for by what used to be called ACORN, putting out Soviet-style disinformation?

Where are the chica posts from SOS / MOPD? Put up or shut up.

[QUOTE=Tiny12; 425020]PERFORMANCE fees magically turn from ordinary income into capital gains with the wave of a politician's wand.

In your post, you fail to note that another reason for foreign funds is because USA tax exempt investors can't invest in domestic hedge and private equity funds. The USA Congress has screwed up the tax code so bad that our pension funds have to invest offshore![/QUOTE]You are still wrong. Performance is participation in the PROFITS. They are not FEES.

The manager gets paid its fees (usually 2-2. 5% of the total FUM, annually) , regardless of performance. That income goes to the management company and is used to pay the management company's bills and for all non-transactional expenses, including paying the people who work there. Usually, the money left over at the end of the year, is distributed to the employees as bonuses. All of that income (to the employees) is taxable at the relevant marginal, income tax rate. End of story. It is not, repeat not, a capital gain.

The carried interest is similar to owning stock, for which the individual did not pay (i.e. the owner has a cost basis of $0). However, the carried interest does not receive any income if the fund does not exceed a predetermined hurdle rate (e.g. an ROI of 10% or something like that). If and when the fund out performs the hurdle rate, the manager gets to keep the carried interest percentage of the profits (above the hurdle rate). That means that the investors get everything up to 10% and on profits above that they split them between the investor and the manager (e.g. 80/20, respectively). If the individual owners of the management company own their carried interests personally, (i.e. Not through a corporate entity) , they can report that income as gains on Schedule D of Form 1040. If they are short-term gains (i.e. made during the first 18 months that the management entity existed) those would be taxed at the normal, marginal income rate. For carried interests held longer than 18 months, they would be taxed at the reduced capital gains tax rate.

While populists and commies the world over like to ***** and moan about hedge fund managers "tax break" on carried interests, that is because most of those people, like yourself, aren't actually familiar with the subject matter. Hedge fund managers are generally entrepreneurs. They start their own businesses, employ people and contribute mightily to the overall US economy. Within 5 miles of where I sit, at this very moment, there are hedge funds with more than $200B in assets under management. They employ thousands of people, here and their transactions requirements provide the opportunities for thousands of other people to be employed, by other firms, in NY, London, Tokyo and so on. When they are successful, the value of the stock of their companies increases (that is what the carried interest is part of), so why shouldn't they, like any other entrepreneur who creates a successful company, reap the benefits of his labor? Bill Gates has taken 99.99999% of his income, over his lifetime, in the form of long-term capital gains. Warren Buffet? Little secret, that is why Buffet pays a lower effective tax rate than his secretary. Another little secret is that the community of hedge fund managers is overwhelmingly liberal, as is the rest of Wall Street and the Democrat hierarchy knows it. I can just image the conversations between Obama and Jamie Diamond "Well, Jamie, we're going to create and exploit class warfare in order to force our socialist utopia on the people. To do that, we are going to make you and all my other non-Hollywood donors, into scapegoats. But don't worry, alongside the socialist utopia, we will have cronie-capitalism and I will allow you guys on Wall St. to have a banking oligarchy."

[QUOTE=SnakeOilSales;425042]You must be joking. (or a fool)[/QUOTE]So, you don't think that Obama, Holder, Axlerod, Geitner and the of the Obama-stapo would access and use confidential, private individual to harm a political rival, in furtherance of his extremist agenda? Mr. Barnum, I've found one over here.

[QUOTE=El Alamo;425034]Wow! Our little pinkie friends are getting worried that the Romney Presidency is in the works. So much for their plans to freeload off productive and hard working citizens. No more welfare checks, food stamps and living free in housing projects. Forget watching soaps 24 hours a day while munching on potato chips. They will actually have to do more than go the mailbox once a week looking for federal assistance. What a shock. Can their delicate little sensitivities withstand the the prospect of getting off their fats asses and finding a job. I doubt it, these fragile little crybabies will probably die of withdrawl from lack of twinkies, oreo cookies, netflix videos and not having 24 hours a day to complain how unjust it is to expect them to contribute something to society[/QUOTE]Our little pinkie friends! You kill me man, first belly laugh of the day with my coffee! Monger on Dude. Toymann

[QUOTE=Dccpa;425038]And if there was anything wrong with an account he previously had at UBS, he would have been contacted by the IRS.[/QUOTE]Our little pinkie friends (LMAO El Alamo) never let intelligence, common sense or the facts get in the way. Monger On Dude. Toymann

[QUOTE=Wild Walleye;425044]All you need to do is look at what is happening to Alderman to know that you are correct. Look, Leonid Obama won his state and US senate seats by leaking sealed court records (a felony, last I checked. Anyone ever investigated for this?). If there was anything within the reach of his jack-booted thugs, it would be on the front page of the NY Times and on MSNBC. Oops, no one reads / watches them, guess it would be on all of the major mainstream media outlets.[/QUOTE]No one reads the New York Times? It is the third largest newspaper in the United States by circulation, and the largest in its category.

[QUOTE=Wild Walleye;425047]So, you don't think that Obama, Holder, Axlerod, Geitner and the of the Obama-stapo would access and use confidential, private individual to harm a political rival, in furtherance of his extremist agenda? Mr. Barnum, I've found one over here.[/QUOTE]Obama's team is far too smart to take the bait and illegally release Romney's tax returns. Strategically, they really do not need to; either Romney is going to release them, which will reveal him as the slimy Wall Street snake that he is, or, he will continue to refuse which will supply the Obama team with a barrage of ammunition to attack Romney that he can do little or nothing to refute. If Romney's tax returns were a sparkling example of transparency, he would have released the returns already so he could re-frame the electoral debate away from his shadiness, something he has clearly been unable to do up until now.

Walleye, You're a smart guy, most of the time. Read your post. It's nonsense, except the part about Warren Buffet. You're jumping through hoops to come up with the logic to call a performance fee a capital gain. You point out that these guys owe their special tax break to the money that they've contributed to liberal politicians.

I struggle with the same principal, in a different industry. I receive special tax breaks from the government, and have defended them because the marginal rate is so high. But the solution is to do what Romney and Ryan are proposing, bring down marginal rates and eliminate the loopholes. I'm surprised you're defending the status quo, business as usual, special interests paying off politicians for favors.

A related point, I can't understand why many think Romney's background is a handicap. If he's going to clean up the system, it's a big advantage. He knows how loopholes work, and he wants to get rid of them. That's apparent from his tax plan. He knows how to fix an enterprise that's bleeding red ink and about to go under, like a company, the Olympics, and hopefully the federal government.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;425053]Walleye, You're a smart guy, most of the time. Read your post. It's nonsense, except the part about Warren Buffet. You're jumping through hoops to come up with the logic to call a performance fee a capital gain. You point out that these guys owe their special tax break to the money that they've contributed to liberal politicians.[/quote]Carried interests are equity participation. In principal, they are no different from stock options or other forms of equity compensation, except that for the guys that start the fund, they are essentially founders' stock.

[quote=]I struggle with the same principal, in a different industry. I receive special tax breaks from the government, and have defended them because the marginal rate is so high. But the solution is to do what Romney and Ryan are proposing, bring down marginal rates and eliminate the loopholes. I'm surprised you're defending the status quo, business as usual, special interests paying off politicians for favors.[/quote]Maybe you could cite some of my posts defending the status quo. I am all for a flat tax. The corporate income tax should be zero, because corporations do not pay taxes. No matter how you slice it. Therefore, corporate taxes are just a means of additional taxation on the individual. Who is already over taxed. Eliminate the corporate tax and you reduce the taxes on individuals, while at the same time enabling US companies to be more competitive on a global basis.

There is nothing status quo about supporting lower taxes on investments and equity participation, in all of its forms.

[quote=]A related point, I can't understand why many think Romney's background is a handicap.[/quote]I don't think that the Veep pick means squat, in the bigger picture. However, what it represents is an opportunity for the media to declare war on yet another member of the Obama opposition and to try to further hamper (beyond what they are already doing) Romney's campaign.

[quote=]If he's going to clean up the system, it's a big advantage. He knows how loopholes work, and he wants to get rid of them. That's apparent from his tax plan. He knows how to fix an enterprise that's bleeding red ink and about to go under, like a company, the Olympics, and hopefully the federal government.[/QUOTE]I'd like to see a veep like Ryan and a sweep of the House and Senate. Then, I'd like to see Romney take a page out of Obama's book and go full throttle with the executive branch and the legislative branch under one roof to gut the federal government. First step would be to eliminate every czar appointed by Clinton, Bush and Obama and dissolve their respective organizations. Then he should pass legislation forcing federal agencies to adhere to the Constitution and to cease and desist in creating new, extra-constitutional legislation (EPA, etc.), repeal Obamacare and every executive order he has enacted. Then, he can start to do the real work that is needed to get us back on the right path. The objective should be to reduce the actual size of government by 20% over the next 10 years.

At the end of the day, whilst standing alone in the voting booth, the American voter will have to do one of two things, vote for true hope and change or close his/her eyes and mind and pull the lever for four more years of misery and the further decline of this great nation.

Staus quo enough for you?

[QUOTE=SnakeOilSales;425051]Obama's team is far too smart to take the bait and illegally release Romney's tax returns.[/quote]You are a joke. Obama and his puppet masters use proxies to do all of their dirty work and they have absolutely no quams about breaking the law. They do it all the time, with absolute impunity. Just look at the clear violation of federal election law whereby the WH, the campaign and the PAC colluded on the "Romney Killed My Wife" ad. The campaign and the PAC shot ads, both starring Joe Soptic on the same day, wearing the same clothes. Keep in mind that Obama and Holder are very likely to have been complicit in more than 300 murders, in Mexico. 2,400 felonies for knowingly shipping illegal arms across international borders (there are no exceptions to the law for the president or for law enforcement) and the deaths of two federal agents. Leaking IRS information is small potatoes. I guarantee you that Axlerod's henchmen have personally reviewed all of Romney's tax returns.

[quote=]Strategically, they really do not need to;[/quote]They can't release 'it' because they didn't find anything to leak. Therefore, they do it all with smears.

[quote=]either Romney is going to release them, which will reveal him as the slimy Wall Street snake that he is, or, he will continue to refuse[/quote]It hasn't worked so far. I'm perfectly happy to have the Obama campaign waste its time and money on things that repulse the American public.

[quote=]which will supply the Obama team with a barrage of ammunition to attack Romney that he can do little or nothing to refute.[/quote]The first truthful, factual thing that you have posted.

[quote=]If Romney's tax returns were a sparkling example of transparency, he would have released the returns already[/quote]OK, Mr. Axlerod. If SOS / MOPD didn't beat his wife, he would have already proven it. Ergo, SOS / MOPD must be a wife-beater.

[quote=]so he could re-frame the electoral debate away from his shadiness,[/quote]Of course, if he would just release the records, Obama, his campaign and the PACs that he illegally controls would drop the only issue his campaign has ever had.

[quote=]something he has clearly been unable to do up until now.[/QUOTE]Run a poll to see who the likely voters think is a bigger scumbag and I suspect that you will see an overwhelming majority who are sickened by what a lowlife Obama is. So much so that many people, who up to this point have been afraid to say anything against Obama, are starting to vocalize their displeasure.

After you post something about a chica (that isn't just regurgitated material from other APers' posts) , we can continue this discussion. Otherwise, time for you to go.

[QUOTE=Toymann;425028]Esten. I will call off the bet. Period. End of story![/QUOTE]Guess the growing realization that the re-election of Obama is becoming more likely every day is disorienting enough for Toymann than to face the prospect of sitting across the table from a triumphant Esten one night next year and then have to pick up the tab.

[QUOTE=Wild Walleye;425055]Otherwise, time for you to go.[/QUOTE]Been overdue for sometime now. The shill should move on and stop deluding himself that anyone, even the liberals on the board (except maybe WT69) , can't see right through him. Been fun watching himself humiliate himself over and over with his rumor mill of deluded posts and fabrications. LMAO. It's been a fun ride. My favourite post (which he edited) was when he inferred that El Jeffe was a "RACIST". That was rich, and then he whinned for a couple days that his posts were being edited or deleted. That was totally rich and provided unending entertainment. Sadly, the enetrtainment value has really dropped off BUT I love the way he paints you and me as the 1%ers. I really appreciate that comment as I came to the US 20 years ago with barely the shirt on my back and now represent his acqusation alrightly. God Bless the American Dream! I know of no other country on earth that provides immigrants with the opportunity to get ahead like the Good Ol'USA. Only sad little pinkies like SnakeBoy howl at the moon and complain over the system they believe has passed them by. Bye Bye snakeBoy. It's been real and it's been great BUT right now it's not REAL GREAT! Monger on all. Toymann

[QUOTE=Wild Walleye;425054]Carried interests are equity participation. In principal, they are no different from stock options or other forms of equity compensation, except that for the guys that start the fund, they are essentially founders' stock.[/QUOTE]For me there is a huge difference between equity participation and founder's stock. The hedge fund founder is not risking capital and the founder of a company is. If the hedge fund manager fails he or she just closes up shop and starts a new fund without any personal loss of capital. I think that the activities involved in running a hedge fund.raising funds, analyzing financial statements, trading and writing reports. Should all be considered as labor same as they are in other businesses. As such I think it should be taxed as income rather than a special category as carried interest. As Tiny says it distorts economic activity. Many of my favorite sell-side analysts at Morgan Stanley left to start there own hedge fund. Suspiciously now you are seeing some of them return.

[QUOTE=SnakeOilSales;425043]There is reason to believe that Romney participated in the IRS amnesty program which resulted in the closure of his UBS account and repatriation of the funds in 2010.[/QUOTE]Again, this administration leaks like a sieve when it is convenient and they have not even insinuated this issue through any of their regular mouthpieces. MR has released his 2010 return. There has been no mention of a 2010 amended return as would have been done in such a situation. So, I am 99. 999999% sure that he was not in the IRS amnesty program. And as opposed to the guy in the commercial, that does mean I am sure.

[QUOTE=Big Boss Man;425061]For me there is a huge difference between equity participation and founder's stock. The hedge fund founder is not risking capital and the founder of a company is. If the hedge fund manager fails he or she just closes up shop and starts a new fund without any personal loss of capital. I think that the activities involved in running a hedge fund.raising funds, analyzing financial statements, trading and writing reports. Should all be considered as labor same as they are in other businesses. As such I think it should be taxed as income rather than a special category as carried interest. As Tiny says it distorts economic activity. Many of my favorite sell-side analysts at Morgan Stanley left to start there own hedge fund. Suspiciously now you are seeing some of them return.[/QUOTE]I don't see a difference between the two. Bill Gates put a lot of sweat equity into Microsoft, but not a lot of money. I think the amount of start up capital was $50, 000. Same for all of my business clients. Each of them may have put their respective ass (ets) on the line for the bank, but they rarely put money into the business. I believe the hedge fund operator's share of profits from customer account earnings should be taxed as earned income and at regular income tax rates. For the profits of any monies they invested themselves, I would tax as unearned income and at capital gains tax rates.

[QUOTE=Toymann;425058]Been overdue for sometime now. The shill should move on and stop deluding himself that anyone, even the liberals on the board (except maybe WT69) , can't see right through him. Been fun watching himself humiliate himself over and over with his rumor mill of deluded posts and fabrications. LMAO. It's been a fun ride. My favourite post (which he edited) was when he inferred that El Jeffe was a "RACIST". That was rich, and then he whinned for a couple days that his posts were being edited or deleted. That was totally rich and provided unending entertainment. Sadly, the enetrtainment value has really dropped off BUT I love the way he paints you and me as the 1%ers. I really appreciate that comment as I came to the US 20 years ago with barely the shirt on my back and now represent his acqusation alrightly. God Bless the American Dream! I know of no other country on earth that provides immigrants with the opportunity to get ahead like the Good Ol'USA. Only sad little pinkies like SnakeBoy howl at the moon and complain over the system they believe has passed them by. Bye Bye snakeBoy. It's been real and it's been great BUT right now it's not REAL GREAT! Monger on all. Toymann[/QUOTE]Toymann, do you have an undiagnosed case of Aspergers Syndrome?

[QUOTE=Wild Walleye; 425055]You are a joke. Obama and his puppet masters use proxies to do all of their dirty work and they have absolutely no quams about breaking the law. They do it all the time, with absolute impunity. Just look at the clear violation of federal election law whereby the WH, the campaign and the PAC colluded on the "Romney Killed My Wife" ad. The campaign and the PAC shot ads, both starring Joe Soptic on the same day, wearing the same clothes. Keep in mind that Obama and Holder are very likely to have been complicit in more than 300 murders, in Mexico. 2,400 felonies for knowingly shipping illegal arms across international borders (there are no exceptions to the law for the president or for law enforcement) and the deaths of two federal agents. Leaking IRS information is small potatoes. I guarantee you that Axlerod's henchmen have personally reviewed all of Romney's tax returns.

They can't release 'it' because they didn't find anything to leak. Therefore, they do it all with smears.

It hasn't worked so far. I'm perfectly happy to have the Obama campaign waste its time and money on things that repulse the American public.

The first truthful, factual thing that you have posted.

OK, Mr. Axlerod. If SOS / MOPD didn't beat his wife, he would have already proven it. Ergo, SOS / MOPD must be a wife-beater.

Of course, if he would just release the records, Obama, his campaign and the PACs that he illegally controls would drop the only issue his campaign has ever had.

Run a poll to see who the likely voters think is a bigger scumbag and I suspect that you will see an overwhelming majority who are sickened by what a lowlife Obama is. So much so that many people, who up to this point have been afraid to say anything against Obama, are starting to vocalize their displeasure.

After you post something about a chica (that isn't just regurgitated material from other APers' posts) , we can continue this discussion. Otherwise, time for you to go.[/QUOTE]The latest Fox News (who would have ever thought?) poll has Obama leading by 9 percentage points, so clearly the Obama campaign strategy of portraying Romney as the greedy Wall Street weasel is working. Face it, WW, you are simply so far out of touch with the US voting public that your thoughts and analysis on this election are completely irrelevant.

[QUOTE=Big Boss Man;425061]For me there is a huge difference between equity participation and founder's stock. The hedge fund founder is not risking capital and the founder of a company is. If the hedge fund manager fails he or she just closes up shop and starts a new fund without any personal loss of capital.[/quote]I disagree. A hedge fund is like any other business. Founders have capital, opportunity costs and their reputations - which can severely inhibit their ability to make a living, in the future - at risk. I have yet to meet a landlord, utility company, administrative assistant, computer networking company or any other vendor that will provide their goods and services free, just because the business is a hedge fund. However, those costs and investments are part of the management company, which is a legal entity distinctly different and separate from the legal entity that is the "fund." Without an interest in the fund, managers would have to sell the management company in order to participate in "equity" upside. Since the management is generally what attracts investors to hedge funds, that would have a deleterious effect on AUM and in many cases is not allowed, anyhow.

[quote=]I think that the activities involved in running a hedge fund.raising funds, analyzing financial statements, trading and writing reports. Should all be considered as labor same as they are in other businesses. As such I think it should be taxed as income rather than a special category as carried interest.[/quote]This past year, I started a new company. I paid for it and incorporated it. On "day one" it had no assets and $450 in liabilities and $450 in equity. In every possible way, that entity had next to zero value. I owned 100%, which if I sold it after 18 months (assuming the tax rates don't go up) , I will be taxed at 15% on my profits. The same is true of a newly created hedge fund. On "day one" it has next to zero for a value. Therefore, the carried interests have zero value upon its creation. The reason that they are 'carried interests' and not straight equity is out of deference to the investors capital and potential phantom tax issues. Additionally, the management fees pay for "doing the job" while the participation compensates for outperforming the status quo.

[quote=]As Tiny says it distorts economic activity.[/quote]The fact that it is a financial business does not exclude it from being an entrepreneurial pursuit, replete with lots of risk. If starting a hedge fund, in your opinions, distorts economic activity, so too must all entrepreneurial pursuits and small businesses.

[quote=]Many of my favorite sell-side analysts at Morgan Stanley left to start there own hedge fund. Suspiciously now you are seeing some of them return.[/QUOTE]You are proving my point. If starting a hedge fund was riskless and a guaranteed path to riches, why then are they returning to relatively safe positions at large institutions?

[QUOTE=SnakeOilSales;425068]The latest Fox News (who would have ever thought?) poll has Obama leading by 9 percentage points,[/quote]A poll of "adults" (not likely voters, not even registered voters, adults?) which over sampled democrats by 9%.

[quote=]so clearly the Obama campaign strategy of portraying Romney as the greedy Wall Street weasel is working.[/quote]You can believe whatever you want.

[quote=]Face it, WW, you are simply so far out of touch with the US voting public that your thoughts and analysis on this election are completely irrelevant.[/QUOTE]OK, I'll face it. On November 7th.

Meet you at Archibald's for a drink, after you get out of work. I imagine your cubicle isn't too far from there.

[QUOTE=Dccpa;425064]Again, this administration leaks like a sieve when it is convenient and they have not even insinuated this issue through any of their regular mouthpieces. MR has released his 2010 return. There has been no mention of a 2010 amended return as would have been done in such a situation. So, I am 99. 999999% sure that he was not in the IRS amnesty program. And as opposed to the guy in the commercial, that does mean I am sure.[/QUOTE]I read one analysis today that said one plausible explanation among 4 offered is that Romney paid no taxes in 2009 because of large capital gains losses. It is hard to figure why he is not releasing tax returns given the harm it has done him in publicity. According to the article, Obama is using the Romney tax campaign tactic to target uncollege-educated white male voters in swing states. He knows that they will not vote for him but it is just as good if they do show up to vote.

It seems realistic in my experience. I have not paid capital gains tax since 2009 and still have a large capital gain loss carry forward. I am very religious about harvesting my tax losses. I always seem to make one dumb ass move. VALE is my dumb ass move for this year.

In 2009 I sold everything to harvest the capital gains loss, stayed out of the market for 6 months, then leveraged back in at the end of the year. Harvesting capital losses is fairly simplistic well-known strategy but I think if you are not in the market or all your money is in an IRA people may not be aware of it. I could see Romney using this strategy.

The blog article is from a liberal magazine so consider the source.

[url]http://www.tnr.com/blog/plank/105974/unified-theory-romney-tax-stubbornness[/url]

[QUOTE=Toymann;425028]You can be such an assh$ole Esten. I will save you the 2000 pesos and call off the bet. Period. End of story! Would not want to hamper your precious vacation time."Another condition from Toymann", Hit the road idiot! Thought we might have some fun with this BUt you are just not up to it! By the way be*tch, loved your post on top 10% earners should pay 100% of the taxes! IALOTFLMAO! I don't hang with your're kind, EVER! You just want out of the bet little girl, and I will let you off the hook. From the sounds of things you can't afford the bet anyway. Doubt we will see you in BA anytime soon. You so dissapoint me! Toymann[/QUOTE]As far as I'm concerned. Any attempt by you to cancel the bet, will just confirm you're a chickensh*t, who can't back up his words with action.

My only concern is you not paying up. The point of the expiration date was to avoid having to track this thing for years until we are in town at the same time (your requirement) , not for me to avoid paying. Rather self-serving you want me to adjust my travel schedule to yours, isn't it? And while you only propose ONE method of payment (in person) , I have proposed TWO (in person or not). Seems I am the one trying to make the bet work, while you're trying to make it difficult or cancel it.

Let me re-state to say I will not put an expiration date on my obligation. If I win, I'll let you off the hook if I haven't collected after 2 years. If you win, I am 100% certain I will get you the funds one way or another, and soon. So either way there will be closure.

Don't be a chickensh*t, Toymann.

[QUOTE=SnakeOilSales;425067]Toymann, do you have an undiagnosed case of Aspergers Syndrome?[/QUOTE]No, he is just an immigrant from a former socialist country. If you ever had to queue alongside them at the airport, you know what I mean!

Just joking, Toymann, don't get a seizure.

[QUOTE=Tiny12; 425029]Esten, In 2009, the latest year for which data is available, the top 10% made $3. 314 trillion, before paying federal income tax. (1)

In 2009 the federal government spent $3. 517 trillion. (2)

If your idea were implemented, how would the top 10% manage to pay rent and put food on the table? How could they afford to pay state income taxes, property taxes, and sales taxes?[/QUOTE]Tiny, income tax is only one component of federal tax revenues:

Sources of Federal Tax Revenue, FY2010
3% Excise taxes
6% Other
9% Corporate income tax
40% Payroll taxes
42% Individual income taxes

42% of 3.5 Trillion = 1.5 Trillion. That still leaves plenty for the top 10%.

Anyhow, back in 2010 I also qualified my response to Jackson, that while I believed my answer to be fair, it is not something I would actually propose. I believe there is value to having skin in the game, paying income tax if you can afford to, and there are plenty of folks below the top 10% that can afford to.

Good Point Esten. Federal revenues in 2009 were only 2.1 trillion though. And the top 10% do pay payroll taxes too.

Without going into detail, the top 10% actually only paid about $830 billion to the federal government, instead of the $1.5 trillion you calculated. The federal deficit in 2009 was 3.5 trillion - 2.1 trillion = 1. 4 trillion, which you can confirm on the usgovernmentrevenue.com web site.

If the top 10% were to have picked up the slack in 2009 so the government wasn't running a deficit, they would have paid 0.83 trillion + 1.4 trillion = 2.2 trillion. And their adjusted gross income, again, was 3. 3 trillion. They just can't do it. My point was not only the inequity of having the 10% pay everything, which you apparently recognize, but also that the size of federal government expenditures isn't sustainable. That the top 10% just don't have the money to fund government at it's current level. While 2009 was a difficult year, 2030 and 2040 and 2050 are going to be much worse, with massive increases in Medicaid and Medicare on the horizon.

When you're deciding what you think is fair, please remember the state and local income, sales and property taxes that people pay. The average 25% federal tax rate for the top 10% can morph into 40%+, depending on where they live. I also wish you realized that savings and investment in the hands of businesses and individuals do much more to promote economic growth than expenditures by the federal government on whatever it is that the federal government does.

Walleye, I hope you don't get pissed. I actually do get a kick out of your posts and agree with you most of the time. But this was too good to pass up.

[QUOTE=Wild Walleye;425069]I disagree. A hedge fund is like any other business. Founders have capital, opportunity costs and their reputations - which can severely inhibit their ability to make a living, in the future - at risk. I have yet to meet a landlord, utility company, administrative assistant, computer networking company or any other vendor that will provide their goods and services free, just because the business is a hedge fund. ?[/QUOTE]I understand now. Actually I always understood, honestly, that capital gains and dividends from businesses, including public corporations, should be subject to no or low rates of tax, for reasons of fairness and so capital will be allocated efficiently. But now I understand that the work of hedge funds and private equity funds is so important that part of the fees they charge should be taxed at lower rates than landlords, utility companies, administrative assistants, computer networking companies, and all other vendors. George Soros, for example, when he almost broke the Bank of England. I always hated those Limey Bastards. What they did to us in the War of 1812. Not to mention what they did to the Irish. They should pay. And how would we have ever pricked the mortgage bubble without John Paulson? Algorithmic trading, commodity speculation and trading collateralized default swaps are some of the highest of mans' callings.

[QUOTE=Wild Walleye;425069]This past year, I started a new company. I paid for it and incorporated it. On "day one" it had no assets and $450 in liabilities and $450 in equity. In every possible way, that entity had next to zero value. I owned 100%, which if I sold it after 18 months (assuming the tax rates don't go up) , I will be taxed at 15% on my profits. ?[/QUOTE]This is fantastic financial engineering! I don't think even old Bernie* could have come up with something like this. It's money for nothing! Now if we can only get the chicks for free.

[QUOTE=Wild Walleye;425069]The same is true of a newly created hedge fund. On "day one" it has next to zero for a value. Therefore, the carried interests have zero value upon its creation. The reason that they are 'carried interests' and not straight equity is out of deference to the investors capital and potential phantom tax issues. ?[/QUOTE]Can I do this too? If I pay off a few Congressmen, will they change the law so that part of the income generated from the sweat equity I'm putting into my new business will be treated as capital gains?

[QUOTE=Wild Walleye;425069]The fact that it is a financial business does not exclude it from being an entrepreneurial pursuit, replete with lots of risk. If starting a hedge fund, in your opinions, distorts economic activity, so too must all entrepreneurial pursuits and small businesses.[/QUOTE]This is so true. Loopholes, government subsidies, different tax rates applied to different businesses, these are the sorts of things that drive the economy and help all the tax lawyers and accountants working for the large corporations that know how to take advantage of these things.

*Pick your Bernie, Madoff, Cornfield or Sanders. Assets = Liabilities + Equity. You can't create an entity with +$450 in equity and no assets. FYI, if you've been waiting 18 months for long term capital gains treatment you don't need to. You only have to hold for 12 months and one day.

I like this ticket for what it says! Romney-Ryan = the Romney crowd must figure Florida is in the bag (I also agree with this) , no need for Rubio (he's too green anyway and the latino vote is meanless anyway). Wisconsin is now in the bag. I am liking what I see. BIG TIME. Monger On All Toymann