American Politics during the Obama Presidency

[QUOTE=StrayLight]Dude, we just finished eight years of the lowest income taxes in living history. If income tax cuts were a panacea and the key to stimulating the economy, we'd be buying and selling the cities of China at this point. The reason Obama is in office and Republicans are licking dog shit out of the gutters is because most Americans understand a bit about reality (which most Republicans obviously don't)[/QUOTE]You've got that backwards. China is kicking ass, among other reasons, because (a) their maximum marginal income tax rate on businesses is 25% , versus 35% to 48% in the U. S. and (b) The Chinese government is run by engineers while the U. S. Government is run by lawyers like Obama.

I agree that you can't say that good economic performance immediately and directly follows from tax cuts. But it is fair to say that the tax cuts passed during the Kennedy, Reagan and Bush administrations have improved the economy. Our economy over decades past has grown faster than Europe's, unemployment is lower here, and with a couple of exceptions, being Norway and Luxembourg, per capita GDP is higher here after adjusting for purchasing power. I believe that resulted directly from lower taxes.

Jackson's point about lowering taxes to get us through a recession was spot on. The government has two levers of fiscal policy, lowering taxes and increasing spending. If taxes are lowered, it leaves money with individuals and businesses, who are going to spend it more efficiently than government. Obama and Congress increased spending, but from what I understand (and I haven't been following this closely) it's mostly for pork and won't be spent until 2010 and 2011, that is, until we'll probably be out of the recession! How much sense does that make?

[QUOTE=Tiny12]You've got that backwards. China is kicking ass, among other reasons, because (a) their maximum marginal income tax rate on businesses is 25% , versus 35% to 48% in the U. S. And (be) The Chinese government is run by engineers while the U. S. Government is run by lawyers like Obama.[/QUOTE]As one who currently lives in China, I can attest that you left out all of the salient factors, apparently in order to push your personal political agenda:

1. Most Chinese companies are complete monopolies and pay close to slave wages. Thus, at the sole expense of the billion workers, their cost of production is virtually irrelevant.

2. China is not a free country. When the government wants to assist a business they just hand over billions, or bulldoze a community away. They push all other interests aside with no concern for whatever the cost or disruption is to the general population.

3. The government and businesses in China have absolutely no regard for protecting the health and safety of the workers.

4. Product safety is non-existent. Consider baby formula tainted with melamine to increase its readings for "protein" content; lead paint used on children's toys, which leads to mental retardation; poisonous dogfood, etc.

5. China has no concern whatsoever for the environment. The cities have some of the worst air polluton in the world, and both raw industrial sewage and human and animal waste are dumped daily into its rivers, lakes, and the sea. We receive regular warnings never to eat the local seafood nor venture into the beaches of the South China Sea.

Even the local bottled water has been found to be contaminated, so I will only drink imported bottled water.

6. Religious freedom and political dissent remain extremely oppressed in order to eliminate or at least control the possibility of the people being able to communicate and organize to advance their own interests. If all else fails, we have seen that the government will unleash its tanks on the people.

In fact, the government has now mandated that all computers sold after July 1 must have the spy program "Green Dam" installed so that it can monitor everyone's web activity and email. It is expected that a similar program for mobile phones is soon to follow. This kind of reminds me of the wiretapping program in the U. S. that intercepted every phone call and text message under the guise of fighting "terrorism."

For those of you who despise the ACLU and wish to crush all civil liberties, you should come check out the results. You just might like it here.


No serious, informed person would deny any of the above items.

So please get real.

It is sheer nonsense to assert that the growth of of the economy in China has anything to do with the "marginal tax rate." Don't take it personal, but that has to be one of the most ignorant political statements ever uttered!

Rather, it has everything to do with a total disregard of the Communist system for anything resembling the concept of freedom, nor of any concern for the quality of the peoples' lives - all in a single-minded pursuit of enormous profits and power.

Hmmmm.

This totalitarian Communist society, with its low "marginal income tax rate on business," sounds exactly like a wet dream come true for the extremist laissez faire capitalists of America!

DB

I am too busy stashing away fractional gold maple leafs to give a shit about that asscrack Obama or any Americano for that matter. I am silently waiting (ok - not silent here) for the roof to cave in on the USA. It can't happen soon enough.:) I will then march into Florida (or roll in in a Chevy 3500 diesel dually 4x4) and buy a nice place on the chain of lakes near Orlando. Maybe I'll hire some americano's to clean my pool and sweep my sidewalks and - oh - perhaps use Americano's to "bait swim" in the lake so the gators leave my precious doggies alone when they chose to wet their little paws:)

Remeber - the whole world knows - you can't treat an Americano too lightly or they will take advantage of you and try to tell you how to run yo' life. Best to beat them at EVERY opportunity to remind them of who de boss! Dat way dey keeps in line. Can't nevah beat yo' americano to much. Besides - dey LIKES it. Dats Right - dey do!

"An american, you wife and an old oak tree - the more you beats dem de better dey be"

[QUOTE=Tmontana]I am too busy stashing away fractional gold maple leafs to give a shit about that asscrack obama or any Americano for that matter. I am silently waiting (ok - not silent here) for the roof to cave in on the USA. It can't happen soon enough.:) I will then march into Florida (or roll in in a Chevy 3500 diesel dually 4x4) and buy a nice place on the chain of lakes near orlando. Maybe I'll hire some americano's to clean my pool and sweep my sidewalks and - oh - perhaps use Americano's to "bait swim" in the lake so the gators leave my precious doggies alone when they chose to wet their little paws:)

Remeber - the whole world knows - you can't treat an Americano too lightly or they will take advantage of you and try to tell you how to run yo' life. Best to beat them at EVERY opportunity to remind them of who de boss! Dat way dey keeps in line. Can't nevah beat yo' americano to much. Besides - dey LIKES it. Dats Right - dey do!

"An american, you wife and an old oak tree - the more you beats dem de better dey be"[/QUOTE]LOL. I'm not quite sure what your point is other than turning the tables, but I got a good laugh.

I'm not sure what this has to do with tax cuts and the American economy, but if you want to argue, I'll argue.

[QUOTE=Dodger Bulldog]As one who currently lives in China, I can attest that you left out all of the salient factors, apparently in order to push your personal political agenda:

1. Most Chinese companies are complete monopolies and pay close to slave wages. Thus, at the sole expense of the billion workers, their cost of production is virtually irrelevant. DB[/QUOTE]I don't live in China but have looked at Chinese companies. Your first sentence is absolutely not true. There's lots and lots of competition in China, it's cut-throat and margins in many instances are low. About slave wages, look at the worker wages and conditions in China versus, say, India. While by your standards, those of a rich American, they may be slave wages, they're not compared to any other country that 30 years ago was at the same level of economic development as China was 30 year ago. Your comment about "slave wages" is something used by the American left to justify catering to their labor union masters. The union leaders would prefer that people in 3rd world countries remain unemployed so their members in the U S can keep their low paying jobs, instead of moving onto more productive work.

[QUOTE=Dodger Bulldog]3. The government and businesses in China have absolutely no regard for protecting the health and safety of the workers.

4. Product safety is non-existent.

5. China has no concern whatsoever for the environment. DB[/QUOTE]3, 4 and 5 are all true. Like lower taxes on business, all these cause the cost of business to be lower in China than in many other places. Lower costs mean more more money to re-invest and grow business, a higher economic growth rate, more employment, and higher wages. So I agree, along with lower taxes they contribute to economic growth.

In my post, I said AMONG OTHER REASONS, China is kicking ass because of lower tax rates and BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT IS RUN BY ENGINEERS. I'd guess that these conditions you describe exist in part because the country is run by engineers, unfortunately with no checks and balances.

I agree with you there should be checks and balances on the environment, safety, etc. However, like me, you view the world based on your own experiences. If you're a farmer in rural China struggling to survive, a salary of $3,000 (or about $12,000 adjusted for purchasing power) working 6 days a week in a polluted city might be a very good option.

[QUOTE=Dodger Bulldog]6. Religious freedom and political dissent remain extremely oppressed in order to eliminate or at least control the possibility of the people being able to communicate and organize to advance their own interests. If all else fails, we have seen that the government will unleash its tanks on the people.

In fact, the government has now mandated that all computers sold after July 1 must have the spy program "Green Dam" installed so that it can monitor everyone's web activity and email. It is expected that a similar program for mobile phones is soon to follow. This kind of reminds me of the wiretapping program in the U. S. That intercepted every phone call and text message under the guise of fighting "terrorism."

For those of you who despise the ACLU and wish to crush all civil liberties, you should come check out the results. You just might like it here.

DB[/QUOTE]You assume anyone who espouses liberal economic policies, like me, is automatically someone who's anti civil liberties. That's not true. You couldn't be further from the truth. Furthermore that applies to just about every Republican or Libertarian on this board -- we're mongers, and we don't appreciate the government sticking its nose where it doesn't belong. If you're saying spying on the citizenry and supressing religious freedom and political dissent produces faster economic growth, you're wrong about that too.

[QUOTE=Dodger Bulldog]It is sheer nonsense to assert that the growth of of the economy in China has anything to do with the "marginal tax rate." Don't take it personal, but that has to be one of the most ignorant political statements ever uttered! DB[/QUOTE]O. K. Don't take it personally, but your statement above sounds ignorant to me. As does what you say later about Communist China being a capitalist's wet dream. If you think China could tax business at the same rates as, say, the U. S. and still grow at 8% to 10% a year, well, that's not right. As you point out with your statements about the environment, health and safety, etc., it's all about the cost of doing business. And higher taxes, like other costs, reduce the amount of money that businesses can re-invest in growth. I never said China was a Utopia, I never said I'd rather live there than the U. S. I said it's kicking ass (economically) And, AMONG OTHER REASONS, it's because of lower taxes on business.

By the way, neither you or I even touched on the one or two most important reasons why economic growth in China is faster than the U.S.

If I saw street bums in BsAs each with their own copy of Atlas Shrugged I'd be encouraged. If I saw even one US street bum reading a copy I'd running screaming happy thoughts in the street.

Trouble is it will always be easier for people to take from others what they need rather than expend the time, labor and resources to produce something. Humans are lazy. Government s are worse and ALL descend into tyranny over time.

That being said, it is true the Chinese economy is run my technocrats while the USA is run by bureaucrats. Economics is not an exact science.

It is also true that the Chinese economy has little taxation of it from a US perspective. While you could argue the US experience has more past positives than the chinese experience there can be no argument that the Chinese have the resources to change their social welfare for the better while the USA can not afford the social welfare it has.

Guns and Ammo, Gold and Silver, Liberty over Monopolistic Power, Right not wrong.

[url]http://en.sevenload.com/videos/c3kZgM8-The-Four-Stages-of-Revolution-Part-1-of-2[/url]

Sidney,

Don't you lose respect for yourself when you post this garbage?

Seriously man.

You wanna post links to reputable websites, please go ahead.

You wanna give your overly biased opinions, please go ahead.

But posting spam emails that are complete bullshit is beneath you.

[url]http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/barackobama/a/obama_citizen.htm[/url]

[url]http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp[/url]

Please provide the direct link to ASSOCIATED PRESS or STFU.

Regards,

BM

We all know that Pres. Obama was born on Krypton.

Seriously, it's results that count. My take: so far, so good.

Human greed and desire for wealth and power is too strong to allow capitalism to go insufficiently regulated. The widening income inequality and consumer abuses over the past decade point to the need for more government involvement, not less.

[QUOTE=Esten]Human greed and desire for wealth and power is too strong to allow capitalism to go insufficiently regulated. The widening income inequality and consumer abuses over the past decade point to the need for more government involvement, not less.[/QUOTE]Nobody is going to disagree with your first statement.

About your second one, are you talking about the U. S.? If so, after the last election, now that the plaintiff's bar controls the national government, what's the problem? The biggest consumer abusers in the U. S. are lawyers, not capitalists. Examples from the present and past: private planes, silicone breast implants, hurricane insurance, and obstetricians. These products or individuals from time to time have been high-priced, unavailable, in short supply, or driven out of business in the U. S. because of the lawyers, like the ones who today control the Democratic Party.

As to the widening income inequality and government involvement, that's something that Tmontana and Sidney have replied to below much more articulately than I ever could. It sounds like you want government to level the playing field, via socialism or communism. That's a recipe for stagnation.

Gee, one mention of favoring more government involvement and I'm accused of possibly supporting communism. That's pretty funny!