American Politics during the Obama Presidency

Greetings everyone,

So why is it that the neo-libs expect us to apologize for acting in our own self interests?

The fact is that [u]EVERY[/u] country in the world makes their decisions based on their own self-interests, not on who they like.

It makes NO difference if they like us or not, because they make decisions regarding their country based on their own self-interests, period.

Personally, I can only think of one occassion in modern history in which any country did something for the USA because they "liked" us: In 1886 the French people gave us the Statue of Liberty.

Sorry! The Status of Liberty was funded by private donations, and thus is was a gift from the French [i]people[/i], not the French government.

Thanks,

Jackson

[QUOTE=Jackson]Greetings everyone,

So why is it that the neo-libs expect us to apologize for acting in our own self interests?

The fact is that [u]EVERY[/u] country in the world makes their decisions based on their own self-interests, not on who they like.

It makes NO difference if they like us or not, because they make decisions regarding their country based on their own self-interests, period.

Personally, I can only think of one occassion in modern history in which any country did something for the USA because they "liked" us: In 1886 the French people gave us the Statue of Liberty.

Sorry! The Status of Liberty was funded by private donations, and thus is was a gift from the French [I]people[/i], not the French government.

Thanks,

Jackson[/QUOTE]Jackson,

Not sure if I'm being paranoid, but if you're referring to my recent posts, I did make the distinction between being 'liked' and having good diplomatic relations. They're not the same thing. And for some US citizens to be concerned that their country was an international pariah, as was the USA during many of the Bush years, it's a reasonable stance.

[QUOTE=Jackson]The fact is that [u]EVERY[/u] country in the world makes their decisions based on their own self-interests, not on who they like.

It makes NO difference if they like us or not, because they make decisions regarding their country based on their own self-interests, period.[/QUOTE]This would make sense if the US made decisions that were entirely within its own borders. The problem is that the US's "interests" frequently extend far beyond its borders.

[QUOTE=Jackson]The fact is that [u]EVERY[/u] country in the world makes their decisions based on their own self-interests, not on who they like.[/QUOTE]Jackson's statement that nations only have interests, not allies or friends certainly reflects the behavior of most nations throughout history. However, it begs the question, who defines those interests and do those operational definitions really define the best interests of the nation as a whole. It is silent on the question as to whether as nations pursue their self-defined interests they need to consider moral or ethical constraints.

Again throughout history, those nations that have dominated world affairs defined their interests in expansionary terms that served the narrow business interests of their ruling oligarchs, often to the detriment of the greater interests of their citizenry and with little regard for morality.

The U. S. Was no exception. Just take a look at the history of U. S. Latin American relations. Cheap bananas and tomatoes hardly justify being in bed with murderous dictators.

A new century has dawned. It prompts one to look back at the sorry history of U. S. Foreign policy during the later half of the last century. That review raises questions about whether the creation of an economy based on far-flung military adventurism and globalizing international finance to expand and secure wealth for a narrow sliver of the citizenry can be sustained.

Can we continue to be involved in wars in countries hardly worthy of that designation and with all our power, might and money still be unable to "win" anything? Can we spend $50 billion dollars a year on nuclear arms when we have enough to destroy the world a dozens times, encourage some nations to increase their nuclear arsenals, while threatening war against other nations who just want to join the club? The insanity of it should be clear, but then much of the world is insane.

Obama by raising questions about whether there is a better way has sparked the hopes of much of the world and the respect of the Nobel Committee.

We may find out he is naïve and nothing can tame the forces of the status quo who prefer endless wars, bloated military spending, the sacrifice of thousands of America's young soldiers year after year and the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent civilians in countries we choose to occupy, as we pursue our self-defined "interests."

A very likely scenario is the U. S. Falls of its own weight, which one assumes is not in it's best interest.

[QUOTE=SteveC]Jackson,

Not sure if I'm being paranoid, but if you're referring to my recent posts, I did make the distinction between being 'liked' and having good diplomatic relations. They're not the same thing. And for some US citizens to be concerned that their country was an international pariah, as was the USA during many of the Bush years, it's a reasonable stance.[/QUOTE]Hi SC,

You are obviously correct that we should aspire to achieve good diplomatic relations throughout the world. My point is that we shouldn't distort our own decision process by factoring in some sort of "will they like us" quotient under the presumption that other countries will reciprocate, because they most certainly do not.

Thanks,

Jackson

I agree the award seems premature. The intention is clearly to influence and help Obama to stay strong in the direction he is going; and it appears the committee thought that was sufficient justification. We shall see how it plays out.

If you haven't yet, look up Obama's acceptance speech. It's quite good.

[QUOTE=SteveC] "compared to his predecessor, he already looks like a master-craftsman" [/QUOTE]Unlike so many other cynical people, I can point to a recent episode that Mr. Obama has been instrumental in creating peace.

Mr. Obama refuses to send reinforcements to the US Army in Afghanistan. The Taliban attack and nearly overwhelm Camp Keating, an American base in Kamdesh Province. Then, Taliban take over the Camp Keating and control the entire province when the base is evacuated. The outnumbered, overwhelmed American Army turns tail and flees, and the Taliban revel in their strategic victory.

Voila! Mr. Obama has created peace for the people of Kamdesh! The Norwegians love it! Give that man an award!

This headline may come as a bit of a surprise, so too might that fact that the warmest year recorded globally was not in 2008 or 2007, but in 1998.

But it is true. For the last 11 years we have not observed any increase in global temperatures.

In the 1970's the prediction was that we were entering a new ice age. Wrong.

Lately the prediction has been than CO2 was causing global warming. Wrong.

I don't think there is anything sinister behind the global warming alarmists, nor do I think Al Gore is especially stupid for believing in global warming. The advocates of global warming simply made a weather prediction and their forecast was wrong.

[QUOTE=Hunt99]Unlike so many other cynical people, I can point to a recent episode that Mr. Obama has been instrumental in creating peace.

Mr. Obama refuses to send reinforcements to the US Army in Afghanistan. The Taliban attack and nearly overwhelm Camp Keating, an American base in Kamdesh Province. Then, Taliban take over the Camp Keating and control the entire province when the base is evacuated. The outnumbered, overwhelmed American Army turns tail and flees, and the Taliban revel in their strategic victory.

Voila! Mr. Obama has created peace for the people of Kamdesh! The Norwegians love it! Give that man an award![/QUOTE]Camp Keating was an indefensible position. In a fucking remote valley at the base of a mountain range: dah.

[QUOTE=Sidney]This Sunday Fox news, is going to air a very important documentary about Barack Obama.[/QUOTE]You told everyone to watch last Sunday! Is this a new weekly fiction series?

Do you get any compensation for your promotional work? Maybe you should!

[QUOTE=Damman]Camp Keating was an indefensible position. In a fucking remote valley at the base of a mountain range: dah.[/QUOTE]I am sure that the Taliban will have no problem defending it against Commander-in-Chief Barack Obama, winner of the Nobel Peace Prize.

I thought the Nobel Peace prize was awarded to people who had accomplished something, myself. There's no way that Obama won the prize based on anything he's actually done.

I read an article online from the NY Daily News that mentioned the awarding of the prize has drawn a lof of general criticism, but that many heads of state around the world are congratulating him.

Including mention of Fidel Castro's take on the matter (quote fromt eh article): "Cuba's Castro called it a "positive step" but said the prize is more a repudiation of President Bush than a recognition of anything Obama has done."

And what Michael Steel had to say (another article quote): "But Republican National Committee head Michael Steele is bristling with outrage, saying in a letter that Obama won the prize "for awesomeness.""

I think that both comments say it all. The Nobel Peace prize is pretty much crap at this point.

According to NobelPrizes.Com, the reason Obama won the prize was "for his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples."

Well, he hasn't actually accomplished anything except show that the US is more willing to talk than threaten. We don't even know how that policy will actually play out. But nothing has really been accomplished than to say the US is now "more friendly."

In 2007, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change and Al Gore won the peace prize (as I'm sure many know) "for their efforts to build up and disseminate greater knowledge about man-made climate change, and to lay the foundations for the measures that are needed to counteract such change."

I ask myself what exactly a scientific / engineering / social subject has to do with peace? Sure, if they could somehow keep it from happening or keeping humans from influencing what is actually a natural process, some future conflicts may not occur - but really? The Nobel Peace prize for that?

The nobel prize was first started after the guy that invented TNT died. It was in his will. I guess he felt guilty for bombs blowing up people.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Prize[/url]

The peace prize has had controversy before.

I read an interesting article about the comments that Chief Justice of the CA supreme court had to say related to the California state government:

[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/11/us/11calif.html[/url]

As bad as the more indirect democracy that we have at the federal and every other state level, California's much more direct democracy has driven the state to its knees.

Direct proof that given too much power, the people, in sufficient numbers, will vote in anything that "sounds good" but just can't work.

Our foundng fathers were very wise.

I studied Roman history in high school (back then in my school it was mandatory as was Latin) Reading the recent comments here it sent me back to the debates the Romans had about their Empire.

The Roman imperialists said "Oderint dum metuant." That means "let them hate so long as they fear."

The Roman Historian Tacitus, countered that with the sentiment with a quote from a British general who said of the Romans: "Auferre, trucidare, rapere falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant." That translates "to ravage, to kill, to steal under false pretenses they call empire and when they make a desert and they call it peace."

Things haven't changed very much for a lot of people even after two millennia. There are clearly a few fans of American imperialism here.

[QUOTE=Hunt99]I am sure that the Taliban will have no problem defending it against Commander-in-Chief Barack Obama, winner of the Nobel Peace Prize.[/QUOTE]Taliban just want to defend their poppy fields. They have a bumper crop this year. Hell, leave them alone and they will kill each other off.

I picked a hell of a time in life to quit sniffing glue.

Be good

The US should legalize personal consumption of drugs, tax the production and sales.

The drug war is over in a year.

There is big money in law enforcement and corrections.

[QUOTE=Sidney]This Sunday Fox news, is going to air a very important documentary about Barack Obama,

Sunday night at 8:00 PM central / 9 PM Eastern. The report will go back to Obama's earlier days, showing even then his close ties to radical Marxist professors, friends, spiritual advisers, etc.

It will also detail his ties to Rev. Wright for 20+ yrs. How he was participating with this man, and not for the reasons he states!

The report has uncovered more of Obama's radical past, and we will see things that no one in the media is willing to put out there. It will be a segment to remember.

Mark your calendar and pass this on to everyone you know: Sunday night, 8 PM. CT; 9 PM ET.

Democrat or Republican, this report will open your eyes to how YOUR country is being sold down the road to Totalitarian Socialism.

If you care about the direction of our country, pass this.

Notice on to everyone you know.[/QUOTE]A reliable source told me that Obama's father was a KGB operative who was ordered to sired a sleeper agent who could ascend to the presidency. However, the Nobel Peace Prize was never included in the planning.

[QUOTE=Damman]I picked a hell of a time in life to quit sniffing glue.

[/QUOTE]I am deeply sorry that an American company produced the toxic waste that you innocently inhaled. I apologize for the selfishness and greed that caused you to needlessly suffer. A new sense of responsibility and openmindedness in my country will ensure that such dark days of the past will never recur. Join me on a quest to remedy the abuses that come from unchecked commerce and destruction of the environment.

[QUOTE=Hunt99]I am deeply sorry that an American company produced the toxic waste that you innocently inhaled. I apologize for the selfishness and greed that caused you to needlessly suffer. A new sense of responsibility and openmindedness in my country will ensure that such dark days of the past will never recur. Join me on a quest to remedy the abuses that come from unchecked commerce and destruction of the environment.[/QUOTE]Ya sir mast ha. It is the second coming. By the way, need a little help with this credit-card thing. It was the glue.

[QUOTE=El Alamo]This headline may come as a bit of a surprise, so too might that fact that the warmest year recorded globally was not in 2008 or 2007, but in 1998.

But it is true. For the last 11 years we have not observed any increase in global temperatures.

In the 1970's the prediction was that we were entering a new ice age. Wrong.

Lately the prediction has been than CO2 was causing global warming. Wrong.

I don't think there is anything sinister behind the global warming alarmists, nor do I think Al Gore is especially stupid for believing in global warming. The advocates of global warming simply made a weather prediction and their forecast was wrong.[/QUOTE]If you are seriously interested in this subject, a good source of information is [url]http://royalsociety.org/page.asp?id=6229[/url].

To summarise the causes: Scientists have determined that a number of human activities are contributing to global warming by adding excessive amounts of greenhouse gases to the atmosphere. Greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide accummulate in the atmosphere and trap heat that normally would exit into outer space.

I'm not getting into an argument about this, just making available to anyone interested an excellent source which articulates the problem far better than I ever could.

Yes Steve.

Good site. But where is the global warming? It doesn't exist.

Where are the rising oceans? There are none.

How long will it be before these idiots give up this lost cause.

P.S. I can almost predict fatso Gore's response when the hoax of man made global warming is obvious to all.. I think he will say something like 'well, it sounded like a good idea at the time'

[QUOTE=SteveC]I'm not getting into an argument about this.[/QUOTE]And this is the last time I'm taking the bait!

There's so much information out there, you can do the research yourself. But in answer to your last question, have a look at this.

[url]http://www.actionbioscience.org/environment/chanton.html[/url]

And just because someone disagrees with you it doesn't necessarily make them an idiot!

Steve.

Sorry if I was abrasive. That was not my intent. And if you want to call global warming skeptics idiots, I will not be offended. Who knows, you might be right.

Personally, I couldn't care less about manmade global warming other than it is probably not a good thing if it is occurring.

I am just continually amused how this idea of man made global warming won't die.

But one thing is for sure. Time will tell.

Had we believed fatso Gore, hurricanes should have destroyed most of the Eastern United States,, tornados should have wiped out most midwestern cities in the United States and Florida should now be under water.

It is just so fucking funny that people believe this bullshit.

[QUOTE=SteveC]And this is the last time I'm taking the bait![/QUOTE]This is the last time. I'll be losing all credibility at this rate. OK, I didn't have any to start with.

I think the point about this is that Florida is not going to disappear in the next decade, we'll just have to wait a bit longer for that. But, if we don't take this seriously, we won't be able to stop it. And don't worry about being abraisive, I've got a thick skin. Just don't call me fatso.

Steve

Just to have some comment related to the possible (probable? Myth of global warming, as another possibility.

I've been hearing about global warming since the 70's. They have yet to hit any prediction that was presented as far as I know. That flies in the face of science, actually. They need to revise theories based on scientific data; not on trying to fit scientific data to their theories (those who are theorizing the end of civilization if we don't "do something")

[url]http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3061015&page=1&page=1[/url]

[url]http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2007/11/14/nasa-debunks-part-global-warming-myth-will-media-report-it[/url]

[url]http://z4.invisionfree.com/Popular_Technology/index.php?showtopic=2050[/url]

The second article's title ("NASA Debunks Part of Global Warming Myth, Will Media Report It?") makes me wonder: could it possibly be that man-made global warming is becoming a multi-billion dollar a year industry between big grants that concerned governments and "greenies" have a vested interest in perpetuating?

Governments and large organizations that deal with a large number of different issues (like the news media, for example, as well) as a whole, in my opinion, are generally too "stupid" by definition to understand the science behind what is being presented by those who look to slant the data in their favor.

As the article about the NASA report (and many others on the web) state, a lot of these changes are very cyclical, over decades. The Earth has been MUCH warmer in the past than it is now; includng during human times, but when the population of the Earth was measured in the tens or hundreds of millions, rather than billions. Humans didn't have the technology to affect the climate then (very questionable as to whether what we are contributing now even really shows up at all in the overall grand scheme of things) and yet there are ruins that can be found in places, like off the coast of Florida, South America and in places in the Mediteranean Sea, where whole cities are underwater because the shore line used to be a whole lot lower than it is today, all around the world.

People who build on low coasts are asking for problems even if there weren't rising sea levels (man-made or natural)

Just another panic for people to lose their attention to, which should be focused on more serious issues.

"There is a clear attempt to establish truth not by scientific methods but by perpetual repetition."
- Richard S. Lindzen, Ph.D. Professor of Atmospheric Science, MIT

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.”
- Joseph Goebbels, Nazi Propaganda Minister

El Queso.

You and I are in the same boat. The climate always goes through warming cycles and cooling cycles. After billions of years of these warming and cooling cycles we have finally figured out that greedy, capitalist bastards are to blame for these cycles.

I don't know how this could become any more insane.

P.S. much to the dismay of the man made global warming fanatics, it appears we are now entering a cooling cycle.

Amen brutha Alamo!

BTW - here's very interesting 20/20 video on YouTube, with John Stossel:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHCJ-UhZFT4[/url]

This issue has indeed become a religion. Al Gore with his movie that won him an Oscar and a Nobel price has kids and their parents scared shitless. Scientists who say anything against the "closed debate" are said to be obstructing solutions and are on the take by some "big-business" conspiracy. They receive death threats from "believers."

Things like this that get perpetuated on huge levels, are serious problems. There are not enough people who can investigate beyond what the fear mongers have to say and then process that data critically. Fear mongers use that human weakness to put the damndest chains around our ankles. Drugs wars and AIDS are two other fallacies that fear mongers use to suck so much time and energy out of the world.

This whole global warming thing has been an annoyance up until now, but with the world in the condition it's in economically, the last thing we need to do is saddle ourselves with a bunch of regulations to bring down productivity and worsen the problem because we can't see the forest for the tress.

I am glad I can turn here for all the answers!

I guess this includes the war on terror and the rising tide of illegal immigrants too huh? Or I guess those are real because you believe in em aye?

No need to answer, the question was rhetorical, as I assume the answer would be as well.

Regards,

BM

Btw. Check your pm box

[QUOTE=El Queso] Drugs wars and AIDS are two other fallacies that fear mongers use to suck so much time and energy out of the world.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=BadMan]I guess this includes the war on terror and the rising tide of illegal immigrants too huh? Or I guess those are real because you believe in em aye?

No need to answer, the question was rhetorical, as I assume the answer would be as well.

Regards,

BM.

Btw. Check your pm box[/QUOTE]You might be surprised how I feel about those two issues if you think the question is rhetorical, dude.

I actually don't like the war on terror because it has eroded freedoms significantly - it has given the fear mongers a slippery slope toward authoritarianism - look at the Patriot Act (which I hope dies little by little instead of being renewed as parts expire) Big Brother coming around, with the permission of the people who have given up their freedoms because they were scared. Not that terrorists aren't a true threat - they are. But we don't have to give up our rights a little at a time to combat it. I'd rather see every citizen armed in case they came across some jackass terrorists instead of acting like sheep and allowing the government to keep expanding their power.:)

Illegal immigration? I'm from Texas and I've worked with Mexicans just about all my life. For the most part, illegal Mexicans (who I worked with in my younger days as a ditch digger, then a jobsite superintendent) are hard working fuckers and send a ton of money back home to their poor families. They often live in small, cramped, cheap places with a lot of people, to save money. They do the jobs most Americans wouldn't want to get their hands dirty with. They are a lot like the Paraguayans here in Argentina, whom I also admire.

I wish they were legal. I wish the US government would wake up and institute a huge guest worker program, and allow them to take less than minimum wage as guest workers - if they want to work for less, that's their business. The money they get paid is obviously good enough as an illegal or they wouldn't be there to begin with (the "market", in other words)

Many (most? Are actually paying taxes - they have fake SS cards, often a number that is a real number from a citizen, because businesses have to have a way to account for their money, at least on big scales, like in construction. We always had issues with the IRS related to one of our laborers having a SSN that was confused with some other tax payer, often in some other part of the country. The guys would just disappear, and go work on another crew somewhere with another SSN.

Get rid of all that stupid crap and institute a guest worker program! And it's not "taking advantage" of Mexicans per se (in a bad way, in other words) - it's a win-win situation. They need the work and we need cheap labor. People need to get past this "guilt" thing about paying workers less money. Few realize that the illegals come to the States because, even with lower money than everyone else is geting paid IN THE US, it's a fuckpot-full better than what they can make in their own country.

But BadMan, those two items are social issues, which are not clear-cut issues, depending on your social belief system.

Global warming is a different animal completely. That is science (or should be) And what's happening is that non-scientists like Gore are taking bad information and telling the country and the world that the data they see means something that it really doesn't.

There was a really, really important piece in that 20/20 piece I linked to that Mr. Gore didn't show his audiences, but Mr Stossel brought up. He shows a graph with two lines - one is the temperature of the Earth over 600,000 years, and the other is the level of CO2 over that same time period. Over that time, there are spikes in temperatures, and along with that, amazingly enough, are spikes in the CO2 level. The CO2 line is at the top of the chart, separated from the temperature levels which are at the bottom of the chart, separated from one another.

Gore points to that in his movie and says (paraphrased) "see, it's obvious that spikes in CO2 levels are affecting temperatures on Earth."

Mr Stossel, however, "magically" moves the CO2 graph over the top of that of the temperature graph (superimposed) where you can actually see the relationship visually - over 600,000 years, a period of a couple of decades to a couple of hundred years, it's hard to tell when the graphs are separated what the true relationship is. And guess the fuck what? It turns out that the CO2 levels FOLLOWED a temperature rise when they are superimposed, they didn't CREATE the temperature rise (which would require that the levels PRECEED the temperature rises) And that makes good scientific sense because CO2 will be released from the ocean, for example, as the world warms.

And Al Gore scares kids with the ocean levels rising FEET (as much 20 feet he says) but he also doesn't say that we are talking inches over decades and that 20 feet would be if global warming continued at the current rate for a couple of HUNDRED years.

The same with the temperature rise. Everyone agrees that the temperature is rising, that IS a scientific fact which just about every scientist who studies this WILL agree to. The average temperature worldwide has risen.6 degrees fahrenheit over 100 YEARS! It's not an emergency. We're not all about to die in 20 years if "something doesn't happen." IN FACT, no one really knows what a temeprature rise means, but even if it's a problem, it's not humans who are causing the rise in temerature.

The fact that Mr Gore owns a company that will trade CO2 credits, one of the idiotic ways people have come up with to reduce carbon emissions (which will never actually do anything) doesn't at all mean that he has some other motive for making people think that he's the savior of the planet from those evil corporations who are trying to kill us all!

[QUOTE=El Queso]Illegal immigration? I'm from Texas and I've worked with Mexicans just about all my life. For the most part, illegal Mexicans (who I worked with in my younger days as a ditch digger, then a jobsite superintendent) are hard working fuckers and send a ton of money back home to their poor families. They often live in small, cramped, cheap places with a lot of people, to save money. They do the jobs most Americans wouldn't want to get their hands dirty with. They are a lot like the Paraguayans here in Argentina, whom I also admire.[/QUOTE]How cool! I used to work in Tyler, Texas as a ditch digger for a construction company just after high school. We were putting up different hotels back then, circa 1984. I can attest to your observations: The hardest working guys on the construction site were the illegal Mexican guys. They would bring these guys in as brick layers and rock cutters for the vanity landscaping stones. Watching those guys work was amazing. They were the only guys more disliked on the construction site than my pals and I (Yanks who went to Texas looking for work) They weren't disliked for the reason most would think, I. E. Because they were Mexicans or "illegals." They were disliked for the same reason we were: They were taking the locals' jobs.

What part of Texas did you work in, and about when? We may have run across each other. I was with "C" Construction Company back then. I still remember my old boss: Milton Black. Great guy. It was minimum wage work but 80-100 hours a week. Even at minimum wage, we still did OK. There was no time to spend it. Plus, Tyler was in a dry county. I still have great memories of East Texas from back then. Heck, since it was in a dry county, I still have [I]memories[/i] from back then.

Though you do not need my kudos Stan and El Queso concerning immigrant workers, could not agree more. Hardest of workers and deserve a better deal. They get ripped off from both sides of the fence. In another life, did a little county time and ended up working in the fields with many of these so called illegals picking asparagus: work / release. Received quite an education and learned a real respect for these people. What they have to endure was an eye opener. When I look back, it was a fun time, if you have to do some time. There was a lot of asparagus picking and a lot of screwing going on in them thar fields. I needed to be reminded of those experiences. Life is crazy.

Thanks

[QUOTE=Stan Da Man]I can attest to your observations: The hardest working guys on the construction site were the illegal Mexican guys.[/QUOTE]Hi Guys,

I was in the home building business in Florida for more than 20 years, and the industry there certainly had it's share of hard-working Mexican and Central American workers.

However, I didn't observe any difference in the working habits between the legal Mexican and Central American workers and the illegal Mexican and Central American workers, so I don't understand your point.

Are you suggesting that those who are here illegally work harder than those who are here legally? Is your admiration based on their legal status?

Thanks,

Jackson.

==============================================

For the record, I am [u]NOT[/u] a Rebublican, and I am [u]NOT[/u] a conservative.

- I am [u]against[/u] the death penalty.
- I am [u]against[/u] [u]any[/u] government support of religious organizations.
- I am [u]for[/u] the legalization of recreational drugs.
- I am [u]for[/u] the legalization of commercial sex.
- I am [u]for[/u] a woman's right to choose.
- I am [u]for[/u] comprehensive sex education.
- [size=+1][b]I am [u]for[/u] a foreign guest worker program.[/b][/size]
- I am [u]for[/u] a universal flat tax on [u]EVERYONE'S[/u] income.
- I am [u]for[/u] health [u]INSURANCE[/u] reform.
- I am [u]for[/u] health [u]JUSTICE[/u] reform.

I am a member of the Libertian Party, registered as an Independent.

[QUOTE=Stan Da Man]What part of Texas did you work in, and about when? We may have run across each other.[/QUOTE]It was in Houston, various years.

I started out in highschool, actually, digging ditches over summers with a buddy of mine whose father owned the construction company - Simonsen Construction. I worked in South Houston preparing the forms and ground and such for concrete pours for underground poured-in-place drainage systems. This would have been 1978 & 1979 during the summers. I worked the job to raise money for my first car and then have enough money for insurance and gas. I really enjoyed that job - I had a couple of years of Spanish in school and at lunch time my buddy and I would sit with the Mexicans and BS about life, pussy, you name it.

After that, in the mid-eighties I went to work for a precast concrete company (we erected parking garages and other commercial buildings with our precast product) I started out as a general go-fer, then a truck driver, then a finisher on the job site. At the plant and on the site about 1/2 to 2/3 of the workers were illegals. Later, I became a draftsman and designed a lot of the buildings we were putting up, then became a superintendent and managed the shipping, erection, and finishing crews. That lasted until about '92 when I changed careers again.

[QUOTE=Jackson]However, I didn't observe any difference in the working habits between the legal Mexican and Central American workers and the illegal Mexican and Central American workers, so I don't understand your point.

Are you suggesting that those who are here illegally work harder than those who are here legally? Is your admiration based on their legal status?[/QUOTE]Actually, my point was that our immigration policies are too strict and we have no ability to allow a large number of cheap laborers into the country legally. I was saying that the illegal immigrants now actually do provide a service, many (if not most) of them are being taxed as it is (as opposed to many erroneous comments by many fear mongers to the opposite) and they are hard working to boot.

If we had a guest worker program of some sort, we would be able to let these people cross the border legally, they would be documented, and we could ensure that they would be easier to track down if we needed to.

Of course, I do believe that they have no right to be in our country illegally - but human nature tells us that they will find a way to do it with or without the government's consent (like drugs) so why not acknowlege this and do something real about it rather than build walls around our country?

As far as people like that taking local jobs - very few of the American Citizens I know are willing to do the kind of labor, for the kind of pay, that illegal AND legal immigrants do. If this labor source did not exist, prces on various items would likely go up as we had to pay the workers more.

I don't know what the answer is exactly, I just feel sympathy for people who want to work and are seeking a market where they can do so. Again, it's a win-win situation so let's figure out how to do it legally and let everyone win above-board.

[QUOTE=Jackson]Are you suggesting that those who are here illegally work harder than those who are here legally? Is your admiration based on their legal status?

Thanks,

Jackson.[/QUOTE]Yep, that would be accurate from my observations. Now, truth be told, I didn't go around checking these guys' green card status, so I'm not positive they were all illegal. It's my assumption based on talking to a few of them, and from the fact that none of them spoke a whit of English. They all hung together.

But, yes, the illegals seemed to work much harder than the legals. I'm not comparing them to just Mexicans, though, or even Spanish speaking folks. My non-scientific observation was based on this: When I was down there working, it was during a construction boom. The locals knew they could go just about anywhere and get work, so they tended to take it for granted. They didn't seem to care much about whether their employer thought they were doing a good job or not. The illegals, on the other hand, either didn't know that jobs were easy to come by or, for them, jobs weren't easy to come by. Thus, they busted their balls to make sure no one could question their work ethic. There was a palpable difference. The same might have been true of illegal Irish or Estonian workers, but they didn't happen to work at the construction sites I worked at.

Again, I don't pretend that this is a scientific survey. It's just what I saw.