Corruption in Argentina

[QUOTE=Rock Harders]Mongers,

This corruption is prevalent in both the private and public sectors; in the private sector nearly every single person selling you something over the long term will attempt to screw you whether it be through deceptive price raising or shortchanging quantity of product. In the public sector, every level is thoroughly corrupt, whether it be the garbage man, police, politicians, or public health workers. They all either steal public funds or solicit and accept bribes. The corruption is so deeply ingrained in the culture and society that the people hardly blink an eye when $800,000 USD shows up in a suitcase meant for the future president or when $80,000 USD is mysteriously found in the bathroom of the office of the Minister of Economy. Can you imagine if this amount of undocumented cash was discovered in the hands or connected to a prominant policitian or minister in the USA or Europe? That person would be in jail for a long, long time, in Argentina they elect that person President or appoint their husband to a highly paid gnocchi job.

How about the inflation index? Could their possibly be anything more dishonest than the rubbish that the INDEC publishes? The INDEC, which is a puppet of the Kirchners, estimates inflation is 11% when in fact it is 3X higher. On another issue, the Argentina's external debt has risen to levels HIGHER than what they were at the time of the 2002 default. Argentina doesn't care what interest rate they have to pay to finance new bonds because they know within a few years they will just default again anyway and stop making payments.

The Argentines have nobody but themselves to blame for this corrupt third world quagmire they have created. They have a culture of corruption here because they tolerate a culture of corruption. They know that lying and stealing are immoral, they do have bibles here, as they are all "catholics", yet they engage in it as a society and they tolerate it from their peers. The people seeking high public office in Argentina are simply seeking a license to steal and enrich themselves and their associates through said graft and corruption. My former boss down here used to always tell me in reference to the Argentines, "they are so stupid they do not know they are stupid".

Rock Harders[/QUOTE]The talk about public, ie. Government, lying and cheating, leads me to relate the truth about the gas supply. I couldn't figure out why my stove was so slow to heat water and next to impossible to cook stir fried food. One of my friend's son-in-law is fairly senior in the overseeing authority and I chanced to ask him, presuming that it was simply a lower calorific gas. Damn right, but not naturally occurring. What the base bastards are doing is pumping common air into the gas supply and diluting the supply. As gas has become more difficult, rather than increasing the tariff, they have pushed more air into the mix. Some days it is impossible to get a full flame, so it is obviously a moveable feast. I think that is venal to the extreme. But seems to work at a political level.

Argento

[QUOTE=Rock Harders]Mongers,

I have been living and doing business here for over three years now, and can without a doubt testify that Argentines are the most dishonest people I have encountered in any of the 25 or so countries I have visited. As my former friend DudeinBA once told me, they are simply "TRUTH CHALLENGED". I have visited Colombia, Paraguay, Brasil, Bolivia, Uruguay, Peru, and Chile and Argentina is the only one where I have to watch every little detail anytime money is involved. When I travel to these other countries, I have to constantly remind myself that I am not in Argentina anymore and that I can relax and let my guard down a bit when it comes to issues involving money.

This corruption is prevalent in both the private and public sectors; in the private sector nearly every single person selling you something over the long term will attempt to screw you whether it be through deceptive price raising or shortchanging quantity of product. In the public sector, every level is thoroughly corrupt, whether it be the garbage man, police, politicians, or public health workers. They all either steal public funds or solicit and accept bribes. The corruption is so deeply ingrained in the culture and society that the people hardly blink an eye when $800,000 USD shows up in a suitcase meant for the future president or when $80,000 USD is mysteriously found in the bathroom of the office of the Minister of Economy. Can you imagine if this amount of undocumented cash was discovered in the hands or connected to a prominant policitian or minister in the USA or Europe? That person would be in jail for a long, long time, in Argentina they elect that person President or appoint their husband to a highly paid gnocchi job.

How about the inflation index? Could their possibly be anything more dishonest than the rubbish that the INDEC publishes? The INDEC, which is a puppet of the Kirchners, estimates inflation is 11% when in fact it is 3X higher. On another issue, the Argentina's external debt has risen to levels HIGHER than what they were at the time of the 2002 default. Argentina doesn't care what interest rate they have to pay to finance new bonds because they know within a few years they will just default again anyway and stop making payments.

The Argentines have nobody but themselves to blame for this corrupt third world quagmire they have created. They have a culture of corruption here because they tolerate a culture of corruption. They know that lying and stealing are immoral, they do have bibles here, as they are all "catholics", yet they engage in it as a society and they tolerate it from their peers. The people seeking high public office in Argentina are simply seeking a license to steal and enrich themselves and their associates through said graft and corruption. My former boss down here used to always tell me in reference to the Argentines, "they are so stupid they do not know they are stupid".

That said, Buenos Aires is one of my favorite cities in the world, and is surely one of the most entertaining and energetic. It truly is the wild west here, there are almost no rules here, it is still cheaper than other places on it level, and there is a ton of cheap (pros) and accessible (nonpros) pussy around. It truly is a damn good place to live as an expat, and I would not trade the last three years of my life here for anything.

Suerte,

Rock Harders[/QUOTE]So, one should think you're on the "smart side".

Looking at your posts seems like a good joke.

You resemble more an Homero Simpsons on exile, mourning forever, than a happy and intelligent fellow. But O.K., I may be wrong because your are the smart guy who knows we're all stupid, so go on shiting everybody. That must be a demonstration of intelligence... (¡?)

[QUOTE=Rock Harders]My former boss down here used to always tell me in reference to the Argentines, "they are so stupid they do not know they are stupid".

Rock Harders[/QUOTE]Point well on the way to be proved again.

Argento

[QUOTE=Argento]Point well on the way to be proved again.

Argento[/QUOTE]Should I think, too, that insulting from behind a P. C. Must be another demonstration of intelligence?

My ex, bless her heart, 100% Portenya used to sit in her apartment where she had cable and internet she was stealing from fibertel, cooking on a stove that was heated by gas she was being charged a lower rate for because her apartment was somehow on record for being unoccupied, spending money that she had never been taxed for because she had never, ever reported it for over ten years, talking about the corruption of the politicos.

Once I walked out of Habana forgetting to pay the bill, I had been sitting outside waiting for her, when I saw her I just stood up and left. A couple blocks away I remembered I hadn't paid, she was astounded when I turned around and went back. The really amazing thing was so were the girls at the Habana.

A very good friend of mine there wanted a laptop so he had it sent to me when I was coming down. He was astounded that I brought it and didn't want payment for bringing it.

The only place in the world I ever got counterfeit money from an ATM was in BsAs at the Banco Francais in Colegialis. I saw it was trucho and walked in to address it, the managers answer "Imposible" nothing was done.

As far as Provincia, when my buddy got married less people showed up at the reception than he had planned for. His new sister in law demanded and received a rebate from the caterer. She stuffed it in her purse, I asked my buddy about it later, she never gave it to him.

It's ingrained, received with their mothers milk, everybody given the chance will screw you so you are justified in screwing them first. They don't see it as screwing, it's just how things work. Just like boxing, protect yourself at all times.

I'm not saying it's good or bad, like Rock I really loved living in BsAs and can't wait to get back but to say that their understanding of honesty isn't a tad different from American or European (with the exception of Italy) practices is delusional. The funny part to me and it is funny, like a nation of three year olds it is always "they" never "us". We are the good people, they are the bad. Remember the IMF debt, the reason given for the default essentially was "You knew we wouldn't be able to afford to pay this back when you gave it to us, so it's really your fault for loaning us the money."

Alexander Solzhenitsyn, who has just died, has been the subject of many articles in the last few weeks. The current issue of 'The Economist' quotes him as saying that the only response to authoritarian government by intelligent people is;

"DON'T LIE! DON'T PARTICIPATE IN LIES! DON'T SUPPORT A LIE!"

And that in a nutshell is the kernel of truth responsible for this sad country.

Argento

[QUOTE=Daddy Rulz]her Remember the IMF debt, the reason given for the default essentially was "You knew we wouldn't be able to afford to pay this back when you gave it to us, so it's really your fault for loaning us the money."[/QUOTE]Time's shortly coming up for them to pay Chavez his interest and when they don't have the dough, I wonder what the response will be, both from Chavez wanting his usurious interest and the Kirchners when they can't and won't pay. Might just cause a rift or two in the up to now, socialist harmony. My guess is no more kissy kissy.

Argento

[QUOTE=Argento]Time's shortly coming up for them to pay Chavez his interest and when they don't have the dough, I wonder what the response will be, both from Chavez wanting his usurious interest and the Kirchners when they can't and won't pay. Might just cause a rift or two in the up to now, socialist harmony. My guess is no more kissy kissy.

Argento[/QUOTE]In the BA Herald of yesterday it was written that Chavez sold his bonds already. So whoever they have to pay, it won't be Chavez.

[QUOTE=Seaman]In the BA Herald of yesterday it was written that Chavez sold his bonds already. So whoever they have to pay, it won't be Chavez.[/QUOTE]Yes, it was reported in all the locals. The rider is of course, that Chavez sold them on with a guarantee. He in the end, bears the responsibility for a no-show. And with the bond discounts, I am sure he made 4 or 5%. Not bad dough on a turn in a few days and in U$ Dollars. U$50 or 60 million is serious dough.

Argento

[QUOTE=Mike Cockburn]The ex-owners of Aerolineas, Marsans, surely commited many mistakes, but how can you run an airline when they strike ALL the time. Well, they couldn't, so Marsans left.[/QUOTE]The history of Aerolíneas since privatization is a complex one, and involved different owners and operators such as Iberia, American Airlines, LAN Chile and such.

I agree that endlessly striking cannot be supported by any company, but unfortunately it's the only way workers have to voice up their claims. If the work-relations courts worked as they should, other negotiation channels would be preferable by all actors (provided that all actors behaved in good faith, something I don't think is the case in the Aerolíneas case since, among other things, Marsans oversold tickets)

Andres

[QUOTE=Mike Cockburn]Even if a country is short on cash, the basic needs must be fulfilled first.[/QUOTE]That's desirable, but. Who pays for that? And where the money comes from?

Andres

[QUOTE=Geo Eye]This is true, Mr. Harders and it is one of the many things wrong with Argentines.

I think their biggest problem is they are so closed-minded, they cannot think outside the box. It is like they walk around with blinder on, not aware of the outside world.[/QUOTE]It would be much more worthy to inquire abut the causes of Argentines' behavior in general than to tag them.

Andres

[QUOTE=Big Bob 7]This is the classic Argentine response. I have heard this in many, many conversations. "Argentina is perfect." No it's not because of these reasons. "Then if it's not great why don't you leave." It rarely occurs to Argentines that foreigners might choose to stay in their country in spite of them rather than because of them.[/QUOTE]I don't think that Julio asked it with that intention.

It's hard sometimes to understand some attitudes, specially from a guy who is a businessman in Argentina since very long and who pictures a very grim reality of the country. Something doesn't fit:

1) If you tag Argentines as very corrupt people but you do business for years and years there, chances are that you are adapting to local rules and becoming corrupt too (or at least allowing corruption to pass by and not reporting it)

2) If you think that the country is going to collapse soon, then it's hard to understand how are you still doing business there.

3) If you are VERY assertive that the country is going to collapse soon, then many Argentines will catch that you are wishing that to happen and that you have a stake in that aftermath becoming true. Many guys from the financial sector fit that profile, the ones who have been predicting the collapse since 2002 and who miss the golden days under the Menem terms.

Complaining about Argentina and Argentines is OK, and in fact I agree on half of the comments I read here (especially on Argentines not taking responsibility of their actions) but if someone is so bitterly annoyed by Argentines' behavior and still living there, then he has a problem and that casts doubt about either his mental health or his true intentions and objectives.

Andres

[QUOTE=Rock Harders]Mongers,

I have been living and doing business here for over three years now, and can without a doubt testify that Argentines are the most dishonest people I have encountered in any of the 25 or so countries I have visited.[/QUOTE]Then you haven't visited Russia or India. Argentina is very corrupt, no doubt about it, but I heard some horror stories about Russia that are too much for Argentine corruption standards.

My point is that exaggerating the corruption level of Argentina takes credibility from your words. Paraguay is way more corrupt than Argentina.

Andres

There is always money.

Like when you say "I can't, I don't have time". Everybody has time! 24h per day. It is always a question of priorities.

Don't you always have money for food and clothes no matter how little money you've got.

Isn't it more important to provide food and education, rather than building a tren bala or other big projects. Having poor people is an indirect cost, it is not only a social debt, but it is a running cost, converted in higher crime rate and low productivity.

[QUOTE=Andres]That's desirable, but. Who pays for that? And where the money comes from?

Andres[/QUOTE]