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[QUOTE=WorldTravel69;434883]Don't you love all those Indian Casinos?
The unemployment started under Bush.
Oh, how we forget![/QUOTE]Did you forget the "Prince of [NOPARSE]Hopenchange"[/NOPARSE] was supposed to fix the unemployment problem? Who knew his plan was to shrink the workforce?
[B][size=+1]All Aboard for the Obamacare Train Wreck[/size][/B]
[QUOTE=Esten;434890]
- Millions more Americans will have health insurance.
- Insurance companies can no longer impose lifetime coverage limits on your insurance.
- Insurance companies will have limitations on annual caps.
- Insurers can no longer tell kids with preexisting conditions that they'll insure them except for the preexisting condition.
- Insurance companies can't drop you when you get sick.
- You can stay on your parents' insurance until you're 26.
- Seniors get $250 towards closing the "doughnut hole" in their prescription drug coverage.
- No more co-pays for preventative services in Medicare.
- Small businesses get big tax credits—up to 50 percent of premium costs—for offering health insurance to their workers.
- Insurers with unusually high administrative costs have to offer rebates to their customers, and every insurance company has to reveal how much it spends on overhead.[/QUOTE]Montana Senator Max Baucus, who led the effort in Congress to pass Obamacare, is now referring to it as a "coming train wreck".
Whom to believe?
[QUOTE=BlackShirt;434880]I am just watching Hannity on Fox, and the ranting and claims are just outrageous...Hannity, the shameless manipulator of disinformation and fear while raking in the millions. Only in America.[/QUOTE]I agree, which is why I don't watch Hannity.
However, your description also applies to a lot of liberal leftists out there, i.e.
[i]I am just watching [strike]Hannity[/strike] Al Sharpton on [strike]Fox[/strike] MSNBC, and the ranting and claims are just outrageous...[strike]Hannity[/strike] Al Sharpton, the shameless manipulator of disinformation and fear while raking in the millions. Only in America.[/i]
[QUOTE=Esten;434890]Obama ran on health care reform and he delivered.[/QUOTE]Really? Because during his 1st presidential campaign I don't remember him even mentioning that he was going to completely rework the country's health care system once in office.
[QUOTE=Jackson;434895]Really? Because during his 1st presidential campaign I don't remember him even mentioning that he was going to completely rework the country's health care system once in office.[/QUOTE]Obama supported universal coverage, uniform national rules, and expanding employer's role in providing health benefits. Maybe you missed it. It's not a complete re-work because it's still based on private insurance, Medicaid and Medicare.
[URL]http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Publications/Fund-Reports/2008/Oct/The-2008-Presidential-Candidates-Health-Reform-Proposals--Choices-for-America.aspx[/URL]
BTW, kudos on not watching Hannity. And I mostly agree with you about Sharpton.
[QUOTE=Punter127;434893]Montana Senator Max Baucus, who led the effort in Congress to pass Obamacare, is now referring to it as a "coming train wreck".
Whom to believe?[/QUOTE]Not folks like Hannity and Punter, that's for sure. Both use misapplied quotes to spread deception. The context of Baucus' quote was in the funding shortfall (due to Republicans) to promote awareness during implementation. Not the bill itself. Sibelius is pursuing an alternate route for this funding.
[URL]http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2013/05/24/the_secret_history_of_max_baucus_s_train_wreck_quote.html[/URL]
WT69, are you really going to stand there and tell me because a few tribes have casinos the Native American population has prospered under the benevolent care of the Federal Government? Have you ever visited a reservation and I don't mean the casino?
WT69, lets not be disingenuous, 0 Republicans in either the House or the Senate voted for ObamaCare when it passed in both chambers. The vote you refer to was in 2013 regarding funding and NOT the original bill.
Black Shirt, where did you get the idea that 70% of bankruptcies were caused by healthcare coverage. I would like to see some supporting data. I never heard of that as a cause for filing for bankruptcy protection. Normally it is under capitalization.
Esten, your boy has reduced unemployment from 7.6% to 7.4% in July by creating 168,000 jobs, of course what he did not mention was 986,000 people dropped out of the labor pool because they could not find a job. What a great guy Obama is. The only reason the unemployment rate went down was not because the economy is improving but because of the number of people unable to find a job and dropping out of the workforce. Might explain the increase in welfare and food stamps. Yep, get them out of a job and on the federal plantation.
By the way 100% of employee healthcare costs to small business is currently deductible. Wow what a guy he is going to CUT small business to only 50%.
ObamaCare will never work for one simple reason. Young people are not going to purchase healthcare insurance with the new higher premiums to underwrite older people's health care costs. This is a cost shifting scheme which will not work. Not to mention the IRS will simply not have the ability to track down and collect the penalty from all those younger folks. So where is all the funding going to come from and they cut one funding mechanism for this monster after another?
Many companies have successfully cut working hours to the 30 hour limit. Liberal's seem to forget, companies are not like the government, when they run out of money they go out of business, while when the government runs out it just prints more.
I thank when the new IRS chief stands before the House sub-committee and says thanks but no thanks I'll keep my government plan rather than go on ObamaCare for myself and my employees pretty much says it all.
FYI, Esten & Black Shirt, have you noticed federal employees are not going to be affected by ObamaCare, they get to keep their federal healthcare plan. It is only the dumb masses who get it shoved down their throats, while the liberal favorites get waivers.
If ObamaCare is good enough for the every day citizen then it's good enough for everyone, federal employees, The House, The Senate and the Prez, NO WAIVERS.
[QUOTE=Esten;434896]
Not folks like Hannity and Punter, that's for sure. Both use misapplied quotes to spread deception. The context of Baucus' quote was in the funding shortfall (due to Republicans) to promote awareness during implementation. Not the bill itself. Sibelius is pursuing an alternate route for this funding.
[URL]http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2013/05/24/the_secret_history_of_max_baucus_s_train_wreck_quote.html[/URL][/QUOTE]The reason is irrelevant, a train wreck is still a train wreck.
[URL]http://townhall.com/columnists/davidspady/2013/08/02/all-aboard-for-the-obamacare-train-wreck-n1655364[/URL]
[QUOTE=Doppelganger;434897]Black Shirt, where did you get the idea that 70% of bankruptcies were caused by healthcare coverage. I would like to see some supporting data. I never heard of that as a cause for filing for bankruptcy protection. Normally it is under capitalization.
FYI, Esten & Black Shirt, have you noticed federal employees are not going to be affected by ObamaCare, they get to keep their federal healthcare plan. It is only the dumb masses who get it shoved down their throats, while the liberal favorites get waivers.
If ObamaCare is good enough for the every day citizen then it's good enough for everyone, federal employees, The House, The Senate and the Prez, NO WAIVERS.[/QUOTE]The 70%, I can't seem to track it down. But a study released in 2007 by a joint study by Harvard Law & Medical Schools, reported 62.1 of bankruptcies were medically related. Just google it. Many credit card bankruptcies are actually people maxing out their credit cards for medical reasons.
I agree with your other points, but it is abuse that BOTH sides are responsible.
In general, my opinion and my experience is that society in America has gone from a being generous, big hearted and friendly to one where people have become fearful, distrustful, and selfish. This is where the self destruction begins as families and communities have become divisive and dysfunctional. It may be that it is a natural self-inflicted evolutionary cycle. And like any type of healing process, nothing can get going until the victim (us) is willing to admit that they are sick and needs help. And ObamaCare is a good example of where we are at this point. We have a serious problem, we are sick, everybody knows it, yet we can only shout and call each other names. At the core, we just don't want be be responsible for others, we don't want to share. People who are doing well pretends that there is only one world, theirs.
"Don't knock on my door, I don't want to be bother. Leave me alone, it's my money".
In Los Angeles, I live in a very nice upper middle-class neighborhood, Clean, quiet, beautiful landscape gardens, at least 2/3 cars in every garage. A wave from afar, a quick hello, when walking the dog. But you get the vibes, " I'm busy and I really don't have the time to know you well. I have everything I need, You have cancer, sorry, too bad but I have no time for your problems. No, I cannot walk your dog while you are away".
Where did we go wrong? A new kind of barbarian.
I do not see a train wreck in Massachusetts.
So, why does their health care work for all?
[QUOTE=Punter127;434898]The reason is irrelevant, a train wreck is still a train wreck.
[URL]http://townhall.com/columnists/davidspady/2013/08/02/all-aboard-for-the-obamacare-train-wreck-n1655364[/URL][/QUOTE]
Black Shirt I agree there is plenty of blame to go around but I think the Dems / Liberals get more than half IMHO.
As far as what went wrong, it started when liberals wanted to have the government start taking care of people and removing those functions from the local folks. Of course when they did that they took the money as well as the control and pretty soon the people making the decisions regarding what "needed to be done" and who "needed help" was being made by people with no idea of what was really needed locally.
People at the local level, and I'm not talking about government at the local level, know what is needed better than some politician at the national level looking to fill his pockets, hand out favors and get re-elected.
The federal government needs to get our of "helping people" and turn it back over to the private sector. Term limits would be a great thing was well and a VAST REDUCTION in the federal government agencies as well. We don't need the Dept. Of Energy, Dept. Of Education, and only need a very scaled back version of the EPA just to start.
The era I grew up in we did not lock the doors to our homes when we left to go shopping; if you wanted the keys to the car they were either in the ignition or over the visor; we learned science, math and English in school; if you acted up in school you got paddled and when you got home it was even worse; we respected our elders; the use of curse words (this for Davie) were only spoken by low class people and if used in polite company you could get smacked; and I was fourteen years old before I realized damn yankee was two words. The churches, charities and shelters took care of the indigent and there were not nearly as many as today. We had lazy bums back then not "misunderstood" or "challenged" people. If you did not work there was something wrong with you unless you were old enough to retire. It was very different back then, even Jack Kennedy told the nation "ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country". Times have changed and not for the better.
[QUOTE=WorldTravel69;434902]I do not see a train wreck in Massachusetts.
So, why does their health care work for all?[/QUOTE]WT, first of all take a look at the increase in cost for healthcare which is being paid and not everyone has health insurance in the Peoples Republic of Massachusetts.
[QUOTE=Doppelganger;434904]Black Shirt I agree there is plenty of blame to go around but I think the Dems / Liberals get more than half IMHO.
As far as what went wrong, it started when liberals wanted to have the government start taking care of people and removing those functions from the local folks. Of course when they did that they took the money as well as the control and pretty soon the people making the decisions regarding what "needed to be done" and who "needed help" was being made by people with no idea of what was really needed locally.
People at the local level, and I'm not talking about government at the local level, know what is needed better than some politician at the national level looking to fill his pockets, hand out favors and get re-elected.
The federal government needs to get our of "helping people" and turn it back over to the private sector. Term limits would be a great thing was well and a VAST REDUCTION in the federal government agencies as well. We don't need the Dept. Of Energy, Dept. Of Education, and only need a very scaled back version of the EPA just to start.
The era I grew up in we did not lock the doors to our homes when we left to go shopping; if you wanted the keys to the car they were either in the ignition or over the visor; we learned science, math and English in school; if you acted up in school you got paddled and when you got home it was even worse; we respected our elders; the use of curse words (this for Davie) were only spoken by low class people and if used in polite company you could get smacked; and I was fourteen years old before I realized damn yankee was two words. The churches, charities and shelters took care of the indigent and there were not nearly as many as today. We had lazy bums back then not "misunderstood" or "challenged" people. If you did not work there was something wrong with you unless you were old enough to retire. It was very different back then, even Jack Kennedy told the nation "ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country". Times have changed and not for the better.[/QUOTE]Actual today's "Liberals" are not the descendents of the classic liberals of the 19th century but of the Progressives of the early 20th century. They highjacked the term to provide respectability to their bad ideas.
Don B.
[QUOTE=Doppelganger;434904]The federal government needs to get our of "helping people" and turn it back over to the private sector. [/QUOTE]In healthcare, the private sector has come up short. It leaves tens of millions uninsured because they can't afford health insurance, and shuts out people with pre-existing conditions. Millions of Americans go bankrupt trying to pay their medical bills.
Where is the logic in keeping a system where we wait until people have medical emergencies, and then need costly interventions that cost taxpayers $$$$$.
[QUOTE=Esten;434908]In healthcare, the private sector has come up short. It leaves tens of millions uninsured because they can't afford health insurance, and shuts out people with pre-existing conditions. Millions of Americans go bankrupt trying to pay their medical bills.
Where is the logic in keeping a system where we wait until people have medical emergencies, and then need costly interventions that cost taxpayers $$$$$.[/QUOTE]Esten, you make my point for me in such elegant terms.
Under ObamaCare millions will still be without "affordable" healthcare. Affordable for whom? It is not going to be "affordable" for those younger Americans whose insurance premiums will rise in some cases 300%. How exactly is it the Federal Government's place to decide what is "affordable" or the Federal Government's place to intervene when people place themselves in bankruptcy for failing to adequately prepare. What's next, you spend more than you earn and declare bankruptcy and now it's the Fed's "duty" come rescue you. Every heard the term personal responsibility? Funny I never saw anything in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution of the United States or in the Bill of Rights guaranteeing healthcare much less "affordable" healthcare to the populace.
Time for the history lesson AGAIN:
Esten, the private system was working fine until the mid to late 1960's when the federal government involved itself in healthcare with the advent of Medicare and Medicaid.
At the time we had a three tier healthcare delivery system:
Physician offices and small clinics were the first or primary tier and the least expensive level of care for common problems.
Community hospitals and large clinics were the second or secondary tier providing services for more serious injuries require surgery or more advanced treatment or intervention, while not as inexpensive as the first tier still within the budget of most people at the time.
Large hospitals, university hospitals and teaching hospitals were the third or tertiary tier providing the most advance care and at the greatest cost.
Enter the all-knowing, all-seeing federal government, to wit Medicare and Medicaid, ivory tower types decided it was less expensive to provide services in rural settings than more urban settings and discounted payments by these federal systems accordingly. For some strange reason they thought the cost of a syringe, bandage, iodine, and other normal supplies cost less to purchase from the same vendors in an rural setting than an urban setting which was totally false. They were not as all-knowing as his majesty Obama I guess.
The result of this error was the near total destruction of the first two tiers of medical service delivery, which left only the third tier for delivery of all services which was the most expensive level of care.
The federal folks finally figured out they had made an error in reimbursement policy but about 5 years too late.
Esten, it's not the government's responsibility to provide "affordable healthcare" or any healthcare, except for those in the service who the fed directly employs. The fed is the reason we have the problem we have now. It is impossible to provide the level of healthcare the liberals want to every American, not withstanding those who refuse care, at a cost which will not bankrupt the nation.
If you can afford it then you can have it, if you can't you don't. The federal government has no business in healthcare. Time to get back to the thing which built this country - self reliance and personal responsibility. I have no wish to live in the Peoples Republic of American.
[size=+1][B]'Cheapest' ObamaCare Plans Aren't So Cheap After All[/B][/size]
[URL]http://news.investors.com/politics/080213-666235-cheap-obamacare-twice-as-costly-as-existing-plans.htm[/URL]
Did someone say [B]“Affordable Care Act”[/B].