American Politics during the Obama Presidency

[QUOTE=WorldTravel69;435472]

What is funny it that the Republicans are the Party of Hawks, but now they have become Doves. What do you suppose is the reason?

I believe Racist reasons.

[/QUOTE]The reason - they learned from their mistakes. To understand what's happening, you need to separate the libertarian / tea party wing of the Republican party from the establishment types like McCain and Graham.

I would have "liked" your post, except that I think you might be serious when you say "Racist reasons." Which would make no sense whatsoever BTW.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;435475]My generalization was a response to your generalization, that Republican free market capitalists don't give a shit about others. First that's not true for most. [/QUOTE]Your last two words are what I'm talking about. It may or may not apply to most, but there are Republican free market capitalists who almost never support government involvement in something which does not directly or indirectly benefit themselves. Their positions on government initiatives and spending are highly predictable. Their focus in life is their bottom line.

Please, spare us a break about "but they donate to charity". These gestures are a pittance to the real impact that government programs can have, and are completely irrelevant when it comes to issues like Syria.

[QUOTE=Esten;435488]...but there are Republican free market capitalists who almost never support government involvement in something which does not directly or indirectly benefit themselves.[/QUOTE]"[I]I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money.[/I]"

― Thomas Sowell, Barbarians inside the Gates and Other Controversial Essays.

Obama's approval ratings are so low that Kenyans are accusing him of being born in the United States!

TL.

I haven't posted in this thread in quite some time because the mental masturbation that goes on here can be quite boring. But I, too, have a big mouth and can't always be silent.

I'm watching people argue the same tired crap every time, basically mouthing the same thing their respective parties mouth to the country in general. From one month to the next, basically the amount of time I give to this thread, it's always the very same thing. It's almost funny, except it hurts to watch such polarity, particularly among people that are often friends in the real world. Particularly when they continue to think they are a part of the same country, when it seems to be in name only.

Of course, the arguing is not surprising, given that rarely do people really look beyond those who espouse their own beliefs to see if their own beliefs are valid. There is rarely much talk about finding the truth, but rather ensuring the each person's "side" wins the "war" that is currently being "fought" socially and economically.

Both of the two parties that are in power are dead wrong, because neither one really gives a crap about anything other than being in power. The back-and-forth that has been going on since Lincoln's time shows that.

We have people in this forum who think the "Conservatives" are right, as has been mentioned with politicians under that creed who garner money for the very things their party supposedly doesn't believe in, using political might to ensure that their farmers are taken care of by the government. Ensuring that their pet industries are taken care of, etc. Not to mention more recent NeoCons who think the US should be mighty and powerful so that all other nations will tremble at our might, while that very attitude is contrary to what the Founding Fathers fought for to begin with. We have people who think the "Liberals" are correct as they steal money from the hands of those who work hard for it to give to those who (for whatever reason) don't work to support their own families and who say that's OK, because they "deserve" to live at a certain level.

The "right to pursue happiness" has been morphed into the belief that it should read "the right to BE happy." Each person makes his or her own happiness, not some monolithic bureaucracy that has been created and guided over such a long time by politicians who have made their livelihood out of the political game of promising people anything and delivering some of the worst of it.

People who say the South is poor because of more recent Republican mis-management seem to forget about the terrible war that was fought a long time ago because a Republican decided that it wasn't right to let the country split up when it was so young, and those same Republicans who came down from an industrialized North to take advantage of the Southerners who wanted freedom from what they saw as tyranny and lost a real war. Time has reversed the actual centers of Republican and Democratic bases, but not all of the damage that was done in those times. You can talk about slavery all you want and the depths from which Lincoln supposedly rescued us, but look at countries like Brasil, for example, who managed to end their times of slavery quite peaceably and allow their people to intermix peacefully in modern times as a result. Of course, they had other reasons for not advancing so quickly, but that's another issue.

BTW. The country was on the path to ridding itself of slavery before Lincoln decided he had to maintain the integrity of the Union AT ALL COSTS, but that wasn't good enough. Can't let people decide their own fate, and less than 100 years after the country fought a brutal war to free itself from a tyranny overseas Lincoln provides his own brand of pain and tyranny. But even Democrats think Lincoln was a hero, and the result was terrible race relations and a good half of the country (at the time) that was left in economic ruins for a long time afterward.

Then people want to say things like "Texas is a backward state" as well. I find that kind of interesting as Texas actually has one of the largest economies in the world. 14th, right behind Russia and right in front of Australia. California is higher, but Texas is solvent and California is close to not being so. Does it ever occur to anyone that Texas seems like a "backwards" state because it has a ton of Mexican (and Korean, Vietnamese, Chinese, African, etc) immigrants almost all of whom end up better economically than where they came from originally? Many people seem to skew numbers to make it seem like Texas is backward, but I wonder if they have actually spent any real time in the state? Also, does it not occur to them that a lot of Texans enjoy living in rural settings, in small towns, rather than in big cities? We have the land and the temperament to live like that. Of course, we have at least a couple of the most successful big cities in the nation as well. But I've worked in smaller towns in Texas and they are anything but "backwards." Mexicans, blacks, whites, Vietnamese, (name the original nationality) all pretty much living peacefully together and enjoying their life as they want it. Prices are also SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper in Texas than other states. Hell, I owned a 3000 square foot house in Houston, 5 bedrooms, three bathrooms, corner lot. Something like that in California would probably go for upwards of $1,000,000 when I bought my house in Texas, and I paid $80,000.

Funny thing is, almost all of the legal immigrants despise the illegal immigrants because of their drain on resources, and the fact that they rarely integrate into society but rather remain islolated and refuse to share with the rest of the citizens.

What exactly IS backward, and why do people feel it is their right to change things on a national level to make things in Texas less "Backward", as an example.

You are all hoodwinked by the politicians, who have told you all how much you need them to be successful. What a total load of crap.

After having lived in Argentina for seven years now, I've seen what dependence on, and BELIEF in, idiocy gets you. People here don't even argue any more for different forms of belief. They argue between differing views of PERONISM. Very few here doubt that Peronism is the "correct" belief, it's just that they have never had their "Peron" again. Cristina is only bad insofar as she has carried the country away from the "good" Peronism into the "bad". Hell, one of the funniest campaign signs I've seen here is literally two guys who are running for office and at the top of the signs says "El Buen Peronismo". LOL. But kind of how I feel when I hear people talking about "good government" in the States. Talk about an oxymoron...

The Paraguayans and other MERCOSUR citizens come here to work while Argentinos collect their money from the government and figure out how to live on that paltry sum because mama Cristina (and other "Parents", be they Mom or Dad) know best while the leaders of the country get richer and the poorer get poorer. I pass healthy young guys on the street begging for money with babies in the arms (babies paid for by the government, BTW) while my brothers-in-law work their butts off at jobs these guys wouldn't touch because it would mean work for them. They use their babies as tools to get more money, much like I saw in India where it is not uncommon for the very poor to cripple their children to get more sympathy and make them better beggars.

While I was in high school, and for years after, I worked right alongside the Mexicans who came over to get construction jobs. I surely didn't feel like I was working beneath myself. I was young and could do so, but was smart enough to better myself so I didn't have to continue to work like that. I sure as hell didn't want someone to take money from others to pay me so I didn't have to work at drudge jobs.

Somehow Americans, both "Liberals" and "Conservatives" have forgotten what "good democracy" is. They have forgotten that living means providing for yourself at all costs to you, yourself, because that is what life means. Not to be coddled and told you don't have to work so hard because others haven't had to. They have forgotten what pride means. Pride doesn't come from others doing things so you can have a better life, pride comes from doing those things yourself and even in failure you can feel pride that you TRIED.

It's not using the government to get what is good for "lawmaker's" constituents.

It's not voting for your party because some in the party are good, ignoring those who are really bad.

It's not stealing money from the hands of those who create wealth to give to those who feel they "deserve" to live the same lives with little or no work. If you feel that, take it out of your own pocket and make the help PERSONAL. Otherwise it's too damned easy. You also end up creating a needy class because humans will be human.

It's not manipulating the market (I'm not talking about the stock markets, but the "real" market) so that one industry can survive terrible, stupid decisions and go on to make more, just because it may be a high-profile industry and a tiny percentage of jobs are "saved". Particularly when those jobs are such over-paid monstrosities that the same issue will come about again and again, multiplied with the bad decisions that that industry continues to make.

It's not about forcing people to buy healthcare whether they want it or not so that everyone can have the same crappy healthcare that's too expensive and a near monopoly thanks to that very same government supporting doctors who think they are gods and don't want to see their outrageous earnings reduced (not to mention insurers who don't have god-complexes, but are just greedy). Show me ONE monopoly that survived the market without active support from the government. The doctors have a good one in the US all tied up with their legislators. (I'm still waiting for someone to give me an example of this one, and I've asked many times but no one seems to supply an answer). The free market would never abide such high costs of medicine and health costs and has gone from a country where we could most all pay for our own care (this from my grandmother who was very poor and raised two sons by herself in the 50's, vs my ex-wife who has now one son to care for and can't pay her portion of ANYTHING, much less healthcare) to a country where you have to spend a significant portion of your income to insure medical treatment against the possibility of needing a doctor to blow your nose for you. Idiots, every one of you who can't see the reality of this one. (Sorry, I don't mean to be insulting, but for Christ's sake people WAKE THE FUCK UP!

What democracy should be is the right for everyone to ensure that the government does the maximum to maintain fair laws, that NO ONE is better or more above the law than anyone else, and beyond that the government has no right to take money from one person to give to another because that impersonal instrument of tyranny can't possibly make a fair decision. Even democracy does not give that right, because it is no longer democracy when people vote to give themselves money and things, as opposed to voting to provide a government fair to all. But politicians have managed to twist people's mind with all manner of idiocy to believe that the government needs to do more than provide the framework within which we all live. It has to decide who is deserving and who is not, of deep reserves of wealth to be paid out.

All of you who think that the government should "give" to needy people are among the worst of all, right next to those who think the power of the US should be used to make the rest of the world bend to our will and take money from the people to see that happen as well. Helping people should be a PERSONAL decision, should be targeted at those who truly need, those of your family or friends who are in trouble. The government cannot make such a decision because the government should be impersonal. NO ONE should be held above another as more deserving by an institution that is supposed to remain independent from such things.

I speak from personal experience on this. I have helped many people from the goodness of my heart, not at government gunpoint. I have been rewarded with watching people recover from personal disasters, and I have been shit on by people who took advantage of me. Guess which ones deserved my help, and will receive it again if they need it? But thanks to a tyrannical government who says it is better at determining such things, the amount of money I can spend to help those who deserve it has diminished, and I have no personal control over how money taken by me from the government is used to help those very asses that I know don't give a rat's ass about bettering their lives but are looking for a way to avoid work and personal responsibility.

Even those with the best of intentions still suffer from the Law of Unintended Consequences. The government making those decisions merely amplifies the effect and makes things worse than they otherwise would be. If you are going to make mistakes like that, make it personal instead of trying to get the whole country screwed up as well.

I wonder if Lincoln rolls over in his grave at night realizing what evil he did in the name of keeping a country divided together, surely with good intent on his part (I.e, not tyranny, but protecting a near-"holy" Union, in his eyes), but not realizing at the time how far-reaching would be the unintended consequences of his actions.

But what the hell. The US is already lost and the battle between the two sides that goes on here is just a symptom of what's really happening there. The espousal of two archetype theories being bandied at one another while those actually in power laugh their asses off.

When the Black soldiers had to serve & fight in World War II, and then had to come back home to the Deep South. "Yes, sir", "Yes, ma'am". What were their thoughts, what did it mean to their self esteem? What were they fighting for? Until Mohammad Ali refused to fight the "white man' war", human dignity was non existent in America for the Black man. He was the entertainer, he was the shoe shine boy, he was the boxer. Easy to say, "go back to Africa", but they didn't want to come in the first place. So you are stuck with them. See how many games those Longhorns & Aggies can win with a "good ole boys" team?

Today percentage wise, who is the most poverty stricken, who has the most incarcerated, who has the most single parent households? Yeah, they are quite loud and in your face these days. One of them even became the President of the United States. Too much for you? But remember, they are still paying for our sins.

Wow Black Shirt. What sins, I wonder, did you do that you feel you, personally, have to pay for? Personally, I wasn't alive during World War II when black people were discriminated against. I wasn't wearing a white hood and hanging black folk as they were fighting for their lives. I didn't even WANT to fight Muhamad Ali!

I respect those who fought against injustice (on both sides, I might add, lest ye forget), I despise what most of them (and those who enable them) have become.

You mention the "deep south" like southerners are the only ones that hold prejudices, while not realizing how far most of them have gone away from that. You mention UT and the Aggies needing black people to get anywhere with their sports teams. And I just have to laugh. Is that the most of what contribtion you think they have made? And pointing out Obama as a good example of black men making it as far as the presidency...well, you must obviously be quite "liberal" and as immersed as the rest in the BS.

Of course, I was actually excited to an extent when Obama won the presidency, and imagine that, me a good ol' boy from Texas. I despised Bush for the way he handled his presidency in many ways. Imagine that, a good ol' boy from Texas. But Obama pissed me off the moment he went out of his way to use Chicago-style machine politics to get the stupidest health bill in the history of the US passed by a nearly tied congress and a populace that was largely against it beause he "knows" better than the rest of us. Well, imagine that, I didn't like what Obama did and most probably assume it's because I'm a good ol' boy from Texas. What a load of crap.

Black people have been loud and in the face of everyone for a long, long time. They have been right about a lot of things in the past, but the ones still on the bandwagon are no longer the followers of heroes like ML King and Muhamad Ali but rather Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and other idiots who have no interest whatsoever in the success of the "black" people, but rather in forwarding their own interests.

Giving "black" people things doesn't do them any good. How well did giving them a mule and 40 acres work out for them? What a joke. What they needed (and need) was real freedom. So we look at a race that was subjugated and then freed at force, to live among their very subjugators who then blamed them and hated them for the deaths of ther families. Among a people that weren't ready for the very people that were freed to live among them as equals. And yet, again, Brasilians are a fairly well integrated people. Things need to come in when people are ready for them, not when others say it's time. Are Americans just naturally racist, or is the manner in which the slaves were freed in the States the wrong way to go about it?

The only thing that will "free" the black people is for them to stand on their own two feet, to become productive members of society. People who talk about reparations after such are long time are ridiculous. People who talk about ANYONE alive in these days owning one freaking cent to anyone who had a slave in their ancestry is insane or looking for ways to ingratiate themselves with those very people who are not productive and ask for things. And I wonder how it is that other, hard-working races that come to the US can end up living just as well as others who have already been there, but "black" people just can't quite make it.

I've had many free black friends. I've had a couple friends that still live under the slave mentality, wanting their due from whitey. I prefer the guys who are free, every time, no matter their "race".

If you knew me, you'd probably think I was one of the least racist people you have ever known in your life. Hell, I married a terribly poor Paraguayan and treat her family lke they are my family, her younger sisters like my own children. I have helped people of different nationalities and races throughout my life, and I'm really tired of the racist card. Racism exists, absolutely, but it's not strong enough to overcome those who are no longer racist and believe in fair play. At least in the US.

One of the "slave mentality" friends of mine was one of the guys who I also helped and who took advantage of me and my family in a number of ways while we were trying to help him out. He had it made at work (where I met him to begin with. He was a communications engineer in a petroleum company and could have gone farther than me as a mere programmer) but walked around all day complaining to anyone who would listen close by and to whoever he could reach on the telephone (his cubicle was next to mine), talking out how bad he was treated here. How bad his last review was. How people didn't "respect" him because he was black. You see, he actually didn't do his work, but complained ALL THE TIME, literally all the time he was at work, about how no one respected him. But because he was black our HR department was afraid to let him go and get someone in there that could do his job. I was at that company 9 years, he 15. We left at the sme time. When another company bought us out. I got a nice package and an offer of employment from the new company (I rejected employment because I didn't like the company) and he got a mediocre package because for all his time at the company he never accomplished anything. Was that racist?

I (who am not black) busted my ass, working overtime and doing everything I could to end up with respect I'd earned. He complained and did nothing. He had a degree, I didn't. I got discriminated against because I didn't have a degree, he got discrimiated againstbecause he was a lazy asshole and only existed as long as he did in that slot because of his race (called reverse racism, and supported by the government, by the way).

It's a long story, but he treated us like shit and ended up blowing off a $3000 loan I gave him when we helped him out (he was going to have to go live under a bridge but instead I invited him into our house and gave him a loan to help him get back on his feet) because he didn't have an ounce of respect in his being for others and he didn't respect himself to begin with. But oh, how he loved to complain about what a hellish life he had as a black man, how unfair life was for him.

You know what, life sucks for a lot of us. If you don't like it, do something to change it. But asking for handouts from people who have more than you and then shitting in their hands as a recompense is the furthest thing worthy of respect that a human can do, and I've watched that particular scene played out many times before. And not just with black folk, with whoever has the slave mentality. Admitedly I see it a lot more here in South America than I ever did in the States. I've watched the same thing happen here and in Paraguay.

Giving people help so impersonal like funding from government agencies, without strings and consequences, does nothing but take away a person's self respect and replace it with unfounded "deserving.

So Black Shirt is the first one to come back with this "oh poor race that has been kept down for so long." I was expecting something like it. Let the mental masturbation continue, I suppose.

[QUOTE=ElQueso;435497]I haven't posted in this thread in quite some time because the mental masturbation that goes on here can be quite boring. But I, too, have a big mouth and can't always be silent.

I'm watching people argue the same tired crap every time, basically mouthing the same thing their respective parties mouth to the country in general. From one month to the next, basically the amount of time I give to this thread, it's always the very same thing.[/QUOTE]Great post, except when you start to apply it to this board. Most on both sides are social liberals, and most do not parrot the party line on all issues.

In 2008 there was a site on the internet where you answered questions about your position on specific issues, like abortion, foreign policy, taxes, etc. It would then tell you which of the presidential candidates were aligned most closely with your beliefs. I agreed with Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich 80% of the time. The next highest candidate was around 55%. On economic issues, many would consider Paul far right and Kucinich far left. Neither is brainwashed or a pawn of his party or of special interests. So it is with a number who post here. For example, even though I've compared him to a KKK member and otherwise abuse him mercilessly, I respect WT69's willingness to think outside of the Democrat box on foreign policy issues and a flat tax. On non-economic matters, we'd mostly agree. The posts here have changed my thoughts about a couple of issues, and enlightened me on more.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;435503]Great post, except when you start to apply it to this board. Most on both sides are social liberals, and most do not parrot the party line on all issues...[/QUOTE]

I may not have been too clear because I'm not writing a paper and wrote quite quickly without making sure I covered all the points I was looking for. Still may not be real clear, and perhaps you are correct in me applying the criticism too liberally on this board.

There are a number of posts I've seen here who think the government needs to make these changes, as opposed to people making their own decisions on how their money is spent. I didn't dwell on it very long, but a lot of people who are "socially liberal" think the US needs to be a dominant player in the world in order for us to survive ["properly"]. And Abraham Lincoln shows a good person who means well who ran straight into the Law of Unintended Consequences with an oppressive action taken by the government under his command.

I didn't mention God, nor legalizing at least certain drugs (I think it's the absolute height of idiocy to make any drugs illegal, but I'm betting I'm more "socially liberal" than most), which are "easy" socialy liberal concepts.

I don't see forcing people to pay for an already-broken (and one that can never work) health care system, or any government program that gives things to some and takes from other, as being socially liberal.

My mental masturbation comment is related to BOTH sides (no matter how socially liberal) supporting government programs of any type,as well as parotting the same things their respective parties say on other items that are not socially liberal. It doesn't work for either side, it disrupts the economy, creates resentments through unfair practices, and ruins the country as a whole. Politicians in general, whether they believe or not in what they are saying, are too interested in keeping their power and the things that come with it to really look dispassionately at what is needed and EVERYONE should be FOR changing politics as they exist in the US today, and changing the class of politician and the direction politicians want to take us.

Those who believe that government is an inherent evil that is necessary, but in the smallest doses possible to maintain order and a fair playing field, think like I do. I don't see very much of this here, even those who claim they want small government but think we are doing the right thing around the world being world policemen/bullies who are trying to export and inculcate our brand of insanity to the rest of the world.

I don't think government is the solution. I don't think passing laws to force Americans to pay for things a large portion of the population doesn't want is a good thing.

There are some politicians that are trying to change things, but they are far and few between and have realtively little support while others (particularly on this board, of a particular "bent") are cuting them down the way the majority of the press does, repeating things that are stupid.

I do believe the majority on this board are well-intentioned. I agree with a LOT of what is said, but no one is really talking about changing the core of the States, but rather trying to make the current politics work, which can never happen because politicians have become too entrenched.

Sorry if I offended anyone, really. Not meaning to, and it doesn't really do any good to insult someone for their beliefs.

[QUOTE=ElQueso;435505]There are some politicians that are trying to change things, but they are far and few between and have realtively little support while others (particularly on this board, of a particular "bent") are cuting them down the way the majority of the press does, repeating things that are stupid.

I do believe the majority on this board are well-intentioned. I agree with a LOT of what is said, but no one is really talking about changing the core of the States, but rather trying to make the current politics work, which can never happen because politicians have become too entrenched.[/Quote]You might check out the Ayn Rand Institute. I am a supporter and we are making headway in changing the ideas.

Don B.

[QUOTE=Jackson;435491]"[I]I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money.[/I]"

― Thomas Sowell, Barbarians inside the Gates and Other Controversial Essays.[/QUOTE]That's because when you live in a democracy where people support government spending for public services and other initiatives, and you don't want to chip in your part, you are rightly perceived as greedy and self-centered. You may not agree with every spending item, but a democracy cannot work if it depends on full consensus on every matter.

Excuse Me?

[QUOTE=Esten;435507]That's because when you live in a democracy where people support government spending for public services and other initiatives, and you don't want to chip in your part, you are rightly perceived as greedy and self-centered. You may not agree with every spending item, but a democracy cannot work if it depends on full consensus on every matter.[/QUOTE]The United States is a Constitutional Republic, Not a Democracy!

[QUOTE=Punter127;435508]Excuse Me?

The United States is a Constitutional Republic, Not a Democracy![/QUOTE]Sadly I fear not for much longer my brother. I certainly haven't made a decision about anything, but in my youth I couldn't have even imagined I would ever even consider picking up another passport, but I think about it a lot these days. Some of the shit up there, not the red state / blue state stuff, but the "security" stuff really worries me.

[QUOTE=ElQueso;435502]Wow Black Shirt. What sins, I wonder, did you do that you feel you, personally, have to pay for? Personally, I wasn't alive during World War II when black people were discriminated against. I wasn't wearing a white hood and hanging black folk as they were fighting for their lives. I didn't even WANT to fight Muhamad Al

So Black Shirt is the first one to come back with this "oh poor race that has been kept down for so long." I was expecting something like it. Let the mental masturbation continue, I suppose.[/QUOTE]Just because I mentioned a "once upon a time" truth. From the ending of the Civil War in 1865 until 1964 with the Civil Rights Act, how much of the Constitution were denied to the Blacks? That's right, almost a 100 years. Yet the Board here is bristling with talk of secession and armed rebellion if their 2nd amendment rights were infringed. To me, the Blacks were downright beaten down P.S.ychologically to endure what they had to go through without lashing out in a dramatic way. Perhaps, they were not licensed to carrry, so could not? But there is no doubt, given half a chance, the Old South would happily go back to it's George Wallace days.

Everything you mentioned, I have seen with my own eyes. So you are cursing Jesse Jackson & Al Sharpton (as I often do), but are they any different from Sarah Palin & Anne Coulter?.

Just don't take personally what I say. I am not targeting you. You spoke alot of truths. And I am sure you are a great guy (really). Next time, I come to BA, I might ask you for equal opportunity loan.(smile).

[QUOTE=DaddyRulz;435510]Sadly I fear not for much longer my brother. I certainly haven't made a decision about anything, but in my youth I couldn't have even imagined I would ever even consider picking up another passport, but I think about it a lot these days. Some of the shit up there, not the red state / blue state stuff, but the "security" stuff really worries me.[/QUOTE]It should worry all of us, but I don't think another passport is so easy to pick up? You know something I don't?