American Politics during the Obama Presidency

The red herrings from Jax and Tres don't change the fact that Wall Street took in a giant bonanza on the Twitter IPO last week.

145 million shares traded in 2 days. The shares sold are actually a combination of pre-IPO shares priced at $26, and preferred convertible shares from earlier investors. So much of these "asset purchases" became booked profits, which will be reported as investment income. Tres is correct, I didn't mention short vs. Long term capital gains rates. Thanks for the reminder. The income will be taxed at either long or short term rates depending on the shares involved, and hedge fund managers will pay a lower tax rate as well (the "carried interest" loophole).

The profits could be greater than the $1.3 BILLION I estimated, since the preferred shares were bought at prices as low as $2.67. Yes the gain is not realized until the shares are sold, but there was a lot of selling last week. No doubt, the Wall Street shills will argue that the early investors "risked" their money, and created some jobs at Twitter. But they took care of themselves in the end, with the IPO. The others who got in at $26 got completely free money. A Wall Street-engineered bonanza no matter how you look at it.

Jax and Tres may be shooting fish in a barrel, but they're using a kid's water pistol.

T. Rowe, Morgan Stanley funds sitting on whopper Twitter gains
[URL]http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/06/us-funds-twitter-ipo-idUSBRE9A517Z20131106[/URL]

[QUOTE=Esten;436512]The red herrings from Jax and Tres don't change the fact that Wall Street took in a giant bonanza on the Twitter IPO last week.

145 million shares traded in 2 days. The shares sold are actually a combination of pre-IPO shares priced at $26, and preferred convertible shares from earlier investors. So much of these "asset purchases" became booked profits, which will be reported as investment income. Tres is correct, I didn't mention short vs. Long term capital gains rates. Thanks for the reminder. The income will be taxed at either long or short term rates depending on the shares involved, and hedge fund managers will pay a lower tax rate as well (the "carried interest" loophole).

The profits could be greater than the $1.3 BILLION I estimated, since the preferred shares were bought at prices as low as $2.67. Yes the gain is not realized until the shares are sold, but there was a lot of selling last week. No doubt, the Wall Street shills will argue that the early investors "risked" their money, and created some jobs at Twitter. But they took care of themselves in the end, with the IPO. The others who got in at $26 got completely free money. A Wall Street-engineered bonanza no matter how you look at it.

Jax and Tres may be shooting fish in a barrel, but they're using a kid's water pistol.

T. Rowe, Morgan Stanley funds sitting on whopper Twitter gains
[URL]http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/06/us-funds-twitter-ipo-idUSBRE9A517Z20131106[/URL][/QUOTE]Esten,

So what?

Ask yourself these questions:

- Are you any less poor because Twitter's true market value has been established?

- Are you any less wealthy because these other guys made some money?

- Was your personal financial situation affected in the slightest way by any of this?

- Other than your own envy and personal jealousy, what's your complaint?

Thanks,

Jax.

[QUOTE=Esten;436512] The shares sold are actually a combination of pre-IPO shares priced at $26, and preferred convertible shares from earlier investors. [/QUOTE]I just looked at the prospectus. All proceeds from the IPO went to the company, none to earlier investors.

[QUOTE=Esten;436512]145 million shares traded in 2 days. Tres is correct, I didn't mention short vs. Long term capital gains rates. Thanks for the reminder. The income will be taxed at either long or short term rates depending on the shares involved, and hedge fund managers will pay a lower tax rate as well (the "carried interest" loophole).[/QUOTE]Everyone who sold so far and who pays USA capital gains tax has realized a short term gain. (Pension funds and foreigners for example won't have to pay capital gains tax). In the longer term, given that 80.5 million shares were sold to the public and 145 million shares traded on the first two days after the IPO, there won't be a lot of long term gains from the initial allotment of shares. While I agree that the "carried interest" loophole should not exist, the situation is similar - if the hedge fund doesn't hold the shares for a year, the manager doesn't get the long term gains rate on his carried interest. Hedge funds actually don't generate much in the way of carried interest taxed at lower capital gains rates - it's private equity that's mostly taking advantage of that.

[QUOTE=Esten;436512]The profits could be greater than the $1.3 BILLION I estimated, since the preferred shares were bought at prices as low as $2.67. Yes the gain is not realized until the shares are sold, but there was a lot of selling last week. No doubt, the Wall Street shills will argue that the early investors "risked" their money, and created some jobs at Twitter. But they took care of themselves in the end, with the IPO. The others who got in at $26 got completely free money. A Wall Street-engineered bonanza no matter how you look at it.[/QUOTE]Twitter thought the shares were worth less than $26 as they were prepared to price the IPO much lower. You're very possibly looking at a speculative bubble with Twitter. You buy stock in Chinese oil companies. Should that work the same? Once you buy the shares should they not be allowed to increase in price, so there will be no free money?

[QUOTE=Esten;436496] [B]$1.3 BILLION in instant wealth creation for the wealthy.[/B] And they will pay a lower tax rate on this income than many middle class workers.[/QUOTE]Absolutely not true. The gains from the 145 million shares are all short term. If you define "wealthy" as someone in the highest tax bracket, he'll pay 43.4% to 56% income tax on the gain, depending on which state he lives in. Many of the beneficial owners of the shares bought in the IPO, including people with pensions and people who invest in mutual funds, are not wealthy. They'll pay tax at a much lower level, some at 0%.

[QUOTE=Esten;436496]Republicans told us over and over these tax breaks will lead to job creation by these wealthy "job creators". Imagine how many jobs could be created with $1.3 BILLION. I'm sure there will be an announcement soon.[/QUOTE]Since all the shares sold in the IPO were sold by the company, proceeds from the issuance of the stock will go to create jobs, among other purposes. As to sales by non-tax-exempt investors, a significant part of the realized gains will go to the federal government in the form of taxes. Most of what's left over will be put to a higher use. It will be re-invested, and create jobs, make capital investments, buy shares of businesses, provide deposits to banks so that others can create jobs and make capital investments, fund federal government debt to pay for your entitlements, etc.

So what's your point? Do you think we should do away with IPO's? There's no need for publicly owned companies or the stock market?

Warren Buffett sees what Wall Street is getting away with. Is Buffett envious of Wall Street? Is he jealous? Of course not, that's absurd. There's a valid point behind the criticism, and any suggestion that such positions are based on jealousy is just more right wing drivel.

[QUOTE]“There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”

- Warren Buffett[/QUOTE]Any of you guys get those TWTR shares at $26 ? Nope, because firms like Goldman Sachs only distributed them to Wall Street friends and insiders. Pocketing $59 million in "fees" for distributing free money. Twitter is only one example of how Wall Street rakes in huge profits year after year.

Here's why we need to shed more light on Wall Street:
1. To understand how much money they leech off the US economy.
2. To understand how they mostly use this money to play in their rigged casino, rather than creating jobs.
3. To understand how much truth is in the Republican claim that they are "job creators".
4. To factor in #1-3 above so we make sound decisions about regulation, government revenues and spending, entitlements and balancing the budget.

[QUOTE=ElAlamo;418770]I can tell you exactly what the problem is.

The USA pays twice as much for medical care than the next closest country. Canada and Germany.

Do we receive better medical care?

Cuba which spends 25 cents a person for medical care has a longer life expectancy than the USA.

I am a doctor in the United States and I can tell you this is a farce. If you are overweight, a smoker and an incorrigible alcoholic, go to the end of the line. No liver transplants and no chemotherapy which may add another 2 weeks to your life and no liposuction.

Same with litigation. People who are overweight, smoked cigarettes like they are going out of style and destroyed their liver with alcohol should accept their fate. Don 't blaim pharmacuetical companies.

But try to do this. It is impossible. 60% of every persons lifetime time medical cost are incurred in the last 6 months of their lifes.

Criticize Obama as much as you like but Obama is not the problem. The problem is overweight, alcolholic smokers who want state of the art medical care for their destructive lifestyles.

Obama is not the villian here. The villian is our medical delivery system.

Obama may need to read 'econmics for dummies' but Obama is not the culprit for our entitlement programs which nobody wants to address.

Put another way, I will take Obama over Perry from Texas any day of the week. Perry and his religious nonsense is scary beyond belief.[/QUOTE]ObamaCare at this stage is not the final product. The start has been embarrassing. But there will be changes made, improvements created, and then the benefits of ACA will be there for everyone to benefit and enjoy, A year from now, you will start to hear the humming, and 3 years when Obama leaves office, the "Gang that couldn't Shoot Straight" will slump their asses in disbelief, not from ObamaCare succeeding, but the fact that they try to ***** away America's future by wasting 8 years of their energy to defeat Obama. Mindboggering, especially since most have done very well for themselves during this period.

But their stubborness knows no bounds. For them, he will always be Hussein, that Muslim Marxist from Kenya.

P.S. Ahh. Toyman. Where art Thou when we need ye most.

[QUOTE=Esten;436539]Warren Buffett sees what Wall Street is getting away with. Is Buffett envious of Wall Street? Is he jealous? Of course not, that's absurd. There's a valid point behind the criticism, and any suggestion that such positions are based on jealousy is just more right wing drivel.

Any of you guys get those TWTR shares at $26 ? Nope, because firms like Goldman Sachs only distributed them to Wall Street friends and insiders. Pocketing $59 million in "fees" for distributing free money. Twitter is only one example of how Wall Street rakes in huge profits year after year.

Here's why we need to shed more light on Wall Street:
1. To understand how much money they leech off the US economy.
2. To understand how they mostly use this money to play in their rigged casino, rather than creating jobs.
3. To understand how much truth is in the Republican claim that they are "job creators".
4. To factor in #1-3 above so we make sound decisions about regulation, government revenues and spending, entitlements and balancing the budget.[/QUOTE]You're right, that's absurd. Buffet owns a big chunk of one of the largest financial companies in America. Of course he's not envious of Wall Street. He is Wall Street. I have already given examples to you of how Buffet's positions are self serving. And how the Democrat Party and old guard Republicans are responsible for special favors granted to Wall Street.

Sound decisions about regulation, government revenues and spending, entitlements, and balancing the budget will never be forthcoming from your party, in part because it's controlled by special interests (e.g. Wall Street). Obama would appear to be better-than-your-average-Democrat, about not pandering to the financial services industry. I'm not sure about that though. It's more likely he prefers to pander to trial lawyers and screw business in general. J. P. Morgan is an example.

You need to re-read Jackson's post about 3 times. Twitter is not an example of leeching. Neither you nor anyone else was hurt. Twitter raised money which it will use to expand its business. That will contribute to economic and job growth. Maybe they mispriced the IPO and left money on the table. Or maybe this is a game of musical chairs, the shares are worth less than $26, and whichever "Wall Street" players are left standing at the end will take a fall: [URL]http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-13/twitter-seen-below-28-as-structured-note-investors-turn-bearish.html[/URL]

If you want to argue that IPO shares should be allotted through an auction system to everyone, not to special friends of the underwriters, that might make sense. Trying to extrapolate this to condemn the tax system and capitalism is baseless though.

Black Shirt, good post from El Alamo, thanks for digging that up. I agree with a good part of it, especially about Obama needing to read Economics for Dummies. While there are things I don't like about Perry, I'd take him any day over Obama.

[b]Somebody kick the jukebox, it keeps playing little dreamer dream on, over and over and over.[/b]

[QUOTE=BlackShirt;436545]ObamaCare at this stage is not the final product. The start has been embarrassing. But there will be changes made, improvements created, and then the benefits of ACA will be there for everyone to benefit and enjoy, A year from now, you will start to hear the humming,[snip] [/QUOTE]
Yes you should be embarrassed by the start, but how will these changes you speak of come about without new legislation? Even Democrats are starting to run from ObamaCare.

[url]http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/11/13/Obama-Landrieu-Udall[/url]

What about the five plus million that have lost their health care insurance, what will they do while you get ObamaCare “humming”?

How many people will be canceled when the employer mandate kicks in?

You should be ashamed that you haven't expressed concern for the people who have been canceled, and what about the people that don't qualify for a subsidy but for whatever reason can't afford the increased premiums? Remember ObamaCare only looks at your AGI.

And what gives the government the right to dictate to people what coverage they have to purchase?

I think before it's all said and done ObamaCare will go the way of prohibition.

[QUOTE=Punter127;436562][b]Somebody kick the jukebox, it keeps playing little dreamer dream on, over and over and over.[/b]


Yes you should be embarrassed by the start, but how will these changes you speak of come about without new legislation? Even Democrats are starting to run from ObamaCare.

[url]http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/11/13/Obama-Landrieu-Udall[/url]

What about the five plus million that have lost their health care insurance, what will they do while you get ObamaCare “humming”?

How many people will be canceled when the employer mandate kicks in?

You should be ashamed that you haven't expressed concern for the people who have been canceled, and what about the people that don't qualify for a subsidy but for whatever reason can't afford the increased premiums? Remember ObamaCare only looks at your AGI.

And what gives the government the right to dictate to people what coverage they have to purchase?

I think before it's all said and done ObamaCare will go the way of prohibition.[/QUOTE]Banging the tables with your fists, and stomping on your feet.

A friend of mine love to travel at 5 star level, but he actually hardly ever bother about leaving the comfort of the hotel. And if he did, he would go to the luxury malls that sold the same merchandise in Los Angeles. What he seem to get a kick from traveling was to go to the front desk / manager and complain about this matter, or that service. Or write a letter to an airline complaining about a bad landing, or the flight attendant forgot to give him a hot towel. Once on a cruise ship, he went on a 2 day campaign about a 75 cent overcharge on the internet fees.

I know, I know, it's not quite the same thing. But give it a rest, things will work out. And you might even be right. And then I will bestow upon you, the Supreme Order of the Righteous Knight of Beach Road.

P.S. All I have to do is Dream by the Everly Brothers, that is one sweet song. How did you guess it was one my karaoke favorites?

[QUOTE=BlackShirt;436564]Banging the tables with your fists, and stomping on your feet.

A friend of mine love to travel at 5 star level, but he actually hardly ever bother about leaving the comfort of the hotel. And if he did, he would go to the luxury malls that sold the same merchandise in Los Angeles. What he seem to get a kick from traveling was to go to the front desk / manager and complain about this matter, or that service. Or write a letter to an airline complaining about a bad landing, or the flight attendant forgot to give him a hot towel. Once on a cruise ship, he went on a 2 day campaign about a 75 cent overcharge on the internet fees.

I know, I know, it's not quite the same thing. But give it a rest, things will work out. And you might even be right. And then I will bestow upon you, the Supreme Order of the Righteous Knight of Beach Road.

P.S. All I have to do is Dream by the Everly Brothers, that is one sweet song. How did you guess it was one my karaoke favorites?[/QUOTE]Easy for you to say give it a rest, you still have insurance that somebody else pays for.

[QUOTE=Punter127;436566]Easy for you to say give it a rest, you still have insurance that somebody else pays for.[/QUOTE]Now that we are on the lifeboat, try not to move around too much and capsize the damn boat. I can't swim, can you?

[QUOTE=BlackShirt;436568]Now that we are on the lifeboat, try not to move around too much and capsize the damn boat. I can't swim, can you?[/QUOTE]Have you abandon ship already? LOL.

What we're seeing is failure of big government.

You bet I can swim like a fish, but I don't like to tread water.

[I]"The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."[/I]

As a country we need to adjust the sails and put government back in its place.

[QUOTE=Punter127;436570][I]"The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."[/I][/QUOTE]Just apply it to ACA, the Captain is already adjusting the sails. If I was the captain, the mutineers would be walking the plank!

[QUOTE=Punter127;436562][b]Somebody kick the jukebox, it keeps playing little dreamer dream on, over and over and over.[/b]


Yes you should be embarrassed by the start, but how will these changes you speak of come about without new legislation? Even Democrats are starting to run from ObamaCare.

[url]http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/11/13/Obama-Landrieu-Udall[/url]

What about the five plus million that have lost their health care insurance, what will they do while you get ObamaCare “humming”?

How many people will be canceled when the employer mandate kicks in?

You should be ashamed that you haven't expressed concern for the people who have been canceled, and what about the people that don't qualify for a subsidy but for whatever reason can't afford the increased premiums? Remember ObamaCare only looks at your AGI.

And what gives the government the right to dictate to people what coverage they have to purchase?

I think before it's all said and done ObamaCare will go the way of prohibition.[/QUOTE]It is a hell of a lot more than 5 mm people. IBM, HOME DEPOT, GE, etc., etc., etc., have all cancelled their plans. My plan was cancelled. The person who sublets from me even had his Medicare supplement policy cancelled. I know of a lot of people who have had their insurance cancelled.

Today's announcement is worthless for most people. The insurance companies can offer the policies, but they don't have to. My idiotic governor chose the federal exchange, so what are the odds he will reinstate the state plan that was cancelled? I would love for Obummercare to be cancelled, but it isn't going to happen. It will end up as another Federal program that runs at a deficit in a country that can't pay for all the deficit programs we already have commited to.

Change create fear, and the insurance industry knows this. They are making a killing, and they are not going to walk away without a big fight. They are not run by fools. They have the means & ability to shape policies and and influence legislation.

And who are we? We are like the chickens who goes into a frenzy when the corn is thrown into the yard. For all the cackling and posturing, most end up with stepping in shit and are happy with it.

In other words, they only offered only sub-prime coverage, aka shitty coverage.

They should offer new coverage to them, that gives them the best of Health Care coverage.

Gee, why is that so to hard to do? Profits do not Allow that!

Dccpa:
Do the Math, it will be Cheaper for the people, than Paul Ryan's Plan.
Where is The Republican Health Care Plan That Will Work for all of Us. Not Just Benefit The Insurance Companies?
They Do Not Have One, why because the party is Split into many fractions. The reason the Tea Party! The know nothing about Politics.
Come on Dump Them.

[QUOTE=Dccpa;436575]It is a hell of a lot more than 5 mm people. IBM, HOME DEPOT, GE, etc., etc., etc., have all cancelled their plans. My plan was cancelled. The person who sublets from me even had his Medicare supplement policy cancelled. I know of a lot of people who have had their insurance cancelled.

Today's announcement is worthless for most people. The insurance companies can offer the policies, but they don't have to. My idiotic governor chose the federal exchange, so what are the odds he will reinstate the state plan that was cancelled? I would love for Obummercare to be cancelled, but it isn't going to happen. It will end up as another Federal program that runs at a deficit in a country that can't pay for all the deficit programs we already have commited to.[/QUOTE]