American Politics during the Obama Presidency

[QUOTE=RockHarders;436868]Wrong again. The real issue is that the auto bailouts were successful and today there are two financially viable AMERICAN auto companies that would NOT exist "as is" had the USG not stepped in before they totally imploded.[/QUOTE]I have no idea whether what you wrote is true or good, except that Chrysler will become an ITALIAN auto company, not an American company, as a result of its bailout. I do know that Obama's restructuring of Chrysler and GM are classic examples of [b]Fascist Corporatism[/b], as practiced by Mussolini and as promoted by WT69's hero, Robert Reich:

[URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism#Fascist_corporatism[/URL].

Government called the shots, pushed aside debt-holders, and replaced private ownership with ownership by government and labor unions. I believe at the time Chrysler emerged from Chapter 11, over 50% of the equity had been transferred to the unions.

You calling people who opposed the bailouts "fascists" is irony in the extreme.

The Bail outs Worked.

Get your head out of your?

You are not an American, just one by being born here; or were you, Let's see Your Birth Certificate? Freedom for You but not all, just the Rich.

You may want to read this a Little.

Robert Reich sounds like a 1st Country American, not some 3rd world Dictator.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;436869]I have no idea whether what you wrote is true or good, except that Chrysler will become an ITALIAN auto company, not an American company, as a result of its bailout. I do know that Obama's restructuring of Chrysler and GM are classic examples of [b]Fascist Corporatism[/b], as practiced by Mussolini and as promoted by WT69's hero, [b][u]Robert Reich[/b][/u]:

[URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism#Fascist_corporatism[/URL].

Government called the shots, pushed aside debt-holders, and replaced private ownership with ownership by government and labor unions. I believe at the time Chrysler emerged from Chapter 11, over 50% of the equity had been transferred to the unions.

You calling people who opposed the bailouts "fascists" is irony in the extreme.[/QUOTE]

Come on you Republican, independents and Libertarians feel about how the Trickle Down Reagan politics are working today?

Walmart employees are not making a living wage.

[URL]http://money.cnn.com/2013/11/29/news/economy/walmart-black-friday/[/URL]

Come let's here your Bullshit reasons.

[QUOTE=WorldTravel69;436880]Come on you Republican, independents and Libertarians feel about how the Trickle Down Reagan politics are working today?

Walmart employees are not making a living wage.

[URL]http://money.cnn.com/2013/11/29/news/economy/walmart-black-friday/[/URL]

Come let's here your Bullshit reasons.[/QUOTE]WT, it's very simple. We just need to help the wealthy make even more money, so that more money will trickle back down.

[QUOTE=Esten;436886]WT, it's very simple. We just need to help the wealthy make even more money, so that more money will trickle back down.[/QUOTE]No, we need for EVERYBODY to make more money, but some people are so fucking lazy that they'd prefer to sit on their asses and collect government checks.

You liberals just don't get it. Instead of fighting over who gets how much of the pie, let's just bake more pies.

Everybody needs to work. Everybody needs to contribute. The more of us who are working, the wealthier we will all be.

Or we can follow the liberal plan, which is an ever-srinking number of us working to support an increasingly greater number of lazy fuckoffs.

Why does that happen? Because the Democratics buy the votes of the lazy fuckoffs with government money, thus securing their power base with permanent government dependents.

[B][size=3]Of course, the most important thing is that we're not talking about the ObamaCare diaster![/size][/B]

Thanks,

Jackson

==============================================

For the record, I am NOT a Republican, and I am NOT a conservative.

- I am against the death penalty.
- I am against any government support of religious organizations.
- I am for the legalization of drugs.
- I am for the legalization of commercial sex.
- I am for a woman's right to choose.
- I am for comprehensive sex education.
- I am for a foreign guest worker program.
- I am for a universal flat tax on EVERYONE'S income.

I am a member of the Libertarian Party, registered as an Independent.

First for all our liberal / progressive friends who obsess about the Top 1% of earners, by the way the threshold for the top one percent depending on the source is somewhere between $323 K and 368 K, even if you took all their income it would not run the government for more than a few weeks. The sad fact is the liberal / progressives just can't stand to see folks making more than they do, that is until you start taking their money.

WT69 / Hard Rocker / Esten, there is no proof whatsoever the "bailout worked" when it comes to GM and Chrysler.

Chrysler "An AMERICAN AUTOMAKER":

Fiat's current ownership of Chrysler stands at 58.5% and is poised to complete the merger of the two companies unless the UAW retiree's trust which owns the remaining 41.5% of the stock screws the pooch with an IPO offering which is being fought out in court as we speak. Should the UAW proceed Fiat will pull back support and the automaker will be down the tubes again.

Question, how can a company in the process of merging with an Italian automaker who owes 58.5% of the stock be an AMERICAN automaker? When the merger closes what you call Chrysler today will be all Fiat tomorrow.

Did we somehow annex Italy so it's still an AMERICAN company?

GM "They paid back their bailout loan":

To date the taxpayers have lost $10 Billion on "saving" GM. In addition GM and Chrysler have the highest labor cost of the American Big 3 and all three have higher labor costs than their foreign competitors. Maybe that's because of the UAW since the foreign companies are not unionized?

[URL]http://www.ibtimes.com/taxpayer-loss-general-motors-gm-bailout-near-10-billion-rising-1468890[/URL]

Again neither Chrysler nor GM considered filing for liquidation of the companies under Chapter 7, so your argument about throwing all those poor UAW folks out of work and closing two automakers is false on its face and typical liberal / progressive hype to scare people.

So that only leaves us with the only reason Obama instituted "Obama – ruptcy" for GM and Chrysler was to save the UAW labor contracts and to rape the bondholders, who are first in line for payment, transferring a majority of their interest to the UAW.

You guys have no proof whatsoever that GM and Chrysler would not have been in much better competitive shape with lower labor costs had they been allowed to proceed through a normal Chapter 11 bankruptcy, which would have among other things allowed them to void their labor contracts with the UAW.

All you do have now is GM costing the taxpayer's $10 Billion and rising and Chrysler which has been sold to Fiat.

Great going guys a perfect example of crony capitalism.

Mongers-.

Basically, what Jackson REALLY wants is the following:

- Immediate reinstitution of Jim Crow Laws.

- Literacy / IQ tests at the polls before voting allowed.

- Minimum annual income requirement of $100,000 USD to be permitted to vote.

- Allow injured / sick people to suffer / die outside the emergency room if they have no insurance or ability to pay on the spot.

- Round up and shoot all illegal immigrants.

- Lower minimum wage to $2 USD / hour.

Essentially Jackson (and his fascist brethren on this thread) want to make all the money and all the decisions and have a massive underclass of serfs running around attending to them and earning only enough money to barely feed themselves on. Unfortunately for Jackson and his fascist fan boys the USA still functions on a one person one vote principle and as recent presidential elections clearly show, people of his thinking are clearly outnumbered.

Suerte,

Rock Harders.

[QUOTE=Jackson;436889]
Why does that happen? Because the Democratics buy the votes of the lazy fuckoffs with government money, thus securing their power base with permanent government dependents.

[B]Of course, the most important thing is that we're not talking about the ObamaCare diaster![/B]

Thanks,

Jackson
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=RockHarders;436893]Mongers-.

Basically, what Jackson REALLY wants is the following:

- Immediate reinstitution of Jim Crow Laws.

- Literacy / IQ tests at the polls before voting allowed.

- Minimum annual income requirement of $100,000 USD to be permitted to vote.

- Allow injured / sick people to suffer / die outside the emergency room if they have no insurance or ability to pay on the spot.

- Round up and shoot all illegal immigrants.

- Lower minimum wage to $2 USD / hour.

Essentially Jackson (and his fascist brethren on this thread) want to make all the money and all the decisions and have a massive underclass of serfs running around attending to them and earning only enough money to barely feed themselves on. Unfortunately for Jackson and his fascist fan boys the USA still functions on a one person one vote principle and as recent presidential elections clearly show, people of his thinking are clearly outnumbered.

Suerte,

Rock Harders.[/QUOTE]Holy Shit Batman, where in the world did you come up with that list of total asinine be / S. Jackson has always advocated everyone working and contributing to the whole so what is your problem with that?

Is your proposition to force the "rich" to work and support those who don't work? They tried that already and it didn't work. It just made everyone the same, poor, except for the ruling elite.

Socialism has been tried many times and it fails every time due to human nature, which liberals chose to ignore.

From your list here is my proposal and not Jackson's.

Deporting illegal aliens and if they want in do it the legal way. Reagan tried legalizing them and it has only made the problem worse.

You don't pay taxes you don't get to vote.

Leave care for the indigent to the community or state and get it out of the federal government's hands to those who cannot print money to support an unsupportable program.

[QUOTE=WorldTravel69;436875]The Bail outs Worked.

Get your head out of your?

You are not an American, just one by being born here; or were you, Let's see Your Birth Certificate? Freedom for You but not all, just the Rich.

You may want to read this a Little.

Robert Reich sounds like a 1st Country American, not some 3rd world Dictator.[/QUOTE]Robert Reich sounds like a nut case in the article you posted. He's criticizing efficient allocation of capital and improvements in productivity. Follow his advice and in the long term the economy will go down the toilet.

As to being an American, the founders would roll over in their graves if they saw the current state of the federal government. The USA under Obama is out of sync with most of the rest of the world, which has moved towards free markets and away from statism. If you want to find a place ideally suited to your views you better hurry up and move, as Cuba is the last place left, although there will always be less desirable alternatives like Venezuela and Bolivia.

You're extrapolating a lot BTW. I never ventured an opinion as to whether the bailouts worked or didn't work. And I've never said anything about food stamps.

Let's repeat Rock Harders post.

[b]"Mongers-.

Basically, what Jackson REALLY wants is the following:

- Immediate re institution of Jim Crow Laws.

- Literacy / IQ tests at the polls before voting allowed.

- Minimum annual income requirement of $100,000 USD to be permitted to vote.

- Allow injured / sick people to suffer / die outside the emergency room if they have no insurance or ability to pay on the spot.

- Round up and shoot all illegal immigrants.

- Lower minimum wage to $2 USD / hour.

Essentially Jackson (and his fascist brethren on this thread) want to make all the money and all the decisions and have a massive underclass of serfs running around attending to them and earning only enough money to barely feed themselves on. Unfortunately for Jackson and his fascist fan boys the USA still functions on a one person one vote principle and as recent presidential elections clearly show, people of his thinking are clearly outnumbered.

Suerte,

Rock Harders.[/b]

[QUOTE=Doppelganger;436895]Holy Shit Batman, where in the world did you come up with that list of total asinine be / S. Jackson has always advocated everyone working and contributing to the whole so what is your problem with that?

Is your proposition to force the "rich" to work and support those who don't work? They tried that already and it didn't work. It just made everyone the same, poor, except for the ruling elite.

Socialism has been tried many times and it fails every time due to human nature, which liberals chose to ignore.

From your list here is my proposal and not Jackson's.

Deporting illegal aliens and if they want in do it the legal way. Reagan tried legalizing them and it has only made the problem worse.

You don't pay taxes you don't get to vote.

Leave care for the indigent to the community or state and get it out of the federal government's hands to those who cannot print money to support an unsupportable program.[/QUOTE]

But to the ones that Rock Harders post pointed out.

[b]"Essentially Jackson (and his fascist brethren on this thread) want to make all the money and all the decisions and have a massive underclass of serfs running around attending to them and earning only enough money to barely feed themselves on. Unfortunately for Jackson and his fascist fan boys the USA still functions on a one person one vote principle and as recent presidential elections clearly show, people of his thinking are clearly outnumbered."[/b]

[QUOTE=Tiny12;436901]Robert Reich sounds like a nut case in the article you posted. He's criticizing efficient allocation of capital and improvements in productivity. Follow his advice and in the long term the economy will go down the toilet." [b]Your Opinion[/b]

As to being an American, the founders would roll over in their graves if they saw the current state of the federal government. [b][u] True, there would be another revolution to get a new Congress into office.[/b][/u]
The USA under Obama is out of sync with most of the rest of the world, [b][u] In your Opinion, not the rest of the world.[/b][/u] which has moved towards free markets and away from [b]statism. What spelling is this?[/b]
If you want to find a place ideally suited to your views you better hurry up and move, as Cuba is the last place left, although there will always be less desirable alternatives like Venezuela and Bolivia. [b][u]North Korea sounds like what you want. No rights at all.[/b][/u]

You're extrapolating a lot BTW. I never ventured an opinion as to whether the bailouts worked or didn't work. And I've never said anything about food stamps.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Jackson;436889]No, we need for EVERYBODY to make more money, but some people are so fucking lazy that they'd prefer to sit on their asses and collect government checks.

You liberals just don't get it. Instead of fighting over who gets how much of the pie, let's just bake more pies.

Everybody needs to work. Everybody needs to contribute. The more of us who are working, the wealthier we will all be.

Or we can follow the liberal plan, which is an ever-srinking number of us working to support an increasingly greater number of lazy fuckoffs.

Why does that happen? Because the Democratics buy the votes of the lazy fuckoffs with government money, thus securing their power base with permanent government dependents.

[/QUOTE]WT69, The above, while true, does not apply to the average lefty, like you, posting here. You all fall into one or both of the following categories:

1. You've been brainwashed by MSNBC, parents, Marxist professors, your neighbors in San Francisco, etc. Either the brainwashing has been so intense that reason doesn't matter, or you don't possess the real-world-business experience, knowledge or analytical ability to realize you've been fed a line of B.S.

2. While you are not lazy and have done your fair share, the Democrat platform is better for you. This applies to trial lawyers, your Medicare, DH's medical insurance, etc.

[QUOTE=WorldTravel69;436913]But to the ones that Rock Harders post pointed out.

[b]"Essentially Jackson (and his fascist brethren on this thread) want to make all the money and all the decisions and have a massive underclass of serfs running around attending to them and earning only enough money to barely feed themselves on. Unfortunately for Jackson and his fascist fan boys the USA still functions on a one person one vote principle and as recent presidential elections clearly show, people of his thinking are clearly outnumbered."[/b][/QUOTE]I've only met one gringo monger in Argentina, who was spending a ridiculous amount of money at Black. But that's for another topic. So I don't know you or RH or Esten, unless we've met somewhere else. I do however read. And remember that when the bottom fell out of the Argentine economy, Jackson was coordinating aid for soup kitchens and orphanages. RH on the other hand was living the life of the top .01% of Cubans on his junkets to Miramar in Havana. Esten was dropping megabucks at Hippo. And you were pursuing an expensive hobby, bagging poontang in something like 50 countries. Which, honestly and without any sarcasm intended, is very impressive.

I suspect you, Esten, RH and Black Shirt led more opulent lifestyles than I did until 3 or 4 years ago. Every spare, after-tax dime I got was put back into my business and investments. In part because a good part of my business is in 3rd world countries, I believe those investments benefited people more than the taxes I paid to the USA federal government. Much of the money spent by the federal government is squandered, used inefficiently, or does more harm than good.

[QUOTE=WorldTravel69;436913]But to the ones that Rock Harders post pointed out.

[b]"Essentially Jackson (and his fascist brethren on this thread) want to make all the money and all the decisions and have a massive underclass of serfs running around attending to them and earning only enough money to barely feed themselves on. Unfortunately for Jackson and his fascist fan boys the USA still functions on a one person one vote principle and as recent presidential elections clearly show, people of his thinking are clearly outnumbered."[/b][/QUOTE][URL]http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/blog/index.php/2012/06/political-left-and-right-properly-defined/[/URL]

For the benefit of those who don't know left from right here is a proper definition.

BTW as probably the only Objectivist in the group I would like to point out that only a complete idiot could could consider me a fascist.

Speak up and remove any doubt.

Don B

Fascism. A reasonable definition:

Fas·cism (fshzm).

noun

1. often Fascism.

A. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

Be. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.

2. Oppressive, dictatorial control.

I really wish you guys would research the words you are throwing around and calling folks.

As always the last bastion of the liberal / progressive is name calling when whey run out of reasoned argument.

The definition sounds a whole lot like Obama and his administration, not Jackson or the rest of us.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;436901] The USA under Obama is out of sync with most of the rest of the world, which has moved towards free markets and away from statism. [/QUOTE]The countries with the highest standards of living and the highest reported levels of happiness have universal government-sponsored health care, protections for unions and workers displaced by corporate movements, and high effective tax rates, both for individuals and corporations. I am talking about Switzerland, Denmark, Germany, Sweden, and other northern European countries. While it is true that, on paper, the corporate tax rate is high in the United States, the actual rates that companies pay is low because there are so many loopholes that do not exist in the social democracies. Please note I did not say socialist democracies. In all the northern European countries, there is universal recognition that private companies are the engines of development. Entrepreneurship is appreciated, but companies are not allowed to play off one part of the country against another in order to get reverse tax breaks, that is, outright payments from states and localities. Governments (the "State" if you will) in the northern European countries are also effective in preventing monopolies that are well protected by traditional Republicans in the United States. The northern European countries have problems in terms of immigration just as the United States has, but parties work together so that there is some consistency between law and practice. People are not allowed to walk into restaurants and libraries with guns in any other civilized country. I don't call that statism, but it is certainly government control over individual behavior. In summary, the notion that the United States is more "statist" than other countries is patently false.

The answer to America's sluggish growth is the Obama agenda: education, health care, investment in infrastructure, tax reform to moderate the dangerously accelerating gap between the rich and everyone else, and collaboration with business as to the correct types of regulation. The sad fact is that Congress is literally trying to hurt the country as a strategy to defeat the Democrats.

Finally, with all due respect to Jackson, the Affordable Care Act (Obamacare) has already decelerated the growth in health care spending in the United States. For everyone who really cares about the national debt, the tremendous success of the ACA in cutting costs already and the likelihood that it will cut costs much more in the future constitute the best news future generations could possibly hear. Obama erred when he said that everyone could keep their insurance. Two per cent could not, but even some of them are now able to keep their former (poor) policies. Certainly the roll-out of the ACA has been sloppy, but that will be totally forgotten, just as it was in Massachusetts when at first they had trouble implementing Romneycare. Romneycare is very popular, and the big fear among the Republicans is that ObamaCare will be equally popular. The ACA is moving the USA, ever so slowly, toward a rational health care system for all, just as enjoyed by the rest of the civilized world: better care, lower cost.