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[QUOTE=WorldTravel69;438683]We are spending Billions of dollars to support what Bush started.[/QUOTE]President Bush started the attack on the World Trade Center?
That's news to me.
I thought it was Al Queda that attacked our country on 9/11 and "started" everything.
Jax.
[QUOTE=Esten;438647]If the multiple agency audits / questions were indeed coordinated harassment, those responsible should be held accountable and punished.
But forgive me, such coordination seems very far-fetched. And the argument that some people "didn't like her" isn't evidence. This is just more of the same flimsy victimization mindset that you applied to the phony IRS scandal. Out of hundreds if not thousands of Tea Party groups, why was it only her group that got so much attention? Did you even bother to look into the specifics of why these agencies were involved?[/QUOTE]It's got to be far fetched, because the Obama administration and people in the federal government would never victimize anyone they view as an enemy. Here's her testimony:
[URL]https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=589797007761126[/URL]
[QUOTE=Esten;438681]Doppel, Democrats aren't seeking any different or preferential treatment when it comes to disclosure requirements for political donations.
And Lois Lerner, like others in the Obama administration, clearly understands that Darrell Issa is a joke. He has made a mockery of the House Oversight Committee, and demonstrated beyond a doubt that he is a partisan hack who operates based on political strategy. The man is now desperate, having failed to find even a smidgen of political motivation after interviewing numerous witnesses and reviewing thousands of emails and other documents. Why would Lerner play into his Monkey Court? Issa is not looking for the truth, he is looking for any way to selectively report or twist the facts, to enable the right wing media to keep rallying their followers about how they are all "victims".[/QUOTE]Esten, you still fail to answer the question, why take the 5th if no misdeeds were committed. Could it be there were?
If you call Issa's committee a "monkey court" what would you call the first two years of Obama's reign with both the house and senate in democrat hands?
How about that ObamaCare big guy? The dem's are running away from Obama and his healthcare debacle as fast as they can!
[QUOTE=Doppelganger;438688]Esten, you still fail to answer the question, why take the 5th if no misdeeds were committed. Could it be there were?
If you call Issa's committee a "monkey court" what would you call the first two years of Obama's reign with both the house and senate in democrat hands?
How about that ObamaCare big guy? The dem's are running away from Obama and his healthcare debacle as fast as they can![/QUOTE]Just to answer the first question, you also take the fifth when there is ambiguity about whether things might escalate. To quote Wikipedia:"The Supreme Court has held that "a witness may have a reasonable fear of prosecution and yet be innocent of any wrongdoing. The privilege serves to protect the innocent who otherwise might be ensnared by ambiguous circumstances." With the divided government we own, things can get out of hand rather quickly these days. (the Clinton impeachment as an example?) Lerner probably has a decent lawyer advising her.
I already answered your question Doppel, go back and read my response. Lerner is too smart to play into the hands of a partisan slimeball like Darrell Issa. The guy should be fired, charged and tried in court. Meanwhile restore some respect to the HOC and replace Issa with someone fair and balanced, and I'm sure Lerner will be much more likely to testify.
Democrats are very proud of the Affordable Care Act, which was enacted under the same administration that saved the country from a near-depression resulting from laissez-faire free-market ideology. The ACA is a very good step forward to broadening access to healthcare and stopping some of the healthcare insurance abuses that other developed countries stopped a long-time ago. Aside from some important bumps that now are mostly resolved, the law is being implemented fairly well for something so big.
You must have loved watching other Americans getting denied insurance due to pre-existing conditions, or forced into bankruptcy paying their medical bills. Why don't you tell us all how much you enjoyed that?
Hey Tiny, Take a look at this article about your alleged IRS victim, Catherine Engelbrecht. She is the founder of at least two Tea Party groups, one of which is the subject of the article below from the Houston Chronicle. Along with the previously reported voter intimidation tactics, it looks like Snow White actually has a record of activism and pushing the envelope. Did you bother yet to look up the reasons behind her involvement with the FBI, ATF and OSHA? Or are you afraid you might learn something that could call into question your view that she is a victim.
Judge rules tea party group a PAC, not a nonprofit
[URL]http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Judge-rules-tea-party-group-a-PAC-not-a-nonprofit-3442532.php[/URL]
[QUOTE]
March 28, 2012
A Travis County district court judge ruled this week that a Houston-based tea party group is not a nonprofit corporation as it claims, but an unregistered political action committee that illegally aided the Republican Party through its poll-watching efforts during the 2010 elections.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Esten;438691]Hey Tiny, Take a look at this article about your alleged IRS victim, Catherine Engelbrecht. She is the founder of at least two Tea Party groups, one of which is the subject of the article below from the Houston Chronicle. Along with the previously reported voter intimidation tactics, it looks like Snow White actually has a record of activism and pushing the envelope. Did you bother yet to look up the reasons behind her involvement with the FBI, ATF and OSHA? Or are you afraid you might learn something that could call into question your view that she is a victim.
Judge rules tea party group a PAC, not a nonprofit
[URL]http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Judge-rules-tea-party-group-a-PAC-not-a-nonprofit-3442532.php[/URL][/QUOTE]Esten, first of all the Houston Chronicle is one of the if not the most liberal papers in the state. I know since I subscribe as it is the only paper in Houston. Second Travis County is the county in which the state capital resides and is a liberal bastion and has been for years. Strange they had to go to Austin to find a judge for this case? Take a look at the rate Austin Judges are overturned by the State Supreme Court. Liberals predominately file their suits in Austin due to liberal judges on the bench in that county, while they often win at that level they are constantly overturned on appeal.
That is always the problem with liberals, it's Ok to be an activist and pump money into the election process if you are on the left, but activism becomes a dirty word when it comes to the right doing the same.
There is something very wrong when enforcement branches of the federal government begin targeting political speech. Did you forget that Lerner is the person who revealed the fact the IRS was improperly targeting conservative groups?
[QUOTE=BigBossMan;438689]Just to answer the first question, you also take the fifth when there is ambiguity about whether things might escalate. To quote Wikipedia:"The Supreme Court has held that "a witness may have a reasonable fear of prosecution and yet be innocent of any wrongdoing. The privilege serves to protect the innocent who otherwise might be ensnared by ambiguous circumstances." With the divided government we own, things can get out of hand rather quickly these days. (the Clinton impeachment as an example?) Lerner probably has a decent lawyer advising her.[/QUOTE]I don't think anyone is questioning her right to take the fifth. I see an entirely different question here.
Does an employee have the right to refuse to answer questions from their employer concerning the performance of their duties? The answer is of course yes, but the employer has the right and in this case some would argue the responsibility to discipline said employee. Lois Lerner is a federal employee and Darrell Issa like him or not has legal authority to ask questions, and he represents her employer which is the American people.
If Lois Lerner refuses to answer question which again is her right under the Constitution she should be discharged and barred from any government position. This should apply to [B]all government employees.[/B] We simply can not allow rogue employees or agencies. To try and defend or justify either Lois Lerner or Darrell Issa because of their political affiliation which is what seems to be happening here is completely absurd!
I also think we should simplify our tax system and do away with the IRS so it can't be used as a weapon of mass destruction. Between the IRS and NSA the federal government has entirely to much power and must be reined in.
IMHO you use the word "decent" far to loosely, in [U]most[/U] cases I would consider "decent lawyer" an oxymoron.
Dear Esten,
Some of the Jews that Hitler gassed cheated on their taxes. That's an exaggerated analogy, because the repercussions Engelbrecht suffered at the hands of the government pale by the side of what happens to, say, people who get busted for drugs three times and spend the rest of their lives in jail. Most likely, you have some politically-minded big wigs like Lois Lerner in government issuing orders. But fortunately many bureaucrats don't let their prejudices carry over to their jobs, or aren't politically minded. In investigating Engelbrecht's personal finances and her business, the field agents did their jobs, came up with nothing, and after considerable time and expense she's in the clear. The same thing happened with Tea Party 501 (c)(4)'s. The best that Lerner et al could do was to delay the approvals of the organizations for months or years. Eventually their applications were approved. I've been in business longer than Engelbrecht. Over the course of more than two decades I've been hit with three IRS audits, one of which was conducted by mail, and one OSHA investigation. She gets 15 visits from federal agencies right after she became politically involved when she had none before. That's quite a coincidence. As to documenting her claims, it is indeed difficult because the IRS, ATF, OSHA and FBI don't release information about investigations. Yep, guess you've got me there.
As to whether she's "Snow White", what difference does it make? Back when it was nonpartisan, I was a member of the ACLU, which has defended Nazi's. Based on your recent posts on Engelbrecht, one would think you on the other hand believe in the "fuck her over good if I don't like her" philosophy.
Doppelganger is right about Travis County judges, and I'd extend that to Travis County prosecutors and Travis County grand juries. If she's being rolled over, there's a good chance that will be overturned. BUT, that's how things like this should be resolved, the way they are now in Texas. The Federal Election Commission and the courts should be the arbitrators, not the IRS. Politicizing the IRS is a bad idea.
With respect to her activities in Texas, it's interesting that the FBI is going after her political organizations, but not the group Houston Votes. You read the press coverage and this actually looks like a case of Engelbrecht's organization trying to counter Houston Votes, which was up to voter fraud on a significant scale. How many groups like Houston Votes or Moveon. Org are being targeted by the FBI or the IRS? Probably not any higher percentage than nominally nonpolitical organizations like the Sierra Club, NORML, ACLU, etc. But there are those in power who have decided to go after people and groups the Democrat Party views as opponents, as clearly evidenced by what happened under Lerner.
While I don't know whether Engelbrecht was up to no good (the New Yorker article about her would indicate she was in certain places), I do know you've got a pollyanna's view of voter fraud. My father's cousin stuffed ballot boxes in South Texas for Lyndon Baines Johnson. Voter fraud happens, more than you think.
Let's review the facts:
(1) There is no evidence of wrongdoing by Lois Lerner.
(2) There is no evidence of coordinated activity by federal agencies against Catherine Engelbrecht.
(3) There is evidence of valid reasons for the activities of said federal agencies.
(4) There is evidence of voter intimidation by Catherine Engelbrecht's Tea Party group.
(5) There is evidence of illegal political activity by Catherine Engelbrecht's Tea Party group.
Despite the facts, the Tea Partiers and their sympathizers choose to ignore them, so they can cling to their conspiracy theories that they are victims. Who knew, that a fundamental premise of being a self-described "Patriot" is that one is also a "Victim" ? Fascinating.
There's nothing wrong with being politically active and wanting to stop voter fraud (as small as it is). It's [I]how[/I] it's done. Intimidation and breaking the law aren't good ways to go about it. Now, it is claimed that the Texas judge who found Engelbrecht's Tea Party group guilty of illegal activity was biased. And this would be proven by a successful appeal by her group, King Street Patriots. This one should be easy. Let's see who can post a credible link proving that the ruling of the Texas judge against her Tea Party group was appealed and overturned.
[QUOTE=Esten;438690]Democrats are very proud of the Affordable Care Act, which was enacted under the same administration that saved the country from a near-depression resulting from laissez-faire free-market ideology. [/QUOTE]Yep, the "near depression" was entirely the fault of George Bush and his laissez-faire free-market ideology. Bill Clinton, Alan Greenspan, Ben Bernanke, Tim Geithner, and incompetent bank regulators had nothing to do with it: [URL]http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/26/business/economy/26inquiry.html?_r=0[/URL].
Neither did Barney Frank and a myriad of Congressmen from both parties who played games with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and forced banks to loan to customers who weren't creditworthy to buy houses they couldn't afford.
But fortunately Barack Hussein Obama was there to save us. Thank you Almighty! By racking up trillion dollar deficits and implementing a $831 billion stimulus that handed out lots of pork but did nothing to create jobs, he saved us from ruin and destitution. And five years into the recovery, the percentage of Americans who are employed is lower than it was in the depths of the recession: [URL] http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS12300000[/URL]
By the way, the Tea Party is all about taxes and spending. Despite what Catherine Engelbrecht says, it has nothing to with voter fraud. Here's how it originated: [URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcvSjKCU_Zo[/URL].
And about items 1 through 3 in your last post being "facts." That's mighty impressive, I wish I could do that too. With that level of self delusion I might be able to think I've got a 10" penis, which would do wonders for my self image. (There's a reason they call me Tiny.)
[QUOTE=Tiny12;438703]And about items 1 through 3 in your last post being "facts." That's mighty impressive, I wish I could do that too. With that level of self delusion [/QUOTE]Hey Tiny, here's an idea. Why don't you do some research, and post some evidence to refute my facts?
FYI, conspiracy theories are not facts.
[QUOTE=Esten;438721]Hey Tiny, here's an idea. Why don't you do some research, and post some evidence to refute my facts?
FYI, conspiracy theories are not facts.[/QUOTE]Esten, I could say the same regarding your "facts", as for some reason you believe your opinions are "facts".
So why is the IRS stonewalling Issa's committee? How long would it take to produce Learner's emails. No one is buying the "years" statement from the commissioner. All the emails have been subpoenaed, there is no need for the IRS to "redact" anything and the data dump should not take more than a few key strokes. Everyone who has email accounts knows this.
Here is a little tid bit for you which could be applied to your list of items 1 - 3, have you ever heard the saying:
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck. It might just be a duck.
Can you fix the Country in 8 Years?
NO FUCKING WAY!
Was it Clinton's fault that Bush had to fix his mistakes?
Was it the other way?
It takes more than 8 years and a lot of sweat to change the world Boys!
Give it Time!
Let's kill them ALL and allow GOD to sort them out!
Gig Em Aggies!
TL for God and President!
Doppel, All my statements are factual, as they are all supported by the body of information reported in the media. On the contrary, you have presented no evidence of collusion or intentional political motivation; so they remain conspiracy theories. You really should learn the difference. BTW, I'm still waiting for your link showing the ruling of the Texas judge on illegal Tea Party group activities was appealed and overturned.
[QUOTE]If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck. It might just be a duck.[/QUOTE]Maybe someone is painting a picture of a duck, and you've been fooled into believing it's a real duck.