Argentine Real Estate

[QUOTE=El Queso]The only renters that don't pay utilities are typically the temporary apartment rentals. And they charge much more for temporary rentals than normal contracts, so it will be possible for them to offset their costs by raising rates a bit and eating a bit of the cost both. The net earnings will shrink somewhat, but most of these people are not necessarily using their apartments as their sole source of income.

Everyone who rents on long term contracts (which is the vast percentage of renters) pays their own utilities.[/QUOTE]If the expenses and stuff are getting more expensive the rents also have to come down. Let's say you are Argentine and you earn 6000 peso a month with your wife. You want to spend around 30-35% of your income on housing and your expenses go from 250 peso to 500 peso a month your rent has to go down with approx. The same amount. You can only afford to pay amount if your income increases, which might well not happen in 2009 and 2010

The main reason why it is not a huge concern for most Argentines is because they have properities because:

1) Money laundering.

2) Security. No cash at home, but in bricks.

3) Investment. There will never a corralito on houseprices.

4) No confidence in banks.

5) Security against inflation

[QUOTE=Joe Hernandez]I don't know about your budget but if you can spend atleast 2000 dollar a month I would just rent short term (1-3-6 months) and move to different places.

In BA it should be something like:

800 dollar appartment.

800 dollar a month to spend (100 peso a day)

500 dollar a month for chicas?

If you have around 2000-2500 dollar available you could have a pretty decent life. I would think it's about the same in Lima, Santa Cruz (nice place, but I don't know if it's nice for Chicas) Bogota, Montevideo or the north of Chile (Really nice from Nov. Untill April)[/QUOTE]I live in the midwest. My mortgage is almost paid off. My duplex renter pays 90% of my rent. My car is paid, gas minimal, so basically I can live for less than the above number and still have unlimited opportunity to make a buck. Agreed lifestyle, food, and the chicas being removed from the equation make it not really apples to apples. Point being when I started traveling there in 2003 it was 70% less than it was here. Now things are very close to equal. Seems out of fit to me. I heard electricity and utilities cable all spiked. How can the Argies keep up with this? It seems they are getting battered.

[QUOTE=Master J]I live in the midwest. My mortgage is almost paid off. My duplex renter pays 90% of my rent. My car is paid, gas minimal, so basically I can live for less than the above number and still have unlimited opportunity to make a buck. Agreed lifestyle, food, and the chicas being removed from the equation make it not really apples to apples. Point being when I started traveling there in 2003 it was 70% less than it was here. Now things are very close to equal. Seems out of fit to me. I heard electricity and utilities cable all spiked. How can the Argies keep up with this? It seems they are getting battered.[/QUOTE]I spended 2 weeks in PA, MI, NY, OH travelling in June and I consider the cost of the items I buy about the same as in BA. Only public transport is still dirt cheap in BA

These are excellent cases presented thus far and I applaude each contributor. As it stands today, we are enjoying what is basically a 4:1 $AR /$USD swap rate. Should this change, I am sure that many of us here might look elsewhere.

I am currently in a short term place in Palermo Hollywood that sells today for $100K USD. I am renting it for $1000USD... for a single month. Granted this is still low season through September but it is also only a single month rental. If I were to pull money from US, at an easily justifiable and conservative 6% cost, this apartment would run me roughly $500US/mo or roughly half what I am now paying.

Yes, one could continue to rent and throw good money down the argentenian drains. Or purchase. Now which is best?

Please feel free to weigh in on what is an issue yet to be resolved in my mind.

Suerte.

Jaggar

This conversation has been held many times on this forum.

Your far better off with a long term lease, two years or so.

If you must buy wait until the next crisis which is not far off.

Then your $100,000 USD apartment might be selling for $50,000

Exon

[QUOTE=Sidney]Rent, don't buy in AR. We have recommended this for years! My landlord, a minor speculator, owns 4 very nice apartments. Only mine is rented. The same is true all winter. Anyway, I'm leaving ASAP, for 3 months or permanently![/QUOTE]What Exon and Sidney say is 100% correct. In Argentina, rent, don't buy.

As one who owns several buildings in Buenos Aires I can tell you that, if I knew then what I know now, I would never have bought those properties.

The issue is not that you are going to lose money. If you buy smart you may make money.

The issue is that you do not want to be involved with any part of Argentina I. E. Its government or its institutions. Buying and selling real estate in Argentina guarantees that you will have to deal with the most corrupt, dishonest government in the known world.

Furthermore, in my opinion, there is no hope for Argentina. The future of Argentina as a country is slow perpetual decline forever.

Enjoy the pussy and don't let the tarbaby get you I. E. The tarbaby is the government of Argentina.

Always remember, when in Argentina, you are always a lot better off if you have the option of taking the next plane out of Dodge.

Understand, and after reading a history of the last 100 years of Argentina, there seems little to question - rent, don't buy. Don't invest or do business either.

Can the same be categorically said for neighboring countries? Chile and Brazil are becoming more respectable. I hear good things about Uruguay, and promising things about Paraguay.

This is just my personal opinion though many of you might just disagree.

I feel that if one is visiting Argentina once a year, for 2~3 months (like me) short term rental albeit expensive works out the cheapest and most convenient.

If one is living in BA for 6~7 months a year, perhaps a long term 2 year rental would work out the best. This would work out to be cheaper and more convenient. However, for long term rental either a local owning property has to give guarantee for you OR you need to pay 24 months rental in advance or have a bank give guarantee for you etc etc. In any case, long term rentals are not to easy to obtain here.

However in my opinion the best thing would be to own your own in BA, especially if one is visiting BA more than one time in a year and is in BA for at least 6~8 months a year. This is not for investment purpose as its unlikely one will get sufficient rent out of it, due to high competition in the rental market and the present recession in the tourism industry. Also, its highly unlikely that prices of property are going to rise (short term Capital Gains) any further than what they are now in BA (at their peak) The reason to own would be, so that you have a place of your own, set it up the way you like. Nothing like owning a private pad for sexual adventures! One could even have a live -in relationship here with someone you particularly fancy in your own private pad (will work out cheaper than in a long term rental) This is to gain maximum advantage of your property. If the property has a parking space, it would be nice to own a car in BA. The car can be securely parked in the underground parking area when one is out of the country. Owning a property can also help in inviting over friends and family to BA from abroad for short vacations and entertaining them.

Most of the advantages stated above are possible even with a long term rental but I would say owning rather than rental will be a tad bit easier and less expensive and more enjoyable.

The costs involved are not so prohibitive as they may seem. Its just on what one is willing to spend. It can be anything from 75K to 350 K for a studio to a 2 bedroom apartment in the city. It just depends on what is your budget and how much you can splurge for yr own private pad in BA.

I will like to add here that owning a good property in a good location in BA with a good view, good gym/swimming pool/the works, underground parking, convenience stores nearby, if rented out at a reasonable (not TOO high) a price, would always be in demand by tourists/mongers for rentals. The trick is to buy a good property which will catch the eye of prospective tenants among the 10,000's of options available. One typical example of such a property is Enn Arce towers at Arce and Ortega & Gasset which I rented out during my last visit. Such a property if properly priced, would always be in demand for short or long term rentals. Personally, I would not like to rent out my privately owned apartment for the obvious wear and tear and damages which will occur.

Regarding the corruption involved in buying a property in BA. I personally feel that its a bit exaggerated. I have seen much worse corruption in my world travels. This hold goods for some of the famous first world countries as well. Its just a matter of experience of facing the corruption.

Also, I feel that buying a property in any part of the world is not easy. One has to do a lot of leg work, research, running around, legal work, dealing with the tricky real estate agents, etc etc.

Its simple. No PAIN, NO GAIN!

I personally do not own a property in BA yet as I am not in BA for more than 2~3 months a year. I would like to spend more time here and in that case, I would definitely buy in the future.

The speculation regarding a crash of Argentine pesos and deflation of property prices is a very optimistic speculation by prospective buyers. This will happen or not remains to be seen. However, I do not personally see it happening in recent future. Though I could be drastically wrong.

Regarding the fact Argentina could cease to become a pussy heaven and not the best place to monger is again a very pessimistic speculation. I would personally say that Argentina has been a pussy heaven as early as the late 80's when I commenced my "mongering career". It is still so 20 years hence. I think it will continue to remain so 20 years hence. In which case, it makes sense to own a property in this pussy heaven. In 20 years of owning property here, one would save a lot and be able to spend much more on pussy! And in 20 years, its guaranteed that even the worst property gives a advantage in terms of financial investment because this is a typical long term capital investment bound to give profits.

Yes, its a matter of debate for the moment as who knows what lies ahead of us, and whether we will live for another 20 years!! I could be wrong but I doubt it.

Lets, wait and watch!

[QUOTE=Jaggar]These are excellent cases presented thus far and I applaude each contributor. As it stands today, we are enjoying what is basically a 4:1 $AR /$USD swap rate. Should this change, I am sure that many of us here might look elsewhere.

I am currently in a short term place in Palermo Hollywood that sells today for $100K USD. I am renting it for $1000USD. For a single month. Granted this is still low season through September but it is also only a single month rental. If I were to pull money from US, at an easily justifiable and conservative 6% cost, this apartment would run me roughly $500US / mo or roughly half what I am now paying.

Yes, one could continue to rent and throw good money down the argentenian drains. Or purchase. Now which is best?

Please feel free to weigh in on what is an issue yet to be resolved in my mind.

Suerte.

Jaggar[/QUOTE]Properties are always in U$D. Returns on capital are about 5% pa on a 2 year basis. I bought a house here 4 years back, and it has appreciated more than 100% , in U$ terms. Unless you are going to live here permanently, rent. There are more buckets of s hit in Bs As posing as real estate experts than there are street thieves, and that is saying something.

Argento

A couple of years ago and gave it over to a property manager to run for me. They find tenants and I simply go there when I wish. I paid cash and bought a nice dome (the dome of urban heritage) you can see it here:

[url]http://www.bbiargentina.com/rentals/buenos-aires/centro/listing-87.html[/url]

The reason I bought the dome is. Well. Its fucking unbelieveable. I have 360 degree views - can see the cnongresso building full frontal and have geat views elsewhere. I wake up looking at the barolo building. The moncloa restaurant is across the way beside the plaza where I can find many places to have a coffee or eat. If you don't like that just stay at home and eat on one of two terraces big enough to hold a real party!

I love my dome - I am all alone on top of a great building in a stunning location.

I am rented all the time. All. The. Time.

I chose this place because it is unique and not just another cubbyhole in Recoleta.

I don't think it matters if you live in Buenos Aires 2 days a year or every day of the year - rent, don't buy.

You do not want anything to do with Argentina.

If you think Argentina or Buenos Aires is such a great real estate opportunity you must be smoking some really good stuff.

There are great real estate opportunities available but they are not in Argentina or Buenos Aires.

At the end of the day, you will regret getting involved with the tarbaby known as Argentina.

P. S. Listen to what Argento says about the so called real estate experts in Argentina and the so called real estate success stories in Argentina.

Tmontana, your place looks quite spectacular and the rehab tasteful. What does a dome go for these days or even a couple years ago?

Saludos.

[QUOTE=Tmontana]A couple of years ago and gave it over to a property manager to run for me. They find tenants and I simply go there when I wish. I paid cash and bought a nice dome (the dome of urban heritage) you can see it here:

[url]http://www.bbiargentina.com/rentals/buenos-aires/centro/listing-87.html[/url]

The reason I bought the dome is. Well. Its fucking unbelieveable. I have 360 degree views - can see the cnongresso building full frontal and have geat views elsewhere. I wake up looking at the barolo building. The moncloa restaurant is across the way beside the plaza where I can find many places to have a coffee or eat. If you don't like that just stay at home and eat on one of two terraces big enough to hold a real party!

I love my dome - I am all alone on top of a great building in a stunning location.

I am rented all the time. All. The. Time.

I chose this place because it is unique and not just another cubbyhole in Recoleta.[/QUOTE]It's the best I've seen for the money!

If you can buy a place like Tmontana's then it's a no brainer! If it's a shit-box-shoe-box in the sky on any shit street in any shit neighborhood like Recoleta, Palermo, etc, etc, new construction crap hole. Sure, just rent it and watch the property values soar all around you as the new construction falls apart!

WTG TONY!

TL.

P. S - Have you got a Barrett.50?

TL

I posted on 7-13-09 about my problems with getting a "certificado de residencia en el exterior" for the AFIP. I had to have this certificate in order to be able to get a "certificado de retención". Since I'm not a resident, I had to have the retention certificate, before I could sell a home.

Eventually, someone asked a lawyer, who deals with the AFIP, about this and they were told that a letter from my friends, saying that I stayed with them for some amount of time was good enough. This letter had to have an apostille. It also had to have a certified translation done here.

Once I got this certificate of residence abroad, it took about 5 weeks for the AFIP to give me the retention certificate. My accountant did everything with the AFIP, so I don't know any details.

I screwed up when I didn't talk to anyone about transferring the money from this sale out of the country, before I did the boleto. The boleto had the sale price in dollars.

I think that most of the time, the boleto is torn up when you do the escritura. This sale was done under the "blanqueo" program that ended in August. I don't know if that had anything to do with it, but in this case, the boleto was not torn up. According to the escribana, it was a public boleto and because it had the price in dollars, that meant that the escritura also had to have the price in dollars. Both of these papers showed the actual selling price.

The places I talked to that do money transfers, told me that for nonresidents to be able to transfer this money, the escritura must have the price in pesos.

I haven't found out much since then, but it looks like it is quite difficult for nonresidents to transfer money out of here in any case.

If anyone has any information about nonresidents transferring money, it would be nice to know.

[QUOTE=Jaggar]These are excellent cases presented thus far and I applaude each contributor. As it stands today, we are enjoying what is basically a 4:1 $AR /$USD swap rate. Should this change, I am sure that many of us here might look elsewhere.

I am currently in a short term place in Palermo Hollywood that sells today for $100K USD. I am renting it for $1000USD. For a single month. Granted this is still low season through September but it is also only a single month rental. If I were to pull money from US, at an easily justifiable and conservative 6% cost, this apartment would run me roughly $500US / mo or roughly half what I am now paying.

Yes, one could continue to rent and throw good money down the argentenian drains. Or purchase. Now which is best?

Please feel free to weigh in on what is an issue yet to be resolved in my mind.

Suerte.

Jaggar[/QUOTE]When something looks to good to be true, especially in the property business, it usually is.

Investment is never that clear cut. Beaurocracy and legislation (along with the current government) play a huge role in any countries property market.

You may be paying only 500 dollars a month back, but with most mortages (I'm assuming you meant get a fixed rate mortage and buy the place instead of rent, and pay back the mortage payments instead? On a 20-25yr time scale end up costing you 2-2.5 what you paid. So you borrow 100 grand, you'll end up paying at least 200grand back.

So, are you really paying 500 less? Or has the bank just got you by the balls? I would never, ever invest in argentina, or ANY south american country for purely financial reasons. If I had the cash and wanted a holiday home out here, that would be a different story. Although property is never a guarenteed moneymaker, if your clever you make it into one of the safest investments available.

1 simple rule - Buy the most sq. Footage, for the cheapest price, in the nicest area, of the busiest and most lucrative city, which is in a country with a phenominal track record for previous property prices and is in good financial stead.

Ok so it's a long rule, cudda been 3/4 I know haha