Corruption in Argentina

[QUOTE=Seaman]If I remember correctly there is an agreement that only countries in the southern hemisphere are allowed to have a base in Antarctica. That could also be a reason for the Brits to keep control of the Malvinas.[/QUOTE]Pretty much anybody can have a base in Antarctica that is willing to pay the money to operate it. Over 30 countries have permanent bases including many European countries. There are a number of disputed territorial claims but the US and most other countries don't recognize them.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_research_stations_in_Antarctica[/url]

You guys are a funny bunch.

No argies give a fuck what you gringos may think about corruption, what do you think they care what you can say about Falkands war?

What are you the police of the world?

[QUOTE=Fernando22]What are you the police of the world?[/QUOTE]Somebody has to do it, and by default the Americans are the only people with the courage to do the job.

One thing for certain, it's not going to be the Argentina military, because they couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

Thanks,

Jackson

[QUOTE=Easy Go]Perhaps the forced resettlement of a few thousand people is a political possibility in Argentina but I don't think it is in the UK. It might have been barely possible before the war but the lives lost in the war it would make it impossible now. Maybe in 50 years.[/QUOTE]Sure.

[QUOTE=Easy Go]The UK has the wealth to indulge in hobbies that Argentina cannot afford.[/QUOTE]Personally, I don't have any problem about them spending money there. In any case, that doesn't discourage Argentina on the sovereignty claim.

Andres

[QUOTE=Seaman]If I remember correctly there is an agreement that only countries in the southern hemisphere are allowed to have a base in Antarctica. That could also be a reason for the Brits to keep control of the Malvinas.[/QUOTE]That's a strong point. Chile and Argentina claim the Weddell peninsula by using a technical argument (the projection their outermost meridians) In practice, anyone can have a base there (Norway has)

In any case, who can afford anything more than a couple of scientific and military bases? In any case, I deem impossible to settle a large civilian population there on a permanent basis.

[QUOTE=Seaman]I have talked to people who have been involved in the British side of the conflict (the guy who actually pushed the button which fired the torpedo which sank the Belgrano) and with people close to the military government here in Argentina. If you listen to both you hear more or less the same story. It was a "prearranged" war to crank up political support on both sides. But. Nobody expected that the loss of lives would be as high as it got in the end.

But in view of this thread, was the Malvinas war also a case of corruption on Argentina?[/QUOTE]Yes, it was definitely geared by political survival needs. It proved to be a life-jacket to Maggie and a definite sunk for the Argentine military.

I would tag the "patriotic" Malvinas fundraising as one of the most corrupt events of the Argentine history, given the gap between amounts granted amounts that actually arrived to the soldiers. I still painfully remember the TV spots that showed the pity condition in which Argentine Army privates were found on June 14th 1982 at Puerto Argentino.

Andres

[QUOTE=Fernando22]No argies give a fuck what you gringos may think about corruption, what do you think they care what you can say about Falkands war?

What are you the police of the world?[/QUOTE][QUOTE=Jackson]Somebody has to do it, and by default the Americans are the only people with the courage to do the job.[/QUOTE]Oooh, ahhh, welll, That really, really surpass everything I read in this forum.

And who's supposed to have given the North americans mandataries this power, perhaps God Himself?

With due respect, this kind of paranoia has caused enough harm all around the globe.

[QUOTE=Fernando22]You guys are a funny bunch.

No argies give a fuck what you gringos may think about corruption, what do you think they care what you can say about Falkands war?

What are you the police of the world?[/QUOTE]The problem is that the USA HAS to police third world radical country such as you argies.

You argies do give a fuck, because if it wasn't for the US, you would be much worse off than you are now.

It never ceases to amaze me how ignorant argies are, they have there little dumb ass soccer and they seem to always be complaining about everything and anything, but have no idea what makes the world go around.

Let me let you in on a little secret: it is call the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

Argies are and will always be envious.

[QUOTE=Geo Eye]

Let me let you in on a little secret: it is call the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

Argies are and will always be envious[/QUOTE]Before you start waving the stars and strips, think about this: If the US of A is so great, what are you doing here?

I am surprised that nobody has brought up the selling off of YPF for the price of about 9 months of production.

Now that's corruption in its finest I think.

[QUOTE=Gato Hunter]I am surprised that nobody has brought up the selling off of YPF for the price of about 9 months of production.

Now that's corruption in its finest I think.[/QUOTE]Exactly, and it's a perfect example as how corruption ultimately works marvels for corporations from countries where practices are supposedly transparent.

Just one distinction: Privatizations mainly favored European companies since their accounting methods and regulations allowed for payment of bribes, while the American ones didn't. That's one of the reasons for not seeing Bell-Verizon, United / Continental and the such.

Andres

[QUOTE=Fernando22]You guys are a funny bunch.

No argies give a fuck what you gringos may think about corruption, what do you think they care what you can say about Falkands war?

What are you the police of the world?[/QUOTE]What the fuck is a duchts? You have to mean douche, because you're more than a little bit of a douche bag.

Helping place military dictatorships in a number or latin american countries was not ordained by the all mighty up in heaven, but by paranoid humans on earth.

John Wayne is fun to watch in the movies, but horrifying to watch leading a major international power.

There is something called the UN, that preferably should act as the World Police.

I admit that big organisations are slow, but acting too fast is not good either, It would be a shame to have a "shoot first and ask questions later" policy.

Rather than acting as a the Police, sometimes USA gives me the impression to act like an angry lynch mob, taking the law in its own hands rather than waiting for justice.

I must give you (americans) some credit. (as you deserve it) Needless to say, USA plays a very important role in the world. Can anyone imagine the liberation of Kuwait without the participation of USA?

Most of the european countries have very small armies. They are destined to primarily protect the country, not sending troops in a large scale war to far away countries. It would have been almost impossible.

"You have courage to do the job", but the world ask for a bit more consensus.

[QUOTE=Jackson]Somebody has to do it, and by default the Americans are the only people with the courage to do the job.

Thanks,

Jackson[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Julio]With due respect, this kind of paranoia has caused enough harm all around the globe.[/QUOTE]Yea, like that time we attacked France in 1944.

What a bunch of motherfuckers we were then!

[QUOTE=Mike Cockburn]Can anyone imagine the liberation of Kuwait without the participation of USA? [/QUOTE]Maybe, but it is also hard to image the invasion of Kuwait without the participation of the USA. Remember the Iran-Iraq war? We pumped a lot of money and arms into Iraq in those days. Not sure how Saddam got on Bush's bad side. Maybe he called Barbara a dirty *****.

[QUOTE=Mike Cockburn]

"You have courage to do the job", but the world ask for a bit more consensus.[/QUOTE]I wouldn't call it courage. It really comes down to economics. There are plenty of conflicts in poor countries around the world (I. E. Places that pose no economic potential) that we don't give a rat's ass about.

[QUOTE=Julio]With due respect, this kind of paranoia has caused enough harm all around the globe.[/QUOTE]I like it when dictators, despots and similarly-styled criminals suffer from "this kind of paranoia".

[QUOTE=Schmoj]Before you start waving the stars and strips, think about this: If the US of A is so great, what are you doing here?[/QUOTE]Fucking their women, of course.

In this category, I agree: The rest of the world has us beat.

Lets have a reality check.

The reason the US is the worlds police is to keep the arms manufacturers and other huge multinationals in business. Bechtel and Halliburton are some of the biggest winners in the current conflict. The losers are the dead / wounded kids.

War is big business.

Oh and the fact that who ever controls the oil wins helps too.

If I were a betting man (witch I am) I would place a huge wager that within the next 10 years the US will find some reason to move into Africa. Africa is primed for plundering by the big companies. Sort of like Latin America was in the last 20 years.

"Can anyone imagine the liberation of Kuwait without the participation of USA?"

Did anybody [b]give a shit[/b] about the liberation of Kuwait?

[QUOTE=Gato Hunter]If I were a betting man (witch I am) I would place a huge wager that within the next 10 years the US will find some reason to move into Africa. Africa is primed for plundering by the big companies. Sort of like Latin America was in the last 20 years.[/QUOTE]We are already there. [url]http://www.africom.mil/[/url]

Jes

[QUOTE=Jackson]Fucking their women, of course.

In this category, I agree: The rest of the world has us beat.[/QUOTE]I concur,

Though my Southern California chicks are still in the running.

Regards,

BM

[QUOTE=Schmoj]Before you start waving the stars and strips, think about this: If the US of A is so great, what are you doing here?[/QUOTE]I am living in The USA, but I do go to buenos aires to fuck cheap young wores.

And I do love the food in argentina.

To be fair, the US is not perfect, we have made mistake and hell, sometimes I am embarrass by Bush and his admisnistration, but some people do not regonized the great oppurtinity thier is in the US.

My whole beef is the ignorance with the argies who walk around wearing blinders, never been outside a 30 miles radius.

By the way, traveling all over the world and taking my money anywhere in the world is part of the one of the greatness of the US.

[QUOTE=Dickhead]"Can anyone imagine the liberation of Kuwait without the participation of USA?"

Did anybody [b]give a shit[/b] about the liberation of Kuwait?[/QUOTE]I did.

Thanks,

Jackson

The past few weeks have been a real showcase for the members of this forum unused to the thought processes of Argentinians. After general and specific derogatory statements made by board members, me included, 2 great champions of the Argentine way waved the flag. Never mind the status that the international community awards Argentinian business and government ethics, these 2 guys defended with rhetorical zeal, the greatness and high principles of Argentina and Argentinians. No surprise really. When reality and Argentinian perception of reality need to be compared, Argentinians without fail grasp the perception. The great example in the past few years has been the building of the paper mill in Uruguay. Argentinia was pissed that the mill was built there rather than in Argentina and set up a protest that ended in a case before the world court. The court found in favour of the Uruguay position but the decision was not unanimous. I think it was 15-1, the sole Argentine jurist finding in favour of Argentina. Funny that! Since then, Argentina has been as destructive as it can be by restricting access to Uruguay, a bit like a spoiled child denied its way really. And to what end? And generally supported by the public at large who seem to think, along with with their politicians, that they have a pre-emptive right to determine the internal decisions of Uruguay, a position specifically rejected by the World Court. Has Argentine backed off and recognised that their position had no standing in international law? Not likely! They have appealed the decision (verdict still to come) and continued with intimidating their midget neighbor with as much grief as they can without declaring all-out economic war. Rather like Andres and co. No matter what this forum's members experiences are, no matter how truthfully they are recounted, the problems we recount are because we are stupid, have principles that are out-dated and that the Argentinians are the cleverest people in the world. As the saying goes when I was a boy, 'If you are so smart, how come you are not rich'?

Argento

Here's a typical Argie attitude for you. A friend of mine was down here and I hooked him up with an Argie chica. He recorded some music for her. When she went to load more music, she accidentally erased it all.

So when he came back, he recorded 12 DVDs worth of music for her, over 10,000 songs. He gave me the disks to give to her. But, she doesn't have a DVD. So I told her I would burn them onto CDs or memory sticks or something for her. But I can't do that until my housemate gets back since I don't have a DVD burner.

Now she's convinced that I am trying to cheat her or make a profit off this somehow, plus she wants "to be the first one to listen to them." I'm not even going to be listening to them while I am ripping them. My idea is to put it all on an external hard drive so she can at least see what she wants or doesn't want, but now I think I'll just give her the disks and tell her to shove them up her ass.

Because the country is so fundamentally and pervasively corrupt, she just can't grasp the idea that I would help her out with this even though I am not fucking her any more. She is just convinced I am trying to get over on her somehow, because that's how life works here. This mental state exists even though she knows I have plenty of music and and plenty of money.

I agree on part what you say about corruption in Argentina.

But my impression is that argies really don't give a fuck what people in a forum of gatos like this can say about it. Some of them even sound to me like they were mocking you. You all take too serious the matter.

The same is about who pay more or pay less about the chicks.

I am living in Argentina for more than a year now and I get acquainted argies pay less for chicks. You don't want to see it, you want to go on believing american people are the champions of the world, O. K. Go on believing. WTF?

I'm form Netherlands and I know that argies chicken prefer argies or western european people even they get less money. You don't want to believe this? O. K. WTF?

I like Argentina and argentine people, allthough corruption exists. But I have been in other countries of Latin American and it is worse. Much worse in Colombia or Ecuador. And they are not as friendly as argentine people are and they not have the women are here.

[QUOTE=Fernando22]But my impression is that argies really don't give a fuck what people in a forum of gatos like this can say about it. Some of them even sound to me like they were mocking you. You all take too serious the matter.

The same is about who pay more or pay less about the chicks.[/QUOTE]There is a local forum where these exact issues are discussed. Not much irrelevant rambling about politics, cocksuckers, etc over there, though.

[QUOTE=Fernando22]I am living in Argentina for more than a year now and I get acquainted argies pay less for chicks. You don't want to see it, you want to go on believing american people are the champions of the world, O. K. Go on believing. WTF?[/QUOTE]You'll get no argument from me about that. One of the reasons I don't live there anymore.

[QUOTE=Fernando22]I'm form Netherlands and I know that argies chicken prefer argies or western european people even they get less money. You don't want to believe this? O. K. WTF?[/QUOTE]What you are saying doesn't make much sense to me, especially for working girls.

The things they would be attracted to about a Western European would be pretty much the same for North Americans - money, treated with more respect, etc.

[QUOTE=Fernando22]I like Argentina and argentine people, allthough corruption exists. But I have been in other countries of Latin American and it is worse. Much worse in Colombia or Ecuador. And they are not as friendly as argentine people are and they not have the women are here.[/QUOTE]Are you doing anything related to money here, or are you studying / travelling? If it is the latter, you have no idea how corrupt it can be.

[QUOTE=Schmoj]Are you doing anything related to money here, or are you studying / travelling? If it is the latter, you have no idea how corrupt it can be.[/QUOTE]True I am doing minor related things involving money here, only renting a small apt. In San Telmo. But my father's girlfriend has a big charge in the Police Dept. And true there must be all kind of things there.

But again, WTF?

The day I don't like Argentina anymore I will go to another place. So what is I don't undestand about many here. Unless you are a lot of old guys who can hardly move, and sometimes you look like it, why don't you go to another place you like more?

I have been in Barranquilla (Colombia) and you almost can't walk on the streets there. Once I saw a guy shoot down in front my eyes. And then the guy climb up a motorcycle wich was waiting there with another guy and get out before a lot of eyes. Nobody cares. So here is not so bad.

I like Argentine people because they are intelligent and one can see this in the kind of answers they have given you: only two of them put you all in a blaze. Particullary Andres. I like that guy.

Taked to an Argie chica on the weekend who says she charges Argys Double just to get rid of them. She wonders why none of them can afford a good haircut, but then again some Argys won't want to believe that either. WTF?

True problem here. More like a way of living. From up the political elite to the lowest levels.

Just an illustration of how Argentinos think of other people in general.

I am trying to find a house to live in here in Argentina. Should be a pretty simple thing to do. Of course, as those who are foreigners and don't own property know (well, even if you're an Argentino and don't own property, or know someone who owns property and is willing to back you) it can be very difficult to find property of any sort.

I looked at a place that was just off the Panamericana after the Tigre turnoff. It was not in a country, but the add for the house looked like it could be in a nice neighborhood. I was actually on the way to Pilar to look at some houses in countries, but this was on my way, so I figured I'd have a look.

The neighborhood wasn't all that great. It actually had a nice park on the way to the house I was looking at, but that was about all it had going for it. It was near an idustrial park, and houses were small, many crumbling, chain link fences mixed with walls, etc.

The house itself was not bad from the outside. We went in and one of the first things the owner told us was "this house is my world. When I cross the threshold, the outside world ceases to exist. I don't know any of my neighbors, and I don't want to. I leave only when I have to, for work or to pick up something I need, but I never say hi to anyone."

Well, ok, even for here that can be a bit extreme I think. As well, I actually know some people in the States who are like that. It's just that her statement really struck me as a bit odd, saying this to someone she'd only just met and was considering renting her house, and I thought I'd share it.

So I won't go into details about the house. By the time we had looked around a bit, I wasn't really considering renting it, but I wanted to find out some information about how an owner, not going through a real estate agent, would think about the leasing of her house.

Her plan was to rent her house out and go rent an apartment for her and her daughter in the city so she could be closer to work.

I asked her if she was looking for a guarantee. She said yes. I said, well, as you could probably tell from my accent, I'm a foreigner and I don't own property; I don't have a guarantee. She said, well, I really need a guarantee. So I ask her if I could put a substantial portion of the money up front in place of a guarantee and start paying the rent immediately, stopping when I'd paid the amount of the lease including my down payment. I was thinking of somewhere between six months and a year.

She though about it then said the only thing she would accept was all of the 24 months of the lease up front. After all, she said (and this is the crux of how she is thinking) "in this country people hurt and take advantage of each other all the time. I have to make sure you don't hurt me. What would happen if you stopped paying me? How would I pay the rent on my apartment in the city?"

Now, I don't blame her, understand. I know why she has that attitude - just look at the corruption and lack of protection against the very thing that would make it easy for her to get me out of her house, for example, and get a paying customer in there.

I met a financier from N. America the other night, and he was telling me that he is going back in a month or so. He specializes in hi-salaried people, helping them to make investments and grow their money. He said that he is leaving because there are so few people here that could trust a bank or anyone else with their money to begin with - and he is providing investment outside of the country, not based on Argentine economics.

But someone in this thread asked why so much of us foreigners were here if things like this drove us nuts?

Well, for the moment, it is still a place for foreign visitors to come and get pretty pussy at a reasonable price. That's an easy thing for the visitors. There are even some longer-term residents who also stay here for that reason, and tolerate the idiocies that they find here because of that.

There are those like me who can take advantage of the still relatively cheap technical labor resources and the fact that, at least here in Capital Federal, the training is fairly good, and although it can be hit or miss, the infrastructure can be good as well. Of course as I write this, my internet connection, which is supposed to be "3 megas" from FiberTel (I think if they actually have any fiber within kilometers of me it must be plant fiber, or maybe spider silk from cobwebs) and from which I am lucky to get 300 kbs on a good day, is really sucking and I'm actually getting about 100 kbs from right now, so one never knows.

So to answer that question of why - because there are still things to be had here in Argentina, but the Argentinos don't seem to realize that they are pricing themselves out of even that game with the inflation that is making it more and more difficult to enjoy things here.

It would be different if things were getting more expensive because the country as a whole were moving upward, services were increasing, corruption lessening, idiotically unfair labor laws and general practices being rolled back. There would be less feelings of exasperation from those who have seen things done better because we would be able to actually enjoy life instead of spending a lot of it trying to find ways to make life better here.

The fact is, most of us here have a love-hate relationship because we do see the Argentinos individually as nice people and people who we would often like to call friends, it's the overall effect that brings us down.

Thank you for sharing your information.

[QUOTE=El Queso]Well, for the moment, it is still a place for foreign visitors to come and get pretty pussy at a reasonable price. That's an easy thing for the visitors. There are even some longer-term residents who also stay here for that reason, and tolerate the idiocies that they find here because of that.[/QUOTE]Jes

[QUOTE=El Queso]The fact is, most of us here have a love-hate relationship because we do see the Argentinos individually as nice people and people who we would often like to call friends, it's the overall effect that brings us down.[/QUOTE]Amen brother!

[QUOTE=Dickhead]Here's a typical Argie attitude for you. A friend of mine was down here and I hooked him up with an Argie chica. He recorded some music for her. When she went to load more music, she accidentally erased it all.

So when he came back, he recorded 12 DVDs worth of music for her, over 10,000 songs. He gave me the disks to give to her. But, she doesn't have a DVD. So I told her I would burn them onto CDs or memory sticks or something for her. But I can't do that until my housemate gets back since I don't have a DVD burner.

Now she's convinced that I am trying to cheat her or make a profit off this somehow, plus she wants "to be the first one to listen to them." I'm not even going to be listening to them while I am ripping them. My idea is to put it all on an external hard drive so she can at least see what she wants or doesn't want, but now I think I'll just give her the disks and tell her to shove them up her ass.

Because the country is so fundamentally and pervasively corrupt, she just can't grasp the idea that I would help her out with this even though I am not fucking her any more. She is just convinced I am trying to get over on her somehow, because that's how life works here. This mental state exists even though she knows I have plenty of music and and plenty of money.[/QUOTE]More than an economic problem or a political problem I'm persuaded high nosed argies have a problem in their heads.