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Excellent post, Julio. But you're still racists. I live here (five years) speak the language, have been to the majority of the provinces (by bus and train) spend plenty of time in the provincias, and it's still the most racist country I've ever been to. And, there are way more scoundrels here on a percentage basis than in the US. Maybe 2-3 times as many. That could be a product of economics; I don't discount that. 40% of the population or something like that lives in GBA and way more than 40% of the scoundrels live in GBA. It's definitely been my experience that Argentina is more honest outside of Buenos Aires, but it's also been my experience that it is [b]even more[/b] racist outside of Buenos Aires.
But no, it would certainly be bad to turn it into Hong Kong, where I would never want to live (and yes, I've been there)
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Julio.
I have many good argentinian friends, even my best friend is argentinian.
He is one hell of a person (a good thing). He is a person with high values, a person I respect, but he is also what you call, "muy piola", "Sabe todos los trucos".
There are many good people in Argentina. But the majority is not, and it is reflected in the society as a whole. It is true, it is a generalization.
The average Argentinian (porteņo) is a "chanta". It is so rooted in the society. It is even in the vocabulary. I my own mothertoungue there isn't a word for plomero "de confianza", gasista "de confianza", eletricista "de confianza", etc.
The closest match is "authorized plumber" (plomero publico, plomero matriculado) But it is not the same. They are all authorized, it is just to diffrentiate him from "cacho del barrio" or your friend, the handyman.
They are all "de confianza". You just grab the yellow pages and pick one without giving it a second thought. They will all do a good work.
It is hard to find a good translation for "garca" too.
Both "Garca" and "me cagaron" are used on daily basis here.
Normally, you get screwed very seldom in europe.
There isn't a good translation for "trucho" either. Isn't that too, a true 100% argentinian word? The vocabulary is extended based on needs. That is why the icelanders have 100 words for snow, and the argentinians have so many words for bad things.
There is an argentinian joke. "Los argentinos, tenemos lo peor de los gallegos why lo peor de los tanos". It wouldn't be funny, if it didn't have some degree of thruth in it.
I don't think you are a racist people. Far from it. It is not a black and white thing;) There are shades of gray. The argentinians are on the lighter scale.
I don't think a true non-racist society is possible. Not for at least another 100 years.
I prefer having my kids grow up here than growing up with the racism in europe.
Argentina has many good things too. This thread doesn't give the total picture. It started, out with a question on racism. Someone said that the argentinians are freespoken and politically incorrect, that that behaviour sometimes can be mistaken for racism or discrimination. But we seem to disagree. Dickhead thinks that the argentinians are the most racist people in the world.
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[QUOTE=Mike Cockburn]Dickhead thinks that the argentinians are the most racist people in the world.[/QUOTE]No, what I [b]said[/b] was they were the most racist people I've ever encountered. There's a whole continent I haven't visited. I've only been to 30 countries, of which I lived in 6 or 7, depending on your definitions.
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[QUOTE=Dickhead]No, what I [b]said[/b] was they were the most racist people I've ever encountered. There's a whole continent I haven't visited. I've only been to 30 countries, of which I lived in 6 or 7, depending on your definitions.[/QUOTE]I think that in this case, the perception of racism it's strongly related with your own perception, in my case I have lived in more countries than you did, and never felt discriminated, perhaps because I'm hansome and good looking, but I have friends who are even more good looking than I am and they get a reverse-discrimination, which is fast traslated in more girls around that I get. Some countries like Chile with 80% of aborigin mixed population, Ecuador, or Peru (common mixture of black slaves, chinese slaves, and aborigin slaves) they only consume US-imported movies, and their models are white, blueyed blonde guys and girls as models-for-life, and they feel inferior, since they are unable to modify their genes, so any european shaped guy will be a kind of god / godness and idealized, as the model shown on the media. May be it's because Argentina is a country populated by white people and european ancestors, so your expectations for reverse-discrimination were higher, thinking of Argentina as another third word country, financialy undeveloped country or just South American country, you feel dissapointed and that's why you say people is racist in Argentina.
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[QUOTE=Dickhead]Excellent post, Julio. But you're still racists. I live here (five years) speak the language, have been to the majority of the provinces (by bus and train) spend plenty of time in the provincias, and it's still the most racist country I've ever been to. And, there are way more scoundrels here on a percentage basis than in the US. Maybe 2-3 times as many. That could be a product of economics; I don't discount that. 40% of the population or something like that lives in GBA and way more than 40% of the scoundrels live in GBA. It's definitely been my experience that Argentina is more honest outside of Buenos Aires, but it's also been my experience that it is [b]even more[/b] racist outside of Buenos Aires.
But no, it would certainly be bad to turn it into Hong Kong, where I would never want to live (and yes, I've been there)[/QUOTE]Thanks, Dickhead.
Agreed about Hong Kong.
But I'm affraid we'll never agree about racism.
At least until we don't re-define what each one of us undestands about racism.
If racism has the same meaning as I intend, I don't think Argentina is, in your own words, "the most racist country you've ever been to", according you've been in England, France, or the United States. I've never seen here any black guy mauled by a police patrol only because he's got a different colour of skin, as all the world saw a few years ago in Los Angeles. Nor never seen in Buenos Aires any black man, or paraguayo or boliviano by the case, burned alive like the Ku Kux Klan used to do with black people until not so long ago. Not to mention the wild represions against algerian and muslims of all kind set in France since the arrival of Sarkozy. Or the racial problems every day are shown in England (just remeber the (egyptian? guy shot down in the subway only because he was suspected of terrorism). Or the anti-semit scuadrons still crossing the nights of Munich or Hamburg.
Some porteņos make fun of paraguayos, that's true, but as someone else punctuated here it's in a funny way, not offensive, and they (the paraguayos, the bolivianos) know that, and even them sometimes make fun of themselves.
That's not racism.
At least as I undestand the word.
Thanks again for your compliments, and I hope this new lines don't make you change your mind about my posts, but yes about the racism in Argentina.
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[QUOTE=Mike Cockburn]I prefer having my kids grow up here than growing up with the racism in europe. [/QUOTE]Thanks, Mike.
Those words are the best conclusion for all that I tried to say.
My great-grandfathers were french, and I'm sure they thought the same when they choose this country for raising their son.
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Just to add my two cents, most racist country, the good old USA. Lived in Los Angeles 30 some years and the poor people here are going through a period of transition in the the poorer areas. Race riots are common in high schools, I believe its because of the growing power of prison gangs who segregate themselves by race in prison and exert their influence on the streets.
In affluent areas its not that notable, but lately I, as a dark skinned latino, have noticed people's nervousness when they see me walking down the street. This used to happen to me when I was younger, but now its becoming more prevalent. And I don't even dress like a thug! Never have.
Mexico City, Mexico, also racist, the rest of the country, not very much at all. Its not uncommon for me when I go shopping in Mexico City to be ignored as I stand at a counter (I chose jeans, tennis shoes and long sleeved shirts as my mode of dress) I believed I'm perceived as a poor indian with no money to spend as to the reason for my treatment. I have been spoken down to by locals and once in a restaurant when I was 14 and carrying my guitar, this older gentleman insisted I play a song for him and his girlfriend. After obliging him, do you know what this guy said to me? Indians are gifted in music but little else, I'll never have the gifts that God bestowed on the descendants of Spain. I could go on and on about incidents like these, these incidents stopped when I reached the age of 22. Probably because they perceive me as someone who will stab 'em dead if offended. Ha!
I've had minor racist incidents in BA, nothing compared to what I've experienced in LA, Mexico City or Germany. Even Mexican-Americans who appear more European than Indian have given me reason to pause. About 5 months ago a person I met said to me "When I first saw you I thought I was going to need a Spanish-English dictionary. I quickly realized I just needed a dictionary".
Argentinians are really quite well mannered to people in general, even if racism is as pervasive as some opinions have suggested. One can't expect to be loved by everyone all the time.
I hope we can all let this topic rest. In my traveling experience everybody seems to have issues with somebody, even if its with its own people.
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[QUOTE=Julio]...The Elysian Fields.[/QUOTE]You don't see this expression very often. Kudos.
[QUOTE=Julio]Argentinians are really quite well mannered to people in general, even if racism is as pervasive as some opinions have suggested.[/QUOTE]And I agree, the Argentineans are the most well mannered racists I've ever met, second to the Japanese, who are the world's most well-mannered racists.
Thanks,
Jackson
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[QUOTE=Jackson]You don't see this expression very often. Kudos.
And I agree, the Argentineans are the most well mannered racists I've ever met second to the Japanese, who are the world's most well-mannered racists.
Thanks,
Jackson[/QUOTE]Now it is being discussed, other words spring to the tongue.
Inconsiderate.
Hypocrite.
Insincere.
Opportunist.
Guile.
Rapacious.
Mendacious.
Sure they are polite and effuse friendship and helpfulness on meeting. Kissy kissy and gladhanders all. Nothing too much trouble. In the real, occidental world, panhandler is the word that best fits. But they all play the game and they all know the rules. Us gringos assume the same rules as in the occident apply. It is a big mistake because they don't. As someone once said; 'Do you think the USA would have invaded Iraq if it had 20% of the world's broccoli?' I say, 'Do you think that the Argentines who you call your friends, would be hanging around if you didn't have dough?' For those challenged by the questions, the answer is no in both instances. Sure there are a few Argentines I call friends and who have been put to the test. But there are a darn side more who failed and went for the dough, some subtley, but most quickly and crudely. Of course these people exist everywhere, it's just that most of them gravitated to Buenos Aires. The same is not for the true country people, of all classes. They in general are great value and genuinely allow you to share each other's lives.
Argento
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Oh well here I fear you are going to far.
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Just coloreds?
[QUOTE=Sidney]Recently, have been banned from working at La Madeleine before midnight![/QUOTE]Sid-I heard all gatos had been barred until after 12. Not true?
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[QUOTE=Doggboy]Sid-I heard all gatos had been barred until after 12. Not true?[/QUOTE]I heard the same thing. All chicas not specifically any colour have been asked not to hang around till after midnight.
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Mis 2 centavos.
The OP was curious about argentinian attitudes towards asians.
I haven't been to argentina yet, but I dated a chica who was raised in Argentina. She sometimes made ridiculous comments about asians that I can't believe she said with a straight face. It really showed her ignorance, I told her this, but she acted as if she was merely stating facts.