Corruption in Argentina

[QUOTE=Mike Cockburn]Industry, was thought in terms of production. Maybe it is not the correct term, but the agriculture is a form of industry, Its production is industrialized, in its extension there are plants (factories) that make flour and oil from the seeds.

The big exporters are surely making a fortune. The primary fault of the tax, was that it was based on the revenue rather than the profit. That is why it was so unfair for small producers, apart from being so high.[/QUOTE]The problem with using the term industry in this case is that, paradoxically, many farmers are leaving "production" of milk and meat to planting and exporting soy, because the latter is much more profitable and demands much less investment in terms of manpower. In fact one of the concerns of letting farmers getting away with a "low" sliding scale is that prices of basic foods such as milk and meat will rise given the surge in internal demand and stagnating productions levels.

Andres

[QUOTE=Argento]You have a great misunderstanding about what is income, (profit) and what is cash-flow. Income, (profit) is what you have left after your costs.[/QUOTE]Wrong. Income and profit are two different concepts.

[QUOTE=Argento] At some stage, and with the decline in soy prices, after selling their products, all the income will be main-lined to the government.[/QUOTE]Wrong. That would happen with a fixed, high tax rate, not with a sliding one. In fact, many members of FAA wonder what they had to gain with rejecting the proposal sent to the Congress, since now they are worse off with a fixed 35% tax rate.

[QUOTE=Argento] Methinks this is the Peronist class-war; the workers against the landed gentry, represented in a different guise.[/QUOTE]There is a class struggle, that's for sure. We already discussed it.

[QUOTE=Argento] And incidently, the reality is that broad-acre crops are an industrial product.

Argento[/QUOTE]Not in the way Rock tried to refer to since, with the exception of soy oil, they are not transformed or manufactured in Argentina, merely exported as crops.

Andres

[QUOTE=Argento]It just proves that Rock Harder's old boss was perhaps a triffle harsh in saying how stupid Argentinos are.

Argento[/QUOTE]OK. Argento, you try to sound smart insulting one time after the other the Argentine people like that, but the true is that I've never seen in my life so resentful and dumb a fellow as you.

No wonder you paid U$S 10.000 of a bribe no one, with a minimun of common sense, would have ever paid.

[QUOTE=Julio]OK. Argento, you try to sound smart insulting one time after the other the Argentine people like that, but the true is that I've never seen in my life so resentful and dumb a fellow as you.

No wonder you paid U$S 10.000 of a bribe no one, with a minimun of common sense, would have ever paid.[/QUOTE]I honestly swear to God don't mean to offend, but this again is so typically Argentine. Not that the bribe in and of itself is wrong, but rather that you paid too big of a bribe. So appropriate for this thread.

In most developed countries, it's against the law not only to receive a bribe but to pay one as well. Not saying good, not saying bad. I will say though that I think it harms your country, 1 dollar or 10,000 dollars. The entire culture of corruption will forever limit Argentina in it's development.

Which is great for me because, like Dickhead, I don't want to bank or own a business there, just live and fuck lots of cute girls. I hope it never changes. Bring on the next crisis!

Can we put a sock in our respective mouths?

We are poles apart and will never convince the opposing side to ammend their views.

As this is my last post on this particular issue, I give you, the 'deluded duo', last reply. My question is a simple one.

Why is it that Argentinians have a per capita income 6 times less than the USA and Australia, given that they had a 100 year start on the USA and 300 years start on Australia, with equal if not better natural resources to begin with?

Argento

[QUOTE=Argento]Can we put a sock in our respective mouths?

We are poles apart and will never convince the opposing side to ammend their views.[/QUOTE]That's the first sensible thing I hear from you.

But I remind you who began with the aggressions.

[QUOTE=Argento]As this is my last post on this particular issue, I give you, the 'deluded duo', last reply. My question is a simple one.

Why is it that Argentinians have a per capita income 6 times less than the USA and Australia, given that they had a 100 year start on the USA and 300 years start on Australia, with equal if not better natural resources to begin with?[/QUOTE]Does THAT, perhaps, explain why YOU paid a bribe no one with an I. Q. Standard of intelligence would have ever paid?

Don't jump into a train that you never participate in its construction.

Maradona made the best gol of the World Cup history, but not for that I'll consider myself the King of Futbol. In fact, I play it very bad. You should read a little more about the construction of the capital in the developed nations. The operation wasn't so clear and un-corrupt as you imply it were.

[QUOTE=Daddy Rulz]I honestly swear to God don't mean to offend, but this again is so typically Argentine. Not that the bribe in and of itself is wrong, but rather that you paid too big of a bribe. So appropriate for this thread.

In most developed countries, it's against the law not only to receive a bribe but to pay one as well. Not saying good, not saying bad. I will say though that I think it harms your country, 1 dollar or 10,000 dollars. The entire culture of corruption will forever limit Argentina in it's development.

Which is great for me because, like Dickhead, I don't want to bank or own a business there, just live and fuck lots of cute girls. I hope it never changes. Bring on the next crisis![/QUOTE]Daddy, here's something about corruption in the United States of America.:

[url]http://www.world-of-wisdom.com/04_articles/2002/05_corruption.htm[/url]

[url]http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-01-03-abramoff-side_x.htm[/url]

[url]http://iiipublishing.blogspot.com/2007/05/corruption-in-usa.html[/url]

[url]http://www.methuen.k12.ma.us/pathfinders/Political%20Corruption.htm[/url]

and a youtube direction when you get tired of reading:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CJuvNJyTT8[/url]

[QUOTE=Julio]Daddy, here's something about corruption in the United States of America.:

[url]http://www.world-of-wisdom.com/04_articles/2002/05_corruption.htm[/url]

[url]http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-01-03-abramoff-side_x.htm[/url]

[url]http://iiipublishing.blogspot.com/2007/05/corruption-in-usa.html[/url]

[url]http://www.methuen.k12.ma.us/pathfinders/Political%20Corruption.htm[/url]

and a youtube direction when you get tired of reading:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CJuvNJyTT8[/url][/QUOTE]Most of these guys are in jail, not at home missing a little of the money they stole because they were able to pay their way out of jail. Though to be fair, OJ did the same, but his wife was a Gringa so no big deal just one less gold digging frigid white chick to pollute the landscape.

You're right Maradona did score one of the coolest goals in World Cup history. Not exactly sure what that has to do with corruption in Argentina but it is true none the less.

Oh yes, I almost forgot, you told Argento, how did you say that, oh yea "You should read a little more about the construction of the capital in the developed nations." At the turn of the 19th century Argentina had the highest per capita income in the entire world, it was THE developed country. So what happened besides Peron and the corrupt legacy He left behind to leave it where it is today, one first world city in a third world country?

Honestly, I hope you guys never wise up, I swear I do. It's in my best interests for the country to stay as fucked up, I love it just like it is. Just don't try to tell me it's not fucked up when it is brother.

Best wishes, good luck in life, good luck in business, saludos a tu familia y besos para tus padres.

[QUOTE=Daddy Rulz]Most of these guys are in jail, not at home missing a little of the money they stole because they were able to pay their way out of jail. [/QUOTE]If corruption involves appropiating things by force, and if the term "things" involves entire countries where succulent oil wells exists, then the President of the United States of America must be The Bigger Corrupt of the Whole World, Daddy. And as longs as I know, he's free.

[QUOTE=Daddy Rulz]At the turn of the 19th century Argentina had the highest per capita income in the entire world, it was THE developed country. So what happened besides Peron and the corrupt legacy He left behind to leave it where it is today, one first world city in a third world country?[/QUOTE]In fact, the problem is exactly the opposite: a third world city in a first food producer country.

[QUOTE=Daddy Rulz]Best wishes, good luck in life, good luck in business, saludos a tu familia why besos para tus padres.[/QUOTE]Thank you. My regards to your family too.

[QUOTE=Julio]If corruption involves appropiating things by force, and if the term "things" involves entire countries where succulent oil wells exists, then the President of the United States of America must be The Bigger Corrupt of the Whole World, Daddy.[/QUOTE]You will know that we are in complete agreement, George W is the second worst President in my country's history, beaten only by the singular President from my home State James Buchanan. He openly sold access to, and favors from, the Oval Office. I think W is more evil than corrupt though. The Penguin now that's the corrupt mother fucker. (Sorry Jax, but it's my opinion and we still live in the land of the somewhat free and home of the kinda brave)

You guys are still way, way ahead. Can't mention Iraq without opening yourself up to the political reasons behind the invasion of the Malvinas brother. The dying remnants of a corrupt regime starting a war, sending ill equipped young men to die for a worthless cause, in order to generate political support. Sound familiar?

The funny (funny tragic, not funny haha) part was they actually expected the EEUU to come in on the side of Argentina against England. I know we were grossly in violation of the treaty existing between EEUU and Argentina (I forget it's name but like NATO between the countries of N America and S America) in supplying the targeting data for that missile that sank that Argentine ship. While I respect the memory of the men that died on it, anybody who thinks we won't trash all treaties when England is involved is delusional.

Other weird thing, turns out there was oil around the Malvinas all the time. Kind of makes you go hmmmm. That was 20 years before Iraq brother.

[QUOTE=Daddy Rulz]Can't mention Iraq without opening yourself up to the political reasons behind the invasion of the Malvinas brother. The dying remnants of a corrupt regime starting a war, sending ill equipped young men to die for a worthless cause, in order to generate political support. Sound familiar? [/QUOTE]Are you really comparing Iraq and Malvinas? Come on, brother.:-)

Julio offers the typical Argentine response when anyone suggests that corruption in Argentina is the difference between the USA and the Argentine economies. They'll discount the crippling effect of corruption here by citing some isolated examples of corruption in the USA, without actually addressing the question as to why the Argentina economy is always in the toilet.

Okay Julio, I'll ask the question more directly:

"[i]Assuming that corruption is as rampant in the USA as it is in Argentina, then how, given essentially the same natural resources and the same immigrant population over essentially the same period of time, did the USA build the world's strongest economy while Argentine lurches from one economic collapse to another?[/i]"

Thanks,

Jackson

[QUOTE=Schmoj]Are you really comparing Iraq and Malvinas? Come on, brother.:-)[/QUOTE]There are similarities I think, but my reason for painting this picture was because Julio said that Bush going to war in Iraq was a corrupt act in that is was like Grand Larceny between nation states (to steal Tom Clancy's definition of war) I think there are, in that limited sense, parallels between Iraq and The Malvinas, so I made the comparison. I adamantly believe that they were both ill conceived, poorly executed, and doomed to fail attempts at gunboat diplomacy.

I have been in opposition to the Iraq invasion (part 2) since the build up. I won't argue this fact with any members of the board in this venue because my mind is as closed to change as theirs are. I only stated this in response to your politely (thank you very much) phrased question. The war in Iraq wasn't ever about stability in the region, WMDs, or liberating the Iraqi people. It was and is about oil and money. I'm not against either, I just hate it when somebody pisses in my ear and tells me it's raining. I do think however in some delusional place in their world view the Axis of Evil (Rhumsfeld, Chaney, and Wolfiwitz) honestly thought that after we had boots on the ground in Baghdad that somehow everything through some magical process would just be hunkey dorey, hence no real or effective planning for any period of time since Sadams statue got pulled down.

Before I get painted as some neo hippy, communist faggot cheese eating surrender monkey by the right wing reactionaries on this board. I was in support of Iraq 1, and the invasion of Afghanistan. I also said, again before the invasion during the bullshit Clinton was doing in Iraq, that if we are going to do anything there (not advocating that we should) we should level the fucking country and declare it the 51st state. Bringing in Starbucks, McDonald's, big fat N American families and great big fucking Army bases. The very minute we leave that country some new strong man will be dictator for life, I only hope he's pro us (meaning the US of A) because I won't lie, I like 3.00 a gallon gas better than 4.00.

I won't respond further to any flames about this post on this board and will delete this post tomorrow. I'm digging the discusion about corruption in S America, and would like to see it continue. If you want to flame me do it in "American Politics" I can ignore you (universal you, not Schmoj you, thanks again for being polite in your opposition) just as easily there as I can here.

[QUOTE=Jackson]Julio offers the typical Argentine response when anyone suggests that corruption in Argentina is the difference between the USA and the Argentine economies. They'll discount the crippling effect of corruption here by citing some isolated examples of corruption in the USA, without actually addressing the question as to why the Argentina economy is always in the toilet.

Okay Julio, I'll ask the question more directly:

"[I]Assuming that corruption is as rampant in the USA as it is in Argentina, then how is it, given essentially the same natural resources and the same immigrant population over essentially the same period of time, did the USA build the world's strongest economy while Argentine lurches from one economic collapse to another?[/i]"

Thanks, Jackson[/QUOTE]I fear however you will have as much luck finding an Argentine to answer this question directly as Diogenes did in finding an honest man, but keep the lamp lit.

[QUOTE=Jackson]Julio offers the typical Argentine response when anyone suggests that corruption in Argentina is the difference between the USA and the Argentine economies. They'll discount the crippling effect of corruption here by citing some isolated examples of corruption in the USA,...(...)([/QUOTE]Come on, Jackson, I've only copied a few internet sites of the 2.085 pages Google has to offer about corruption in the U. S. A. It was nearly noon and I was hungry for lunch.

[QUOTE=Jackson]Okay Julio, I'll ask the question more directly:

"[I]Assuming that corruption is as rampant in the USA as it is in Argentina, then how it is, given essentially the same natural resources and the same immigrant population over essentially the same period of time, did the USA build the world's strongest economy while Argentine lurches from one economic collapse to another?[/i]"[/QUOTE]Then, as you yourself have exposed the reasoning, must be because U.S.A. is MORE corrupt than Argentina.

Let's see: corruption involves essentialy money. The more money you have the more potentialy corrupt you are (not YOU, Jackson, God forbid! I am talking in an impersonal way. I make clear this because everyone here is so susceptible...) More money, as everybody knows in this capitalist world, means more power. Some said "absolute power begets absolute corruption". The initial accumulation of capital made by the U. S. A. In the XIXth. And XXth. Century (by legal and ilegal mediums, I. E. The appropiation of half the Mexican territory by force, the absolute obscure affaires in Centroamerica, mostly by the United Fruit Co. The putting and drawing puppet presidents all over South America for their own economical interests, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera), made that difference.

Should I continue?

If there's corruption around here, nowadays, the U. S. A. Have been a good theacher. We've been modest pupils.

But let me say this, Jackson, as long as you seemed to look at the topic in not the Homero Simpson's way many of the mongers here look at it, that's it "Ho, ho! Let's hope everything goes wrong so I can fuck, with my dollars many Recoleta gatos, and buy a lot of Recoleta departments. Ho, ho!".

Let me point out this:

I never said there wasn't any corruption in Argentina.

There's a lot of corruption.

Like there's a lot of corruption in every other capitalist country (and yes, that's true: in non capitalists countries too) But that implies that ALL WE HERE, in this beautiful country, are corrupt? That corruption permeades every one of us like an Original Sin from long before we're born, and everyone of us, don't matter what we do, no matter the education we had, must carry that corruption-stigma along our lives until the final grave? I think that not. I think saying that is a mistake. I've lived in this country much more than any one of you, because I'm fifty years old and I was born here, and though I been sometime in Europe I lived all my life in Argentina. I lived and worked in many places of Argentina, from Misiones to Puerto Madryn. I meet argentine people everyday, for work reasons and for fun, and I may say with a very low margin of error that they're a long way from been corrupt. And for whom reading the things some of AP mongers wrote in this foro will be an injustice. For not to say an insult. And that's the reason why I took the trouble of answer the incongruities many of you have written. O. K. Yes, when there were too incongurent I didn't take the trouble.

The second point is, that some of you had suffered a bad experience with some corrupt argentines, does this allow you to insult us in general? Call all the argentines "stupid that don't know they're stupid", make delirious interpretations of the Falkland's War or the Military Government? Call us all hypocrit, mean, insincere, etc.

I think that one thing doesn't have to do with the other. If you somehow had a bad experience with a corrupt guy, try to resolve it, denounce him, in last case beat the hell out of him. But not call EVERYBODY corrupt. Because that will be a bad example of inducting reasoning. And as our friend Karl Popper once said, that's not the correct way to reach the truth.

What I tried to say here, forgive me for the lenght, is that although I've read the complains of almost everyone of you, I don't see in my everyday life, when I meet foreign people from every other part of the world, and I used to met a lot of them because I work in a TV Channel, that they complain and mourn about this country in the way you AP mongers seems to do. Maybe ALL the mourners are here, and ALL the non mourners are out and don't write in this blog, but that will be a very very strange situation.

I will repeat it for the 100th. Time: come on, this place is not so bad as you want to depict it. There are some corruption here, as in elsewhere, but we're not ALL corrupt and not so bad people. Try to look everything with new eyes.

And I'll repeat, also, my sincere invitation: I'd be happy if anyone of you wants to share a beer with me to talk about this, or every other thing you want.