Corruption in Argentina

I have many Argentine friends and can agree that most are honest and hard working people.

I think your reaction to the bribe Argento paid gives insight to the differences in our cultures. I think having to bribe a paid government employee is wrong and should be punished. You thought his bribe was too high, you may as well think the existence of the bribe is wrong as well but accept it is a way of life there.

My self and most N Americans and N. Europeans think this acceptance of corruption contributes to an atmosphere of that makes situational business ethics pervasive. Whether that's Aerolinas charging tourists a different rate than Argentines or the waiter knowingly saving his trucho bills, or worse yet purchasing trucho bills to pass on to tourists that most likely won't notice them. This acceptance of corruption is pervasive in Argentina, and more in BsAs than Provincia. And the majority of us (N Americans and N Europeans) think that this acceptance works to Argentina's detriment not advantage.

I personally do not pass judgment, I'm not joking when I say I like it as it is. I think it's one of the reasons families and friends are so much closer there than they are here, so like anything else there are pluses and minuses.

I don't know what the word dilerant means regarding the war so I can't respond.

Again saludos to your family.

Abrazo che

"It was nearly noon and I was hungry for lunch" so I did a half-ass job because obviously lunch is more important than working, saving, studying, or investing. Lunch benefits [b]me right now[/b], while all that working and saving stuff takes way too long.

This behavior is consistent with what you would expect in a highly inflationary economy. A "fuck tomorrow" strategy is pretty attractive in times of high inflation!

Phone call for Mr. Delay!

Paging Mr. Delay!

Mr. Delay?

[QUOTE=Julio]Then, as you yourself have exposed the reasoning, must be because U. S. A. Is MORE corrupt than Argentina.

Let's see: corruption involves essentialy money. The more money you have the more potentialy corrupt you are (not YOU, Jackson, God forbid! I am talking in an impersonal way. I make clear this because everyone here is so susceptible. More money, as everybody knows in this capitalist world, means more power. Some said "absolute power begets absolute corruption". The initial accumulation of capital made by the U. S. A. In the XIXth. And XXth. Century (by legal and ilegal mediums, I. E. The appropiation of half the Mexican territory by force, the absolute obscure affaires in Centroamerica, mostly by the United Fruit Co. The putting and drawing puppet presidents all over South America for their own economical interests, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera) made that difference.

Should I continue?

If there's corruption around here, nowadays, the U. S. A. Have been a good theacher. We've been modest pupils.[/QUOTE]Let me see if I understand this: The USA is responsible for the corruption in Argentina?

ROTFLMAO!

BTW, you still didn't answer my question, so I'll post it again for you consideration:

[I]"Assuming that corruption is as rampant in the USA as it is in Argentina, then what is the reason, given essentially the same natural resources and the same immigrant population over essentially the same period of time, did the USA build the world's strongest economy while Argentine lurches from one economic collapse to another?"[/i]

Thanks,

Jackson

[QUOTE=Argento]Why is it that Argentinians have a per capita income 6 times less than the USA and Australia, given that they had a 100 year start on the USA and 300 years start on Australia, with equal if not better natural resources to begin with?

Argento[/QUOTE]To start with, Argentina didn't have "a start" as early as you mentioned. The definite national "organization" started at 1853, not when the Spaniards arrived.

As strange as it may sound, the fact that "making a living" in Argentina wasn't as hard as in Northeastern US or Australia partially explains the choices made by elites and the social structure and organization, with their implicit and explicit rules. Said differently, Argentina isn't the way it is DESPITE the natural resources at hand but BECAUSE OF the natural resources at hand.

It's long and complex to explain, and I'm afraid that you wouldn't be open enough to deserve my time and effort.

Andres

[QUOTE=Daddy Rulz]At the turn of the 19th century Argentina had the highest per capita income in the entire world, it was THE developed country. [/QUOTE]Having a high per-capita income doesn't means that the country is developed. Current cases of several Persian Gulf monarchies prove that.

If Argentina has been such a heaven before 1945 as conservatives like to repeat, why did such a social process as Peronismo appear in scene?

Andres

[QUOTE=Dickhead]

Carrefour Story #1: Sign says, "15% off on X, Y, and Z if you use any debit card. " X happens to be "bebidas" so I buy a bunch of booze, go to the check out counter, hand over my VISA debit card, and get no discount. "Why? " I ask. "This is not a debit card. " "It says 'debit' right on it, right here (pointing) " "Well, our system says it's a credit card. " "How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? " "Five. " "No, four, because calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg. " [/QUOTE]I have a bank account in the US and I have a Visa debit card from this bank. The big problem (and Visa should see to this) is here it appears on the system as a credit card even offering payment in installments. So this is a problem you are always going to get when using a debit card from a US bank. The cashier couldn't give a shit about what the card has printed on it. The system is telling her that it's a credit card and that is what it's going to say when she closes her till when her shift is over.

And as you very correctly say calling a tail a leg is not going to make it into a five legged dog and in this case you calling your card debit isn't going to make it a debit card if Visa insist on telling the cashier it's a credit card especially if the 15% discount she "wrongly" gave you is going to come from her pocket.

[QUOTE=Andres]To start with, Argentina didn't have "a start" as early as you mentioned. The definite national "organization" started at 1853, not when the Spaniards arrived.

As strange as it may sound, the fact that "making a living" in Argentina wasn't as hard as in Northeastern US or Australia partially explains the choices made by elites and the social structure and organization, with their implicit and explicit rules. Said differently, Argentina isn't the way it is DESPITE the natural resources at hand but BECAUSE OF the natural resources at hand.

It's long and complex to explain, and I'm afraid that you wouldn't be open enough to deserve my time and effort.

Andres[/QUOTE]Due to the abundance of natural resources they had no need to develop industrially because life wasn't hard enough to require a change. They had plenty of food, plenty of wine, lots of immigrants to do the nasty work and I'm sure even then tons of good pussy. Am I tracking you?

As far as why Peronism was able to rise and flourish I think because until then everybody ignored the peasants. Then he started giving them stuff, free stuff, until then their really wasn't a middle class. Then Eva founded the free University and education was more readily available to poor people, middle class started to developed because poor people started getting skill sets and had something the market would pay for. Unfortunately the nepotisim, corruption, and something for nothing programs came before the education. And really isn't that the basis for all corruption, wanting to make a living without working?

I'm probably wrong, but that's my impression.

Andres I am always open to listening to what you have to say. You're a voice of experience and reason here. We have never met but I know your CV from people who's opinions I trust.

If you don't feel like enlightening the entire forum drop me a pm and I'll give you my email. I'll read any lecture regarding Argentine history from 1900-the present that you would care to prepare. I've read some but most of the English stuff is from a Norte perspective and my Castellano isn't good enough to clearly understand the books I can buy down there.

Not all members of this forum have knee jerk reactions to the differences in Argentine business practices and political misfeasance from those of the USA or Western Europe. Many of us love many aspects of argentine life and culture and would appreciate your efforts to help us understand this wonderful, but imperfect place we chose to live or frequently visit.

Jackson, Julio is talking about a different type of moral corruption: imperialism
and colonialization of developing nations. There is a fascinating book out: The Confessions of an Economic Hit Man. A former investment banker describes how multinationals suck the economic blood out of third world nations, often with the help of a corrupt local elite. Of course in many nations that corrupt local elite are just lined-up with their hands out.

Andres, please take the time to share your insights. Your postings are one of my favorite part of this forum. Thanks Jackson!

[QUOTE=Andres]To start with, Argentina didn't have "a start" as early as you mentioned. The definite national "organization" started at 1853, not when the Spaniards arrived.

It's long and complex to explain, and I'm afraid that you wouldn't be open enough to deserve my time and effort.

Andres[/QUOTE]Well that's sort of pooped on the Argentine position of their claim to soveignty over the Falklands island. Very difficult to lay such a claim if you are not yet started as a nation.

Argento

[QUOTE=Miami Bob]Jackson, Julio is talking about a different type of moral corruption: imperialism.

And colonialization of developing nations. There is a fascinating book out: The Confessions of an Economic Hit Man. A former investment banker describes how multinationals suck the economic blood out of third world nations, often with the help of a corrupt local elite. Of course in many nations that corrupt local elite are just lined-up with their hands out. [/QUOTE]Ha! I don't know Argentina very well, but I know the price of cement and phone service in Mexico is close to the highest in the world and the oil industry there is in dismal shape, because the multinationals have been kept out. I could give you other examples from other developing nations. This plays right into the hands of the local elite. They can keep their prices high when they don't have any competition. And it's the consumers and the poor that suffer. It plays into the hands of the Mexican politicians too. They can preserve the oil wealth for the pueblo and keep the evil multinationals out of the cement industry. But this means the poor have to pay out the gazoo to build a house and the country doesn't get nearly the benefits it should out of its natural resources.

Julio claims capitalism is the problem in Argentina -- it's not. The problem is some kind of perverted socialism, where people think they're owed a free lunch. If they don't get their way, they hit the streets, banging their pots and pans, put up roadblocks, etc. And their politicians appear, on the surface at least, to cater to them. They put in price controls, that will bankrupt companies and cause the infrastructure to go to crap. Everybody gets a raise. The government prints more money. Is this really helping the poor? I don't think so. I don't know the Argentine system so well, but you'd think the politicians put on a show of being populists, while they're actually making the corrupt local elite wealthier at the expense of the poor. How else do you explain big gap between rich and poor, a lot bigger than the US? I don't know how this works -- how the politicians in Argentina look like they're the peoples champion while the rich get richer, but suspect it's something like what I described above, about Mexico. Or maybe it's inflation -- I've read that the rich have ways of managing their money to grow it faster than prices while the poor end up getting stuck with worthless pesos or reais

Cemex controls or has a great influence on the market prices in Mexico. Cemex has been buying local cement companies for years. Rinker, in southeast Florida, is owned by Cemex.

Economic hit men may come from many places. Julio thinks only the USA has caused harm to Argentina. Wait to see the surprises that will be coming from China. China is buying land, glaziers, mineral rights. Some of the governors are lined-up with their hands stuck out.

Andres, I try to understand why Chile and Brazil are moving towards a more of "modern"economy[eeuu / western european type model] and Argentinia is floating somewhere off to the side. What is the historical or cultural basis for this?

It seems as if Argentina is caught in some sort of economic quick sand. I truly do not understand.

[QUOTE=Daddy Rulz]Due to the abundance of natural resources they had no need to develop industrially because life wasn't hard enough to require a change. They had plenty of food, plenty of wine, lots of immigrants to do the nasty work and I'm sure even then tons of good pussy. Am I tracking you?[/QUOTE]No. What I mean is that, due to the social structure and the privileged place inside the British economic empire (Argentina provided raw materials and the Brits provided manufactured goods) it wasn't convenient to elites to develop industrially. There were never plenty of food for peasants and blue collars.

I like to say that Argentina is the US version where the Confederation won the Civil War. And if you analyze times of both civil wars, it's not a coincidence at all.

[QUOTE=Daddy Rulz]As far as why Peronism was able to rise and flourish I think because until then everybody ignored the peasants. Then he started giving them stuff, free stuff, until then their really wasn't a middle class. Then Eva founded the free University and education was more readily available to poor people, middle class started to developed because poor people started getting skill sets and had something the market would pay for. Unfortunately the nepotisim, corruption, and something for nothing programs came before the education. And really isn't that the basis for all corruption, wanting to make a living without working?

I'm probably wrong, but that's my impression. [/QUOTE]The political involvement of peasants is somewhat correct. However, public university was always free. During the first 2 Perón terms, there hardly were students from poor families at the UBA, which was a bunker of antiperonist movements. Higher education for people from humble origins were available at what was called Universidad Obrera, today UTN, so Perón didn't granted practical access to university to low-class people.

[QUOTE=Daddy Rulz]Andres I am always open to listening to what you have to say. You're a voice of experience and reason here. We have never met but I know your CV from people who's opinions I trust.

If you don't feel like enlightening the entire forum drop me a pm and I'll give you my email. I'll read any lecture regarding Argentine history from 1900-the present that you would care to prepare. I've read some but most of the English stuff is from a Norte perspective and my Castellano isn't good enough to clearly understand the books I can buy down there.[/QUOTE]Thanks for your compliments.

Robert Potash's books are a good start.

Andres

[QUOTE=Argento]Well that's sort of pooped on the Argentine position of their claim to soveignty over the Falklands island. Very difficult to lay such a claim if you are not yet started as a nation.

Argento[/QUOTE]Not quite. The British Empire granted recognition of the Argentine independence on 1816, which included the islands held by then by Argentina. The British invasion of Malvinas took place on 1833. In fact, the Argentine government often bring descents from pre-1833 settlers to the UN Decolonization Committee to support its claim.

In any case, declaring independence doesn't automatically means that the country is properly organized in terms of laws and institutions.

Andres

[QUOTE=Miami Bob]Not all members of this forum have knee jerk reactions to the differences in Argentine business practices and political misfeasance from those of the USA or Western Europe. Many of us love many aspects of argentine life and culture and would appreciate your efforts to help us understand this wonderful, but imperfect place we chose to live or frequently visit.

Jackson, Julio is talking about a different type of moral corruption: imperialism.

And colonialization of developing nations. There is a fascinating book out: The Confessions of an Economic Hit Man. A former investment banker describes how multinationals suck the economic blood out of third world nations, often with the help of a corrupt local elite. Of course in many nations that corrupt local elite are just lined-up with their hands out.

Andres, please take the time to share your insights. Your postings are one of my favorite part of this forum. Thanks Jackson![/QUOTE]Thanks for your words.

The best way to understand why things happen the way they do is to read a lot. Many scholars contributed by shedding some light over many different aspects of Argentine history, social structure and composition, social mechanisms, international events and processes, ideologies, geography, etc. Hard to summarize them in 10, 20 or even 50 lines.

Andres