American Politics during the Obama Presidency

Amen brutha Alamo!

BTW - here's very interesting 20/20 video on YouTube, with John Stossel:

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHCJ-UhZFT4[/url]

This issue has indeed become a religion. Al Gore with his movie that won him an Oscar and a Nobel price has kids and their parents scared shitless. Scientists who say anything against the "closed debate" are said to be obstructing solutions and are on the take by some "big-business" conspiracy. They receive death threats from "believers."

Things like this that get perpetuated on huge levels, are serious problems. There are not enough people who can investigate beyond what the fear mongers have to say and then process that data critically. Fear mongers use that human weakness to put the damndest chains around our ankles. Drugs wars and AIDS are two other fallacies that fear mongers use to suck so much time and energy out of the world.

This whole global warming thing has been an annoyance up until now, but with the world in the condition it's in economically, the last thing we need to do is saddle ourselves with a bunch of regulations to bring down productivity and worsen the problem because we can't see the forest for the tress.

I am glad I can turn here for all the answers!

I guess this includes the war on terror and the rising tide of illegal immigrants too huh? Or I guess those are real because you believe in em aye?

No need to answer, the question was rhetorical, as I assume the answer would be as well.

Regards,

BM

Btw. Check your pm box

[QUOTE=El Queso] Drugs wars and AIDS are two other fallacies that fear mongers use to suck so much time and energy out of the world.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=BadMan]I guess this includes the war on terror and the rising tide of illegal immigrants too huh? Or I guess those are real because you believe in em aye?

No need to answer, the question was rhetorical, as I assume the answer would be as well.

Regards,

BM.

Btw. Check your pm box[/QUOTE]You might be surprised how I feel about those two issues if you think the question is rhetorical, dude.

I actually don't like the war on terror because it has eroded freedoms significantly - it has given the fear mongers a slippery slope toward authoritarianism - look at the Patriot Act (which I hope dies little by little instead of being renewed as parts expire) Big Brother coming around, with the permission of the people who have given up their freedoms because they were scared. Not that terrorists aren't a true threat - they are. But we don't have to give up our rights a little at a time to combat it. I'd rather see every citizen armed in case they came across some jackass terrorists instead of acting like sheep and allowing the government to keep expanding their power.:)

Illegal immigration? I'm from Texas and I've worked with Mexicans just about all my life. For the most part, illegal Mexicans (who I worked with in my younger days as a ditch digger, then a jobsite superintendent) are hard working fuckers and send a ton of money back home to their poor families. They often live in small, cramped, cheap places with a lot of people, to save money. They do the jobs most Americans wouldn't want to get their hands dirty with. They are a lot like the Paraguayans here in Argentina, whom I also admire.

I wish they were legal. I wish the US government would wake up and institute a huge guest worker program, and allow them to take less than minimum wage as guest workers - if they want to work for less, that's their business. The money they get paid is obviously good enough as an illegal or they wouldn't be there to begin with (the "market", in other words)

Many (most? Are actually paying taxes - they have fake SS cards, often a number that is a real number from a citizen, because businesses have to have a way to account for their money, at least on big scales, like in construction. We always had issues with the IRS related to one of our laborers having a SSN that was confused with some other tax payer, often in some other part of the country. The guys would just disappear, and go work on another crew somewhere with another SSN.

Get rid of all that stupid crap and institute a guest worker program! And it's not "taking advantage" of Mexicans per se (in a bad way, in other words) - it's a win-win situation. They need the work and we need cheap labor. People need to get past this "guilt" thing about paying workers less money. Few realize that the illegals come to the States because, even with lower money than everyone else is geting paid IN THE US, it's a fuckpot-full better than what they can make in their own country.

But BadMan, those two items are social issues, which are not clear-cut issues, depending on your social belief system.

Global warming is a different animal completely. That is science (or should be) And what's happening is that non-scientists like Gore are taking bad information and telling the country and the world that the data they see means something that it really doesn't.

There was a really, really important piece in that 20/20 piece I linked to that Mr. Gore didn't show his audiences, but Mr Stossel brought up. He shows a graph with two lines - one is the temperature of the Earth over 600,000 years, and the other is the level of CO2 over that same time period. Over that time, there are spikes in temperatures, and along with that, amazingly enough, are spikes in the CO2 level. The CO2 line is at the top of the chart, separated from the temperature levels which are at the bottom of the chart, separated from one another.

Gore points to that in his movie and says (paraphrased) "see, it's obvious that spikes in CO2 levels are affecting temperatures on Earth."

Mr Stossel, however, "magically" moves the CO2 graph over the top of that of the temperature graph (superimposed) where you can actually see the relationship visually - over 600,000 years, a period of a couple of decades to a couple of hundred years, it's hard to tell when the graphs are separated what the true relationship is. And guess the fuck what? It turns out that the CO2 levels FOLLOWED a temperature rise when they are superimposed, they didn't CREATE the temperature rise (which would require that the levels PRECEED the temperature rises) And that makes good scientific sense because CO2 will be released from the ocean, for example, as the world warms.

And Al Gore scares kids with the ocean levels rising FEET (as much 20 feet he says) but he also doesn't say that we are talking inches over decades and that 20 feet would be if global warming continued at the current rate for a couple of HUNDRED years.

The same with the temperature rise. Everyone agrees that the temperature is rising, that IS a scientific fact which just about every scientist who studies this WILL agree to. The average temperature worldwide has risen.6 degrees fahrenheit over 100 YEARS! It's not an emergency. We're not all about to die in 20 years if "something doesn't happen." IN FACT, no one really knows what a temeprature rise means, but even if it's a problem, it's not humans who are causing the rise in temerature.

The fact that Mr Gore owns a company that will trade CO2 credits, one of the idiotic ways people have come up with to reduce carbon emissions (which will never actually do anything) doesn't at all mean that he has some other motive for making people think that he's the savior of the planet from those evil corporations who are trying to kill us all!

[QUOTE=El Queso]Illegal immigration? I'm from Texas and I've worked with Mexicans just about all my life. For the most part, illegal Mexicans (who I worked with in my younger days as a ditch digger, then a jobsite superintendent) are hard working fuckers and send a ton of money back home to their poor families. They often live in small, cramped, cheap places with a lot of people, to save money. They do the jobs most Americans wouldn't want to get their hands dirty with. They are a lot like the Paraguayans here in Argentina, whom I also admire.[/QUOTE]How cool! I used to work in Tyler, Texas as a ditch digger for a construction company just after high school. We were putting up different hotels back then, circa 1984. I can attest to your observations: The hardest working guys on the construction site were the illegal Mexican guys. They would bring these guys in as brick layers and rock cutters for the vanity landscaping stones. Watching those guys work was amazing. They were the only guys more disliked on the construction site than my pals and I (Yanks who went to Texas looking for work) They weren't disliked for the reason most would think, I. E. Because they were Mexicans or "illegals." They were disliked for the same reason we were: They were taking the locals' jobs.

What part of Texas did you work in, and about when? We may have run across each other. I was with "C" Construction Company back then. I still remember my old boss: Milton Black. Great guy. It was minimum wage work but 80-100 hours a week. Even at minimum wage, we still did OK. There was no time to spend it. Plus, Tyler was in a dry county. I still have great memories of East Texas from back then. Heck, since it was in a dry county, I still have [I]memories[/i] from back then.

Though you do not need my kudos Stan and El Queso concerning immigrant workers, could not agree more. Hardest of workers and deserve a better deal. They get ripped off from both sides of the fence. In another life, did a little county time and ended up working in the fields with many of these so called illegals picking asparagus: work / release. Received quite an education and learned a real respect for these people. What they have to endure was an eye opener. When I look back, it was a fun time, if you have to do some time. There was a lot of asparagus picking and a lot of screwing going on in them thar fields. I needed to be reminded of those experiences. Life is crazy.

Thanks

[QUOTE=Stan Da Man]I can attest to your observations: The hardest working guys on the construction site were the illegal Mexican guys.[/QUOTE]Hi Guys,

I was in the home building business in Florida for more than 20 years, and the industry there certainly had it's share of hard-working Mexican and Central American workers.

However, I didn't observe any difference in the working habits between the legal Mexican and Central American workers and the illegal Mexican and Central American workers, so I don't understand your point.

Are you suggesting that those who are here illegally work harder than those who are here legally? Is your admiration based on their legal status?

Thanks,

Jackson.

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For the record, I am [u]NOT[/u] a Rebublican, and I am [u]NOT[/u] a conservative.

- I am [u]against[/u] the death penalty.
- I am [u]against[/u] [u]any[/u] government support of religious organizations.
- I am [u]for[/u] the legalization of recreational drugs.
- I am [u]for[/u] the legalization of commercial sex.
- I am [u]for[/u] a woman's right to choose.
- I am [u]for[/u] comprehensive sex education.
- [size=+1][b]I am [u]for[/u] a foreign guest worker program.[/b][/size]
- I am [u]for[/u] a universal flat tax on [u]EVERYONE'S[/u] income.
- I am [u]for[/u] health [u]INSURANCE[/u] reform.
- I am [u]for[/u] health [u]JUSTICE[/u] reform.

I am a member of the Libertian Party, registered as an Independent.

[QUOTE=Stan Da Man]What part of Texas did you work in, and about when? We may have run across each other.[/QUOTE]It was in Houston, various years.

I started out in highschool, actually, digging ditches over summers with a buddy of mine whose father owned the construction company - Simonsen Construction. I worked in South Houston preparing the forms and ground and such for concrete pours for underground poured-in-place drainage systems. This would have been 1978 & 1979 during the summers. I worked the job to raise money for my first car and then have enough money for insurance and gas. I really enjoyed that job - I had a couple of years of Spanish in school and at lunch time my buddy and I would sit with the Mexicans and BS about life, pussy, you name it.

After that, in the mid-eighties I went to work for a precast concrete company (we erected parking garages and other commercial buildings with our precast product) I started out as a general go-fer, then a truck driver, then a finisher on the job site. At the plant and on the site about 1/2 to 2/3 of the workers were illegals. Later, I became a draftsman and designed a lot of the buildings we were putting up, then became a superintendent and managed the shipping, erection, and finishing crews. That lasted until about '92 when I changed careers again.

[QUOTE=Jackson]However, I didn't observe any difference in the working habits between the legal Mexican and Central American workers and the illegal Mexican and Central American workers, so I don't understand your point.

Are you suggesting that those who are here illegally work harder than those who are here legally? Is your admiration based on their legal status?[/QUOTE]Actually, my point was that our immigration policies are too strict and we have no ability to allow a large number of cheap laborers into the country legally. I was saying that the illegal immigrants now actually do provide a service, many (if not most) of them are being taxed as it is (as opposed to many erroneous comments by many fear mongers to the opposite) and they are hard working to boot.

If we had a guest worker program of some sort, we would be able to let these people cross the border legally, they would be documented, and we could ensure that they would be easier to track down if we needed to.

Of course, I do believe that they have no right to be in our country illegally - but human nature tells us that they will find a way to do it with or without the government's consent (like drugs) so why not acknowlege this and do something real about it rather than build walls around our country?

As far as people like that taking local jobs - very few of the American Citizens I know are willing to do the kind of labor, for the kind of pay, that illegal AND legal immigrants do. If this labor source did not exist, prces on various items would likely go up as we had to pay the workers more.

I don't know what the answer is exactly, I just feel sympathy for people who want to work and are seeking a market where they can do so. Again, it's a win-win situation so let's figure out how to do it legally and let everyone win above-board.

[QUOTE=Jackson]Are you suggesting that those who are here illegally work harder than those who are here legally? Is your admiration based on their legal status?

Thanks,

Jackson.[/QUOTE]Yep, that would be accurate from my observations. Now, truth be told, I didn't go around checking these guys' green card status, so I'm not positive they were all illegal. It's my assumption based on talking to a few of them, and from the fact that none of them spoke a whit of English. They all hung together.

But, yes, the illegals seemed to work much harder than the legals. I'm not comparing them to just Mexicans, though, or even Spanish speaking folks. My non-scientific observation was based on this: When I was down there working, it was during a construction boom. The locals knew they could go just about anywhere and get work, so they tended to take it for granted. They didn't seem to care much about whether their employer thought they were doing a good job or not. The illegals, on the other hand, either didn't know that jobs were easy to come by or, for them, jobs weren't easy to come by. Thus, they busted their balls to make sure no one could question their work ethic. There was a palpable difference. The same might have been true of illegal Irish or Estonian workers, but they didn't happen to work at the construction sites I worked at.

Again, I don't pretend that this is a scientific survey. It's just what I saw.

STEVE WYNN: 'Gov't never increased standard of living of one single human being in civilization's history'.

Do I ever miss Ricardo's ''I'm from the government, I'm here to help' bullshit

I read this article about the Nobel jury defending their position on Obama's prize:

[url]http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5irLyPrFK_rtRwMOsfjRBFjGDVZCgD9BAFHMO0[/url]

A quote from Jagland, the committee chairman:

"Alfred Nobel wrote that the prize should go to the person who has contributed most to the development of peace in the previous year. Who has done more for that than Barack Obama?"

And yet, earlier in the article:

"To those who say a Nobel is too much too soon in Obama's young presidency, "We simply disagree. He got the prize for what he has done," committee chairman Thorbjorn Jagland told The Associated Press by telephone from Strasbourg, France, where he was attending meetings of the Council of Europe.

Jagland singled out Obama's efforts to heal the divide between the West and the Muslim world and scale down a Bush-era proposal for an anti-missile shield in Europe.

"All these things have contributed to — I wouldn't say a safer world — but a world with less tension," he said."

So even though Alfred Nobel says it should be awarded for deeds done in the PREVIOUS year, Obama gets it awarded for things he did AFTER he was nominated, a week or two into his presidency, and before the results of his first attempts at changing things later in his presidency have even produced results - except for getting him awarded the Nobel prize.

They mention in the article that Obama seemed unhappy at receiving the award, saying that they knew this might make his job harder.

I say that if Obama knew what he was doing, he would have rejected the award.

[QUOTE=Rock Harders]Argentina is blessed with a wonderful public healthcare system that is free to all regardless of immigration status. When you go for your analysis, they will ask you to bring your own used soda bottle with cap to use as a container for your urine sample. There are many, many cats walking around uncontrolled throughout the public hospitals. You will likely wait in line for an extended period of time along with all the other Bolivians, Peruvians, Paraguayans, and Argentine villa dwellers. Even better, you will be treated by a doctor who earns about $500 USD per month or less in a facility that has not been updated since the 1950's.

Suerte,

Rock Harders[/QUOTE]And you support the idea of government-run public health care for the USA?

[QUOTE=El Queso]Jagland singled out Obama's efforts to heal the divide between the West and the Muslim world and scale down a Bush-era proposal for an anti-missile shield in Europe.

"All these things have contributed to — I wouldn't say a safer world — but a world with less tension," he said."[/QUOTE]So he is being compensated with this gift for relieving tension. However, it turns out that he didn't even provide the services for which he was compensated. He's like a bait and switch puta.