American Politics during the Obama Presidency

[QUOTE=Sinistra]•*I don't listen to Limbaugh, Beck, or others. But, it seems the lefties are at least as bad!

No, no they aren't. They aren't as loud, they aren't as bigoted, they aren't as holier than thou and they don't have a "this is MY party, if you don't like it LEAVE attitude.[/QUOTE]Actually, having been married to a far-left wingnut for 20 years, and being privy to many of the idiocies that she and her political activists were involved in, I have to completely disagree with your statement on this one, Sinistra. The far left is every bit as nuts (bigotted in their way, and CERTAINLY holier than thou!) and extreme and intolerant as the far right.

It's the far right who is killing the Republican party, I think. As it is the far left who is posing problems related to compromise even within their own ranks related to the healthcare bill and producing a certain climate of intolerance of their own.

My ex-wife HATED EVERYONE that was associated with the Republican party, particularly George Bush (I must include myself in there as well) Do prayer meetings and seances, held at multiple locations around the country at the same time, seeking the death of George Bush, for example, count as extreme? Castigating members of their own party who would even dream of trying to compromise with those "greedy bastards who only want to grab everything not nailed down for themselves"? Many examples.

Please.

BTW, I agree with about everything else you said in response to Sid.

Seems to me the problem we have in the US is that a two-party system tries to put too many different paradigms into one bag. There are some supposed core beliefs that each party has, but it's all the extraneous beliefs that get in the way of compromise and therefore cause a lot of strife within each party. It causes civil war amongst their own members, and extends further in strife between the two parties themselves.

If we had multiple parties, things would be a little less combative I think. Maybe. Certainly, I would have more of a hope, also as a Libertarian, of finding people who believe the same way as I do without having to tie myself to a party who is trying to tell a woman what she can do with her body, tell me I can't smoke pot, and make me feel like a second class citizen because I'm not a Christian, all because I want as small a government as possible and don't think that I should support people who don't have a desire to work their asses off like way I do to advance myself.

[QUOTE=El Queso]The far left is every bit as nuts (bigotted in their way, and CERTAINLY holier than thou! And extreme and intolerant as the far right.[/QUOTE]You are absolutely correct, but you're also wrong. Believe me, I've wanted choke the sh#t out of my share of in-your-face lefties. They too are annoying and self-righteous and condescending. But here are a few of points you should consider.

1. At least they aren't stupid. They are extremely annoying and highly drownable, but they usually have reasonably well-formed opinions, and their a**holeness derives from a genuine desire to make the world a better place. I mean come on, how can you argue with everyone having access to health care being a bad idea in theory? I certainly don't want to pay for it, and I think there are definitely downsides. But in a perfect world, why should it be that who lives and who dies is decided by how much money they make? It's one thing to say that it's okay that rich people get to ride around in yachts and have country club memberships, it's another to say poor people should be subjected to a life of intolerable pain, suffering and early death just because they weren't smart or lucky enough to make a lot of money.

2. They aren't nearly as racist and bigoted. For every one left-winger marching for gay rights, there are three right-wing nutbags who vomit religious intolerance or toss around the N word when not in polite company. There are literally thousands of videos on Youtube recording conversations with people at these Teabag events and the things they say are right out of the KKK handbook. This is not to say that they are all bigots, but there's a huge percentage of Limbaugh's and Beck's audience that are.

3. They don't maintain such a prominent position in the political discourse. Certainly the loonies on the left are there and to some extent they drive the political agenda, but Democrats these days are far more centrist and it's obvious. The Republican party is held hostage to Limbaugh and Beck. Politicians can't say anything bad about them without a huge backlash. Republicans who go against them are heckled in cruel ways and thrown to the dogs. You ask a member of Congress from a strong Republican district a simple question "Do you believe that Obama was born in the United States" and they REFUSE to answer. It's just ridiculous.

I believe in smaller government, less taxation and rugged individualism. Who the HELL do I support?

Just saw Fox News for the first time in months. Highly entertaining.

However, their adulation for a strong military and using that military to wreck havoc in far away places was hard to take. A hot girl group wearing miniskirts singing about the honor of dying for causes that make no sense was too much.

As far as I can tell, we would be much better off had we never gone to Vietnam, Cambodia, Iraq, Afghanistan etc. Furthermore, had we not gone we would have avoided the senseless killing and maiming of millions of soldiers and civilians.

A strong military is a good idea but carelessly using that military is not a good idea.

P.S. a guest appearance by Ollie North, who seemed to be saying that we needed to be involved in more wars, didn´t help matters.

Just post the link and not your copy and paste spam bullshit, or better yet form an opinion on your own and type it out.

I will wade back in here to take issue on a couple of points (with all due respect of course):

[QUOTE=Sinistra]I don't listen to Limbaugh, Beck, or others. But, it seems the lefties are at least as bad!

No, no they aren't. They aren't as loud, they aren't as bigoted, they aren't as holier than thou and they don't have a "this is MY party, if you don't like it LEAVE attitude. They don't practice slash and burn politics. Birthers. BIRTHERS for God's sake. Of those less than 20% of Americans who are Republicans that remain, most of them believe that Obama is from Kenya, even though there's not a shred of real evidence backing it up. Why? Because they want to believe it. You should hear what these bigots say. Don't even go there with the moral equivalence argument. "The other side is just as bad" is a crap argument used by those with nothing better in their arsenal. Not even close to being as bad, Sid. Not even close.[/QUOTE]I am a conservative. Because of that, I have been called a bigot, homophobe, sexist and much more. I do not project my religious beliefs on others nor do I know many conservatives who do. I have never understood how standing for smaller government and greater personal responsibility and liberty could lead someone to make such assumptions about me. I have discovered that these misconceptions are based on deep-seeded bigotry imbued through the core of most liberals.

You speak of what you do not know. While I do not know Rush personally (I did met him once back in '92) I have probably listened to his show a little more than you. He is neither a racist nor a bigot. He is not holier than thou, although I can see how one might get that impression. In fact, he is impressively not so as a recovering addict (often times people in recovery become very preachy about it and other issues) He does not pretend to be a Big Tent" republican, never has, never will. He is a conservative (think Goldwater and Reagan) with a focus on smaller government, less government interference in the private sector and more personal freedom and responsibility and that the constitution is the law of the land. He is pro-life.

He is opinionated and believes strongly that he is right. He supports candidates that agree with him. What is wrong that, I do the same thing on a smaller scale each time I enter the voting booth.

Rush is not a birther, nor am I. However, I can understand why birthers have the questions that they do. First, they suspect BHO is what he has always been and that he has been influenced by the company that he has kept throughout his life (Leftists, Marxists, Communists, Maoists, Rev. Wright, Bill Ayers, etc) and therefore cannot be trusted on any issue. Birthers accurately claim that BHO has never released a copy of his birth certificate while the BHO campaign and White House counter that the certificate of live birth (obtained four days after his birth) is sufficient. While, I do not know the merits of either side, I do feel that the WH continues to feed this controversy by not providing the long-form birth certificate.

The left has always been much louder during my lifetime, just not through the medium of talk radio. The conservative protests that have popped up this year are the first of my memory.

[quote=]But he's a reasonable / rational person, unlike the idiots running the Republican party who pushed reasonable people with views like mine out. Remember, my economics are right of center, but I find myself unable to have a conversation with people on the far right who dominate the Republican party. At least I can have a discussion with Democrats.[/QUOTE]Who pushed you out? McCain? That right-wing bastard! The republican party has been dominated by Washington insiders peddling Democrat-Lite candidates. The conservatives that I know embrace folks who are for small government and greater personal responsibility and freedom, regardless of standing on social issues. Most of my close friends are left-leaning or outright liberals. I love them and respect them. However, I am not going to change my mind and believe in big government or that the Constitution should be subordinated to the wishes of any president (R or D)

[quote=]Still, the Republicans are a mess and it's getting worse for them, not better. They are way worse off than the Democrats were during Reagan's time.[/QUOTE]Excellent, you stated an opinion in the form of an opinion. This is the fun part. It is what debate is all about. I suspect that you are wrong. However, time will tell which of us is correct.

Suerte

[QUOTE=Sinistra]The Republican party is held hostage to Limbaugh and Beck. Politicians can't say anything bad about them without a huge backlash. Republicans who go against them are heckled in cruel ways and thrown to the dogs.[/QUOTE]Sinistra,

With all due respect, that is as inaccurate as claiming that Al Franken controls the Democrats.

Besides, if the Liberals / Democrat's ideas are as overwhelmingly righteous as they believe, then it shouldn't make any difference what a couple of talking heads have to say, right?

I mean, don't you believe that the American people have the intelligence to distinguish between good and bad ideas?

[QUOTE=Sinistra]You ask a member of Congress from a strong Republican district a simple question "Do you believe that Obama was born in the United States" and they REFUSE to answer. It's just ridiculous.

I believe in smaller government, less taxation and rugged individualism. Who the HELL do I support?[/QUOTE]Of course, if you ask Obama a simple question "[i]Will you show me a copy of your Certificate of Live Birth[/i]", he will REFUSE to answer. Now [u]that's[/u] ridiculous.

[QUOTE=Sinistra]. But they usually have reasonably well-formed opinions, and their a**holeness derives from a genuine desire to make the world a better place.[/QUOTE]The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

If the USA is bankrupted by "healthcare reform" (which is a total misnomer) then it's OK because it was done with good intentions in mind.

If another 10 million US jobs are lost due to the added expense of Cap and Trade legislation (which is based entirely on JUNK SCIENCE) and the US sinks into the Great Depression Part Deux, it's OK because it was done with good intentions in mind.

I respectfully disagree. Good intentions on issues such as these cannot replace being right (as in correct, not conservative)

[quote=]I mean come on, how can you argue with everyone having access to health care being a bad idea in theory? I certainly don't want to pay for it, and I think there are definitely downsides. But in a perfect world, why should it be that who lives and who dies is decided by how much money they make? It's one thing to say that it's okay that rich people get to ride around in yachts and have country club memberships, it's another to say poor people should be subjected to a life of intolerable pain, suffering and early death just because they weren't smart or lucky enough to make a lot of money.[/QUOTE]Ah hah! You have put your finger on it. That is exactly the tangled web that is being sewn and has been sewn for so many years on this issue. It is a false argument that is meant to make you feel that way and support the left and feel disgust for the right (who by the way want to make old people eat dog food and kill all the gays)

If this healthcare debate was about insuring the uninsured, wouldn't that be the focus of the plan? Why then is the government trying to take over 1/6th of the US economy? The Pelosi bill is estimated at $2T in cost. It would be cheaper to just take the government checkbook down to the Aetna (or pick another carrier) office and buy coverage for all the uninsured Americans who either cannot afford or cannot get healthcare? From my perspective, alarm bells are ringing when the need 1,900 pages (before amendments) $2T and lots of shenanigans to get this "reform" through.

Oh yea, might I also point out that we don't have $2T.

[quote=]They aren't nearly as racist and bigoted. For every one left-winger marching for gay rights, there are three right-wing nutbags who vomit religious intolerance or toss around the N word when not in polite company.[/QUOTE]You are making this up. Please feel free to provide some data.

[quote=] There are literally thousands of videos on Youtube recording conversations with people at these Teabag events and the things they say are right out of the KKK handbook. This is not to say that they are all bigots, but there's a huge percentage of Limbaugh's and Beck's audience that are.[/QUOTE]Thousands of racists proclamations at Tea Parties? Oh my!

With millions of attendees, I do not doubt that there were some bad apples amongst them (the same is true of any group that large regardless of political affiliation) However, if this were true, they would be on the evening news every night until every last one was played ad nauseam.

[quote=]They don't maintain such a prominent position in the political discourse.[/QUOTE]What? Ever heard of ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, NPR, MSNBC (oh yea, I never heard of that one either) etc? I think the left has had a pretty prominent position in the dialogue.

[quote=]The Republican party is held hostage to Limbaugh and Beck. Politicians can't say anything bad about them without a huge backlash. Republicans who go against them are heckled in cruel ways and thrown to the dogs.[/QUOTE]Of course this is true. Both Limbaugh and Beck were such strong reporters of that right-winger McCain. Oops, they both despise him (as a politician) Then how on earth did McCain get the nomination?

[quote=]I believe in smaller government, less taxation and rugged individualism. Who the HELL do I support?[/QUOTE]Vote for Pedro

Jackson,

I think it has been well established since the Constitution was signed in 1789 that the American people in fact DO NOT have the intelligence to distinguish between good and bad ideas. That is why the Electoral College was added to the document by Thomas Jefferson and why Senators were originally not directly elected by popular vote. The "american people" (US citizens) are in fact some of the least informed, least inquisitive, and most ignorant people of any modern industrialized country. Yes there is of course the 1% of the population who know what is going on, control everything and essentially manipulate the "american people" for their own economic benefit. But the true representation of the "american people" is the NASCAR-loving, Bud Light drinking nitwit who cares about / thinks about little more than his job at Wal-Mart and how much horsepower his truck has. These people DO NOT have the intelligence to distinguish between good and bad ideas. These are the George W. Bush voters.

Suerte,

Rock Harders

[QUOTE=Sinistra] I believe in smaller government, less taxation and rugged individualism. Who the HELL do I support?[/QUOTE]How about Sarah Palin?

[QUOTE=Rock Harders]Jthe true representation of the "american people" is the NASCAR-loving, Bud Light drinking nitwit who cares about / thinks about little more than his job at Wal-Mart and how much horsepower his truck has. These people DO NOT have the intelligence to distinguish between good and bad ideas.[/QUOTE]Thank you for making my point (from my penultimate post):

"I have never understood how standing for smaller government and greater personal responsibility and liberty could lead someone to make such assumptions about me. I have discovered that these misconceptions are based on deep-seeded bigotry imbued through the core of most liberals."

[QUOTE=Rock Harders]Jackson-

I think it has been well established since the Constitution was signed in 1789 that the American people in fact DO NOT have the intelligence to distinguish between good and bad ideas. That is why the Electoral College was added to the document by Thomas Jefferson and why Senators were originally not directly elected by popular vote. The "american people" (US citizens) are in fact some of the least informed, least inquisitive, and most ignorant people of any modern industrialized country. Yes there is of course the 1% of the population who know what is going on, control everything and essentially manipulate the "american people" for their own economic benefit. But the true representation of the "american people" is the NASCAR-loving, Bud Light drinking nitwit who cares about / thinks about little more than his job at Wal-Mart and how much horsepower his truck has. These people DO NOT have the intelligence to distinguish between good and bad ideas. These are the George W. Bush voters.

Suerte,

Rock Harders[/QUOTE]*Sigh* This is confirmation that everything the right says about the "liberal elite" is true. Here's an even better summary. [url]http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703932904574511250528884932.html[/url]

I'll save you the trouble: It can't be accurate because it comes from the Wall Street Journal's editorial page.

Still, it's a very apt summary of how most people believe the left looks at citizens. And, unfortunately, it is true. The poor sheep. Thank goodness we have well-meaning politicians to take care of us.