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[QUOTE=WorldTravel69;426156]Jackson, You Do Not Live In The United States, Like most of us, You Live In Argentina. So why do You Give a Shit. Traitor![/QUOTE]WT,
You have no justification for calling me a "[i]Traitor[/i]".
You can post your apology at any time.
Thanks,
Jackson
Do you agree with Romney selling American Jobs to Overseas Companies?
If you do not I stand Corrected?
But, along with selling the Companies, can go Manufacturing Secrets.
Which would be a Traitorous act against the United States.
Of which I think these bastards would do with the only thought would be about making Money, No Regards about people like you or me.
Like I said you are not in their Class.
They would have no remorse about doing it.
Are these are the People that you want to watch your pocket book?
Come On, think about it?
They have no plans for us not Mega Rich.
[QUOTE=Jackson; 426157]WT,
You have no justification for calling me a "[i]Traitor[/i]"
You can post your apology at any time.
Thanks,
Jackson[/QUOTE]
Technically his slander seems to cover all of us that lives abroad or had in past.
And from his latest reply below, seems like from that line in Princess Bride, I don't think traitor means what he thinks it means. Throws that out for a bizarre range of things, including it seems pure envy at people that has wealth.
[QUOTE=Jackson; 426157]WT,
You have no justification for calling me a "[i]Traitor[/i]".
You can post your apology at any time.
Thanks,
Jackson[/QUOTE]
The tax cut in 1981 and 2001 reduced the tax revenue while the tax increase in 1993 increased the revenue. Thanks.
[QUOTE=Jackson; 426155]Not true. Historically, lowering taxes increases business activity and results in higher tax revenues.[/QUOTE]
Why are the Job Creators sitting on that much money and not Creating Jobs?
They had their taxes reduced to help them Create Jobs.
A lot of propaganda here about taxes and such without anything to really back it up.
WT, you accuse Jackson of not being specific in his list, and state two items that come right out of the Democratic propaganda. Without ANY specification of where you get your data.
As far as taxing the "rich" and those poor, poor people who are so under-trodden in the US, raising revenues and paying off the federal debt and so on, try looking at real data and forget the propaganda. There are enough good data out there to give a reasonably clear picture of reality, no matter how much which side wants to spin data or outright lie.
[url]http://blogs.marketwatch.com/fundmastery/2010/07/02/does-hiking-tax-rates-raise-more-revenue/[/url]
Just take a look at that, which, according to the author was compiled with sources both "right" and "left." Actual revenue compared to percentage of GDP has remained steady throughout the last 60 years, at around 18-20. It doesn't matter whether tax RATES are raised or lowered. Spending is causing the problem, not revenue. Investors WILL find ways to not get taxed on things like capital gains because they can control when to sell, as an example."Taxpayers adapt to higher rates" as one section calls it.
Currently, ON THE AVERAGE (I. E, specific cases are a different story under this idiotic tax code that "lawmakers" make to allow themselves and their buddies NO MATTER WHICH "side" they're on to benefit) , poor people pay either nothing or a significantly SMALLER portion of their taxes than "rich" people do. The "crossover point" where share of income earned vs share of federal taxes paid begins at around $100K earned per year. Is that rich? Anyone who thinks that is out of their minds. I've made that previously in my life (when the dollar was WORTH MORE) , and I can guarantee you I wasn't a rich investor hiding my money from people and grinding the poor beneath my boot heels.
Another link:
http://mercatus.org/publication/tax-rates-vs-tax-revenues
The point everyone seems to be missing is that two competing political philosophies in a country as diverse as the US is ridiculous.
The US federal government has become a tyrant. People scoff at people like Ron Paul because he has such "extreme" ideas, without even understanding the basis behind them. Does anyone who scoffs at him even understand why, for example, he wants to get rid of the Fed? Aside from those who simply believe the government must control every aspect of life, including the economy. With the number of regulations, requirements, taxes, etc, arising throughout all of the federal government, does no one question why things aren't improving?
WT, I wonder, truly, if you've ever bothered to look into anything beyond the Democratic power propaganda? You call Jackson uneducated (someone who I personally know to be actually quite the opposite) and yet you spout ideas right out of the Democratic play book without explaining them as if the words themselves justify their speaking and sense as "obvious".
This basic feeling from the left particularly, and from the right at times, that the government is any kind of a solution, and the growth of the government to take care of these things in particular, is quite naive in face of the reality that is there once you get away from the general idiocy that BOTH parties spout.
The US is a behemoth controlled by two parties who spout differences, fight amongst themselves and do everything they can to aggregate more power to themselves and the corporations and other public and private entities who support them. Both sides want the same thing and don't stray too far from the "center" (until presidents like Obama get in office after presidents like Bush [right or wrong. Too many wanted a "change without even understanding what is really going on]) The problem is, the "center" is a steadily increasing line on a graph of authoritarianism that has NOTHING to do with what's actually good for the population of the people.
Take one myth, for example, that both sides (the left way more than the right though) have professed to be against. Monopolies.
WT. You are so gung-ho for all the "do-gooders" on the left who ***** about this stuff, but answer me one thing. Show me a SINGLE monopoly that has existed in the US that has been successful. WITHOUT intervention from the government to support that monopoly? If there are no cases of this, tell me how these kinds of fears raised particularly among the left, and sometimes supported by the right, that have brought this overwhelming need for so much anti-monopoly legislation in the past and what good that has actually done. Except to break up competition for "approved" monopolies?
WT. You want my money in taxes taken at gunpoint, you want to put so many restrictions on how, even as a small entrepreneur, I can do my business, even penalize me for not paying my employees' medical expenses. All so you and people like you can give my money to people who have learned how to "game" the system (either intentionally, or as what they perceive as their own real need because that's how they've been raised) and you DARE to call anyone who is against such things a TRAITOR because, for example, I came to Buenos Aires for cheap labor because I couldn't make money in the States any more?
Please.
The US is too big. The wants and desires of 300+ million people in the US are way too diverse to be controlled on a federal level, at the level to which they are trying to be controlled, for the "greater good." You want to take from the rich and distribute to the poor because you feel those poor people can't do anything for themselves? Ok, that's a vast difference in belief from what I, and many others like me, believe. I am intellectually and emotionally opposed. 100, to that.
YOU HAVE NO RIGHT except for the right people some 220 years ago gave to their descendants, while warning directly against what is happening today, which is a tyranny of the masses, not a government who is concerned about making the playing field level for all and in that allowing everyone to exceed according to their own abilities.
This is the heart of MY belief. The US is too big and too powerful. It must break up. Let the welfare state followers find their Utopia in their own country, let the free market people do the same, and so on. Let the original experiment the founders of the US originally intended continue by allowing competing systems, instead of continuing along the lines the true traitors to the original concept have followed in oppressing the people overall, without most even being aware of it.
If things keep going the way they have been for the last 100 years or so, just look at Argentina. You want to live like that? Maybe so. But I DON'T.
You want to encourage small entrepreneurs like me to create jobs in the US instead of taking them overseas? MAKE CONDITIONS MORE FAVORABLE TO BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT and provide opportunities to people instead of taking those opportunities from them. Don't expect people like me to "take one for the team" and invest stupidly because you say taking my money and making my life difficult is fair and I'm a traitor.
You want a president to CREATE JOBS? It's NOT something that the president can do. He's not a businessman (while in office at least. I'm talking about any president but Obama is a special case in that he has no idea how to run a business to begin with) he's a politician. HE (or she one day) will NEVER produce a single productive job by adding federal jobs and regulations and laws and taxes. Hell, he can't even create or remove existing laws. He's the PRESIDENT, not a congressman. The BEST he can do is lead, and veto stupidity that comes across his desk (in economic terms. He does have quite a bit of leeway with the military, but that's another discussion).
Get the hell out of the way and let business run itself, without creating so many damned social programs and forcing people into shapes they don't belong in, in the name of "helping" people who shouldn't need help to begin with if things were running right, and people will have more opportunities than they know what to do with. Let the government enforce a simple set of laws and quit trying to influence the economy (often for their own ends, or their buddies') and you won't have the need for such confusion and idiocy. But the politicians won't have so much power either.
I want Texas to secede from the Union. I would hope that such an event would cause other states to break away as well. Let the behemoth become a bunch of smaller, fairer (to their own population) countries.
We had a discussion about this the other night. Romney's words are much closer to my beliefs than Obama's. Obama is so far out there to me that I can't stomach the thought of voting for him. But Romney is a member of the same fraternity and the only thing I see with him is the possibility of slowing down the inevitable. Some think we need Republicans to fix things, but I don't think the problem can be fixed because it is inherent in how too many people (the masses who are voting themselves MORE and MORE) think nowadays.
So for me, if Romney is going to slow things down, and Bush and Obama (Obama more so) both put so many future debt obligations on the backs of the US population who pay for it (poor people and politicians sure as hell don't) , maybe I SHOULD vote for Obama to allow things to progress even faster if he wins.
[QUOTE=WorldTravel69; 426162]Why are the Job Creators sitting on that much money and not Creating Jobs?
They had their taxes reduced to help them Create Jobs.[/QUOTE]I thought the president was supposed to create jobs? (heh.)
They are not doing so because most of them are very uncertain about what's going on. Again, look at the extreme of Argentina. Why do people not invest here and hold their money in real estate and under the mattresses? Because Argentina is not a friend of investors and is unstable in that regard. Money goes where it is allowed to flow, just like water.
[QUOTE=El Queso;426171]you DARE to call anyone who is against such things a TRAITOR because, for example, I came to Buenos Aires for cheap labor because I couldn't make money in the States any more?[/QUOTE]This is what I don't understand about WT69. He claims not to be racist or prejudiced. But he believes only certain people are entitled to a living wage. If you live in China or Mexico or even Texas (remembering his comments about the Keystone pipeline) then you shoudn't have a good job. He passes it off with the regular union BS about how those people don't have decent working conditions, they work long hours, etc. I don't think he's a bad person. But I don't think he's learned much from his travels. If he had, he'd know that globalization has improved living standards immensely in third world countries. Like you I've invested and done business in developing countries. While I did it for profit, I'm proud of the small part I've played in providing jobs to people who REALLY need them. As a result they have better diets and health care. I'm proud to be a traitor by WT69's definition. The people that WT69 thinks he's trying to protect, the USA middle class, are among the most blessed in the world. The reason I say "thinks" is because his ideas would hurt the majority of Americans, not just the wealthy who he despises.
Americans do not realize that their daily lifestyle is all about convenience and waste. They have grown up in the land of plenty with many choices of where to live and work. Food and oil were downright cheap until the 70s / 80s. But now they have competition for the same goods and commodities from all over the world. Bubbles, easy credit and marketing have created an illusion of the American Dream, and instant gratification is the normal mindset of the masses. The more we make, the more we spend. For me, there was always one more shoe to buy and one more trip to make. It never ends.
Legal immigrants come in the thousands every day, and the majority will be middle class within 3-10 years. I see the spending habits of my co-workers and the difference between Americans and immigrants is mind-blogging. The cafeteria would have to be closed down if it depended on the immigrants to eat there. And that is just one area of spending. It is not difficult to see where the problems are. By the way, I don't question people's spending as long as they have the cash.
And the poor will always be with us, and good or bad, so willl the rich. Will the middle class be always with us? It is the middle class that is the power / engine of the American economy.
Ramprant's post, #1168 on August 31 was the origin of my prior post. Somehow, the "reply with quote" is not working for me.
I Apologize to Jackson and All.
My reasons for my anger are:
I have always believed in the truth and fairness to all.
But when I listen to the lies that Romney, Ryan and the Republican Congress put out, it drives me up a wall.
I can't believe that you believe in those lies, when the New York Times and other Newspapers reported that they were not the Truth.
I have always supported the Democratic Party, because they always been fair to the working class.
I have worked for the Employer as Foreman and for the Union as Shop Steward.
I have always worked what I can make and hourly wages.
I have worked selling papers on the corner of Haight and Ashbury. Funny, that was before the hippies.
I had delivered papers to the doors of people.
My High School Printing teacher got me a job in a print shop, which led to a Union Job.
I got a degree, taught at Stanford. Finished my apprenticeship and traveled working across the states, New York, Connecticut, Montreal and back home to California.
Back in San Francisco I worked in Financial Printing as a foreman for 20 years. So I do know a little about finance and management. I helped the workers, and did not bully them. They put out more work that way. After that I worked at the Newspapers, for a few years, as a Forman again in one of the Newspapers.
Next I worked for the University of California, Berkeley. I started in the '90s at $14 an hour. Low wages for that time. I was the shop steward for 13 years. I negotiated on contracts for the Union with the University. The University had special labor provisions granted by the State Government, they were exempt from some Labor Laws; a State within a State. They allowed us to negotiate so 'Long as it didn't interfere with the Running of the University'. In part we were not allowed to strike. We sort of had a Gun in negotiations with No Bullets. So, we took what they gave us.
Meanwhile their Institutional leaders kept getting their raises and Golden Retirement Packages, while asking cut backs from their workers.
So, when the Super-Pacs can buy our Government, us Workers will always be fucked.
Now you know why I am pissed at those that believe the lies.
[QUOTE=WorldTravel69; 426188]But when I listen to the lies that Romney, Ryan and the Republican Congress put out, it drives me up a wall.
I can't believe that you believe in those lies, when the New York Times and other Newspapers reported that they were not the Truth.[/QUOTE]I took you up on your challenge and watched a couple of episodes of the Newsroom. You should take me up on mine and watch Stossel. Try reading the editorial page on the Wall Street Journal, which is to the right what the New York Times is to the left. Also some neutral sources like the Washington Post. Finally take a look at El Queso's excellent post below. If you do this, you'll see that both parties lie. Pelosi and Reid are as bad as any. Reid's claim that Romney didn't pay income taxes for 10 years was a doozy. IMHO while Romney has changed positions more than most, he tells far fewer outright lies than most Washington politicians.
I'm not asking you to do anything that I don't. I watch MSNBC and read the NYT.
[QUOTE=WorldTravel69; 426188]I Apologize to Jackson and All.
My reasons for my anger are:
I have always believed in the truth and fairness to all.
But when I listen to the lies that Romney, Ryan and the Republican Congress put out, it drives me up a wall.
I can't believe that you believe in those lies, when the New York Times and other Newspapers reported that they were not the Truth.
I have always supported the Democratic Party, because they always been fair to the working class.
I have worked for the Employer as Foreman and for the Union as Shop Steward.
I have always worked what I can make and hourly wages.
I have worked selling papers on the corner of Haight and Ashbury. Funny, that was before the hippies.
I had delivered papers to the doors of people.
My High School Printing teacher got me a job in a print shop, which led to a Union Job.
I got a degree, taught at Stanford. Finished my apprenticeship and traveled working across the states, New York, Connecticut, Montreal and back home to California.
Back in San Francisco I worked in Financial Printing as a foreman for 20 years. So I do know a little about finance and management. I helped the workers, and did not bully them. They put out more work that way. After that I worked at the Newspapers, for a few years, as a Forman again in one of the Newspapers.
Next I worked for the University of California, Berkeley. I started in the '90s at $14 an hour. Low wages for that time. I was the shop steward for 13 years. I negotiated on contracts for the Union with the University. The University had special labor provisions granted by the State Government, they were exempt from some Labor Laws; a State within a State. They allowed us to negotiate so 'Long as it didn't interfere with the Running of the University'. In part we were not allowed to strike. We sort of had a Gun in negotiations with No Bullets. So, we took what they gave us.
Meanwhile their Institutional leaders kept getting their raises and Golden Retirement Packages, while asking cut backs from their workers.
So, when the Super-Pacs can buy our Government, us Workers will always be fucked.
Now you know why I am pissed at those that believe the lies.[/QUOTE]All you need is a good SS check & move to Thailand. You don't have to be rich to be contented, just have enough. Some of this shit, you really can't do much. At least, in our generation. The American Spring is still quite aways. Obama is not the Messiah, he is John the Baptist.
I forgot to mention that we used to print for all of Cal's 9 University Campus' and did some of the State of California printing.
That was then, but now the University decided to close the Printing Department and Farm Out the work.