American Politics during the Bush Presidency

[QUOTE=Sidney]Not $1 of pledges yet. The unfortunates need you help! Maybe you guys are ''all talk, no action''![/QUOTE]Why would we send you anything? If you follow standard conservative actions-the minute you got our money it would be confiscated for personal use.

Perhaps there are others out there naive enough to believe you would use any money we provide you to benefit anyone other than yourself.

FYI - I already have organizations I donate to to help others. What about you and all the other conservatives?

Hmm? No? Sorry I asked!

Suerte.

Stowe.

The conservative motto is not "1 for all and all for 1" but rather "1 for me and all for me".

With respect to Alexandre Dumas.

[QUOTE=Stowe]You just provide another example of the dishonesty (crookedness-corruption? Of so many Republicans. If you truly believe this and intend on doing as stated (and I suspect you mean it whether you do it or not) that indicates a total lack of have integrity or honesty. No surprise there!

Unlike you, and almost every other Repub that posts here, you never post a negative about anything Republican. I don't agree with everything that Obama (or the Dems) proposes, like his position on illegal aliens, but I disagree with ALMOST everything that the Republicans stand for in this day and age. Just look at their tactics. All they spew is fear and hate, fear and hate. That is the Republican platform nowadays: fear and hate.[/QUOTE]You honestly think that anybody is going to work harder if half (or even more) of what they earn gets sucked down by the gaping maw of Big Government? Pshaw! At least I'm honestly telling you that I won't contribute to the larger economy when I have no incentive to do so. Most every guy who has capital and gumption will react the same way, and the results for the larger economy will not be pretty.

I've never been hired for a job by a poor man. And I doubt he's going to hire me now that he gets a check from Washington for sitting on his lazy ass (oops - "tax cut!").

A wise man said not so long ago: "A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you have." Capital is not static and doesn't respect national borders anymore. If the U. S. Government wants to steal my money with an outrageous level of taxation, there's no reason for me to sit still and allow them to take it and "spread it around" to somebody whose only claim to it is that he has a pulse. :D

No "fear and hate" in that - it's simple economics. And that's exactly why a guy like Joe the Plumber was able to put a human face on the Marxist policies of B. Hussein Obama.

[QUOTE=Hunt99]I've never been hired for a job by a poor man.[/QUOTE]No, but based on your prior post where you stated "I'm going to hide everything from the Obama IRS and engage in massive tax fraud, just like anybody else with a little bit of money and a lick of sense is going to do" you indicate that you intend to break the law and not pay your taxes, you evidently wouldn't be above stealing from a poor man.

[QUOTE=Stowe]No, but based on your prior post where you stated "I'm going to hide everything from the Obama IRS and engage in massive tax fraud, just like anybody else with a little bit of money and a lick of sense is going to do" you indicate that you intend to break the law and not pay your taxes, you evidently wouldn't be above stealing from a poor man.[/QUOTE]Hey Stowe baby, you seem to be hung up on personal slights, amigo! Did I fuck your private chica one time and get you upset?

I'm telling you how it is - shorn of the legalese and accounting sleight-of-hand. If you make it more expensive to make an honest living than to not make one at all, people with capital are going to do what it takes to protect it. Nobody is going to devote themselves to work just to enrich the tax man, not unless they have a screw loose. It's called capitalism, amigo!

Do you want prosperity? Drop the income tax code, enact a 10% sales tax on everything (or 15% , or whatever it is - including all financial transactions and everything else) and have at it. This nation will have prosperity like it has never seen.

This idea that the government is the source of all wealth, and that proper economic policy is to "spread it around" is simple Marxism. Heck, even the Chinese don't believe in that stuff anymore, but it's still taught as gospel at Columbia and Harvard. And advocated, in a prettified way, by their most prominent graduate.

Anyway, pleasure debating with you this afternoon, friend. I have to stop now and get dressed. I've got a hot chick I have to take out for dinner and then I have to ride her fine ass and blow some spooge in it in the back seat of my BMW. Filthy girl she is, she likes me to punish her!

I'll order a bottle of Dom and drink to your health! :D

We have all paid higher tax rates than the max that O is talking about. Since hunt99's agi is over $250,000. Why would he be concerned about saving 20 pesos. I am confused. The USA is economically falling apart. We are engaged in three wars. I need not say more.

I guess once a crook always a crook. Please do not discuss your plans to commit tax fraud or other serious crimes in the future on this board. I would hate to see this board busted. You can voice all of your negative emotions without planning criminal behavior here. This is the sort of thing that would cause a raid on the servers.

[QUOTE=Miami Bob]We have all paid higher tax rates than the max that O is talking about. Since hunt99's agi is over $250,000. Why would he be concerned about saving 20 pesos. I am confused. The usa is economically falling apart. We are engaged in three wars. I need not say more.

I guess once a crook always a crook. Please do not discuss your plans to commit tax fraud or other serious crimes in the future on this board. I would hate to see this board busted. You can voice all of your negative emotions without planning criminal behavior here. This is the sort of thing that would cause a raid on the servers.[/QUOTE]LOL! I'm the last guy who haggles over 20 pesos. No Dom for you! You can drink that $5 a bottle stuff that has a ship on the label.

[QUOTE=Hunt99]Hey Stowe baby, you seem to be hung up on personal slights, amigo! Did I fuck your private chica one time and get you upset?

I'm telling you how it is - shorn of the legalese and accounting sleight-of-hand. If you make it more expensive to make an honest living than to not make one at all, people are going to do it. Nobody is going to devote themselves to enriching the tax man, not unless they have a screw loose.

Do you want prosperity? Drop the income tax code, enact a 10% sales tax on everything (or 15% , or whatever it is - including all financial transactions and everything else) and have at it. This nation will have prosperity like it has never seen.

This idea that the government is the source of all wealth, and that proper economic policy is to "spread it around" is simple Marxism. Heck, even the Chinese don't believe in that stuff anymore, but it's still taught as gospel at Columbia and Harvard. And advocated, in a prettified way, by their most prominent graduate.[/QUOTE]

If I got a bit personal it was because I felt you attacked first - this time, as well as the last time a few months ago-the last time we traded barbs. I try not to initiate invectives (unless I am totally drunk-hehe) but I will respond accordingly and persistently (sometimes unfortunately!) If you attack someone, shouldn't you expect like in return?

You and I have a basic difference of opinion which is perfectly fine-I really enjoy most of these types of discussions-even with someone I disagree with. I would much prefer to disagree cordially.

I do have one question. If high taxes will negatively impact the economic / social health of a society, why do the Scandinavian countries have a higher standard of living (except Denmark) than the US, cheaper healthcare, free education and pay SIGNIFICANTLY more taxes?

I definitely do NOT like taxes but they are a necessary evil. Without taxes we would not have, what is considered by most, the best infrastructure in the world (unfortunately declining severley) Where almost EVERY single person has sewer, municipal water, electricity, roads, etc.

Stowe

[QUOTE=Stowe]Warren Buffett believe that he, and all the rich, should be contributing more in taxes. He fears for the economic survival of middle class which is what made the US the economic powerhouse of the world. Without the middle class, the US would be a microcosm of what it is.

The Reagan trickle down theory has been proven to be nothing but a shame. And all stats indicate that the rich are getting richer and the poor and middle class are going bye, bye. Salaries the last 10 years for the middle class have decreased, when adjusted for inflation, while for the rich they have increased at a higher rate that any time in, something like, the past 40 years.

I would not consider him 'crazy'.[/QUOTE]Buffet's "beliefs" about taxes are self serving or result from his personal experience. A couple of examples -- he does believe dividends paid to individuals should be taxed at a higher rate. Buffet's wealth has been from his ownership in Berkshire Hathaway. Berkshire is a corporation. Corporations have historically have gotten a 70% to 85% exemption from taxes on dividends. So while some poor schmo like me was paying 39.6% tax on my dividends, Buffet was getting away with a rate of more like 5% to 10%. If the dividend were a compelling reason to buy the shares, then Buffet could pay more than me. A high tax on dividends provides him with a competitive advantage.

You can expand this to individual taxes in general. What does Buffet care if the individual tax rate is 39.6% or 50% or 70%? He owns Berkshire Hathaway. What he gets directly in ordinary income, interest income, etc., is insignificant to him -- it's puny, tiny, infintesimal compared to what he has in Berkshire.

And the death tax. He'll leave some miniscule percentage of his wealth to his kids, a $100 million a piece or whatever, and the rest goes to the Gates Foundation. He favors the wealth tax, hey, it's a great way to get other billionaires to leave money to charity, so the government doesn't take 45% of it. But what about family businesses worth, say, $5 million, $50 million, $100 million, whatever. After they finish paying the 45% , they're wiped out. Their businesses are destroyed. Buffet has made a lot of money buying up private businesses on the cheap and incorporating them into Berkshire Hathaway. Why? I'd bet in many instances because the families couldn't pay the death tax. So they sell out to Buffet but they keep on working for him -- they were masters of their own destinies. Now they're slaves, albeit slaves with a lot of money.

About your other point, rising inequality. First the slanted studies you refer to
always use households, not individuals, for comparison. Since there are more households headed by single persons, the households aren't getting richer but the individuals are. Second they're based on income before tax. As a result of tax cuts by Bush etal, 50% of the population pays no or little income tax. If you look at the figures on an after tax basis they don't look so bad. Third, there have been improvements in purchasing power that the statistics don't capture, for example, the quality of a car or a television now vs. 20 or 30 years ago. Fourth, what you're blaming on Republicans shouldn't be blamed on Republicans. The studies you're talking about show a lot of the rising inequality occurring under Clinton or under governments where neither Republicans nor Democrats controlled both the executive and legislative branches. And for that matter most of this the politicians have no control over -- it results from changes in an industrial, labor intensive economy to something more knowlege based.

So really Stowe, what you want to do is tax the rich more so they'll become poorer, regardless of whether or not it will increase tax revenue. What you're after is to make everyone equal, regardless of whether that also makes everyone poorer. Hunt has valid points. The Laffer curve is real.

[QUOTE=Stowe]I do have one question. If high taxes will negatively impact the economic / social health of a society, why do the Scandinavian countries have a higher standard of living (except Denmark) than the US, cheaper healthcare, free education and pay SIGNIFICANTLY more taxes?[/QUOTE]First of all, that's not true, except for Norway, which is the Abu Dhabi of Europe (lots of oil) After adjusting for purchasing power, the U. S. Has a higher standard of living. Second, why do Chinese in Singapore and Hong Kong and Swiss make a lot of money? Because they work their butts off and they value education. The Scandinavians too value education, and by European standards they're industrious. I did read some research that indicated these countries benefitted economically when they lowered tax rates, but I'm too lazy to look it up.

How about comparing the rate of growth in high tax states, like Scandinavia, France, Germany, etc., to low tax countries, like Singapore, Hong Kong, Ireland or most of eastern Europe? There is a strong correlation between lower taxes and stronger economic growth.

[QUOTE=Tiny12]First of all, that's not true, except for Norway, which is the Abu Dhabi of Europe (lots of oil) After adjusting for purchasing power, the U. S. Has a higher standard of living. Second, why do Chinese in Singapore and Hong Kong and Swiss make a lot of money? Because they work their butts off and they value education. The Scandinavians too value education, and by European standards they're industrious. I did read some research that indicated these countries benefitted economically when they lowered tax rates, but I'm too lazy to look it up.

How about comparing the rate of growth in high tax states, like Scandinavia, France, Germany, etc. To low tax countries, like Singapore, Hong Kong, Ireland or most of eastern Europe? There is a strong correlation between lower taxes and stronger economic growth.[/QUOTE]Absolutely wrong based on the HDI (Human Development Index) which calculates we are 12th with all but Denmark with a higher standard of living.

Here is the calculation used-it measures life expectancy, education and standard of living based on the GDP-this is the formula used by all internation organizations (and the UN) to measure and compare:

In general, to transform a raw variable, say x, into a unit-free index between 0 and 1 (which allows different indices to be added together) the following formula is used: x-index = \frac{x - \min\left (x\right)} {\max\left (x\right)-\min\left (x\right)}

Where \min\left (x\right) and \max\left (x\right) are the lowest and highest values the variable x can attain, respectively.

The Human Development Index (HDI) then represents the average of the following three general indices:

* Life Expectancy Index = \frac{LE - 25} {85-25}

* Education Index = \frac{2} {3} \times ALI + \frac{1} {3} \times GEI.

O Adult Literacy Index (ALI) = \frac{ALR - 0} {100 - 0}

O Gross Enrollment Index (GEI) = \frac{CGER - 0} {100 - 0}

* GDP Index = \frac{\log\left (GDPpc\right) - \log\left (100\right)} {\log\left (40000\right) - \log\left (100\right)}

LE: Life expectancy at birth.

ALR: Adult literacy rate (ages 15 and older)

CGER: Combined gross enrollment ratio for primary, secondary and tertiary schools.

GDPpc: GDP per capita at PPP in USD

Stowe, OK, I'm just considering your last variable, Per capita GDP adjusted for PPP.

The first three items on your list are life expectancy (i.e. health care), education, and literacy (i.e. education), and I don't understand the rest of the list, except for per capita GDP. We spend more per capita on health care than any country in the world. Adjusted for PPP, I bet we spend more per capita on education too. So do you think raising taxes and spending more on health and education are the solutions to our problems? That's what most democrat politicians think, we should just throw more money down a bottomless pit without fixing the root causes of the problem. Especially when it's their constituencies that benefit from the problems, like the members of the National Education Association and the trial lawyers who sue doctors, hospitals, drug and insurance companies.

And about your other post,

[QUOTE=Stowe]FYI - I already have organizations I donate to to help others. What about you and all the other conservatives?

Hmm? No? Sorry I asked!

The conservative motto is not "1 for all and all for 1" but rather "1 for me and all for me". [/QUOTE]I've donated more to nonprofits in the last two years than you will in your entire life. The arch conservative administrator of this site has spearheaded efforts at helping the poverty stricken. There are many conservatives that donate to help others. We'd prefer to use our money where it will actually do some good, instead of having government waste it.

[QUOTE=Tiny12]I've donated more to nonprofits in the last two years than you will in your entire life. [/QUOTE]Why don't you just ignore my posts since you obviously missed the fact that those numbers were not mine but what the WORLD uses to measure standards-of-living.

Why don't you move on from my posts.

Suerte,

Stowe

No, YOU missed the point. I guess Cuba has one of the highest standards of living anywhere, as in terms of life expectancy, education and literacy it stacks up better than about 90% of the rest of the world. Scandinavian countries have a higher "standard of living" by your definition because they've done something right in education and health care, even though we throw more money at those problems than they do. Attributing the difference to taxes makes absolutely no sense.

Sorry Stowe, I know we're about to be out in the wilderness after this election, and I'm taking it all out on you. That's a lot safer than taking it out on somebody you know in real life that can beat the shit out of you.

[QUOTE=Tiny12]So while some poor schmo like me was paying 39.6% tax on my dividends.[/QUOTE]Is that really true, Tiny, or are you just bullshitting us?

Yes, I'm calling your bluff.

Because if it is so, you are such a "POOR SCHMO" that your taxable income was among the top 1% of all taxpayers in the entire United States of America! If that is the case, you should count your blessings that out great system has enabled you to earn such incredible wealth, and quit being such a UNGRATEFUL fucking CRYBABY!

My bet is that you didn't come close to earning that much or you would be WAY too busy to be writing your complaints here.

Your line about paying 39.6% has about as much credibility as the now infamous "Joe the Plumber," who is in the 15% bracket and still hasn't paid his taxes; has no money to buy a business; is not a licensed plumber; and isn't even named Joe, for Chrissakes!

Conservatives live in such a fantasy world, don't they?

If you actually did have an income among the top 1% in America, you would know that because of our graduated income tax brackets, even the 1% of the taxpayers who hit the marginal rate of 39.6% on their top dollars only average paying 25% on their overall income. You can even look it up:

[url]http://www.cbpp.org/3-6-01tax2.htm[/url]

A pretty cheap price to pay to live in such a great country that provides the infrastucture, freedom, and public supports to become one of the wealthiest people on the planet!

Now, the fact that you use an inflamatory term such as "death tax" when referring to the [i]estate tax[/i] shows that you are on a political mission and not actually interested in a reasonable policy discussion.

I HIGHLY doubt that you are among the 440 richest families in America. After all they are the only ones with enough assets to be subject to the estate tax. You can look that up to:

[url]http://www.factcheck.org/article328.html[/url]

Furthermore, you would know that no tax of any kind has been paid upon the capitol gains in an estate, due to the "step up" cost basis at the time the estate passes to the heirs.

Thus, an estate tax serves as a replacement for the income tax which was never imposed on the capitol gains of those 440 families a year who would be so lucky to command such a store of wealth.

DB.

P. S. To Stowe: Are all these conservatives born so totally full of shit, or do they really have to work at being completely oblivious?