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Regarding Quality and the Exodas:
Common sense tells you that many cannot/will not leave BA due to family condition, ability to get visa's, fear of unknown, etc. I have talked to some who have gone to more lucrative pasteures but they come back; they get home sick I think.
Prices are up:
Agreed, but it beats the 1:1 days. Through conversations with some of the girls, some over a period of time, the chica network is stronger than ever. It doesn't take more than 1 or 2 of their buddies to latch on to a sugar daddy type, or someone/someplace where the fees extracted are off the norm scale, and the girls feel they deserve and have the right to the same. Can they get it? Maybe. If not? Back to the old haunts/regulars where they may become miserable because they are not getting what they want.
Other Recoleta clubs.
I have not heard much of the other places in Recoleta lately besides Black, Newport and Madaho. Any news?
MAG
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Well! It seems the price topic has gotten real attention. Why am I not surprised? I have been trying to fight the tourist mentality for some time. My conclusion is, we can't win(the non-tourists) because we can't eliminate the tourist mentality(the guy who comes with $US5000 to spend in 10 days and spends it). He is the same guy who goes to Las Vegas and loses it in the casinos, or the thieving strip joints. He has no interest in value, only really in spending the money. For this reason, there always grows an industry willing to help him spend it for the least value. If we can direct these tourists to the tourist exploiters, they will do less harm.
I am not a tourist. I am a world traveller. I travel all the time, and expect to do so as long as my health allows me. While I have a generous budget compared to almost everyone here, I care about price and quality. I have a goal to have a woman TLN every day, 365 days a year, if possible. I am late 50's, I like women of 20. It doesn't work to try to marry one(see below), so it only works to pay cash per performance. Often I see the same women over periods of weeks, like DH. But $ar50 is important when one pays it every day, so I can't have the vacationer-tourist's attitude, and wouldn't want to have it.
Yes, Black and Madahos are destroyed. Sex in these places are rising to world value, to where the tourists resist paying more. We have to get used to that. The same thing is happening to the popular web sites. As to why world prices are what they are, "Latina Addict" and Prokofiev have the right idea. The tourists are overpaying. Starfe, I also bought women in Las Vegas starting in 1971. I could take nice talent from Ceasers Palace for $75 then. The brothel price was $35 north of Vegas. Things have changed in the US, mostly as they got tougher on the prostitution trade and tourism increased. I wouldn't touch Las Vegas now. But yes, you are bringing the tourist mentality with you to BA. For you, it really doesn't matter much between Lois Suites and Black in BA and the Hotel Bristol and Le Palace in Panama City. You plan to spend whatever you can afford to bring, with no regard for value or market conditions. Which makes you perfect for the tourist exploiter.
Sex prices in the rich nations are set by monopoly price fixing. The price is basically marriage, and the monopoly is maintained by law. This gives sex an extremely high value. So high that most people in these countries don't get much. Just as I didn't when I lived in the US(even as a good income executive for years). Sex simply wasn't worth the price in the US. It got a lot worse for me in PA after the passage of the Berkowitz rape law(its rape if she says it is, even if force or threats were not involved). This has to be added to the price of sex. An ACCUSATION costs at least $100,000 to defend, so extortion is a real concern if you have anything to lose. So there were a great many days I would have gladly dropped $500 on a decent quality woman just to feel her up without risk.
You will also note that all of the English speaking countries of the world are among the worst, followed by Japan. The US is the absolute worst. You can thank the long influence of women(like Queen Victoria) in the governance and religion of these countries. Which is why Americans are so driven as sex tourists.
So the world price of sex has more to do with the disposable vacation income of the sex tourist than its value in the rich countries, since the value of sex in marriage is outrageously high, more than half your income/year for whatever your wife sees fit to give you, out of the goodness of her heart. And you are trapped, because the price of divorce is even more ridiculous. The price of sex in a dating relationshop is also ridiculous, since the woman is usually interested in trapping you into marriage on top of the other costs.
As to the value of sex as a job for the women sex workers, it really does have to do with the income levels of the community where they live. Saint, you seem a nice guy, but we really part on this issue. You keep going on about the difficulty of this job. Crap. This is what women do for a living everywhere. Usually, we call the job "wife", with pay as above. Is cleaning the bathrooms of apartments so much better? Or washing the feet of fat wealthy women in beauty spas? Or washing the shit off the behinds of old people in nursing homes? Cleaning up vomit in hospitals? Or working picking crops in the sun, working as a waitress in a cafe? These are the jobs with "dignity" for the poor young women. Give me a break. The real reason there aren't more women jumping to do this is "see monopoly", above. The older and upper class women are desperate to try to keep young, pretty, poor women from taking advantage of their greatest asset in a free market. So they try to force a poor, pretty, young woman to marry a poor man and work in one of the jobs above(IN ADDITION TO THE JOB OF SERVICING HER HUSBAND), thereby avoiding competition with her.
Saint, notice how in the discussion about paying a maid(in Living in Argentina) to clean the crap out of your bathrooms you sing a totally different tune about overpaying and tipping. Is her job so great? Why do you want to tip the bartenders at Madahos, who did nothing but rip you off; more than your maid who works so hard for you?
Currently, I see a 21YO woman 4 nights a week, TLN 9-9 for which I pay her $ar150/night. At $ar600/week, this woman is in heaven. She never hoped to make so much in her life. Where a waiter makes maybe $ar250/week for a 10 hour day, or a store clerk $ar100/week? I am actually very generous with her in this market. My greatest concern is the effect on her when I have to end the relationship.
The proper solution to this is to use this forum to monitor and study the market and then behave and pay accordingly. This forum is interesting, because it gives one the opportunity to obtain information that is usually only available to a native of some time in an area. When a newbie asks for information to avoid the tourist traps, they are asking for information that normally is only acquired with difficulty and local experience. But there is a responsibility that comes with that information. That responsibility is basically to behave the way the people who acquired that information behaved, i.e. as veteran or local, so one doesn't create tourist exploiters. So they really need to study all that is available.
This is a very practical issue for me. I am, and plan to continue, travelling in out of the way areas. Like Andres does in BA. I have been posting, and much of the info is, and will be, new to the travellers. But should I really give out this info, and thereby invite a bunch of people to come to these places and attract the tourist sharks, thereby ruining it for myself in the future? Andres just got a taste of this when some people immediately took one of his fresh, new, young recommendations in an apartment over to Madahos to look for more money. I fully expect him to stop posting local info in this forum at any time if this crap continues. I would mourn the loss, since for me his info is amoung the most valuable.
The main reason I haven't stopped posting already is that I don't believe the continuous readers of this forum are the greatest culprits, particularly the more experienced travellers. This forum has been disparaging Madahos for months as becoming overpriced, and they just raised their prices. So obviously they have a lot of customers who don't agree with this forum. Instead, I cringe every time I hear about Moondog and his writeup praising BA in other forums as a great destination. I have never read any of them, but I have read every one of his postings here 4 times, using the search function. He has continually promoted the web sites(escorts-argentina and Platinum especially) and little else. Worse, he has been a constant advocate of increasing the price of the web women to the insane $ar300/hour(supporting the $US-$ar confusion ripoff), and overpaying in other ways. And I cringe when I have read for over a year Roxanne's explanatory post that the average price of internet women is $ar150-$ar200, clearly promoting overpaying. Many of these same women work from apartments for $ar80 or less. I think that those people have much greater influence on the newbies, who don't bother to read the volumes of stuff here, than I do.
But I still think about it every time I prepare a post on another city. And it is why I won't directly answer a newbie who asks: "Can you tell me where to go and what to do so I don't have to study at finding out thru the forum?". If one gives this person local knowledge, this is simply inviting problems. Leave these people to the tourist exploiters. Send them to Madahos, Black, Roxanne, escorts-argentina, and platinum.
We can expect that BA will further develop 2 markets, a tourist exploiting market that is well known to the tourists, and a secondary, locally priced market. The primary issue is how to support knowledge of the secondary market without inviting the "tourist mentality" types who would destroy it. This is a very small industry. The main clubs only have a total of less than 200 working women. The popular apartments less than 100. It doesn't really take many people to create a problem. The other cities are even smaller. Interestingly, especially in the Argentina forum, I like the fact that the real info is buried in so much garbage. I wish Andres did NOT have his own forum. It makes it too easy to find his valuable local info.
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Wow. Well, I can't agree with everything you are staying, I like how you are analyzing the situation. Interesting post.
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I used to love Madaho's and Recolleta. Last visit it was all Catto's, Cafe Exedra, and good old DH Maria's who works street near Galleria Pacifica. Little more inconvenient and not as nice atmosphere as Madaho's but still pretty and GFE women.
Remember lets only pay for value because the chase is as much fun the actual kill. The educated monger will only pay market. Of course there is the experience curve.
I know BA well and keep to 150 pesos. Was just in Lima and did same night 1 and 2 but got ripped off (price) at MP at major hotel on #3 Sunday morning because of bad market knowledge and limited time to search.
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Amen to [b]all[/b] of that, Brother Lexton.
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Well, I half agree with Lexton but I think he is naive if he expects the "local" market to remain a secret for long. There will be some movement of both girls from the local market to Madahos and Blacks, and tourists in the opposite direction. Also the owners of the places that supply the local market will soon be attracted to the dollars in the touristy places and they surely will make some moves to get some of those dollars if they are in any way entrepreneurial.
My original question to the readers of this forum is whether the improved economy since the devaluation days has increased prices and the answers appear to be unequivocal that it has.
Sadly, the arrival of the bigger budget tourist will produce inflationary pressures in this smaller market, however the arrival of these tourists is not at all surprising, given the more benign economic climate in the country.
On the other hand the increase in prices will surely attract other suppliers into the market (both new clubs and more girls). This too is inevitable.
Just MHO.
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We don't have to agree on everything. We all have our opinions and that is fine and dandy.
Lexton makes some great points but I still disagree with him on some of his points. When he says, "this is what women everywhere do for a living"... he is WAY off the mark, IMHO. This is NOT what women do everywhere. Until I read that Lexton is sleeping with overweight, drunk, older, and ugly women with BAD hygiene then he can tell me that this job is easy. (I'm in no way saying this is the make up of WSG members but look around at some of the clubs you are in). Like I said before, this job aint easy. Not to mention the emotional toll it takes on them. No way in hell I could do this job. Not for all the money in the world. I still remember one day in 2002 at a party Jackson threw at his apartment. I sat next to this guy that smelled like sh*t. He had the worst hygiene of anyone I ever met in my life. Every single person in the party was talking about it even days after the party. How that guy got any girl to sleep with him is beyond me. And some guys wonder why they get no "GFE".
We can all say that sex isn't free. We pay in some way. That is true. But that's totally different than saying that "every girl sleeps with anyone with money". Two totally different things. Most model hot girls in the USA and Europe won't just sleep with you because you have money. This is the single biggest problem I think with the mindset of many guys that hobby. They lose sight of reality and think that everything in life and sex revolves around money and ANY girl is available for a few $$. I just read on another private board (CH) some guy that posted the reality is he can sleep with ANY girl he wants. I posted a correction. No, he can sleep with any [b]prostitute[/b] he wants. There is a huge difference.
As far as tipping the maid. I do that too. Something interesting was a few weeks ago when I was at the WSG mansion. There were some girls there that Captain Dave hired for the photos of the Mansion. Andres was talking to them and I think one of the girls mentioned that she would rather clean houses and make 5 pesos an hour then sleep with guys for money. That is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Not every girl will sleep with just any guy that has money. That is the point you have to remember. There are FAR more girls like that in the world then the girls that we are meeting in Madahos or Black. That [b]IS[/b] reality.
The other thing is that someone posted about people like Dickhead paying a lot less. He will have no advantage going into a place like Madahos or Black and he realizes it. That's probably why he doesn't bother to go in. (The fact that drinks are ridiculously expensive probably doesn't help either). I've been with Andres several times to the places he goes. I've been to the places Dickhead goes to. I never have seen the quality that I see in Madahos or Black. You guys can post things like "yeah, but the sex is amazing with these girls". People like me need to have sex with the type we are attracted to the most.
We don't have to agree on everything. Hell, we don't have to agree on anything. That's what makes the world interesting. As far as people bitching about WSG, other people's informative posts, etc. and it causing price increases. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Yes, sites like WSG will cause more people to flock to BA or wherever but these same sites provide valuable information for the active traveler. If you don't want to participate then don't read it or post to it anymore. I still laugh because I'm on a few other private boards. Many people badmouth WSG but they are probably the guys that read it the most. Really funny to me.
Good luck and safe travels to all.
Saint
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Hi all,
Finally got my regular member status, have been in BA for the last few nights and loving it, only problem is I would have posted this earlier as I was looking for drinking/mongering buddies.
I´m still around in BA tonight and tomorrow (20th and 21st Sep)...staying at Loisuites Recoleta although I may have to move tomorrow..
If anyone is free and wants to hook up please feel free to PM me...alternatively I have a mobile phone provided by the hotel for tonight (4562 4889) so give me a call. I know I´m only scratching the surface of the BA scene as I don´t speak Spanish, and will happily buy a few (many) beers for anyone willing to show a rookie the ropes..
I will also be back in BA on the 28th, as I´m flying back to London on the 29th.
Cheers,
Andy
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As regards,
"The proper solution to this is to use this forum to monitor and study the market and then behave and pay accordingly."
I second the motion!
-HGL
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[quote]Lexton said
This forum is interesting, because it gives one the opportunity to obtain information that is usually only available to a native of some time in an area. When a newbie asks for information to avoid the tourist traps, they are asking for information that normally is only acquired with difficulty and local experience. But there is a responsibility that comes with that information. That responsibility is basically to behave the way the people who acquired that information behaved, i.e. as veteran or local, so one doesn't create tourist exploiters. So they really need to study all that is available.[/quote]
Hats off to you, Lexton. You couldn't have said it better.
I guess that, after Jackson retailors the forum, the local info will only be available for Senior members, thus avoiding the problems created by newbies in off-the-beaten-path places.
Andres
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Oh my Gawd lexton! I hereby nominate you as the most eloquent, got your shit together, most objective monger yet. even though Jackson and Dickhead are kings in my book, they have competition in you and, every word you wrote today on 20 sep is gold, 100% true and unrebutable.
The New York Times needs to publish your last post and open people's eyes.
Here here.
Latina AddictE
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I leave the board for a few hours to go to work and return this evening to find our very own monger version of the Lincoln-Douglas debates. I love it. You guys are alright.
Still, it's kind of disconcerting that the week before I make my first trip to BA, we're discussing the end of the glory days there. I have a knack for picking the so-called wrong times to be in mongering locations - Nashville just prior to the lockdown, Cuba post-crackdown, and now BA with its recovering economy and chica exodus. Except I still had a blast in Nashville, with a limitless pool of young talent, and where $80-$150 could land me the cute co-ed I had fantasized about in college, and $200-$300 would land me an all-American blond bombshell or raven-haired Southern beauty who I just wish I could tell my friends I had bedded.
And then there was Cuba, where it was easy to find two cute, playful, and passionate women at a time for several hours, all for the price of a steak at Ruth's Chris. And for $50 to $100, an unquestioned 8 or above on the world-wide monger scale from the clubs. No, there weren't women lined up on the Malecon for miles to see, but there were beauties in Cuba. They're always there. My problem with Cuba was not with the quality of the women, it was with the hoops you had to jump through to get to them.
So I'm still ever the optimist about this trip. Ignorance of past glory truly is bliss. With Cuba not worth the risk of a hefty fine at this point, my frame of reference remains daily life in the United States. Surely, gentlemen, for me the party is about to begin.
GC
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General Custer,
My best trip to Buenos Aires was my last trip in July. You are going to see and taste some of the very best women the world has to offer. It still is a once in a lifetime city. Our critique of prices does not take away at all from the pure joy of picking and choosing the love of you're night.
Have a great time,
starfe
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Ok I have to put in my two cents.
It´s a market. Like any market the suppliers will charge what the market will pay, it really is as simple as that. There is no right or wrong, there is no Latina underground network to drive prices up. They want more from us because we have more money. If you buy a plane ticket on Southern Winds for a flight to Chaco from their US web site they charge you more than an Argentine buying it here because, wait for it, our money is worth 3 times as much as theirs, they have none and we have a lot. I for one accept the SLIGHT tourist tax. If I could get even one of these girls to pay me 10 pesos for the honor of giving me a BBBJ I would take the money, if a different one offered 20 I would let her go first.
If you don´t like the price pass on the girl. (nicely please) and talk to the next one. Ultimatly WE determine the price by what we pay not what they charge.
The thing I always wonder why nobody talks about is the difference in quality. Since I hope we are all folowing Jackson´s excellent policy about paying after and not before. Why does nobody, with the exception of Saint, talk about paying a premium for what you want. I for one come here to have wicked nasty sex with the kind of women that wouldn´t talk to me in sex prison. (Ok except for ¨that will be another $20.00 if you want another dance") My thing is hot blondes that are tits on a stick. If I find the right one I´ll pay more. Bently's cost more than Pontiacs.
Custer makes a great point, I´ve been coming here since Jan 2001, the scene has changed and changed alot but I´d rather be here than Bangladesh.
Just my opinion, have a blast, play safe.
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Starfe is absolutely correct. There are still great girls in this town. So much for my not wanting to spend more than last month on my "entertainment budget". Kick Stand and I went to China town to eat then decided to go to Rio Cabana. It might not be the best club for excitement but there are still some damn cute girls in there. The girls don't seem excited until you actually invite them over to sit down. After that they are laughing and all lovely dovey. I've never pulled a bad girl out of here.
It was Kick Stand's last night in town before he heads to Rio. We pulled out two cuties. I pulled out a blondie and Kick Stand pulled out the girl who stole Art Vandaly's cellphone a few weeks ago. She immediately recognized me and told me she was ashamed. At first she tried to claim it was an accident and I basically told her, "come on thief..you got caught," and she just put her head in her hands embarrassed. I told her that she should never do anything like that again.
Kick Stand doesn't speak Spanish but he seemed to be connecting well with his girl. We were all having a lot of laughs. I was cracking some jokes and a bunch of the girls there were laughing. There were a lot of girls working and before we left we were the only clients there. Just before we left a big group of Asian dudes walked in as usual.
Very reasonable prices when you consider that the price for your drink, the chicas exit drink and two hours is 187 pesos before tipping the waitress. Anyway, there are still places to go where you won't spend a fortune. My girl just left. Be careful though. She is like the 3rd girl I caught taking my picture with her camera on her cell phone. Generally I wouldn't allow it but now that I live here and I don't have any one to answer to... I kind of don't care. Those of you that are married might be singing a different tune.
No more hobbying here for a while. I am heading to Montevideo on Friday morning with a new friend I made. No romantic interest in her though. I actually might try to hobby one night as some dude emailed me about some good club there. I'll report back what I find out.
P.S. DaddyRulz, great post. I also wonder why no guys bring up the matter of paying for what you are actually attracted to vs. what you can afford then making excuses. I've talked to Andres before about it and asked him what his favorite type is and he admits it's the girls in Madahos type but that it's just too expensive. Let's be honest. All things being equal with price you would rather pull out a girl from Madahos/Black than Hook or the other cheaper clubs. Hotter girls will always command more. No way around it as far as I'm concerned.
