Doctors & Dentists

Thread Starter.

Please also check similar info on Health Insurance Thread.

Best option for regular visits is to sign up for Med/Dental insurance through a local hospital. Both the "Italiano" and "Britanico" offer comprehensive coverage. Prices are about U$S 70-75 per month. This price includes full access to "Outpatient Clinics" which are conviently located throught BAires...

There was a posting on a simlar thread asking for Chiropractor info. If you know of one, pelase search for the thread and reply. =)

As background, I was a former resident and still have all of my immediate family living in the BAires area. We're on phone at least once a week. Can provide additional info if needed... And yes, I use VONAGE as my VoIP provider. 5 cents/minute from US to BAires!!! AT&T can't beat that!

Tengan cuidado! FormerGaucho

I'd rather go for the HMOs such as OSDE, TIM or such.

Even though the Italian and British Hospitals are good, they are located in somewhat cumbersome neighborhoods for visitors (British at Constitución and Italian at 4000 Mitre St, close to Abasto). HMOs have affiliated clinics thoughout the city, many of them in Recoleta / Barrio Norte.

I used to pay ar$240 at OSDE for a basic plan as a single 30something adult.

Hope this helps,

Andres

How does one go about researching and contacting these HMO type medical plans?


Thanks,
Stowe

No idea at all. Internet, perhaps?

I now a couple of them (OSDE, Medicus, Swiss Medical Group, TIM). It's just a matter of finding their websites and research a bit.

Hope this helps,

Andres

Yeah, this is something we all may face while living in BA, getting an implant
here rather than the USA. Today, I got a ballpark price of 3500-4000usd.
This is a calif. price and I would hope BA offers a better deal.

Has anyone had an implant pocedure in BA? Please pm me or give a post on this thread. Do they use anesthesia or other sedatives?

Jackpot

I also need some, anybody that's PM's jackpot about this please copy me in.

Dental work here is much cheaper than USA, but each dentist is different. Two years ago I used a high end guy in Belgrano. Gabriel Meschiany 4788-6545, @ Cuba 1940, 8B. New office, excellent equipment. About half price of USA. I never saw any dental techs - the dentist did all the work himself. It is the material that is expensive. Speaks basic english and will take you as patient for cash only as he works through health insurance for most of his patients. I got two overlay (underlay?) replacements (not crowns which are cheaper) Metal base with porcelin. Good quality. I think it was about 800 dollars total - about 4 visits for each tooth. One was purely cosmetic and I was very pleased with his skills. My girlfriend used a guy downtown, bare office, older equipment but much cheaper, to put a tooth on a metal implant. I also used Jackson's dentist office - Dr. Bolles, Callao 1016, #713 4814-3540 for a cleaning - 25 pesos for exam and 15 pesos for cleaning - how cheap is that!

PS: I was told by my dentist that they cannot use gas here.

Jackpot -

I am just finishing 4 implants, done in a modern office with the latest technologies (believe me, I was ALL over the Internet at first checking it out!)
The cost included bone grafts, which were required as these were upper-jaw implants (I had been advised of this in the US as well!), which stretched out the time frame by several months. One of the implants was a front tooth - a much more elaborate proceedure.
They do not use gas.

The total cost for the four, including crowns, was 9,000 pesos - a little less then the cost of 1 in the US!

David

I've nearly finished a course of 7 implants plus another crown. I was really impressed with the whole procedure and it cost me 7,500 pesos, but everything's much cheaper in Mar del Plata. I've been living here since september and the quality of life here is fine.

My implant candidate is an upper tooth next next to my front teeth. This is a real sensitive area of the mouth as you all know.

Dreading pain, my question is how do they sedate you?
If gas is forbidden, how do the deal with putting you out?

Local oral injections are awful and the after effects put a real damper on lip action. I assume pill sedatives are used but
would like to hear stories from you Argentina dental veterans
on how you dealt with the pain during the operation and post-op.

Thanks for your advice from a dental chicken,

Jackpot

Jackpot

They have these rubber bullets to bite on and soundproof rooms so you don't have to hear the screams of your fellow victims, I mean patients!

Seriously, they ALL only use injected aneasthetics, but the after effects were minimal. They prescribed some pain killers, but narcotics are almost never (perhaps never) given, so I brought some Vicodens from Florida. I didn't really need them, but I was glad to have them!

Really, the whole proceedure (including the bone graft which you will probably need too) was pretty pain free -I don't know what he used for a local but it was VERY effective without leaving me a drooling idiot afterwards.

David

[QUOTE=Capt Dave]I don't know what he used for a local but it was VERY effective without leaving me a drooling idiot afterwards.

[/QUOTE]

I wonder... If was a drooling idiot when I came in, would I be cured?

I've been impressed with much of the dental work I've gotten in Latin America. I got some crown work done in Costa Rica around Christmas, and was 20-25% of what it would cost in the states. Plus no waiting 30 minutes to get in the chair, and having the dentist do everything, even the cleanings is just great.

[QUOTE=Capt Dave]Jackpot -

I am just finishing 4 implants, done in a modern office with the latest technologies (believe me, I was ALL over the Internet at first checking it out!)

The cost included bone grafts, which were required as these were upper-jaw implants (I had been advised of this in the US as well!), which stretched out the time frame by several months. One of the implants was a front tooth - a much more elaborate proceedure.

They do not use gas.

The total cost for the four, including crowns, was 9,000 pesos - a little less then the cost of 1 in the US!

David[/QUOTE]Captain Dave:

Incredible prices on the implants.

I just had my final check up from my dentist before I commit to a plan of action.

The son of a ***** wants to pull all my upper molars out and install implants.

Broke my jaw along wih my teeth many years ago. Now the work is failing.

Your implant dentist still availble? Shit I have been all over the internet and decided BKK is best for dental work. Check out bangkoktonight.com.

First class dental spas! no shit.

Thing is I been wanting to go to EZE most of all.

You think I could have the implants done there and then have the teeth installed here in california. Gonna have to switch dentists here lol or maybe go back to eze for the final teeth installation.

Sorry for the rambling but dam it is such a big deal so I dont know if I am doing the right thing.

Thanks

Rick

Hi,

I just arrived on Saturday from NYC, and I think I developed DVT from my flight. I have extreme discomfort on both calfs that just continues to spread. I wish I could say that I did something athletice to get it, but that was not the case. If anyone knows of a good Doctor to visit please let me know.

[QUOTE=Metkim]Hi,

I just arrived on Saturday from NYC, and I think I developed DVT from my flight. I have extreme discomfort on both calfs that just continues to spread. I wish I could say that I did something athletice to get it, but that was not the case. If anyone knows of a good Doctor to visit please let me know.[/QUOTE]You'd better not delay seeing a doctor. Seek out one of our BsAs resident members like Thomaso, Capt Dave, or even Jackson himself for a recommendation. Or even Roxana or Silvina. Self-diagnosis is no substitute for real medical attention.

[QUOTE=Metkim]Hi,

I just arrived on Saturday from NYC, and I think I developed DVT from my flight. I have extreme discomfort on both calfs that just continues to spread. I wish I could say that I did something athletice to get it, but that was not the case. If anyone knows of a good Doctor to visit please let me know.[/QUOTE]Don't screw around with a GP. Just go to one of the hospitals. I've heard good things about both the Italian Hospital and the German Hospital.

I travel a lot in Asia and elsewhere and I generally get my teeth cleaned when I travel to avoid at least part of the outrageous cost of dental and other medical care in the US. I went to a dental clinic called CEO at Talcahuano 837 [near Cordoba and 9 de Julio, as I remember]]. I think they have other locations.

I seems they do most of their work under the government health plans and a cash paying customer is unusual and a foreigner more so. I'm pleased to report they did an excellent job for a rediculosly low 30 pesos. The cleaning was quite careful and took ½ hour or more.

I had to make an appointment for the next day which I did. When I showed up they were running about an hour late but it was no big deal – portenos are forever late. The place is modern crisp clean friendly and professional. It looked good for more major work but I didn't need any.

Anyone have experience with them?

I had two unfortunate incidents while residing in Argentina that forced me to get medical attention. The first occurred (Jan. 05) while I was at the Sheraton inside Iguazu National Park- after pigging out at an all you can eat Samba show on the Brasilian side, I woke up in the middle of the night with bad food poisoning-threw up minimum of 30 times. This happened on the day I was to fly back to Buenos Aires, so I faced the prospect of dealing with food poisoning on a flight- however a half hour or so before the flight, I asked the airport policemen if there was a doctor in the airport, and he brought me to a closet where two guys in scrubs were playing cards, and they have me an injection of something and I begun to feel better a few hours later. Total cost for doctor's time and medicine: Gratis.

The second incident happened during September 2005 and was a return bout of "intoxicado". This one occurred after eating at Kentucky Pizzeria on the corner of Santa Fe and Godoy Cruz in Palermo- avoid the empanadas, I am sure they were the culprit. Anyway, I knew I needed medical attention so I called up one of the Argentine ladyfriends for a recommendation- she sent me to a private clinic near my apt that was on Marcelo T near 9 de Julio, can't remember the name I could find my invoice if anybody is interested. Anyway, service was good, the attending physician spoke english. Total cost for two hours in ER, supplies, etc. $90 AR

Anybody have an ear, nose and throat doc they can recommend? I have Swiss Medical, and walked down there today, but the girl I talked with spoke zero english. With my castellano, I got some referrals, but I'd rather hear from someone on the board who has a doc they think is good. Sinus problems, arghhhh.

In the doghouse

Went to the Swiss Medical clinic today-Santa Fe 2479. In and out in less than an hour, xrays of sinuses included (which were given to me) Apparently no charge with my plan, though I did pay about 70p for Allegra-D and an antibiotic down the street. In the US with my ex plan there, I am guessing I would have paid $100, or more, for the meds, even with the drug benefit, plus $35 co pay for the MD visit. Fairly painless in all categories. The doc was surprised that I thought they might keep the xrays.

Doggboy,

Perhaps you are beginning to realize what I call the vast superiority of the health system in Argentina. I also have Swiss Medical and have also had sinus problems. In USA, I have to first wait maybe two weeks until there is an appointment available with my "primary care physician" in the trailer park. He will then confirm that I need to see an ENT (thanks, bro!) since my sinuses are fucked up. Note, he enters with clipboard for 20 seconds and never actually looks at me, just a cattle car inspection before saying "go to an ENT" with the bedside manner of a Nazi medical scientist stationed at Auchwitz. Then I wait another few weeks until an ENT that is covered by my "plan" and is in the proper "network/area" has an appointment available. At this point, after waiting a month, perhaps my problem has gone away on its own. If not, I pay out the ass for various exams (cat scan, etc) - don't forget to bring your gold card and first born son to pay for the costs that arent "covered". My "coverage" in USA has always been with a major like Aetna.

Here in Argentina, I go directly to one of various ENT specialty centers in my zone, knowing what specialist I need to see despite having no medical training - me ear hurt, me go to ear medicine man. I like going to the center "Guardias ORLSA" on Cuidad de la Paz 870, which is almost right on the Juramento station of subte line D in Belgrano. They have 3-4 ENTs on call and are open 24/7/365. Never waited more that 20 minutes upon arriving. When sinunitis was suspected, I was sent to a nearby center and given a cat scan / MRI? (probably had to wait 25 minutes for that). The grand total cost of all this was $0.00 pesos, just flash yout Swiss Medical card. Although it may be an intangible, the doctors here seem to truly care about you and dont have an "assembly line" mentality like Ive experienced in USA.

If you're really sick here, you can have a doctor come to your house (I thought this only happened on "Little House on the Prarie" circa 1870). With my plan, I do have to shell out 5 pesos for that luxury though.

If I ever move back to USA, I will maintain my coverage here knowing that if I ever have health issues, I can always return to Argentina and a "real" medical system. As an added benefit, many female doctors here are smokin' hot!

Not quite sure if that last post was an exercise in irony or not. People from all around the world go to the United States to seek medical treatment. I've never heard of anybody going to Argentina for the same. Perhaps it's a good choice if you want to see a shrink to talk out your problems. Buenos Aires has more of those per capita than any other city in the world.

[blue]Hi Hunt99,

Actually, foreigners traveling to Argentina for medical treatment, including cosmetic dentistry, reconstructive dentistry, and plastic surgery, are all growth industries. The consenus is that the medical professions in Argentina are very professional at a much cheaper cost than in Europe or the USA.

Thanks,

Jackson[/blue]

No irony there - OK my comparison to the Auchwitz scientist was made to illustrate a point. My last "primary 'care' provider" in USA reminded me of the drunken "doctor" from the movie "Cannonball Run" - he was a joke. Do you have pertinent experience in both countries on which to base your opinion?

Millions of people worldwide chose to eat at McDonalds everyday, surely more than any restaurant in the world. Does that mean its the best product/service/expertise available? I'm guessing that most people coming to USA for medical treatment are very wealthy? Money does not necessarily correlate with quality. My understanding is that Argentine doctors are highly respected and Ive read about many foreigners, mostly Europeans, coming down to Argentina for medical treatment!

What you say about shrinks per capita here is true and widely known. Apparently there are also more GPs and ENTs just in my neighborhood than in the Lower48. In BsAs I can see one in 30 minutes if necessary, in USA I get - "lets see, we have an opening on July 23" unless I can physically demonstrate imminent death. Once, when visiting a part of the USA that was not part of my tiny network, I was basically told that in order to be attended with my plan it had better be a life & death issue. No pussies with sinus problems or flu symptoms accepted. I finally went to an emergency room at a major hospital there and it was like a zoo, waiting several hours. Here, the going to the "guardia" is a pleasant, efficient, quick experience.

My main point is that there seems to be a huge accessibilty problem in the USA. Ive always had "good" coverage there and still have problems! Id wager that the millions of US citizens who can't afford any coverage have greater accessibility issues than Ive had.

I did visit Mayo Clinic in Arizona once for my sinunitis. It was an exception for USA - I'd say it could pass for the Docthos Center on Santa Fe & Puerreydon, on a good day maybe. Very professional at Mayo. Good thing I made an appointment 9 months in advance and didnt die waiting!

I suppose that many foreigners visiting Argentina might assume that the medical sector here isnt worth a shit based on what theyve seen in other sectors. Ive been quite impressed with it and its doctors and I dont think Im the only one.

Just a note for anyone who has X-Rays (including dental) MRI's, etc.

When you have a follow-up visit or another appointment, bring your pics with you as offices here never keep them on file. When you go back, especially for dental work, they will not do any work without looking at an X-Ray

Couldn't agree more with Moore's assessment of health care in the US. The aggravation factor has multiplied greatly within the past 10 years. I know very few people in the states who wait LESS than an hour to see any specialist, not to mention the time lag between calling for an appointment and actually seeing the doctor. Quality of care also suffers due to providers stuffing their schedules full and giving patients short thrift. Plus, many other problems that would take a post five times this size to address. Certainly no indication of it getting better any time soon. Another reason to stay in BA.

[blue]I can add one observation to charactarize the difference in the approach to medical care between Argentina and the USA.

Here in Argentina was the first time I actually met a dentist while I was still standing on my feet. Here's what I mean: When you visit a dentist in the USA, you are greeted by the dental assistants who get you seated in the chair and prep'ed before the dentist himself, who is moving from room to room seeing the maximum number of patients in a day, comes in, introduces himself and then immediately sticks his instruments in your mouth. After the treatment, he typically exits to go to another room before you even get out of the chair, leaving the dental assistants to do the followup.

When I went to see a dentist here in Argentina, I was stunned when the dentist came out into the waiting room, introduced himself, and then accompanied me back to his office.

Thanks,

Jackson[/blue]

Mongers-

I definetly feel that the nearly-free Argentine health care system is a great idea and I have had good experiences with it during the two instances where I needed medical attention. Most countries in the world have some sort of free / government subsidized health care for their citizens, the United States is the exception.

However, my experience with the health care system in the United States has been carefree and hasslefree in general. Moore I don't know what sort of health insurance you had back in the EEUU, but it sounds like an HMO, which are shitty IMO compared to "traditional plan". I have Blue Cross / Blue Shield, I go to any doctor I want without calling anybody other than the doctor I want to see to make an appointment, and there is no co-pay for doctor visits. There is a prescription card also, any brand name drug costs $5 or less and generics are $1. The insurance company pays 80% of all bills up to $500, and 100% of everything above and beyond that.

A few months before I moved back to Buenos Aires I got LASIK done to correct my nearsightedness. I went to the eye doctor, he examined me, and I had the surgery done two weeks later (the minimum time to stop wearing contact lenses pre-surgery) All easy and hassle free.

There is no doubt that the US health care system is not equitable and many people have no or restricted access to the best medical care, however, I believe that for those who live in the right area and have the right insurance, the US system is on par with the best in the world.

Suerte,

Dirk Diggler

Surely an Argentine doctor is perfectly capable of clearing up a sinus problem, treating that drip, drip, drip infection you picked up who-knows-where, or removing that big mole from your shoulder.

But do you guys want to get a heart bypass operation, cancer treatment, or a knee replacement in Buenos Aires? Hah! You'd better head down the Recoleta cemetery and pick out a plot beforehand!

[blue]Hi Hunt99,

Again, I would disagree with you, especially given that a lot of doctors and surgeons in Argentina have studied and trained in the USA.

Thanks,

Jackson[/blue]

[QUOTE=Dirk Diggler]Mongers-

I definetly feel that the nearly-free Argentine health care system is a great idea and I have had good experiences with it during the two instances where I needed medical attention. Most countries in the world have some sort of free / government subsidized health care for their citizens, the United States is the exception.

However, my experience with the health care system in the United States has been carefree and hasslefree in general. Moore I don't know what sort of health insurance you had back in the EEUU, but it sounds like an HMO, which are shitty IMO compared to "traditional plan". I have Blue Cross / Blue Shield, I go to any doctor I want without calling anybody other than the doctor I want to see to make an appointment, and there is no co-pay for doctor visits. There is a prescription card also, any brand name drug costs $5 or less and generics are $1. The insurance company pays 80% of all bills up to $500, and 100% of everything above and beyond that.

A few months before I moved back to Buenos Aires I got LASIK done to correct my nearsightedness. I went to the eye doctor, he examined me, and I had the surgery done two weeks later (the minimum time to stop wearing contact lenses pre-surgery) All easy and hassle free.

There is no doubt that the US health care system is not equitable and many people have no or restricted access to the best medical care, however, I believe that for those who live in the right area and have the right insurance, the US system is on par with the best in the world.

Suerte,

Dirk Diggler[/QUOTE]Dirk,

You are the big exception to the current rule in the US. Absolutley, if you have a heavy duty non HMO plan, the headaches are much less. WAY less. However, employers are offering fewer and fewer non HMO plans, and the ones being offered are more and more expensive. Sure, I could have had a BC / BS plan as a consultant on a deal offered me by one of my clients, at about $500US a month! That's at 53 and zero family. So yeah, the "convenient" plans are still out there, but more expensive and fewer to pick from. They are going the way of that old timey idea-pensions.

[QUOTE=Hunt99]But do you guys want to get a heart bypass operation, cancer treatment, or a knee replacement in Buenos Aires? Hah! You'd better head down the Recoleta cemetery and pick out a plot beforehand!;)[/QUOTE]What are you basing this on Hunt?

As Jackson stated, many doctors (lawyers too) here studied, trained, etc in USA, which is of course a very highly regarded place for advanced/specialized education. Of course the basic education offered to the general US population sucks balls (semi illiterates graduating high school). Lots of parallels between education/health systems of a country.

Recurring sinunitus, while not cancer, can be fairly serious and sometimes involve serious surgery. I should mention that my ENTs here in Argentina were the ones that finally whipped it with treatments, high tech exams/tools, and medication. Mayo and the rest of the bozos I saw in various states were a waste of time and space. The various ENTs I saw there, excluding the one at Mayo, really didnt seem to give a fuck. When the docs entered I got the feeling "ok you got 3 minutes pal".

[QUOTE=Hunt99]

Surely an Argentine doctor is perfectly capable of clearing up a sinus problem, treating that [I]drip, drip, drip[/i] infection you picked up who-knows-where, or removing that big mole from your shoulder.

[blue]Hi Hunt99

I don't know about Moore's sinus problems but I'd kill for some "drip" right now!

[QUOTE=Moore]What are you basing this on Hunt?

And Jackson is correct, many doctors (lawyers too) here studied, trained, etc in USA, which is of course a very highly regarded place for advanced / specialized education. Of course the basic education offered to the general US population sucks balls (semi illiterates graduating high school) Lots of parallels between education / health systems of a country.

Recurring sinunitus, while not cancer, can be fairly serious and sometimes involve serious surgery. I should mention that my ENTs here in Argentina were the ones that finally whipped it with treatments, high tech exams / tools, and medication. Mayo and the rest of the bozos I saw in various states were a waste of time and space. The various ENTs I saw there, exluding the one at Mayo, really didnt seem to give a fuck. When the docs entered I got the feeling "ok you got 3 minutes pal".[/QUOTE]Again, agreeing with Moore here regarding ENTs in the states. Not to say there haven't been a few decent ones through the years, but the majority are drudging through their mile a minute day with the idealism of med school way back in the rear view. I had a real good one years ago in Virginia who did my deviated septum work (there's a fun time)

Mongers-

I agree with Hunt to a certain extent about not wanting to have very-serious, potential life altering procedures done in Argentina if one could afford to have the same procedure done in the United States. I do not doubt for one minute the training and education of Argentine doctors. What I might doubt is the presence of the most modern, up-to-date equipment and techniques. My aforementioned LASIK eye surgery is a perfect example of this. I definetly could have gotten LASIK preformed in Buenos Aires for a mere fraction of the $4000 USD I paid to get in done in the USA; however, I've only got one set of eyes, and I KNOW that the opthamologist (sp? In the USA is very well compensated and therefore is able to use the most modern and up-to-date equipment available. Based on the medical equipment I see in dentists offices and the state of certain medical facilities I have seen, I am not sure of the presence of ultra modern equipment here.

Suerte,

Dirk Diggler

Having been to dentists, eye doctors, GPs, ENTs here, I'll take a WildAssGuess and say that machinery used in Argentina is about 10 years behind the cutting edge used in USA. But I'd choose an excellent doctor using perfectly maintained 1996 equipment over a half-ass doctor using 2006 tools any day.

With complex medical conditions, I believe that the crucial element of the MDs job is to determine exactly what the problem is and how to best treat it. Knowledge/training must be more important than machinery in most of these cases.

One time an ENT here used an instrument that I thought was quite neat. It was a long, remotecontrol, stringlike tube with a tiny camera on the end that he stuck several inches "up" my nose and took pictures of sinuses, etc. I wouldnt think that its been around forever.

I'm surprised that Mpexy hasnt chimed in here. Most of us dont have any medical training.

One of the reasons that medicine in the US is the MOST expensive in the world (by a factor of 2 or 3) is because it is privatized. There are so many layers and each layer requires paperwork and profits, it is considered much less efficient than government controlled medical-granted not the US govenment, which tends to mis-handle everything.

Both Canada and Englands (both of which are lambasted by politicians here as terrible) public medicine is actually cheaper and rated better then ours based on a UN analysis (now I realize there are some out there that just because it came from the UN, they consider it invalid)

I had an MRI in January and the doctor has billed it to my insurance company 4 times and each time the insurance company rejects the claim because of some very minor error. He is still waiting to get paid.

For an epidural for a neck problem, I have received perhaps 30 bills for the 1 epidural (sent to my insurance company and copied to me) from so many doctors, hospitals, and medical offices, most of whom I did not know I used for the procedure.

I have had to make 3 payments for the same bill because the insurance company claimed they lost the payments. Only later to have to reimburse me for the double overpayments.

In 20 years, medicine in the US will becoming much like a college education-only available to the rich. And that is nothing like any other country.

Yeah, tons of people rush to this country for our medicine. That just shows it is great medicine for the rich of any country. The average US citizen will neer have access to that quality of medicine.

Suerte,

Stowe

Stowe,

I believe in mostly free markets and that they generally make products better and cheaper. What you write affirms that the US med industry has become kind of a shady/corrupt business (enter attorneys?). The lawsuit factor must be a huge cost, though according to Dubya it only accounts for about 3% of the total cost going by memory of the 2004 pres debates. It seems to me that in many countries like Argentina, good medical care is correctly viewed as a right and necessity for all, whereas in USA you're essentially only entitled to it if you can afford the country club membership dues. I'm referrring to mentality and not socialist or pure capitalist systems. The US attitide toward education seems similar, which probably explains why we have masses of ignorant, sick people.

I read an article just a few days ago about a comparison made between US and UK health. US/UK differences have often been attributed to racial/income factors. But this study showed that after adjusting and comparing white US middle class to white UK middle class, UK was much healthier - shockingly so by several measures. The kicker was that even the white UK lower class was healthier than the white US upper class!

If Im not mistaken, there are about 20 countries with life expectancy rates higher than that of the USA and there are urban areas in the US with rates (life, infant mortality) comparable to the those of the worlds poorest nations in Africa. Kind of hard to claim "we're number one!".

Moore-

I think we are in agreement here that in general the USA needs a more equitable health care system and that Argentina's health care system is more than adequate and provides free / almost free medical care to all that need it. However, I find some faulty logic with some of your other arguments.

I firmly believe that education is not only available to rich, white upper middle class and higher US citizens. That may have once been the case, but now it is not. The fact is that in the USA, if you have the intellectual ability, and you exhibited this ability through grades and test scores, you will attend the finest schools regardless of financial status. There are billions of dollars of public and private grants / scholarships / aid available to students of academic merit. If a student is from an underpriveledged or underrepresented group, even more scholarships / grants / aid are available. In addition, academic standards for admission are enormously relaxed at top universities for applicants from underprivledged / underrepresented groups. I understand that it is easy for rich, white, upper middle class students to succeed, however the opportunity exists for everyone, some just have to work harder than others to achieve it.

In terms of health of US citizens versus citizens of other countries, this has everything to do with the disgusting and foolish nature of the US diet and the IMO ridiculous nature of the US pharmaceutical industry, and little to do with the actual medical care available in the US. The food the typical US citizen eats is truly appalling, its like putting 45 octane fuel in the gas tank of a Ferrari requiring 93 octane and expecting it to run smoothly. Synthetic refined Sugars, hydrogenated fats, nitrates, food dye, preservatives, all those things are like poison for the body. If people ate more natural, unprocessed foods (like the rest of the world) they would be much leaner, healthier, and more attractive. In addition, the pharmaceutial industry is to blame for this to some extent. Feel a little off, pop 3 advil, you'll feel better. Hey, why not do it everyday? If US citizens ate correctly, they would not ever feel the need to take pharmaceuticals.

Suerte,

Dirk Diggler

Dirk,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the educational "boosters" like scholarships you refer to don't really become a factor until university level, which is WAY too late. Unless things have changed recently in USA, you're likely going to get a shit public education (primary, secondary, high school) if you live in a low income/tax district regardless of your ability.

I can't disagree with your comments about US health problems. The article I mentioned did not imply that medical care was the root cause of the US/UK health differences. Thing is, the UK "diet" has got to be as bad as USA. As artificial and processed as US food may be, at least it partially qualifies as food.

I have quite a few opinions regarding the general topic of healthcare, especially the state of such in the United States compared to elsewhere. However, I generally refrain from participating in conversations like this simply because like discussions of politics, there is often no right and wrong - simply two camps of people with opinions that will not change because again like politics, there is enough truth on both sides to have reasonably formed those opinions (whether I agree with them or not)

I will merely point out though that often people confuse which issue they are discussing when one compares how "good" healthcare is in the United States versus somewhere else. When conversations like these come up, how "good" healtcare is actually boils down to the completely separate qualifiers of:

A) How "good" the availabilty or accessability to that healthcare system for Non-Elective procedures is for the general population.

B) How "good" the availabilty or accessability to that healthcare system for Elective procedures is for the general population.

C) How "good" the actual quality of care received in a technical sense.

D) How "good" the cost burden is to the patient vs. The state.

I don't want to get trapped into trying to discuss a topic that honestly people really aren't going to change their minds about. So all I'll say as my opinion is that when discussing ANY countries healthcare system, it is possible and even probable that they excel in one or more of these separate qualifiers, but NO country excels in all of them.

So in my opinion, when you, I, or anyone says Country X has a better healthcare system than Country why, what is really being said is that whatever aspect you care about might be better in that country versus the other. Are there countries that rank miserably on all of these areas? Sure. But when conversations come up, I rarely hear United States versus Somalia, it's always between two countries that do legitimately have claim to be "good" in one or more of these areas but not in others. Just my opinion but it only takes just one of these areas to not be "good" for someone to legitimately say someone else's system is better.

For example, take Canada and the United States. I really don't want to stir up any pro-Canadians here but an objective reality is that one reason Canada excels at the ability to offer near 100% availabilty to Non-Elective healthcare is because their availability and access to Elective healthcare is miserable compared to the grand-daddy of them all - the United States. Is this right, wrong? I'm not going there - we'd then be discussing the worth of differing political systems and social values. Just as the cost basis to the patient for Non-Elective Healtcare is immensely favorable on the general average in Canada vs. The United States. But then it goes into the vortex of discussing whether the state supporting that cost basis, and the means they need to implement to support it, e. G. Higher taxes, is "good" or not.

I'm just saying that if you're a person wanting say an elective MRI done to avoid a more invasive procedure (an example of a highly useful procedure in a medical sense) or a non-major obesity related abdominoplasty because frankly you just want to look good (an example of a procedure that frankly doesn't have much medical value) and told you have to wait two years under the Canadian system, it's not unreasonable for that person to think the United States has a much "better" system. A single major metropolitan area in the United States has more MRI machines and access to that procedural time than any entire province of Canada.

However, equally valid is the reverse of this - if you're son needs a certain specialized procedure but you're HMO tells you that is 'not covered', what the hell do you care how grand the elective system is in the United States? If you're lucky enough to be Canadian in this case, you'd be thanking your lucky stars you're in Canada.

Last couple of completely random order thoughts -

- it's not perfect, but no public healthcare system or hospital is allowed to refuse treatment for medically necessary treatment based on the ability to pay in the United States. The issue is availability of bedspace and limited county resources, not whether that access is not technically there for all. Next time you're in Los Angeles, not to stir up an immigration Pro or Not discussion here, but ask any healthcare professional there what illegal immigration does to the availability of public services that were originally sized and factored for the legal citizen population.

- Doctors in the United States undergo a fairly bizarre transition which admittedly is a hot topic even within the medical community. During medical school training, rotations, and residency - a significant period for some up to 11 years - doctors in the United States are trained that medical decisions come first. In short, you run every single test and procedure to accurately diagnose and treat the patient (which also means you ignore the useless ones) This teaching hospital system basically ensures the doctor is well trained, but in my opinion also reinforces the more socially "good" value of putting patient welfare in the hands of the actually trained to make that call - the doctor. However, the minute you leave residency and enter private practice - either solo, in a privatized group or hopspital, HMO, Medical Group - the legal profession takes over. You now run tests you completely don't think under that specific situation and patient are even called for but you do, because to not run them means huge liability risk if you're ever sued. But you also frequently don't run various tests because some non-medical professional tells you it's not 'policy' or 'covered' or would incur great legal liability even if you're right.

-Look into private Medical Groups. It's a hybrid between an HMO type system and PPO system. You can choose a main GP, but you don't need to go through that GP, can choose or elect specialist referal at will, and essentially within that group can hop to any doctor you want. Basically, it's the freedom of a PPO private care system but technically listed under HMO status with most healtcare insurers so that you can elect to take that group as your "HMO" network.

- Yes, legal issues and liability coverage is a huge factor for any doctor or medical group / hospital, both in terms of negatively influencing healthcare decisions as well as the actual costs, direct (malpractice insurance) and indirect (too long to list but indirect liability coverage can cost as much or more than the actual malpractice premiums) President Dubya can quote whatever he wants - the total cost is way the hell more than 3%. Perhaps when you factor an entire large system budget, say like Los Angeles' County hospitals, it's 3% of that multi-billion budget because that bloated budget also includes aggregate spending for social services, admin, etc. But on the real end of the stick - you're average small to mid-size clinic, group, or independent physicians collective that serves the majority of real patients every year, it's a killer.