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[QUOTE=BundaLover]Half the store fronts in Palermo now appeared to be real estate offices. 2 years ago they were trendy retail. Correction---- one year ago. Now one can get tee shirts, surfing gear, camping gear, womans clothes, cotton clothes like the crap they sell on Florida St. Tennis shoes in all the boring redundant stores that have purchased old houses around the prision playground--- ooops I guess it used to be serrano plaza but now it looks like a low security play area. So everybody is a real estate expert with pricing that is starting to look like California on a sq. Ft. Basis. The advertisements are in English in some cases.
I had 2 steaks in Buenos Aires last week and both of them were overcooked. 2 for 2. I can't believe it. Is it due to the fact that the town was dead and maybe even the cooks were on vacation?
Subway still a good deal.
La Cabberra.
I refuse to eat at my favorite restraunt due to their cover charge of 9 fucking pesos. Not for bread or anything but just to sit there. I had detailed conversation with owner and told him he can have his 9 pesos for me to sit outside in on the street with no music, no air con, no appitizers, while I subsidize his clients inside OR I eat elsewhere and take my local friends to other restraunts. He told me he can't stay in business if he doesnt charge. I told him to raise his prices then. The place had not ONE argentine in it. All white faced English and tourists. ------ Still the best fucking parrilla in BsAs. What am I to do?
Hotel actually raised price after christmas by 10% in Feb. Of 08 for no reason. Leather goods store actually raised price in Feb. Compared to Xmas of 2007. They don't do sale price, everything is list.
I'm seeing wine for 300 and 400 US dollars on M. T. De Alvear x Santa Fe.
Can someone explain who the hell is buying this?[/QUOTE]Probally wealthy Argentines and wealthy foreigners on a holiday.
I think you easily spend 4000 dollar for a one month holiday in Argentina (Perito Moreno, BA, beach) soon enough it will become to expensive and you will see a decline in foreign arrivals.
P. S. In the tourist areas you always pay a cubierto, probally anywhere between 4 and 10 peso. You need to go to non-tourist spots to pay less cubierto
About 3 years ago there was no cubierto, period. I was charged 4 pesos for "table cloth service" at another place in Palermo. Correct me if I'm wrong but the waiters do not get this money. It goes directly to the owner. I am used to paying a cover for those places that bring bread and some olive oil and one can either accept it or wave it off. But charging for the pleasure of spending money in their establishment? FUCK THEM. I really don't care about the 1 or 3 US dollars its the attitude.
Guys declare war on this bullshit. When you enter a restruant speak to the guy at the register and declare that your party will not pay for the pleasure of spending money. Let everybody in the place hear us. If they refuse WALK out. Viva la revolution!
The cubierto thing yanks my chain as well. I've had some success avoiding it by eating at the bar instead of a table in some places such as El Establo, La Alliance and Matias Downtown. Others such as Temple Irish bar and Filo still charge the cubierto at the bar. Never one at Kansas, El Alamo, and Bullers to name a few. If one is included it's always noted on the menu somewhere and at times I find my discovery of it too late.
My thought here is that it's a way for ownership to avoid paying the value added tax on maybe 10-15 percent of the average per person check as the practice is essentially that of giving the patron two checks, one taxable the other not.
[QUOTE=BundaLover]About 3 years ago there was no cubierto, period. [/QUOTE]There has been always cubierto, and let me add not only in Argentina but it's also a common in Uruguay.
My theory it's the cubierto is not to avoid taxes: because the bill includes the cubierto, so you are paying the included IVA (VAT: Value Added Tax) on the whole bill.
Cubierto it's a strategy to keep the bife de chorizo for an attractive price while in the overall you are paying an extra 4 pesos for it.
It's the way the things are in Argentina and you may like it or not, but it's the way it is.
In the US, prices are + tax, taxes for end consumer it's a sales tax, different than the IVA way to see the tax. Some can consider it fair and some would consider it unfair. I consider fair the tax over the profit rather than the tax over the sale of a product that can even produce loses to the seller. So I see a reason for determinating the tax it's a complete different thing, however, we always must pay the taxes one way or another.
In Argentina all prices to final consumer has the tax included, so every price seems to be less competitive.
The thing at the end it's not about if they charge the cubierto or not, for the first time I see a good point on Redondo's posts: the food court does not charges the cubierto, but what is that? The food court it's food only, and there is no charm on it, but having dinner at a restaurant with waiter, service has more charm, more style, and as a matter of fact the thing it's about if you enjoyed it or not and if the bottom line worth it or not.
Just my point of view.
My impression (and that's a subjective feeling, not backed by any statistics) is that in Argentina the cubierto thing is something that got widespread during the last 2 years. I don't remember it from earlier - this may be because it did not exist, or because it was just a peso or 1,50, and I did not realize it. Today, in many places it is 5 or 6 peaos, and I do realize that.
It is known in some countries - very common for example in Italy, sometimes (however seldom these days) France and Spain, unknown all over northern Europe. The italian name - pane e coperto - shows better what it's intention is: to cover the bread that always is on the table, and the laundry costs for a freshly set table.
And in that sense I accept it: if I get a nicely set table, with fresh tablecloth and napkins, bread, a nice ambiance - ok, better pay the costs involved directly instead of when eating a 3 course meal with a good bottle of wine subsidizing the guy who just orders a pizza and a coke. On the other hand, charging a cubierto at a place where they give you paper napkins on a bare table is just plain ripoff, and one should refuse paying, whith the words "what's that for?".
2 centavos (sin cubierto) de.
El Alemán
[QUOTE=BundaLover]But charging for the pleasure of spending money in their establishment? FUCK THEM. I really don't care about the 1 or 3 US dollars its the attitude.
Guys declare war on this bullshit. When you enter a restruant speak to the guy at the register and declare that your party will not pay for the pleasure of spending money. Let everybody in the place hear us. If they refuse WALK out. Viva la revolution![/QUOTE][blue]Not wishing to be in the position of defending the cubierto, but I wonder if you would apply the same evaluation when entering a taxi? Think about it, there's a charge just for getting in the taxi, before you've even gone one meter. Would some of you advocate telling the taxi driver "[i]I'm not paying for the privilege of getting in your taxi, so if you don't reduce the fare to zero and only charge me for the distance we're going to travel, then I'm going to get out and use another taxi[/i]"?
Thanks,
Jackson[/blue]
[QUOTE=Jackson][blue] Think about it, there's a charge just for getting in the taxi, before you've even gone one meter.
Thanks,
Jackson[/blue][/QUOTE]Actuall the "drop" charge in a taxi is an advance payment for a distance to be traveled. The meter doesn't advance until that distance-or a set time has elapsed- has been traveled. Call it a pay-in-advance 'consumption charge' as does one of our favorite watering holes.
[QUOTE=Hound]Actuall the "drop" charge in a taxi is an advance payment for a distance to be traveled. The meter doesn't advance until that distance-or a set time has elapsed- has been traveled. Call it a pay-in-advance 'consumption charge' as does one of our favorite watering holes.[/QUOTE]No, at least in Buenos Aires, the fee it's currently 3.10 pesos. So the next time the meter changes (after 200 meters) the meter will charge 0,26 cents then 0,26 cents each 200 meters. Jackson's point of view it's accurate: the cab charges a fee for the use of the taxi, and the concept is similar to the cover tray charge in some restaurants.
The idea of the drop charge in a taxi is probably that the cabby spends about the same "idle" time between 2 trips and time used to get his passengers and their luggage in and out, no matter if these trips are just down 2 blocks or to Ezeiza. Otherwise, you might get asked in advance where you want to go, and refused service if it is only a short trip.
And about the cobierto, as said before I think it is ok if there is a certain service related to it.
[QUOTE=MCSE]No, at least in Buenos Aires, the fee it's currently 3.10 pesos. So the next time the meter changes (after 200 meters) the meter will charge 0,26 cents then 0,26 cents each 200 meters. Jackson's point of view it's accurate: the cab charges a fee for the use of the taxi, and the concept is similar to the cover tray charge in some restaurants.[/QUOTE]Actually the increase is 10% of the flag fee. So at the moment that means 0.31 per 200m. The 0.26 is long gone. (When the flag fee was still 2.60)
I consider the cubierto as a hidden "tipping required" policy. I am amazed sometimes by the tip Argentinians leave. A bill of over 100 pesos they easily leave a tip of a few pesos at the most. (Sometimes only the coins of their change.
I asked in a restaurant once what the cubierto was. The answer was it was meant for the bread etc on the table. So my reaction was that it only has to be charged once per table, and not once per person. Then it got quiet.
It is just a "forced" tip.
[QUOTE=Seaman]Actually the increase is 10% of the flag fee. So at the moment that means 0.31 per 200m. The 0.26 is long gone. (When the flag fee was still 2.60)[/QUOTE]Yeah, that makes sense (the 10% of the flag) my ignorance on the current fare it's the proof that I no longer see the meter. I just see the total (I used to control in specific) but no more. I know the trip from las canitas to san telmo may not be more than 20 pesos, and no more than 15 to oblelisco, and no more than 10 from obelisco to san telmo, and no more than 11 from recoleta to baez and chenaut, if it's more I argue and generally the driver recognizes it by accepting the fare I'm used to pay.
[QUOTE=Seaman]I consider the cubierto as a hidden "tipping required" policy. I am amazed sometimes by the tip Argentinians leave. A bill of over 100 pesos they easily leave a tip of a few pesos at the most. (Sometimes only the coins of their change.
It is just a "forced" tip.[/QUOTE]This could be that, or just a general charge. The restaurants pay the waiters a salary, so the tray fee may contribute to pay their salaries. By the way, I consider more unfair than the service charge the extreme overprice on a bottle of wine that I can buy just around the corner for 15 pesos and at the restaurant it's charged for 45. Examples: Lurton, San Telmo (10 pesos and mostly charged 25 / 28) xero, and etc.
It used to be a restaurant no longer in business who charged a fee (6 pesos) for opening the bottle that you could bring or buy at the store next door.
Not Taxies.
Cubierto is cheap in Buenos Aires.
Seaman, the 15% US Americans use to tip is the exception, not the rule in the world. In most countries of the world waiters get a salary, and the tips are just the icing on the cake, not the waiter's main income. In many European countries it is also customary to round up to some even amount, leaving something between 5 and 10%.
If in Germany I get a bill of, say, €72,80, the witer is a lucky guy. With a bill of 76,70 it's not his day. In both cases, I round up to 80. About the same here in Argentina.
El Aleman;
Since I am also an European I have a slightly different view on the tipping too.
What I do is give the waiter about 10% , always rounded off to a nice round figure.
The main difference between here and Europe is the fact that you also mention, the waiter in Europe gets a decent salary from his / her employer. The salary paid here takes into consideration the possible tip in a lot of places. I talked to several (ex) waiters about this, and it is the accepted way. It is not as bad as in the US where the waiters are working for the tips, since the salary is way too low to survive on.
So that is why I normally try to stick to the approx. 10% tip, but I am still surprised about the tipping of the Argentinians.
You are right, I also noticed that Argentineans are usually rather tight. I have several times been in the company of local girlfriends, who when seeing my tips asked me "sos loco?" and made me take some of it back.
One difference to my tipping habit back home, however, exists: Here I often snatch the coins and 2 and / or 5 peso notes and leave 10's or a 20 - In Argentina, one is always short of change!
And I usually tip on the high side with small bills, and a bit lower if it was expensive, especially if there have been items like premium wine that flush a lot into the pocket of the owner while causing only moderate work to the waiter.
[QUOTE=Jackson][blue]Not wishing to be in the position of defending the cubierto, but I wonder if you would apply the same evaluation when entering a taxi? Think about it, there's a charge just for getting in the taxi, before you've even gone one meter. Would some of you advocate telling the taxi driver "[I]I'm not paying for the privilege of getting in your taxi, so if you don't reduce the fare to zero and only charge me for the distance we're going to travel, then I'm going to get out and use another taxi[/i]"?
Thanks,
Jackson[/blue][/QUOTE]That's an interesting and valid point. I need to think about this one for awhile.
On cubiertos, I had a discussion with one of the waiters (Cesar, if I remember correctly) in Exedra a month or two ago on cubiertos and asked him outright if waiters received any of the fee. He chuckled and told me absolutely not.
What he did tell me was that cubiertos were started in the time of Peron as a means of ensuring that the service workers such as waiters, dish washers, et al, made sufficient money on top of their salary, that the owners may not pay enough but cubiertos could be thought of as a forced tip to add on top of the bill that caused the clients to actually foot part of the workers' salaries.
According to the waiter, over time the owners quit sharing the cubierto with the staff but the cubierto never disappeared from la cuenta.
I have no idea whether or not this is accurate. I did a quick search on the internet to try to find something to back this up, but didn't encounter anything.
Whatever the origin, since the cubierto is in probably 80-90% of the restaurants here, I don't know that boycotting it by a small number of foreigners is going to do much good and if it didn't exist, it would certainly be embedded in the price as overhead.
Do most of you leave a tip on top of the cubierto? I usually leave a little over a dollar for good service(mid range cafe).
I ate at quite a few places in the centro that did not charge a cubierto. Once you get near the triangle they get harder to find.
I had one waiter drill me about cubierto not being a tip before I even sat down. He pissed me off so much all I left him was the cubierto. Otherwise I am happy to leave a tip.
The cubierto is not a tip. It covers the bread or other snacks on the table.
[QUOTE=Artisttyp]Do most of you leave a tip on top of the cubierto? I usually leave a little over a dollar for good service (mid range cafe)
I ate at quite a few places in the centro that did not charge a cubierto. Once you get near the triangle they get harder to find.
I had one waiter drill me about cubierto not being a tip before I even sat down. He pissed me off so much all I left him was the cubierto. Otherwise I am happy to leave a tip.[/QUOTE]
Artisttyp, the cubierto is not a tip, the guy was right. Please see earlier in this thread - it is ok to leave a tip, but not the amount you are used to from the states.
And if a waiter behaves like that, I think the best would be to leave the place, maybe after giving a hint to the owner.
[QUOTE=Jaimito Cartero]The cubierto is not a tip. It covers the bread or other snacks on the table.[/QUOTE][blue]And the cleaning of the silverware, plates, glasses, tablecloths, napkins, plus the purchase of items like salt, pepper, oil, vinegar, toothpicks and other costs incurred by you using table space and for which they recover by charging a flat fee, said costs being independent of the costs of buying, cooking and serving food and drinks, for which they charge you separately as itemized on the menu.
Thanks,
Jackson[/blue]
Cubierto was never meant as a tip system. It has always been as Jackson says to cover the costs of what's on the table. Cubierto means silverware. It had been dropped for many years but it seems now as the restaurants are full once again it has made a reappearance. (Kill the goose of the golden egg)
What Cesar meant by the tip system incorporated during the Peron government was "Laudo" this was a percentage added to the bill so that the tips were evenly distributed amongst waiters, dishwashers, maids at hotels, etc etc etc. This was discontinued in the late 60's early 70's where the restaurants would have big signs saying "Laudo No Incluido" which meant you had to tip the waiter individually.
So if I understand the logic of the arguement there should be a separate cubierto II for the electricty bill, the gas bill, the telephone bill as these items are not coverred by the food items or the cubierto.
I'm going to seek out places that have toilet paper dispensers with coin operation becuase I feel so fucking guilty. Hey I bet the fucking restraunts owners feel really really guilty about 200% mark-up on beer and wine.
I'll bring my own nakins tableware next trip and tell them there can't be any cubierto as I brought my own. I'll make a little paper plate and plastic silverware kit. I'm going to go around the restraunt and give them away. Then when someone enters and sit down I'll give then a kit too. Maybe we can start a silverware business here. Get cute girls to sell the set up in all the restraunts? After all its an optional item. Better yet. Serve it without the plate. Just dump it on the table and I'll use my plastic silverware.
I swear I'm not going to pay any more fucking bullshit fees.
ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Amazing there wasnt any cubierto back in 2004, 2005 except when they actually served some stale bread. I guess these items were 'free' then but suddenly they are not 'free'?
So the restaurant is training us to think that silverware is an extra?
We are being brainwashed that this is extra?
Funny how 300 million Americans and 250 million Brasilians can eat in restaurants without this advanced training shoved up our asses.
Funny how Mexicans can live without this system. All those restraunt owners must be losing money.
9 pesos at Caberra for NADA. You can buy a fucking complete lunch for 13 pesos!
Bunda:
I understand your point of view and it's valid, because the restaurant business core it's to put together the team skills, plus machines and goods to serve food; transform plain greens and meat into a nice dish, and of course, the silvery it's just another item. However, in Buenos Aires they will add this fee and the only way to avoid it it's not going no more to the restaurants. Lastnight I went to Cala pizza, and they charged me 2.50 for the servicio de mesa, and there was no bread, no table tray, but after all dinner was ok, and I know that if for any reason the servicio de mesa became forbidden, they would increase the food and the drinks prices.
[QUOTE=BundaLover]So if I understand the logic of the argument there should be a separate cubierto II for the electricity bill, the gas bill, the telephone bill as these items are not coverred by the food items or the cubierto.[/QUOTE][blue]BundaLover,
Once again I find myself defending the cubierto when I don't really favor the system, but in your example above you are confusing fixed costs with variable costs.
The restaurant's utility bills are "fixed costs" that are going to be there and at approximately the same cost regardless of the number of customers they serve. This is the cost of opening the doors for business, and is an overhead expense which is recovered in the general markup of the food they serve.
The costs covered by the cubierto (already enumerated herein) are not fixed costs, they are variable costs because they are directly related to the number of individual customers. This cost is recovered by the cubierto charge.
Think of it like this: If they opened their doors for business and had no customers, they would still have utility bills, but they wouldn't have any costs for the things covered by the cubierto (already enumerated herein)
One of the dynamics of the the information age is business's general trend towards revising their pricing structures by breaking down their costs and charging customers according to the services they've utilized. For example, 50 years ago banks didn't pay any interest on your funds, but they also didn't charge you to maintain a checking account. Now, with the capabilities afforded them by computerization, they now credit you with interest but also charge you for each check you write.
One further note: In my examples of the variable costs which they are attempting to recover via the cubierto, I was very careful to state that the cubierto was for [i]cleaning[/i] the silverware, plates, etc. and not for their original purchase, which would be a capitalized cost. I only make this point in response to your statement to the effect that you were not going to "pay" for the silverware. In fact, you are not paying them for the silverware, you are paying them for the cost of cleaning it after you are through with your meal. Of course, if you furnished your own napkins and silverware, then you would have the pleasure of cleaning them yourself.
In the end, there are two observations:
1. It's all about competition, and I applaude your initiative of avoiding places that charge a cubierto. Perhaps you will start a trend and turn the tide against the cubierto charge, which brings me to my second observation:
2. All restaurants have these cubierto costs, and the customer is going to pay for these costs, one way or another.
Thanks,
Jackson[/blue]
Some private apartments will extra charge you for the condoms when you don't bring your own, used to be 1 peso each one, can we call it "servicio de cubierto" too?
[blue]Greetings Everyone,
FYI, the cubierto at Cabaña Las Lilas is now [b]$20 fucking pesos a person[/b].
Cocksuckers!
(Exon: Please note the correct usage of the word)
Here's my accompanying post.
[url]http://www.argentinaprivate.com/forum/showthread.php?p=381350#post381350[/url]
Thanks,
Jackson[/blue]
You can still find places that you can eat your fill for 20 pesos! Yep - Cocksuckers is the correct word.
Some people who work in my office have come up with a list showing most of the restaurants in microcentro that do not charge cubierto. With their meager salary, can't really blame them if they have resorted to coming up with such a list. Their rationale is that it all adds up since they eat their lunch everyday in restaurants. Come to think of it they have a point: AP 3 per day x 5 days X 4 weeks = P 60 which is the about the cost of two lunches or for me a half hour massage session.
Che, Santi! Come here and give me a photocopy of that list.
[QUOTE=Jackson][blue]Greetings Everyone,
FYI, the cubierto at Cabaña Las Lilas is now [b]$20 fucking pesos a person[/b].
Cocksuckers!
(Exon: Please note the correct usage of the word)
Here's my accompanying post.
[url]http://www.argentinaprivate.com/forum/showthread.php?p=381350#post381350[/url]
Thanks,
Jackson[/blue][/QUOTE]Jackson,
Under that circumstance, which you describe above, the term "Dirty MotherFuckers" can also be used to denote that type of userious misconduct.
Exon
20 pesos? I almost created an international incident with a 9 peso cubierto. This is really interesting. I guess the market will determine if this continues. Why not 50 pesos? When does this end? Will the cubierto cost more than the food? What if one just wanted to have dessert there?
[QUOTE=BundaLover]20 pesos? I almost created an international incident with a 9 peso cubierto. This is really interesting. I guess the market will determine if this continues. Why not 50 pesos? When does this end? Will the cubierto cost more than the food? What if one just wanted to have dessert there?[/QUOTE]What I have noticed is that if you tell them that you are not eating, and order a coffee or something, they do not change the cubierto. You can also order a dessert, side dish, like French fries or a sandwich with no cubierto.
You have to tell them right away, I am not eating. If you order any of the main dishes on the menu, then they hit you with the cubierto. You know if you are going to be hit with the cubierto, when they bring you bread and side dishes.
A 20-peso cubierto is really high. They must bring you some expensive side dishes for that price, or people will stop going.