Didn't really know what to expect from a recent first time excursion to Argentina and also did not realize that it is a major destination for sexual tourism where hustlers solicit sexual services at every street corner.
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Didn't really know what to expect from a recent first time excursion to Argentina and also did not realize that it is a major destination for sexual tourism where hustlers solicit sexual services at every street corner.
Goblin:
As an Argentinian who live (d) in North America, it is positively true that Argentinian girls are much more "human" than women raised north of the border.
However, you didn't experience a truly "ordinary, everyday life" experience with an Argentinian woman. It happened inside a vacation frame and, at the start, with money transactions involved. And, last but not least, with an expiration date.
Your girl may or may not have been simulating. What it is certain is that a limited timeframe for a laid-back experience is far from the everyday reality of a couple dealing with typical problems of Argentinian families (meeting both ends of the month, workplace harrassment, shifting expectactions, etc)
Also, human beings get used to good things very fast, giving them from granted and seeking for more. What is marvelous today may boring and not enough tomorrow.
Maybe depressing, but real.
Hope this helps,
Andres
Thanks for your input. I suppose however that this would apply even in a North American relationship situation when the pressures of everyday life are brought to bear.
It seems to me that life is more difficult in Argentina at least from an economic perspective but the people appear to be happier in their poverty than North Americans in their wealth.
From my yet limited perspective there appears to be less mental illness, drug abuse, or depression among all levels of society in Argentina regardless of the current conditions there.
A North American woman will eventually attack you regardless of what you provide for her and stab at you from the very lap of luxury you have created for them.
I'm thinking that it might be easier for a North American male with good finances to work through the difficulties of Argentinian life with an Argentinian female than with some North American warhog in his own country.
Although from what I am reading in other posts in this forum is that the women of Argentina are not as reliable, are more fickile, and less organized than American women. It also appears they lack focus. This true?
Well if they are at least family oriented then I suppose they will also be oriented towards you if you were to become part of their family.
Goblin
[QUOTE=Goblin]Thanks for your input. I suppose however that this would apply even in a North American relationship situation when the pressures of everyday life are brought to bear.
It seems to me that life is more difficult in Argentina at least from an economic perspective but the people appear to be happier in their poverty than North Americans in their wealth.
From my yet limited perspective there appears to be less mental illness, drug abuse, or depression among all levels of society in Argentina regardless of the current conditions there.
A North American woman will eventually attack you regardless of what you provide for her and stab at you from the very lap of luxury you have created for them.
I'm thinking that it might be easier for a North American male with good finances to work through the difficulties of Argentinian life with an Argentinian female than with some North American warhog in his own country.
Although from what I am reading in other posts in this forum is that the women of Argentina are not as reliable, are more fickile, and less organized than American women. It also appears they lack focus. This true?
Well if they are at least family oriented then I suppose they will also be oriented towards you if you were to become part of their family.
Goblin[/QUOTE]Goblin:
Basically, what you say is right. My experience from both sides is that Argentinians are less prone to drugs and alcohol despite the loose control performed by the police. Also, teenage suicide is more common in the US than in Argentina.
In any case, remember that, as a foreigner, you will have to offset the lack of knowledge of the country and its customs to retain a girlfriend. Argentine girlfriends expect local guys to be well groomed, aknowledgeable of many fine issues (wine, gastronomy, or music) and have a great taste and class related to clothing. A girlfriend would like to be proud of presenting you to their female friends.
Girls reported on this website work mainly on P4P, not a highly seeked profession and far from representing the typical Argentine woman. In average, the local girl has a clear idea of what she wants, is very reliable and organized. If she succeeds in getting what she wants, is another issue.
Hope this helps,
Andres
Thank you for replying again.
As a foreigner it is easy to get the wrong impression about Argentine women when you are confronted with nothing but so many P4P's immediately upon your arrival.
However there must be a disproportionate number of working girls in BA because other cities in the US with similar demographics do not have such a large sex industry.
I also heard that both wages and career opportunities are limited for women and that a waitress may only make up to 20 to 50 pesos a night for example while a waitress in the US can support herself and an education if she plays her cards right. Is this true? 20 to 50 pesos?
It also seems again from my very limited perspective that P4P's are more accepted in Argentina and less frowned upon by the general public.
As for the cultural styles, an American would definately be at a disadvantage there, I have a European background but that is still something I would have to adjust to.
Shorts seem to be a definate no no in Argentina. Anyway that would probably be easy to get around in comparison to the language barrier or the ideological and phylosophical differences.
Are most women in Argentina housewives or do they seek careers? What is the proportion of men to women.
Final question, what is the cost of obtaining a passport in Argentina if you are a citizen of that country?
Goblin
Goblin.
I don't think you are naive. The exact same happened to me on my last trip.
I was there about a month ago and I am still in contact with the girl today. I am sincerely hoping that we stay in touch until I am there again in May.
I was pretty skeptical at first but am really surprised to find out that she came through with all her promises to remain in touch with me once I returned home. I spent 5 of 7 nights with her. And I knew she wasnt faking her feelings for me when she started meeting me outside of the boliche. Unlike you we did not have hours of tears upon my depature, but we did spend quite a bit of time alone and it very similar to saying goodbye to a real girlfriend. GFE was also an understatement for me as she wasn't really faking anything.
I also realize that this is a very pretty girl, and there are many attractive men in argentina. So why is she that interested in me? Not that I'm ugly. But this girl is from a poor background in the provincias and I have money and I know that this is a major component of it. So while I have no problem with giving her "gifts" while I am there, I do have limits. I won't spend more on her than I would with any other hooker. On the other hand, the service she provides to me is so good that it is worth it in my opinion. My only advice to you is. Just be cautious. Don't get pussy whipped and then get suckered into giving her large sums of money. You hear too many stories of guys falling in love with hookers and getting dumped as soon as the girl doesn't need the guy anymore. These girls are very talented at manipluating feelings of affection, so I say enjoy it, just don't become a sucker. Also, don't listen to the guys that will post that it isn't possible to have real genuine feelings with a hooker. I was in your shoes and I know it is possible. And they are just a bunch of jaded assholes.
And my future plans with her have nothing to do with a normal relationship. I plan to have fun with her, perhaps spend a lot of time with her rather than frequenting the boliches, and leave it at that. I think it would be a little stupid on my part to have expectations for a normal relationship. I suggest you nip those types of thoughts now if you are having them. So enjoy the genuine connection but just do not start getting serious about her. From everything I've heard, it's a bad idea to bring foreign women into the USA to marry them. They seem to just evolve into typical AW's. And. Do you plan to live in Argentina? Probably not. So exactly what type of serioius relationship could realistically occur even if you wanted it to?
So in conclusion, just remember that a big reason she probably likes you is because you're a rich gringo. Just don't let her use that against you in the long run.
Relationships between people with different socio-economic backgrounds are hard. Relationships between people from different cultures are even harder. But then almost all worthwhile relationships involve risks and hard work.
That's not a license to be either blind or stupid but you are the only one here that knows if the reward is worth the risk. The percentages might be against you but probability is not certainty. Just remember that hope is not a plan and that a relationship based on your money and her economic need is unlikely to be the basis of anything lasting.
Suerte!
[QUOTE=Goblin]Thank you for replying again.
As a foreigner it is easy to get the wrong impression about Argentine women when you are confronted with nothing but so many P4P's immediately upon your arrival.
However there must be a disproportionate number of working girls in BA because other cities in the US with similar demographics do not have such a large sex industry.
I also heard that both wages and career opportunities are limited for women and that a waitress may only make up to 20 to 50 pesos a night for example while a waitress in the US can support herself and an education if she plays her cards right. Is this true? 20 to 50 pesos?
It also seems again from my very limited perspective that P4P's are more accepted in Argentina and less frowned upon by the general public.
As for the cultural styles, an American would definately be at a disadvantage there, I have a European background but that is still something I would have to adjust to.
Shorts seem to be a definate no no in Argentina. Anyway that would probably be easy to get around in comparison to the language barrier or the ideological and phylosophical differences.
Are most women in Argentina housewives or do they seek careers? What is the proportion of men to women.
Final question, what is the cost of obtaining a passport in Argentina if you are a citizen of that country?
Goblin[/QUOTE]Goblin:
Most salaries (either for men or women) range between ARS 400 and ARS 1000. Divide that by 20 and you'll have the 20-50 daily salary range.
However, don't let these numbers fool you. In Buenos Aires, most people at their 20s (even at their early 30s) live with their parents, and public university doesn't require tuition, so even if you made ARS 400, you can support yourself and your studies since you only need money for some food, clothes, fun and transportation.
Your question about women who seek careers or staying at home is tricky, because it depends on the social class and family culture. The clear trend for middle and upper-middle class women is that they want to seek their own career. They are a clear majority at Medical (8 female to 1 male) and Psychology (the extreme: 47 to 1! Schools and they make up to 50% at Engineering school of UBA.
Proportion of women to men are roughly 50.7 to 49.3 or such, but that number is misleading. Many woman coming from middle-class families of the provinces settle in BA once they finish their careers, so BA may have a much higher proportion of lonely women then the whole country.
Last time I renewed my passport, it costed me ARS 130 (2002)
Hope this helps,
Andres
Hello Andres.
The education statistics are really fascinating to me, why are women taking more of an interest in education than men? This is puzzling. Does that mean women of the middle and upper class in Argentina are taking a leadership role in raising their families while men care only about themselves?
How do the men of argentina typicall treat a woman, what is their attitude towards them and what is the attitude of women towards argentinian men?
On the salary side of things considering the cost of living it would be possible to support yourself on this kind of salary but if you wanted to support a family with children well that would be next to impossible. So a single woman without an education supporting several kids on her own would be in big big trouble.
Even 1000 ARS is only about $350.00 US dollars a month. Good crap I says, that is not good enough as an upper end representation of average income even with Argentina prices. That means most people there are scrambing for money. What do you do for a living? Did you say you once lived in America but now back in Argentina?
I have good information that the crash of 2000 was caused by the IMF acting on provisions of international loans agreements because the Argentine government was fighting the internationalists. This would explain both the good disposition of the people and the country's poverty. It's really a shame that the country has to pay such a high price to retain its identity.
It still appears to me that the P4P's are born out of cultural, economic, and demographic realities.
I tell you one thing though, the character of many a working girl in Argentina is higher than what you find in your average North American skank.
Then we have the working girls of North America - well that's another story.
Goblin
[blue]Hi Goblin,
What you experienced was a [b]Fantasy Foreign Romance[/b], which should not be confused with a Real Foreign Romance.
A Fantasy Foreign Romance is a prolonged illusionary GFE experience that can only be provided by a relatively small number of skilled practioners who are generally charming, attractive, intelligent, educated, bi-lingual, and well compensated for their time.
I've known a few FFR providers here in Buenos Aires over the years. As a BA resident I'm not a target of their schemes, but I've come to observe their tactics. They generally stroll for their targets in non-traditional venues such as tourist restaurants, bars, cafes, etc. as well as on the internet, where they can develop and then later nurture their fantasy foreign romance clients.
Experienced FFR providers tend to target guys who are in long-term marriges as they are more likely to be starved (and thus responsive to) affection, as opposed to the standard sport fucker who's just looking for sex.
FFR providers are accomplished liars, which is understandable as their job requires them to immersed themselves in their target's life for several days at a time without accidentally divulging any of their many secrets (married, children, true age, etc.) or otherwise "blowing their cover".
One of the best quotes I've ever heard from a FFR provider while describing her email strategies was "I never ask them to send me money, I just tell them that I'm having a [fill in the blank] problem and I wait until they offer to help. If they don't send me money, I just cut them off for a few days until they change their attitude, which they always do".
The dissappointing issue for me is recognizing how many guys come to BA, meet a FFR provider, fail to recognize that it's just a paid performance, and instead fall completely in love while making complete fools of themselves calling and emailing several times a day, plying them with gifts, sending them flowers, and of course, sending them money, all of which motivates me to write this report.
A Real Foreign Romance is exactly as written, but it can only be achieved after you have:
1. Quit your job.
2. Divorced your wife.
3. Sold your home.
4. Moved to Argentina.
If you believe that you are involved in a Real Foreign Romance and you have not acomplished everything in the above list, then you are in fact experiencing a Fantasy Foreign Romance and you should govern yourself accordingly.
One man's observation.
Thanks,
Jackson[/blue]
OK, my two cents.
I do not know of a single succesful relationship between anyone I know and a woman who is or has been in the sex business. This includes me, of course, and I have tried on several occasiones (including 1 ex-wife) because I really didn't think it bothered me what she had done previously (in fact, on one level it sometimes turned me on a little) Sex is an important part of any relationship I have ever had, and sex workers can make great partners!
However, the fact is that, in my experience, once a woman has experienced professional sex, it is very difficult (read impossible) for her to relate to men in any other way, and especially if you were ever one of her "clients" she will never believe that you have given up your wicked ways and aren't going to dump her for the next younger / prettier babe to come down the line (which in fact you very well may!
She will also never be able to get angry with you without recognizing and often excersizing the option to screw the first guy she sees, frequently one of your friends / acquantences.
There is no reason why you can't have a nice (and hot) semi-temporary relationship with your favorite prostitute, but don't make the mistake of thinking she is your once-and-forever sweetheart because one or both of you is going to screw it up!
David
Hello.
Fantasy Foreign Romance or FFR. This term is really worthy of inclusion into the abbreviations section of this site. I suppose you are right and that is why I am seeking input from the experts before doing anything further about this situation.
Although in all honesty this girl did not charge much and did not appear to be particularly sophisticated to me. She requested $200.00 pesos initially for a session but I gave her $100.00 US. She did speak English but poorly and communicating was difficult.
Anyway you are probably right and I will soon find out if I am being suckered and I will report back with the result. I have launched a full scale investigation into the matter.
I should point out though that I am not married, I do not currently own a home, and that I am self employed with enough flexibility to remain absent from the US for months or even years at a time.
Goblin.
That is true, these dynamics would represent difficult and unusual challenges to the relationhip not to mention that it could be used as a weapon against her in every disagreement.
Mind you, the difficulties you are pointing out are also very prevalent in regular North American relationships, in fact most of my friends have experienced women who retaliation fuck their friends or who are concerned about their ability to complete sexually with younger women.
But yes it would pose horrendous challenges and most likely fail for these reasons.
Goblin.
[QUOTE=Capt Dave]OK, my two cents.
I do not know of a single succesful relationship between anyone I know and a woman who is or has been in the sex business. This includes me, of course, and I have tried on several occasiones (including 1 ex-wife) because I really didn't think it bothered me what she had done previously (in fact, on one level it sometimes turned me on a little) Sex is an important part of any relationship I have ever had, and sex workers can make great partners!
However, the fact is that, in my experience, once a woman has experienced professional sex, it is very difficult (read impossible) for her to relate to men in any other way, and especially if you were ever one of her "clients" she will never believe that you have given up your wicked ways and aren't going to dump her for the next younger / prettier babe to come down the line (which in fact you very well may!
She will also never be able to get angry with you without recognizing and often excersizing the option to screw the first guy she sees, frequently one of your friends / acquantences.
There is no reason why you can't have a nice (and hot) semi-temporary relationship with your favorite prostitute, but don't make the mistake of thinking she is your once-and-forever sweetheart because one or both of you is going to screw it up!
David[/QUOTE]
Well to be honest I am in the experimentation stage right now. I know that such a prospect represents monumental obstacles and the only reason I am even experimenting with the idea is because I am beginning to believe that a relationship with an American warhog is even more impossible.
Really every woman in North America has developed herself into a different cultural reality by virtue of the varying ideologies that have been woven in our fragmented society. To be truthful I feel even more foreign in the company of our woman.
It would also be alot eaiser to protect your assets from a failed Argentina relationship.
Goblin.
[QUOTE=Easy Go]Relationships between people with different socio-economic backgrounds are hard. Relationships between people from different cultures are even harder. But then almost all worthwhile relationships involve risks and hard work.
That's not a license to be either blind or stupid but you are the only one here that knows if the reward is worth the risk. The percentages might be against you but probability is not certainty. Just remember that hope is not a plan and that a relationship based on your money and her economic need is unlikely to be the basis of anything lasting.
Suerte![/QUOTE]
I don't think they care that much about looks. I have seen very attractive women there with unattractive guys. The common denominator among them was their apparent attentiveness and attitude towards the woman and their general spiritual disposition.
Maybe the answer is in the study of argentinian men and the way they relate to women? A very good friend of mine who spent quite a bit of time in Argentina says that the men of Argentina a too mocho and that many women there can not handle this. I have not been able to verify this claim.
Anyway importing is definately out of the question for the reasons you have already stated although I would not refer to the process of this change as a form of evolution but rather a degeneration.
Living part time in Argentina might bring better prospects than a full time war hog back home.
Your average US divorce settlement will exceed the cost of any travelling expenses to Argentina including the cost of supporting someone there. Imagine what a mere $300.00 US a month will do for an Argentinia female. That's barely the cost of keeping your average US skank in underwear nowadays.
If she gets out of control you walk away, what do we have to lose?
Goblin.
[QUOTE=Marak5]Goblin.
I don't think you are naive. The exact same happened to me on my last trip.
I was there about a month ago and I am still in contact with the girl today. I am sincerely hoping that we stay in touch until I am there again in May.
I was pretty skeptical at first but am really surprised to find out that she came through with all her promises to remain in touch with me once I returned home. I spent 5 of 7 nights with her. And I knew she wasnt faking her feelings for me when she started meeting me outside of the boliche. Unlike you we did not have hours of tears upon my depature, but we did spend quite a bit of time alone and it very similar to saying goodbye to a real girlfriend. GFE was also an understatement for me as she wasn't really faking anything.
I also realize that this is a very pretty girl, and there are many attractive men in argentina. So why is she that interested in me? Not that I'm ugly. But this girl is from a poor background in the provincias and I have money and I know that this is a major component of it. So while I have no problem with giving her "gifts" while I am there, I do have limits. I won't spend more on her than I would with any other hooker. On the other hand, the service she provides to me is so good that it is worth it in my opinion. My only advice to you is. Just be cautious. Don't get pussy whipped and then get suckered into giving her large sums of money. You hear too many stories of guys falling in love with hookers and getting dumped as soon as the girl doesn't need the guy anymore. These girls are very talented at manipluating feelings of affection, so I say enjoy it, just don't become a sucker. Also, don't listen to the guys that will post that it isn't possible to have real genuine feelings with a hooker. I was in your shoes and I know it is possible. And they are just a bunch of jaded assholes.
And my future plans with her have nothing to do with a normal relationship. I plan to have fun with her, perhaps spend a lot of time with her rather than frequenting the boliches, and leave it at that. I think it would be a little stupid on my part to have expectations for a normal relationship. I suggest you nip those types of thoughts now if you are having them. So enjoy the genuine connection but just do not start getting serious about her. From everything I've heard, it's a bad idea to bring foreign women into the USA to marry them. They seem to just evolve into typical AW's. And. Do you plan to live in Argentina? Probably not. So exactly what type of serioius relationship could realistically occur even if you wanted it to?
So in conclusion, just remember that a big reason she probably likes you is because you're a rich gringo. Just don't let her use that against you in the long run.[/QUOTE]