2004 Reports - Edited

[Ferris Bueller]

Hi all,

Finally got my regular member status, have been in BA for the last few nights and loving it, only problem is I would have posted this earlier as I was looking for drinking/mongering buddies.

I´m still around in BA tonight and tomorrow (20th and 21st Sep)...staying at Loisuites Recoleta although I may have to move tomorrow..

If anyone is free and wants to hook up please feel free to PM me...alternatively I have a mobile phone provided by the hotel for tonight (4562 4889) so give me a call. I know I´m only scratching the surface of the BA scene as I don´t speak Spanish, and will happily buy a few (many) beers for anyone willing to show a rookie the ropes..

I will also be back in BA on the 28th, as I´m flying back to London on the 29th.

Cheers,

Andy

[Saint]

We don't have to agree on everything. We all have our opinions and that is fine and dandy.

Lexton makes some great points but I still disagree with him on some of his points. When he says, "this is what women everywhere do for a living"... he is WAY off the mark, IMHO. This is NOT what women do everywhere. Until I read that Lexton is sleeping with overweight, drunk, older, and ugly women with BAD hygiene then he can tell me that this job is easy. (I'm in no way saying this is the make up of WSG members but look around at some of the clubs you are in). Like I said before, this job aint easy. Not to mention the emotional toll it takes on them. No way in hell I could do this job. Not for all the money in the world. I still remember one day in 2002 at a party Jackson threw at his apartment. I sat next to this guy that smelled like sh*t. He had the worst hygiene of anyone I ever met in my life. Every single person in the party was talking about it even days after the party. How that guy got any girl to sleep with him is beyond me. And some guys wonder why they get no "GFE".

We can all say that sex isn't free. We pay in some way. That is true. But that's totally different than saying that "every girl sleeps with anyone with money". Two totally different things. Most model hot girls in the USA and Europe won't just sleep with you because you have money. This is the single biggest problem I think with the mindset of many guys that hobby. They lose sight of reality and think that everything in life and sex revolves around money and ANY girl is available for a few $$. I just read on another private board (CH) some guy that posted the reality is he can sleep with ANY girl he wants. I posted a correction. No, he can sleep with any prostitute he wants. There is a huge difference.

As far as tipping the maid. I do that too. Something interesting was a few weeks ago when I was at the WSG mansion. There were some girls there that Captain Dave hired for the photos of the Mansion. Andres was talking to them and I think one of the girls mentioned that she would rather clean houses and make 5 pesos an hour then sleep with guys for money. That is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Not every girl will sleep with just any guy that has money. That is the point you have to remember. There are FAR more girls like that in the world then the girls that we are meeting in Madahos or Black. That IS reality.

The other thing is that someone posted about people like Dickhead paying a lot less. He will have no advantage going into a place like Madahos or Black and he realizes it. That's probably why he doesn't bother to go in. (The fact that drinks are ridiculously expensive probably doesn't help either). I've been with Andres several times to the places he goes. I've been to the places Dickhead goes to. I never have seen the quality that I see in Madahos or Black. You guys can post things like "yeah, but the sex is amazing with these girls". People like me need to have sex with the type we are attracted to the most.

We don't have to agree on everything. Hell, we don't have to agree on anything. That's what makes the world interesting. As far as people bitching about WSG, other people's informative posts, etc. and it causing price increases. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Yes, sites like WSG will cause more people to flock to BA or wherever but these same sites provide valuable information for the active traveler. If you don't want to participate then don't read it or post to it anymore. I still laugh because I'm on a few other private boards. Many people badmouth WSG but they are probably the guys that read it the most. Really funny to me.

Good luck and safe travels to all.

Saint

[JackDaniels]

Well, I half agree with Lexton but I think he is naive if he expects the "local" market to remain a secret for long. There will be some movement of both girls from the local market to Madahos and Blacks, and tourists in the opposite direction. Also the owners of the places that supply the local market will soon be attracted to the dollars in the touristy places and they surely will make some moves to get some of those dollars if they are in any way entrepreneurial.

My original question to the readers of this forum is whether the improved economy since the devaluation days has increased prices and the answers appear to be unequivocal that it has.

Sadly, the arrival of the bigger budget tourist will produce inflationary pressures in this smaller market, however the arrival of these tourists is not at all surprising, given the more benign economic climate in the country.

On the other hand the increase in prices will surely attract other suppliers into the market (both new clubs and more girls). This too is inevitable.

Just MHO.

[Dickhead]

Amen to all of that, Brother Lexton.

[ChicagoBoy23]

I used to love Madaho's and Recolleta. Last visit it was all Catto's, Cafe Exedra, and good old DH Maria's who works street near Galleria Pacifica. Little more inconvenient and not as nice atmosphere as Madaho's but still pretty and GFE women.

Remember lets only pay for value because the chase is as much fun the actual kill. The educated monger will only pay market. Of course there is the experience curve.

I know BA well and keep to 150 pesos. Was just in Lima and did same night 1 and 2 but got ripped off (price) at MP at major hotel on #3 Sunday morning because of bad market knowledge and limited time to search.

[Khoofoo]

Wow. Well, I can't agree with everything you are staying, I like how you are analyzing the situation. Interesting post.

[Lexton]

Well! It seems the price topic has gotten real attention. Why am I not surprised? I have been trying to fight the tourist mentality for some time. My conclusion is, we can't win(the non-tourists) because we can't eliminate the tourist mentality(the guy who comes with $US5000 to spend in 10 days and spends it). He is the same guy who goes to Las Vegas and loses it in the casinos, or the thieving strip joints. He has no interest in value, only really in spending the money. For this reason, there always grows an industry willing to help him spend it for the least value. If we can direct these tourists to the tourist exploiters, they will do less harm.

I am not a tourist. I am a world traveller. I travel all the time, and expect to do so as long as my health allows me. While I have a generous budget compared to almost everyone here, I care about price and quality. I have a goal to have a woman TLN every day, 365 days a year, if possible. I am late 50's, I like women of 20. It doesn't work to try to marry one(see below), so it only works to pay cash per performance. Often I see the same women over periods of weeks, like DH. But $ar50 is important when one pays it every day, so I can't have the vacationer-tourist's attitude, and wouldn't want to have it.

Yes, Black and Madahos are destroyed. Sex in these places are rising to world value, to where the tourists resist paying more. We have to get used to that. The same thing is happening to the popular web sites. As to why world prices are what they are, "Latina Addict" and Prokofiev have the right idea. The tourists are overpaying. Starfe, I also bought women in Las Vegas starting in 1971. I could take nice talent from Ceasers Palace for $75 then. The brothel price was $35 north of Vegas. Things have changed in the US, mostly as they got tougher on the prostitution trade and tourism increased. I wouldn't touch Las Vegas now. But yes, you are bringing the tourist mentality with you to BA. For you, it really doesn't matter much between Lois Suites and Black in BA and the Hotel Bristol and Le Palace in Panama City. You plan to spend whatever you can afford to bring, with no regard for value or market conditions. Which makes you perfect for the tourist exploiter.

Sex prices in the rich nations are set by monopoly price fixing. The price is basically marriage, and the monopoly is maintained by law. This gives sex an extremely high value. So high that most people in these countries don't get much. Just as I didn't when I lived in the US(even as a good income executive for years). Sex simply wasn't worth the price in the US. It got a lot worse for me in PA after the passage of the Berkowitz rape law(its rape if she says it is, even if force or threats were not involved). This has to be added to the price of sex. An ACCUSATION costs at least $100,000 to defend, so extortion is a real concern if you have anything to lose. So there were a great many days I would have gladly dropped $500 on a decent quality woman just to feel her up without risk.

You will also note that all of the English speaking countries of the world are among the worst, followed by Japan. The US is the absolute worst. You can thank the long influence of women(like Queen Victoria) in the governance and religion of these countries. Which is why Americans are so driven as sex tourists.

So the world price of sex has more to do with the disposable vacation income of the sex tourist than its value in the rich countries, since the value of sex in marriage is outrageously high, more than half your income/year for whatever your wife sees fit to give you, out of the goodness of her heart. And you are trapped, because the price of divorce is even more ridiculous. The price of sex in a dating relationshop is also ridiculous, since the woman is usually interested in trapping you into marriage on top of the other costs.

As to the value of sex as a job for the women sex workers, it really does have to do with the income levels of the community where they live. Saint, you seem a nice guy, but we really part on this issue. You keep going on about the difficulty of this job. Crap. This is what women do for a living everywhere. Usually, we call the job "wife", with pay as above. Is cleaning the bathrooms of apartments so much better? Or washing the feet of fat wealthy women in beauty spas? Or washing the shit off the behinds of old people in nursing homes? Cleaning up vomit in hospitals? Or working picking crops in the sun, working as a waitress in a cafe? These are the jobs with "dignity" for the poor young women. Give me a break. The real reason there aren't more women jumping to do this is "see monopoly", above. The older and upper class women are desperate to try to keep young, pretty, poor women from taking advantage of their greatest asset in a free market. So they try to force a poor, pretty, young woman to marry a poor man and work in one of the jobs above(IN ADDITION TO THE JOB OF SERVICING HER HUSBAND), thereby avoiding competition with her.

Saint, notice how in the discussion about paying a maid(in Living in Argentina) to clean the crap out of your bathrooms you sing a totally different tune about overpaying and tipping. Is her job so great? Why do you want to tip the bartenders at Madahos, who did nothing but rip you off; more than your maid who works so hard for you?

Currently, I see a 21YO woman 4 nights a week, TLN 9-9 for which I pay her $ar150/night. At $ar600/week, this woman is in heaven. She never hoped to make so much in her life. Where a waiter makes maybe $ar250/week for a 10 hour day, or a store clerk $ar100/week? I am actually very generous with her in this market. My greatest concern is the effect on her when I have to end the relationship.

The proper solution to this is to use this forum to monitor and study the market and then behave and pay accordingly. This forum is interesting, because it gives one the opportunity to obtain information that is usually only available to a native of some time in an area. When a newbie asks for information to avoid the tourist traps, they are asking for information that normally is only acquired with difficulty and local experience. But there is a responsibility that comes with that information. That responsibility is basically to behave the way the people who acquired that information behaved, i.e. as veteran or local, so one doesn't create tourist exploiters. So they really need to study all that is available.

This is a very practical issue for me. I am, and plan to continue, travelling in out of the way areas. Like Andres does in BA. I have been posting, and much of the info is, and will be, new to the travellers. But should I really give out this info, and thereby invite a bunch of people to come to these places and attract the tourist sharks, thereby ruining it for myself in the future? Andres just got a taste of this when some people immediately took one of his fresh, new, young recommendations in an apartment over to Madahos to look for more money. I fully expect him to stop posting local info in this forum at any time if this crap continues. I would mourn the loss, since for me his info is amoung the most valuable.

The main reason I haven't stopped posting already is that I don't believe the continuous readers of this forum are the greatest culprits, particularly the more experienced travellers. This forum has been disparaging Madahos for months as becoming overpriced, and they just raised their prices. So obviously they have a lot of customers who don't agree with this forum. Instead, I cringe every time I hear about Moondog and his writeup praising BA in other forums as a great destination. I have never read any of them, but I have read every one of his postings here 4 times, using the search function. He has continually promoted the web sites(escorts-argentina and Platinum especially) and little else. Worse, he has been a constant advocate of increasing the price of the web women to the insane $ar300/hour(supporting the $US-$ar confusion ripoff), and overpaying in other ways. And I cringe when I have read for over a year Roxanne's explanatory post that the average price of internet women is $ar150-$ar200, clearly promoting overpaying. Many of these same women work from apartments for $ar80 or less. I think that those people have much greater influence on the newbies, who don't bother to read the volumes of stuff here, than I do.

But I still think about it every time I prepare a post on another city. And it is why I won't directly answer a newbie who asks: "Can you tell me where to go and what to do so I don't have to study at finding out thru the forum?". If one gives this person local knowledge, this is simply inviting problems. Leave these people to the tourist exploiters. Send them to Madahos, Black, Roxanne, escorts-argentina, and platinum.

We can expect that BA will further develop 2 markets, a tourist exploiting market that is well known to the tourists, and a secondary, locally priced market. The primary issue is how to support knowledge of the secondary market without inviting the "tourist mentality" types who would destroy it. This is a very small industry. The main clubs only have a total of less than 200 working women. The popular apartments less than 100. It doesn't really take many people to create a problem. The other cities are even smaller. Interestingly, especially in the Argentina forum, I like the fact that the real info is buried in so much garbage. I wish Andres did NOT have his own forum. It makes it too easy to find his valuable local info.

[MiddleAgeGuy]

Regarding Quality and the Exodas:
Common sense tells you that many cannot/will not leave BA due to family condition, ability to get visa's, fear of unknown, etc. I have talked to some who have gone to more lucrative pasteures but they come back; they get home sick I think.

Prices are up:
Agreed, but it beats the 1:1 days. Through conversations with some of the girls, some over a period of time, the chica network is stronger than ever. It doesn't take more than 1 or 2 of their buddies to latch on to a sugar daddy type, or someone/someplace where the fees extracted are off the norm scale, and the girls feel they deserve and have the right to the same. Can they get it? Maybe. If not? Back to the old haunts/regulars where they may become miserable because they are not getting what they want.

Other Recoleta clubs.
I have not heard much of the other places in Recoleta lately besides Black, Newport and Madaho. Any news?

MAG

[Starfe]

Prokofiev,

The mother - sister part was over the top but not the Vegas part.
You are right about being at a major disadvantage by not speaking spanish. That makes my negotiating skills nil if they speak very little english. Time is a major constraint, so I am not willing to walk away from a nice piece of tail for that reason. I have certain goals in mind on every trip.

85% of the girls i see on any given trip are from Area - vip ONLY. All are booked through the front desk at Loisuites. I love that staff.


Starfe

[Prokofiev]

Saint,

"I somewhat agree with Prokofiev but I disagree when he says it's like "paying $50,000 for a car with a list price of $25,000". Sex isn't like that. It's more like buying a diamond with no set price tag. The diamond is worth only as much as someone will pay. Some know the ins and outs of buying a diamond and some don't. "

But the point of the WSG Forum is to EXPLAIN the ins and outs of buying a "diamond". That's one of the most useful things here - it establishes the fair market value in each location by comparing what each guy paid. Information is power. Yes, there IS a set price tag -more or less- on each "piece" and we are here to reveal that oh-so-important bit of secret info.

What costs DickHead 100 pesos might cost me 150 because I'm not going to cook dinner or use a vibrator and it might cost another guy 200 cause he doesn't speak Spanish or bargain. That's cool. But when someone grossly overspends after reading this forum, he's not helping himself or his fellow mongers. And especially not the local guys who can't compete. And worst of all, instead of looking generous, you can wind up looking like a target or a "mark" to the girls.

Starfe,
"For the record my sister and my mother were both working girls at 1 time or another"
"I used to watch my father buy me callgirls at the Desert Inn in Vegas while he played Bacarat. I was a mere 18 at the time . . ."

Does that mean what it sounds like?? You had one hell of a childhood . . .

Peace -P

[Guillermo]

DH,

Must be difficult to talk with your tongue stuck in your cheek that way.

[Dickhead]

The quality of girls in Buenos Aires is extremely poor and everybody should stay away. Go to México instead. The girls there are much better looking and a much better value.

Just my opinion.

[Saint]

I agree with Andres. I know some of these girls leaving for greener pastures. As Andres mentioned, the action here is still mainly comprised of locals. Look at places like Rio with TONS of tourists and still the hottest girls are going to Europe. They want EUROS and US$ not Pesos or Reals.

I somewhat agree with Prokofiev but I disagree when he says it's like "paying $50,000 for a car with a list price of $25,000". Sex isn't like that. It's more like buying a diamond with no set price tag. The diamond is worth only as much as someone will pay. Some know the ins and outs of buying a diamond and some don't. Some just walk into a store and buy it because they have the money while the smarter consumer will let the seller of the diamond know that it's overpriced and try to reach a fairer price.

Girls are realizing what they are worth in other parts of the world. That's all. They realize they can invest $1,000 in a flight to Europe or Mexico and can maybe make that make in 1-2 days then make big money. These girls here don't need a visa to visit Europe so it's very easy for them. I just talked to two more girls I know that are heading to Spain in a month. Honestly, I don't blame them. It's like us. Would you stay in the same city if you knew you could go to Europe, do the same exact job you are doing here (maybe even easier there since sessions are VERY quick) and you would make 4/5/6 X your salary?? I doubt it. Think objectively and subjectively when you think about all of this. Not just how much more YOU are paying.

Too many guys look at the hobby as Me, me, me. Think of things more in terms of what would you do if you were the girl. It will help you understand them more. All you guys think that these girls are making "easy money". They probably have the toughest job in the world. I've said it before and I'll say it again. We are all not Prince fricking charming. Most of us have sisters or daughters. So needless to say we wouldn't want to see them doing this profession because it's NOT as easy as guys make it appear. These girls are angels for doing what they are doing.

[Prokofiev]

". . . All this nickel and diming by so many posters here has helped to ruin the market. So many of you who are beating these girls down for a few pesos have been killing it for the rest of us"

Paying $50,000 for a car with a $25,000 list price isn't being generous. You are merely viewed as a "Chump" by the salesman and instead of generating respect and appreciation, you get more distain. What most people suggest here is to know the market and the going market price. Be fair, but over-paying makes little sense and I have seen it lead to worse service and attitude. As Jackson and others have pointed out repeatedly, there is no real connection between price and service. The under 100 peso girl is just as likely to provide great service as a 300 peso girl. The "Rich American Chump" or Sugar-Daddy syndrome is worse for the vast majority of mongers than being too cheap. Try to use a little charm, personal attention and a fair market price instead of relying only on a fat wallet. The results are usually better . . . Just my 2 cents.

Peace -P

[Havanaman]

Starfe,

You are right about the need for high rollers: it works out the same in any society. I have sat amongst some real players: serious money, on a flight to Paris so I know what you mean. There are pros and cons here, but in the final analysis people will spend what they want. One mans $50 is another mans$5 and so the world turns.

Whilst at college, my father brought a pack of condoms for me and asked me if I knew what they were and how to use them. He added that all he wanted me to bring back form college was my education: grandchildren could wait. You are one lucky man with a father such as yours!

Regards,

Havanaman