Argentina Residency

[El Queso]

Facundo, you're a little behind the times on the fine - it's 300 pesos for non-Mercosur residents and 150 pesos for Mercosur residents now.

Also, I understand what you say about not using someone to help one through the residency process, but I have to disagree with you somewhat.

One could always receive the precaria (temporary residency) the day that one applied for it - IF the application was accepted. Although getting the actual temporary residency papers (once approved) and then following on with the DNI is much quicker and easier than it was in the past, there are other issues to think about.

The biggest one is the people in immigration, which you still have to deal with. If the slightest thing is wrong with your documentation (for example, my name officially ends with an apostrophe, but it's not like that on my passport, and it is on my birth certificate) you will be rejected to fix it (depending on how different it is - I know someone else whose BC had their full name, but their passport had their first name, middle initial and last name and they had to go through hoops to get some agency in the States to say that they were the same person, etc. My wife had the same issue with her mother's name - on ONE DOCUMENT her name ended in "s" rather than "z" and she had to go back to Paraguay to get a statement saying they were the same person) The people in immigration do not review anything else. When they hit one problem, they tell you about it and send you on your way. When you come back the next time and there is another little issue - you're stuck doing it all over again.

If you have everything perfect that you need, and there are no problems, sure, you don't need anyone to help you.

If there are any little problems, the lawyer can often talk the immigration person out of making it an issue (in the case of my apostrophe, for example) The lawyer I use brings gifts to the people there, has spent years cultivating "friendships" and helps one breeze through any minor problems that may be encountered.

On top of all of that - the wait time to get an appointment to file your papers is around 40 days right now. I know of someone who just got their appointment a couple of days ago. Also, it took him almost three weeks to even get someone to answer the phone to make the appointment (yes, it's true - maybe only because of the holidays? Every time your application is rejected, no matter for the tiniest reason, you have to go back and get another appointment - by yourself it could be 40 days.

I received my precaria on Dec. 30, the day before New Year's. I got the appointment to file it three DAYS before, in the middle of the holidaze! Why? Because I had a lawyer who knows the system and knew who to call to get in. It took me almost two months to get my FBI report, my birth certificate, everything apostilled, etc. He did it all for me and just charged the fees he was charged to get it done. He has contacts in the US to make all that happen (since I live here)

Also, many people who are applying for residency don't have a good reason to do so. They aren't married to a resident, they don't have investments or retirement income that bring in $750 US a month, they aren't going to school, they don't have 1.5 million pesos to buy government bonds (that latter went up froom 500K recently) It is very beneficial, for example, to talk to a lawyer to find out what you need to have to prove stable income (salaries don't count - it has to be some sort of investment income) if you are going for a rentista or retirement visa. If you haen't made the guy in immigrations happy with the papers you present by yourself, back to the drawing board.

The laws change often in immigrations, as well. Last year, we were getting residency for my wife's younger sister. She got the residency no problem - we had a letter of authorization for her to be with us from her parents which was fine for getting the precaria, but when we went to get the DNI in November, which is in a different department, we found out that that department had more stringent guidelines for getting the DNI and that authorization wasn't good enough - we had to have something else.

I will not deny that things have become more steamlined in migraciones. I have watched my wife get residency for herself, her brother and her sister and watched her go through hell over two years with them. The last couple of months things did run smoother, but she still had to deal with the people themselves.

This is Argentina. Just because the government streamlines things doesn't mean that it takes away all the problems associated with dealing with tramites.

If you have a lot of free time and feel adventurous, and speak enough Spanish to understand what is going on when you have problems with paperwork (or whatever) then I would agree that doing it yourself is fine.

Otherwise, you can save an unmeasurable amount of time, heartache and uncertainty by hiring someone to help you through the process. If you pay more than Seaman said below, you are being ripped off. It cost me significantly less because my residency is a spouse residency, my wife being a resident, and that makes it much easier.

With the right person helping you, they go down there with you, sit through the waiting (once you get your turn, you go to sit and wait for a number to be called) and do all the talking. You just sign the papers where they indicate and walk out with your paper in one session.

[Facundo]

Does anyone know an HONEST person that can help with residency legitimisation as I am A Swiss and American already possesing property here in Bs. As. Province? Also, what is the penalty for not leaving to Uruguay every 3 months?

I realize some feel comfortable using an attorney or so called expert for residency in Argentina and the acquisition of the DNI. My advice is not to use these so called experts because the process in becoming a resident of Argentina and getting the DNI is much easier now than ever. I thought it was easy when I got my residency and DNI, but now the Departments of Immigration (issues residency permits) and The Registry of Persons (issues the DNI) have instituted longer hours, high speed computers, more workers, etc. (please see posts 143 and 150 in this same thread on what is needed to get residency and the DNI)

With the changes instituted a person who has his documents can get his residency letter the same day he submits his application and within 60 to 90 days actually have his DNI. The goal is to eventually issue the DNI within 15 days of having the official one year residency letter. So, probably within 6 months the entire process could take about 45 days instead of about 90 days.

I am stunned at the corporate changes made at these two bureaucratic institutions. They have become efficient and responsive to the clients they serve. For Argentina this change borders on the miraculous.

By the way, the penalty for not renewing the visa every 90 days is a fine of about 50 pesos. However, I think a person who doesn't renew could be playing with fire. The Department of Immigration has implemented high tech computers to track people more efficiently. At this point the consequences for not renewing appear to be small, but who knows what consequences might be in store for those who violate immigration laws and regulations?

[Seaman]

Does anyone know an HONEST person that can help with residency legitimisation as I am A Swiss and American already possesing property here in Bs. As. Province? Also, what is the penalty for not leaving to Uruguay every 3 months?

Contact Gabriel Celano of Celano abogados. (http://www.celano.com.ar/) Will set you back about US$1200 but then he will guide you through the whole process and will do most of the work for you.

US$1200 sounds maybe expensive but by using him the whole process will get a lot shorter compared to doing it yourself. Just make sure you have your birth certificate / criminal history (FBI) from the US with an apostille. Without those documents it will be impossible to start the process.

[Herenow53]

Does anyone know an HONEST person that can help with residency legitimisation as I am A Swiss and American already possesing property here in Bs. As. Province? Also, what is the penalty for not leaving to Uruguay every 3 months?

[Facundo]

Maybe the 90 day Uruguay trip has worked fine for the last 10 or 100 years.

But for those of you who have said there is no reason to go through the hassle of obtaining an Argentine permanent residence or citizenship, even though you meet the basic requirements, there's a good reason. Uncertainty - especially in South America.

Legalize yourself now just in case you won't have that choice in future years, or you may really regret it. As a US citizen you have literally nothing to lose.

On the Department of Immigration site their is an interesting note (bragging actually) on the latest computers purchased and implemented at Buquebus, Ezeisa, Colonia Express, etc., (all the entry points for Argentina) to track foreigners coming and going.

http://www.migraciones.gov.ar/ (the site is in spanish).

I don't believe it's a reason to become a resident, but if anyone needed to get their residency the process is very simple once you have your documents properly stamped and translated. See my previous posts and those of others on this matter.

[Argento]

Fascism is a political system popularised by Mussolini that endeavored to organise all the contributing groups in a given industry to combine in a fascist. The root of the word is the same root as faggot in english. In english it means a bundle of sticks. So for example the car industry fascist would seek to include the capitalists, the workers, the sales force, the servicing shops, the tyre companies etc. Peron picked it up and it was the basis and remains the basis of the Peronist party in Argentina. The fact that it had failed in Italy before the outbreak of WW2 didn't make him think twice. It's appeal to the Argentine political class is that it delivers absolute power, particularly with industrialists on the program and organised labor. After 60 years of absolute failure to improve the lives of Argentinos, it is obvious that is not the aim of the political class. Delias, the leader of the picateers is really the leader of the Argentine Blackshirts. The modern use of the term fascism is a pejorative word and the fact that it really means a bona fide political system is usually not understood.

Argento

[El Queso]

I agree what both of you say about the immigration in general. I had already decided to get my residency well before the apparent shift in policy.

The problem I have is that US citizens seem to be singled out for the 90 day thing. It's not necessarily a broad-based thing. That's according to what my lawyer was telling me related to the shift in immigration scrutiny and some anecdotes I've heard from Americans as opposed to, say Canadians and Australians who are also targets of the "reciprocity visa" tax. That's more of a feeling than a fact, because the truth is I don't know that many ex-pats who live here who are not from the US.

However, there is another ex-pat website covering Argentina where I have seen US citizens talking about having these problems and have not seen other nationalities talking about that. Maybe more US citizens attempt to be here on 90 day visas than other nationalities?

As far as the fascism comments. That has nothing to do with their immigration policy. Argentina's current rulers call themselves Peronists, which to me means they want to be fascist and they try hard and come close to succeeding, at least at times.

The US is a good-sized target here. The book "Las Venas Abiertas de Latina America" is on the curriculum in schools here. "Everyone knows" that the US' shelfish foreign and economic policies are the primary reason the Argentina people can't get ahead. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the government is purposefully targeting Americans to help create a focus for the people to be pissed off at.

[Moore]

Maybe the 90 day Uruguay trip has worked fine for the last 10 or 100 years.

But for those of you who have said there is no reason to go through the hassle of obtaining an Argentine permanent residence or citizenship, even though you meet the basic requirements, there's a good reason. Uncertainty - especially in South America.

I say the same thing to a few people I know here in the USA who have "permanent" residence but have not naturalized as US citizens mostly due to pride in their native country.

Legalize yourself now just in case you won't have that choice in future years, or you may really regret it. As a US citizen you have literally nothing to lose.

[Schmoj]

"This country is not being nice to Americans. They have implemented the reciprocity visa of USD 131 and most american are being told at the border that they will not be allowed to re enter if they keep using tourist visas."

The US is the scapegoat of South America, and as things get worse here in Argentina, it could be more difficult for US citizens to come and go and live here.

At first read, I agreed with you 100% , but if you think about it, Argentina is not doing anything that all of their neighbors haven't already done. In fact, it surprises me that it has taken them this long.

Also, if someone lives here and have been relying on the trip to Colonia to stay legal, then they should kind of expect this may happen. Just my 2 centavos. I'm sure if you can find someone to bribe there won't be any problem.

I just came back from a two month stint in the US. On one hand I am glad to be back, but there sure seems like something is brewing in the air. And I don't mean the exhaust from the collectivos.

[El Queso]

The people who lap it up don't realize they are being screwed because the government does such a good job of pushing the idea of the "evil" US and older "colonial powers". These powers are doing everything they can to hold back the people in Latin America and if it wasn't for these evil pricks, by damn, every government policy put into place would work!

Peron was a fascist, who studied at Mussolini's side. By definition, anyone who is a Peronist is a fascist as well, albeit in this day and age, maybe not as fierce as Peron was able to be in his time (s)

This fascist outlook explains completely why Kirchner wanted Shell to bend to his will and sell at a loss - this is the kind of things that fascists do. It also should tell people to keep investments to a bare minimum in places like Argentina.

On a bit of a side note, I have heard that migraciones is starting to crack down quite a bit on the tourist visa thing. I have heard of some US ex-pats being warned when returning to BA from Colonia that they had better get residency because soon they will not be able to cross the border like they have been to renew the 90 visa. I've heard of US ex-pats being denied outright a visa extension in migraciones here in BA.

I'm going through the residency process now, and here's a direct quote from my lawyer on a query about the possibility of having problems as an American:

"...this country is not being nice to Americans. They have implemented the reciprocity visa of USD 131 and most americans are being told at the border that they will not be allowed to re enter if they keep using tourist visas."

The US is the scapegoat of South America, and as things get worse here in Argentina, it could be more difficult for US citizens to come and go and live here.

[Airplane]

So does this mean that you were eligible for Rentista visa without having a "passive income"? That means just show them lot of money in your home account and ATM withdrawal receipts in BA and they are satisfied?

Not exactly.

The income requirement was more complicated than this for me, the first time I applied for this type of visa at the consulate, one year ago. Although I don't say much about the income requirement in it, see my report in this thread from 10-26-08, for some more details.

Here is some more information about that time at the consulate, as well as I can remember it. I haven't had a regular income for a long time. The broker wrote me a letter that said they would mail a check, to my USA address, that was equal to the amount of income required for this visa for one year. The letter, in this case, was useless. The consulate wanted something from me that would say that there would be a monthly transfer of funds. They eventually got around to, even if it was to another bank in the USA, because I told them that I could not open a bank account in Argentina. The person I talked to pushed pretty hard for this. I told them that I use ATMs to get my money and that if for some reason I couldn't get the money from the ATMs, that it is possible to wire up to U$S 5,000 per month to myself for use as tourist expenses. After the person went and talked to someone else about this, they agreed to let me have the visa.

At that meeting with the consulate, we never talked about having any quantity of money in an account. It was all about some kind of regular transfer of funds.

I don't think that this is a very good answer to your question, but it is the way things went for me that first time. I'm sure a lot of what might be required for anyone else, will depend on the people they talk to at the particular consulate that they would have to go to.

For the renewal, it was my idea to show the papers about the quantity of money, in case they might have asked where did I get that money that I was taking out of ATMs. Whether or not I actually would have needed to do something like that, I don't know.

[Member #3320]

I don't have a bank account here. In any bank, anywhere, I don't receive any "renta," in other words income. What I did for this was to show some papers that have the amount of money I got from the sale of a house on them, to show a source of my funds. For "renta," I showed receipts from when I took money out of ATMs here, for the last year. Migraciones had no problem with this, but asked for a letter from a bank saying that I had some amount of money in an account there and that I could withdraw this money. This was to show that I currently had money available.

Nice Report. Thanks. So does this mean that you were eligible for Rentista visa without having a "passive income"? That means just show them lot of money in your home account and ATM withdrawal receipts in BA and they are satisfied?

It is very interesting indeed.

Most of the lawyers in BA talk about passive / steady / monthly income for being eligible for "rentista" visa.

[Airplane]

I renewed my rentista visa on October 14. I hope some of the information about my experience can be of use to someone.

I made this a lot more difficult than it should have been, because I didn't pay attention to the instructions on the migraciones website: http://www.migraciones.gov.ar . Since I didn't, it meant that I had to have papers sent to me from the USA and that caused all kinds of problems and delays.

To get to the renewal instructions on the above page, click on “Requisitos para Residencias” in the column on the left side. At the top of the area of the page that then comes up, click on “Radicaciones No-Mercosur”. Then, at the top of the area of the next page that comes up, click on “Prórrogas”. There is no direct link to these pages, you have to get to them through these menus.

My situation regarding the instruction “Certificación del banco donde recibe su renta...” is different than this. I don't have a bank account here. In any bank, anywhere, I don't receive any “renta,” in other words income. What I did for this was to show some papers that have the amount of money I got from the sale of a house on them, to show a source of my funds. For “renta,” I showed receipts from when I took money out of ATMs here, for the last year. Migraciones had no problem with this, but asked for a letter from a bank saying that I had some amount of money in an account there and that I could withdraw this money. This was to show that I currently had money available.

For the “Antecedentes de Policía Federal Argentina...” I went to the website for the “Registro Nacional de Residencia” at: http://www.dnrec.jus.gov.ar to make an appointment to get this document. The appointment from this website is for their location at Piedras 115. On the page that comes up when you click on "Reserva Su Turno Por Internet", you can pick a date on the calendar and it will then show you the number of places available for a given time on that date. When you finish this, you can print out a page with your appointment number on it.

There will most likely be the usual appointment chaos when you arrive. You present your paper to the receptionist and are given another number. I don't remember whether or not they gave me a number for the cashier and another for my appointment. After you pay, you wait for your number to appear on one of the screens on the wall.

The person I saw looked at what I filled in on the web page and didn't have any questions. I was given a paper to bring back with me when I came to pick up the document. You can have anyone pick it up.

The "Prórrogas" instructions also mention "Documento Nacional de Identidad" as one of the requirements. I don't have one, yet. This didn't matter.

I went to the "Sede Central" of migraciones at Av. Antártida Argentina 1355. It opens at 07:30.

I got there at around 07:00 once and around 06:30 another time. There was already a long line both times. Almost all of those people are there for other things, so you won't be delayed much. Security will ask you what you are there for. This line gets divided up a bit before 07:30. One line, for people who have appointments, goes in one door.

Since I was there for a "prórroga de permanencia" I went in the other line. You go to a counter in the middle of the building to get a number. You then go to the prórroga de permanencia area and wait for them to call your number. When I was there, this area, unlike many of the others in the building didn't have a screen that showed what number they were serving.

My visa expired on Sept. 16. Due to delays in getting papers, I went to migraciones on Sept. 15. Because I made an appointment that I shouldn't have and it was too late in the day to do anything in the prórrogas area, I had to come back the next day. They told me that even though my visa would expire that day, that I had 30 days more to renew it.

When I was there the following day, they asked for the letter from a bank. I was told again that I had 30 days more to take care of this.

I had to ask 2 banks for this letter. One bank screwed around with my request for 2 weeks, before telling me they wouldn't notarize the letter. It finally got here on Oct. 9. I picked it up from the translator on the 13th and went back to migraciones on the 14th. There wasn't any problem with the papers, but the person I saw at that time told me that my visa had expired and therefore I couldn't renew it. She eventually went and talked to someone else about it and I got the renewal.

Some important things to remember are that any papers that come from abroad have to have either an apostille or certification from that country. If they aren't in Spanish, they have to get a certified translation here. Make copies of any papers, including passport, that you are going to show migraciones. They don't have to be certified copies. In my case, migraciones kept the copies and gave me back the originals. The only original they kept was the antecedentes paper.

[Kevins]

Yesterday I sent my passport (USA) to be renewed. Supposedly it is a two week process and it expires end of year.

You order DHL to pick up your passport, photos, application, creditcard permission to pay new passport fee and deliver to the embassy in Bunos aires.

You wait two week they advises and you agree for DHL to deliver to address you declare and they deliver.

Total cost (two 50 peso dhls+ 75 U$S new passport fee + 2 photos 30 Pesos)

About 110 dollars and never once line or leave my house.

So now I will see how it really works.

[Thomaso276]

Argie passport is now about a two hour ordeal for the whole process. Recently helped someone get one and it was delivered in 2 weeks!