Renting Property

[Hunt99]

Mongers-

"Argentina, for the most part, is the closest thing to the wild west anywhere, aside from some African countries. And chances are it will forever remain like this, in between short periods of calmness."- a quote from a post by a knowlegeable monger made on this forum. I really believe that this principle needs to be applied in many situations, both business and personal, when conducting one's self in this country. In the "wild west", as in Argentina, the law only goes so far and everything outside the enforceable law comes down to advantages of leverage and position.

The international anti-corruption organization Transparency International does a yearly ranking of countries according to the honesty exhibited in the legal system and business relations.

Argentina ranks at number 97, below such paragons of virtute as Gabon, Benin, Rwanda, Lebanon, and Burinka Faso. (But hey! They're still ahead of Haiti, Afghanistan, and Somalia!)

Now, in cases where corruption is rife and the legal system dishonest, I would not say that you should never consider doing business there. But the greater the amount of corruption, the greater the opportunity for return - in theory. But I know of no foreign investors in Argentina who have created anything for themselves except migraine headaches. Like the Loch Ness monster, a successful foreign businessman probably exists, but his sightings are few and far between.

[Moore]

However, like I said, I was prepared to retaliate, and if they tried to without some or all the $$$ I was ready to destroy an equivelent amount of property.

That sounds like the mentality of a trailerpark/slum dweller and/or someone on a steroid rampage. Since justice here is slow/unreliable, leverage your position absolutely (thats why there are garantias), but destroying property accomplishes nothing and is totally uncalled for in any non-criminal situation.

"Trust but verify" or, better yet, Trust but Collateralize.

[Rock Harders]

Mongers-

"Argentina, for the most part, is the closest thing to the wild west anywhere, aside from some African countries. And chances are it will forever remain like this, in between short periods of calmness."- a quote from a post by a knowlegeable monger made on this forum. I really believe that this principle needs to be applied in many situations, both business and personal, when conducting one's self in this country. In the "wild west", as in Argentina, the law only goes so far and everything outside the enforceable law comes down to advantages of leverage and position.

I rented an apartment on Parana between Santa Fe and Marcelo T. tor 5 months recently and had absolutely zero problems with either the real estate women or the owner of the apartment. On roughly every 20th day of the month, one of the owners kids, who were roughly my age (20's) and the real estate women would come to the apartment at time of my convenience and collect the rent, and I would sign a new contract. One time the toilet broke and began leaking, and I made one phone call and the owner was at the apartment and had the problem fixed the same day. Several months later, the pipe under my bathroom floor was leaking and flooding the apartment beneath mine- an architect and plumber came, and I could not use my bathroom for 6 days- I demanded compensation and they gave me a prorated share off the next months rent.

Even though these people had been honest and accomodating the entire time, and I doubted they would try to fuck me out of my one month's rent ($500 USD) security deposit, I was ready to retaliate if they made any scummy moves. When the day came to fork over the apartment, they came to take it over about 4 hours before my flight was scheduled to leave EZE and game me back the entire security deposit, in USD, without even really looking at the apartment to check for damage. Keep in mind this was a fully furnished apartment, TV, DVD, stereo, fully equipped kitchen, etc. However, like I said, I was prepared to retaliate, and if they tried to without some or all the $$$ I was ready to destroy an equivelent amount of property. Bottom line, use your leverage, but these people were totally honest and if anyone wants the website I got my apartment from PM me.

Suerte,

Dirk Diggler

[Moore]

I fully believe in doing business ethically but you have to cover your ass here because a high % of people will screw you over if you let them. I don't plan on scamming anyone but I will have real recourse if my landlord pulls something. I think that many Argentines don't view themselves as assholes for doublecrossing someone, even a good customer/tenant/employer/employee that has treated them well. Its simply the only environment they know. Possibly they even believe that you rightfully deserve to be doublecrossed if you allow it to happen.

[Thomaso276]

Bought a place. Completely remodeled it over three months, much more room, quieter and a permanent home for me. Moved in with two weeks left on lease. Could not wait to move on. Had no interest in staying there at the rental.

I understand your point and your hefty deposit and I would take steps now to protect that large amount of money. In my case, the money is not as important as the principle. I have no interest in cheating anyone out of their rightful expenses or their right to rent to someone else. Recoleta Royalty is right.

Unlike some folks down here, I try to be fair in dealing with legal or relationship issues. Just because someone else is an asshole doesn't mean I have to be.

By the way, if you have a complaint it is against the property owner not necessarily the representative.

[Hunt99]

Which leads me to a question: would you buy real estate in Mendoza as a mid-term investment?

Only after I have a frontal lobotomy. ;)

[Moore]

When you say you'll never have to deal with this again, does that mean either you bought a place or are leaving BA?

Regarding the 1600 peso deposit, as you say US$500 is probably not worth battling over. However, you should be the one calling the shots since you are occupying the apartment. If you refuse to leave (no longer paying rent of course) the landlord will probably be lucky to have you evicted by the year 2010 based on what I know. Thats why most require garantias, which is basically a lien on the guarantors property. They may have your p1600 deposit, but you have their US$150k apartment. Leverage favor to you, big time. Unfortunately you have to assume "guerilla warfare" rules here even when leasing an apt.

My lease expires in a few months and I may not be renewing. I have a year's rent down as a deposit (no garantia and the owner didnt want a prepay) so the amount is material. Believe me I will not be vacating that apartment without the refunded deposit in cash in my wallet. If it takes them a year to cough it up than thats a year of rent-free Recoleta living for me. The landlords have been decent most of the time, but I don't trust them.

And in my case the "landlord", the person I always deal with and pay, is a guy but the actual owner is his Mommy.;) Same old story, they represent themselves as Recoleta Royalty but argue over a few pesos. And when we signed the lease you would have thought we were closing a $10 billion dollar deal (their lawyers present, etc).

[Thomaso276]

Yep, prepaid; but the deposit was less than one month's rent. I can afford the loss, after all they have the money. Blood from a stone concept. Just like in USA sometimes it is more trouble than it is worth for a few hundred dollars. Neither system here or in USA is setup for small recovery. In Florida small claims court can award damages but then you have to go to circuit court to pursue the claim if defendant refuses to pay.

I have not officially been denied the proper return of deposit until 30 days after the lease ends. Until then I have suffered no loss or damages. The owner, who is Arg. But lives in USA, may fold and return the proper amount. I wonder if he declared the foreign investment income to the IRS or AFIP here in Argentina.

His representative here is BA is his mommy! She is the one telling me what I have to pay for. No sense in arguing right now, except I told her I was not responsible for these issues. She gave nothing substantial in writing and kind of dropped the ball when it comes to legal issues she must adhere to.

Anyway, the apartment is on Callao in Recoleta. Some real estate guy was there when I signed off, but I don't know who is listing it. If you are looking at an apartment in the area PM me for address.

[Jaimito Cartero]

Did you have to prepay the rent? I think many people just stop paying rent the last few months.

[AllIWantIsLove]

Why not just post the address and name of the landlord? That way anyone doing a search will be aware of the way this landlord deals with tenants.

Bob

[Thomaso276]

Okay, so last week I closed out my rented apartment and had the landlord's representative (his mommy) tell me I had to pay to paint the place. Without getting into too many specifics, his mommy misrepresents every issue that is not in her favor and uses the contract when it is to her advantage. Needless to say I knew two years ago they would try to cheat me on the deposit.

The contract specifically calls for final utility bills to be paid and any damage done or missing items. Paint, cleaning curtains, etc. is not considered damage (salvo el desgaste natural producido por el buen uso why el tiempo - "save the natural wear produced by the good use and the time" according to the contract) As well, mommy never made any claims - other than verbal complaints about how much money they lost since the crash - about repairs, broken windows, missing items, etc. Typical as well are their stories about country homes, country clubs, trips abroad, other properties owned. It really bugs me when rich folks complain about a few dollars. I guess that is why they are rich.

I will keep posting as this develops but it is another example of locals with money trying to take advantage. I have no plan to simply give these folks 1600 pesos. We'll see how it develops.

Contract calls for both parties to go through the Tribunales Ordinarios de Primera Instancia en los Civil de la Capital Federal, which I am guessing is a small claims venue, for any claims. For example, if I was a problem tenant they could have evicted me without going through the drawn out landlord tenant process.

PM me if you want an address to avoid. As well they are raising the rent at least 50%.

I never have to deal with this BS again. Landlords here can be a real pain in the ass.

[Out for Flesh]

My guess is that in general, local rents are the same number that the companies that cater to foreigners ask for, except in pesos instead of dollars (a $800 US foreign rent would go for $800 AR if a local rented it on his own.

This is interesting because it basically matches what I realized: anything which costs X Euros (in Madrid) should (roughly) go for X AR$ in BsAs. Anyhing more than that may be a rip-off.

Of course things may be different in other parts of the country. For example, I found housing in Mendoza ridiculously cheap compared to Madrid.

Which leads me to a question: would you buy real estate in Mendoza as a mid-term investment?

[El Perro]

You do not need a DNI, you may need a guarantor. Offer cash for the term of the lease or a good portion of it to avoid gurantor problem, because no one here will sign for you! They are usually worthless anyway becasue alot of property owners are selling guarantee signature and landlords know that the property being promised may have 25 other promises attached to it.

Rest assured you can rent down here.

Resting assured! Will continue the quest for suitable digs. Much thanks!

[Thomaso276]

You do not need a DNI, you may need a guarantor. Offer cash for the term of the lease or a good portion of it to avoid gurantor problem, because no one here will sign for you! They are usually worthless anyway becasue alot of property owners are selling guarantee signature and landlords know that the property being promised may have 25 other promises attached to it.

Rest assured you can rent down here.

[El Perro]

I was given some info today by an expat that I thought was downright wrong, or at best alarmist. He contended that "foreigners" must have a DNI to rent anything other than a short term rental, AND must have a "guarantor", somebody who is local and can essentially put up property as collateral, should the foreigner skip town, or whatever. All this was news to me. I am just starting the process of looking for a long term rental, and I don't have a DNI. Can anybody weigh in on this?

The dog

Hi DB,

I've rented three properties in the four years I've been in BA, including my apartment in Recoleta and, of course, the Mansion in Vicente Lopez.

I've NEVER been asked for a DNI, and I've NEVER supplied a guarantee. Oh, of course they've always asked for a guarantee, but I've always ignored them, made my offers without including a guarantee, and obviously they accepted.

It's all negotiable.

Thanks,

Jackson