Renting Property

[Andres]

I find your posts on the subject of business in Argentina very informative and forthright, the business ethics and attitude you describe explain the political state of the countryl. Someone once said that every society deserves their own form of government.

It is difficult for me to imagine this theory applying to the people of argentina who appear to have such wonderful attitudes. Appearances however can be deceiving and I believe that there is a reason for everything. What is worrysome is that the chicas must also bear this toxic strain.

I'm curious; what kind of business are you in and what do your companies do. Briefly what general industries are worthwhile exploring here and since most business are not run in an ethical manner do opportunities exist for an ethical operator to purchase and improve on the operation of existing businesses?

I will refer some local practices that I experienced and that I may be the ones Saint refers to.

1) No planning / no scheduling and no commitment of resources: Roughly 10 years ago, I had to launch a new line of business inside a multinational company in BA. Our sales manager sold 4 projects, and I was told to do manage and implement these projects simultaneously (in 4 different cities) BEFORE commiting resources to such division.

The basic procedure was the following: Start working in one project (myself and a couple of temporary assistants) and not paying attention to the next one until either I finished my job there or the client sent a fax / registered letter threatening with legal actions of contract fines. When the latter happened, top management started drawing people from other divisions and throwing them to me praying that I can train them in the new line of business in minutes so that they could hit and run.

Needless to say, the company didn't earn big credibility in that line of business.

I'm talking about a North American multinational company, by that time the most important in Argentina regarding that area.

2) Nepotism: This happens everywhere, but is more pervasive in Latin America. Either in local or multinational companies, you will be flabbergasted of how many couples / brothers / etc work together in the same company and often at the same division. Family / friendship links usually prevail over competence.

3) Bad ethics of lack of ethics: I witnessed several meetings and conversations in which managers / CEOs deny the rights of some customers despite explicitly acknowledging it and try to manipulate that to the limits. Example: A customer that bought an equipment from one of the companies that I worked for claimed for the unavoidable accessory tools that were expected to come with the unit. My boss said that these tools were stripped from the original packages to make a "side business", and that they were released for free only to customers who bought above a certain amount.

When pointing out some remarks, bosses always told me "If the customer is not happy, they should look for providers elsewhere".

It is possible that, in all the previous explanations, you don't see much of a big issue, but what is important is to perceive a common trend: Not caring very much for customer satisfaction or for professionalism.

Hope this helps,

Andres

[Rudolph]

MCSE,

You are way off base. I'm not saying I'm having any problems with the locals that ANYONE wouldn't have. The system is broke here. That is plain and simple.

I have 15 full-time employees who are all locals. They are the ones that mostly deal with the problems. Not me. I know how to deal with the system here. I have 3 successful companies here in Argentina with several more coming along. What I posted is the facts. No, they didn't do it out of "revenge". The truth remains that the way many locals conduct themselves is deplorable. That is the TRUTH and the FACTS. I'm not sure what you are talking about respect. I respect everyone. This has nothing to do with respect. I get respect because I give respect. You don't know me so I'm not sure how you can make a post like you did. You are way off base. I don't go into business thinking I'm superior. I think those in the business community here will tell you that I conduct business with dignity, ethics and honor. While I may think the way I do business is superior, I don't think I'm superior. Again, you are off base.

Also, I'm not sure why you mentioned respecting girls. Most that know me know that I probably respect women more than anyone on this board. Jackson knows this fact as well. I do enjoy the local culture or I wouldn't be living here. What I posted is the truth and if you can't accept that then you need to open your eyes.

As Thomaso posted, the tone of your post is very very edgy. I met you and you are a nice guy. I remember I tried getting your assistance when I moved here that ended up with a disaster. Even though you were a local I told you that I wanted to move in on a property and I wanted to make an offer immediately. You kept saying to wait and I lost the property that I wanted. One thing I know is how to do business. It doesn't matter if I'm in the USA, China, Argentina or Russia. The fact that I have achieved a lot of success in a short amount of time has proven that.

I accept that I am in Argentina. I love this country but I accept truths about it. Just as I love the USA I don't pretend that there aren't problems there. I take offense to your post and I'm not sure where it is coming from.

I have no problems with the locals. They are very friendly and I've NEVER experienced problems. What I was talking about is business. Consider that Transparency International (which is well respected around the world) ranks Argentina as one of the most corrupt countries in the world to do business in.

http://www.transparency.org/cpi/2004...n.html#cpi2004

Only worse are countries like Libya, Ethiopia, Honduras, Zimbabwe, Niber, Sudan, Iraq, Kenya, Angola, Chad, Nigeria and Haiti. Pretty shady company huh?

MCSE - You are way off base. I've met you. You may have lived here longer but I'm sure I have more financial dealings and more business interaction here in just one year than you may have had your entire time in Buenos Aires. That isn't bragging. That is just the plain truth. My companies interact with some of the largest banks, investment houses, accounting firms, legal firms, etc. Guess what the first thing that most of the locals tell me at the beginning of the meeting? "I apologize ahead of time for the way our country is and the system is broken". That is the truth. That is the one thing most of people start off the meeting with.

Thomaso - Thanks for your thoughtful post. You are also American and you deal with the way things here are on a daily basis so I'm SURE you know what I'm talking about. Every American I have met here has agreed with my comments. I think most will agree that my posts have been spot on over the years on Buenos Aires. Thanks again.

Saint

I find your posts on the subject of business in Argentina very informative and forthright, the business ethics and attitude you describe explain the political state of the countryl. Someone once said that every society deserves their own form of government.

It is difficult for me to imagine this theory applying to the people of argentina who appear to have such wonderful attitudes. Appearances however can be deceiving and I believe that there is a reason for everything. What is worrysome is that the chicas must also bear this toxic strain.

I'm curious; what kind of business are you in and what do your companies do. Briefly what general industries are worthwhile exploring here and since most business are not run in an ethical manner do opportunities exist for an ethical operator to purchase and improve on the operation of existing businesses?

[Exon123]

Yes Indeed,

Exon is looking for an Apartment for at least a one year lease.

Ive decided I want to spend more time down here and need my own place.

I'm planning on spending between $800 & $1,000 per month.

I might entertain the thought of another Monger going in with me for a bigger place in the neighborhood of $1,500 to $2,000 per month in Rent.

I'm only interested in Renting only, I'm not about to invest in the Argentine real estate market as I don't trust their economy nor their politics.

Any help or Query's would be appreciated.

Many thanks in advance.

Exon

[Spassmusssein]

-since a few months AFIP recomends also a copy and the original of your contract of renting your apartement.

You should bring this as well to avoid waiting 4 hours and beeing sent back (as they love to do.

The responsible AFIP-agency is usually No 50, in Hipolito Yrigoyen 2251, floor 1 or 3.
Ask at Info-desk if your paperwork is sufficient, sometimes they also ask for copy of the appartement-owner's title of property... ;(

[Saint]

Hi Thomaso,

Yes, you need a CDI number as a foreigner to purchase property here. It's a bit time consuming to get it but not difficult. I did it myself to learn how to do it. You go to your local police station. (There is one on Las Heras between Callao and Ayacucho) Bring your passport and a copy of your passport. Tell them you want to apply for a CDI #. They will have you fill out a form and then you list your address of your local apartment (or hotel room) The next day an officer will bring you this paper and verify that you are there. I've heard conflicting information that you have to be home. Others told me you didn't and someone could sign for you. Probably best to be there waiting. The cost a little over a year ago was only 10 pesos.

You go to the main AFIP office downtown and you bring that paper. Take a #, get in line and make sure to have 2 photocopies of your passport. You wait in line (I waited several hours) and then you get up there and an official simply stamps your paper. He writes in a CDI # and this is your CDI number for Argentina. For those wondering, a CDI # is a tax ID number similar to our Social Security # in the USA.

It is necessary to purchase property here including a property or an automobile.

Good luck.

Saint

[Thomaso276]

Can anyone advise if I need the CUIL, CUIT or CDI to buy property here? And where do I get this number, I am in Recolleta.

Thanks

[MCSE]

They are very friendly and I've NEVER experienced problems. What I was talking about is business. Consider that Transparency International (which is well respected around the world) ranks Argentina as one of the most corrupt countries in the world to do business in.

I've posted that since you were complained because some guy stole a toilet after a transaction, again, I find it an extremely unnecesary behavior (from him) It's easy to realize that he mite did that as a revenge against you, so I ask you: what you did or what attitude you had to receive back that kind of recation?

MCSE - You are way off base. I've met you. You may have lived here longer but I'm sure I have more financial dealings and more business interaction here in just one year than you may have had your entire time in Buenos Aires. That isn't bragging. That is just the plain truth. My companies interact with some of the largest banks, investment houses, accounting firms, legal firms, etc. Guess what the first thing that most of the locals tell me at the beginning of the meeting? "I apologize ahead of time for the way our country is and the system is broken". That is the truth. That is the one thing most of people start off the meeting with.

And that's the behavior I'm talking about.

Best Regards

[MCSE]

With my current lease I showed all the respect in the world to the landlady during the deal. When I had to show her proof of income, my pension, she remarked that I could pay more for the apartment and tried to raise the price! When I looked at an apartment that was for sale, the owner told me no new apartments in BA had lighting fixtures, finished floors or air conditioning. Of course I had viewed several that were complete.

The problem is renting property today is devaluated compared to Y2k.

Buying real estate works in US dollars and long term rent is in pesos. Many owners feels they should rise the prices but they simple can't since workers wage is in AR pesos.

Trying to obtain a discount based on value for money in Argentina I don't reccomend, always better claim I don't have more than this and this is what I can pay for your product. Check out http://www.deremate.com.ar (argentinean ebay) and look on Q & A reasons to ask discounts on any product offered.

Also, a real estate broker that lies it's common everywhere, any country.

Showing respect for the other person it's a rule of gold everywhere, also, must be sincere since people sometimes they realize that you show a "fake" respect. I'm not saying you have to "humilliate" yourself nor anything like that. Just be honest, and expect they respect you back.

[Saint]

MCSE,

You are way off base. I'm not saying I'm having any problems with the locals that ANYONE wouldn't have. The system is broke here. That is plain and simple.

I have 15 full-time employees who are all locals. They are the ones that mostly deal with the problems. Not me. I know how to deal with the system here. I have 3 successful companies here in Argentina with several more coming along. What I posted is the facts. No, they didn't do it out of "revenge". The truth remains that the way many locals conduct themselves is deplorable. That is the TRUTH and the FACTS. I'm not sure what you are talking about respect. I respect everyone. This has nothing to do with respect. I get respect because I give respect. You don't know me so I'm not sure how you can make a post like you did. You are way off base. I don't go into business thinking I'm superior. I think those in the business community here will tell you that I conduct business with dignity, ethics and honor. While I may think the way I do business is superior, I don't think I'm superior. Again, you are off base.

Also, I'm not sure why you mentioned respecting girls. Most that know me know that I probably respect women more than anyone on this board. Jackson knows this fact as well. I do enjoy the local culture or I wouldn't be living here. What I posted is the truth and if you can't accept that then you need to open your eyes.

As Thomaso posted, the tone of your post is very very edgy. I met you and you are a nice guy. I remember I tried getting your assistance when I moved here that ended up with a disaster. Even though you were a local I told you that I wanted to move in on a property and I wanted to make an offer immediately. You kept saying to wait and I lost the property that I wanted. One thing I know is how to do business. It doesn't matter if I'm in the USA, China, Argentina or Russia. The fact that I have achieved a lot of success in a short amount of time has proven that.

I accept that I am in Argentina. I love this country but I accept truths about it. Just as I love the USA I don't pretend that there aren't problems there. I take offense to your post and I'm not sure where it is coming from.

I have no problems with the locals. They are very friendly and I've NEVER experienced problems. What I was talking about is business. Consider that Transparency International (which is well respected around the world) ranks Argentina as one of the most corrupt countries in the world to do business in.

http://www.transparency.org/cpi/2004...n.html#cpi2004

Only worse are countries like Libya, Ethiopia, Honduras, Zimbabwe, Niber, Sudan, Iraq, Kenya, Angola, Chad, Nigeria and Haiti. Pretty shady company huh??

MCSE - You are way off base. I've met you. You may have lived here longer but I'm sure I have more financial dealings and more business interaction here in just one year than you may have had your entire time in Buenos Aires. That isn't bragging. That is just the plain truth. My companies interact with some of the largest banks, investment houses, accounting firms, legal firms, etc. Guess what the first thing that most of the locals tell me at the beginning of the meeting? "I apologize ahead of time for the way our country is and the system is broken". That is the truth. That is the one thing most of people start off the meeting with.

Thomaso - Thanks for your thoughtful post. You are also American and you deal with the way things here are on a daily basis so I'm SURE you know what I'm talking about. Every American I have met here has agreed with my comments. I think most will agree that my posts have been spot on over the years on Buenos Aires. Thanks again.

Saint

[Lunico]

Being a dark skinned Mexican and having traveled to Ag twice in the last 6 months I'd like to share some experiences. Overall Ag is one of the friendliest places I've been too. Every now and then you will have a small negative experience, but the good far outweigh the bad. I've only had one person say something deragatory to me, he called me poo poo in spanish as I passed him in the hall of the apt from where I was renting. What was funny was that he was about 5ft nothing and 300lbs. I'm thinking, serious self-esteem issues here!

BA is more friendly then Germany, Missouri and even certain parts of Mexico where I've had much worse experiences then being sassed by a rolly polly midget. Realistically you can't be loved by all people all the time. So, just try to get along. Every country makes fun of everyone else and the igorant don't know where to draw the line tweenst joking around and offending strangers. I mean, in Germany some red light girls wouldn't cater to dark skinned people. I mean, who cares? Find one who will, your there to bust a nut not fall in love.

As long as my person is not being threatened then people can sneer and cuss or whatever. Block my walking path, now thats just annoying!

But really, AG is great. I love the people (most of them) women are beautiful, accomodating, the architecture is nice and so is the weather. And with a 3-1 exchange rate, why vacation anywhere else?

Cheers gents, and don't let some small incident ruin your day or cause you to stereotype a whole country.

Lunico

[Daddy Rulz]

I agree with a lot of points you make. MCSE does raise an interesting point. I do see and hear a lot of racial slurs in BsAs, not just to Asians, Blacks, Yanquis etc. But directed to other Latins. I think it has something to do with the hetrogeneus (sp) nature of the society. I have heard more than one person say horrible things about Mexicans, and to a lot of people in Argentina the fols from northern South America might as well be a different species. This in no way lessons my feelings towards Argentines in general. For the vast majority they are some of the friendliest people I've ever met (Australians exempted) but I do notice it.

Negotiating: If you are respectful most folks here see it as weakness and will try to exploit it. I agree, if your the one with the money you can't take a hard enough stance.

[Thomaso276]

MCSE,

The tone of your reply is edgy. Even though I have never had dealings with Saint I have enjoyed some of his posts and his sharing of information on real estate issues here. Others have pointed out his help and advice and some have problems with his posts. It is what makes this board interesting. Everyone has an opinion. Personal and philosophical conflicts are understandable. But I have to stand up for him here. Although race relations play a large part in good and bad interactions throughout the world, advising someone to change their ways because of their race is wrong. I have run into a few (very few) anti-American folks here. I don't change my ways, I simply do not interact with them afterwards.

I do not know if there is a language barrier and maybe your message is lost in translation but your comments bring issues into play that seem like excuses based on race. No man is expected to act differently because of his race, to bow down to appease another's perceptions. In fact, if he does, there will be no respect established. I understand what you are trying to say but it comes off wrong.

While I agree that showing respect will usually garner respect in return, I do not agree that this applies to business situations, especially here. Saint's success is due to his work ethic, marketing, financial gambles and confidence. I have had good and bad dealings here over the years.

With my current lease I showed all the respect in the world to the landlady during the deal. When I had to show her proof of income, my pension, she remarked that I could pay more for the apartment and tried to raise the price! When I looked at an apartment that was for sale, the owner told me no new apartments in BA had lighting fixtures, finished floors or air conditioning. Of course I had viewed several that were complete.

Finally, Argentina went begging to China seveal months ago for trade and investment agreements. When the Chinese minister left BA without Kirchner's approval on certain points (that favored Chinese interests) and no agreement, to travel south, he was contacted the next day and Argentina agreed to accept the Chinese proposals. That is how you negotiate when you have money and someone else does not. Get up and walk away. How many posts have there been about chicas proposing outrageous prices only to be left at the table. How many posts have there been that the chica dropped the demands when we walk away or start talking to another chica.

My advice to Saint: do whatever makes you happy and successful. The hell with everyone else.

[MCSE]

The locals can be really horrible to work with. I learned this first hand. In the beginning I would do people a favor. One guy I let him stay in the apartment just one extra night after the closing. I didn't get a security deposit because I reasoned there was nothing to steal. The apartment was empty. Wrong. He stole the toilet seats, the on / off gas valve, the fixtures to the sinks. Nothing was of any real value but it was clear to me to see how many locals are.

Saint:

I belive that a good reason for you to have such problems with the locals MAY be you don't speek the language, and I guess that you start your relationship by feeling you think you are supperior to the 'locals'.

I also had bad experiences with some argentineans, but in real estate I have some experience dealing with both buyers and sellers and let me disagree with you at this point since "stealing toilet seats" should be an expected behavior only in a very-poor-disaster-neighborhood. I've never ever heared something like that!

May be they did that to you as a revenge? Just to demonstrate you they can fuck you?

My advice to this stop happen to you it's to show respect to the other person.

There is also a very different way to deal with argentineans. When you are nice to them and you show respect, they will also respect you.

Regards.

ps: I had no intention to offend anyone on the original post. I've just got shocked because such reactions against Saint and I've tried to find an explanation.

[Saint]

Moore,

Great. Part of the problem I had with that first lease is that the wording in the contract was vague. It said the deposit will be returned after verifying that the bills were all paid. Anyway, that was a few years ago and I learned a lot since then. I just moved out of my apartment I leased last year and I'm happy to report I did get all of my money back. The strategy you used is good but often times doing something in theory and in real life is too different things. You get busy and you just eat the loss sometimes which is what I did.

You live here so you know how it is. I own 3 corporations here and as you mentioned, things get very dicey but real estate is one of the most unregulated industries here. I could tell you horror stories from people that ran into problems when they bought their property. I just helped a woman get back a $US 9,000 scam tax not too long ago.

As you mentioned, it's best not to go against the law. I'm sure things will work out fine for you. Good luck.

Saint

Andres - I missed your excellent post that you posted above. You are absolutely correct. Never let anyone move into the property until all the funds are secured. I am buying on average 1 new property per week. Most of the people I am buying from are upgrading into a bigger apartment. The majority of them want to do the closing on the same day as their new property because they simply don't have the money to close until they sell their previous property. If a deal falls apart, they can't buy their new property.

Also, on the flip side of the coin....never let someone stay in the apartment past the sales date without a significant deposit and a contract signed by a competent lawyer. Ocassionally you will have a seller that wants to sell their apartment but they have no where to go. Sometimes they will make it a condition of the sale to let them stay in a little longer. It's not a big deal if you get a contract by your lawyer and also make them pay a sizable damage deposit. There is no incentive being a "nice guy" in Argentina on real estate deals. The locals can be really horrible to work with. I learned this first hand. In the beginning I would do people a favor. One guy I let him stay in the apartment just one extra night after the closing. I didn't get a security deposit because I reasoned there was nothing to steal. The apartment was empty. Wrong. He stole the toilet seats, the on/off gas valve, the fixtures to the sinks. Nothing was of any real value but it was clear to me to see how many locals are.

[Moore]

Saint,

Believe me I have no naive delusions about how things work here. I've been living in BA for several years and have a fair amount of experience in local business and law, but not in real estate. That the real estate sector is as dicey as everything else isnt shocking.

In my case, with a large deposit, I will not be accepting any "the check's in the mail" promises. I can't believe that anyone would, except when you're about a few hundred dollars which would not be a huge loss. Tons of people disregard the law here, but I'd still rather not be going against the law. The contract says the deposit will be returned upon vacating the department, it does not say 30 days after vacating it. Granted, contracts don't necessarily count for shit here. Therefore, I will leave the apartment with the returned deposit in cash in my hand, period. If that involves some waiting and rent-free living in Recoleta, then so be it.