Renting Property

[One Tree Hill]

Democracy without ethics = poverty and corruption. Hence Latin American will never fully develop like its anglo/Euro friends in other parts of the world (US, Europe, England, Aussie, New Zealand, Canada etc,) Sad but true. At least that keeps pussy cheap for the gringos.

[Saint]

Moore,

Wishing thinking your post of, "She also said that my deposit legally must be returned (less any deductions for damaged items) upon vacating the apartment even if I break the lease early". Trust me. Many people here don't care about what the law is. I leased several apartments for the past few years. My first several apartments I never got all the deposit back. One I got no money back at all!

Moore - It doesn't matter what the law is. The locals are masters at evading taxes and withholding funds that are due to you. I remember my first few leases I returned the apartment in perfect condition, I bought a bed with my own money because the owner's bed broke. I let them keep the bed, I fixed several things on my own and they still did NOT return my deposit. NONE OF IT. When I asked for a reason they told me they would send it within 30 days after verifying none of the utility bills were abnormally high. I waited and waited. It was about u$s 700. They stopped returning calls and then finally one day I went to the owner's house and asked and they told me that I was a good tenant but they weren't going to return the deposit. They told me I could sue them and go through the legal system which would probably take 3 years. They wished me good luck.

This was in 2003. I did get a lawyer and filed paperwork. Not so much for the money but moreso because of the principle. It's almost the end of 2005 and no word. In short, don't expect things to work based on what is "legal". The locals are masters at cheating, lying and stealing. There is a reason why there is a guarantee system. Leasing a higher end apartment without prepaying the entire lease upfront or having a good guarantee is difficult. Many locals are hesitant to be a guarantee. They are putting the title to their property up. Many times you can't sell your property while it is being used as a guarantee.

It's also a reason why many locals are no longer dealing with their fellow local citizens. I don't deal with any locals. The few times when I rented to locals I had problems in the apartment. Many locals have no respect and no ethics. Sad...

Beware and good luck.

[Spassmusssein]

You can try to fool, but also you can choose to be honest.

False garanties brake always, just take away your money.

There are honest real estate brokers in that city. I do buss with those.

As I mentioned: give 2 or 3 month's deposit and contract a monthly, revolving payment.

You will get it.

PM me if you want to have it this way.

It's just a help from my side, not my business, as I am living here on my own ideas.

[Moore]

Thanks for the responses guys. At least some of you havent been personally burned recently.

A lawyer friend of mine returned one of my messages today and confirmed a lot of what you wrote. One discrepancy - she said the penalty for breaking a lease, which is normally for 24 months, is about 1.5 months rent if breaking before month 6 and 1 months rent for breaking after month 6. Either way, thats not a big penalty. Although this is not specified in my contract, she said it is widely known and also clearly stated by civil law code.

She also said that my deposit legally must be returned (less any deductions for damaged items) upon vacating the apartment even if I break the lease early. I know that once you give someone money here, whether in the form of a loan, deposit, tax retention, etc, it does seem less likely that money will ever be seen again. But I'm taking the leap of faith. I will have some leverage since I will be residing in the asset effectively collaterized by my one-year deposit.

A couple of you mentioned buying and rigging garantias. I recommend not doing this. After being turned down by all my Argentine friends with property in Capital, I made a last ditch effort and visited one of the places that sell garantias. They'll give you one and you only have to pay (the equivalent of one months rent) if your potential landlord accepts it. So I took this document (deed for a similarly-valued property in Once) to the landlord and he said he'd check it out. He called me back some days later informing me that the property got about 20 "hits" per day. Not surprsingly, it was a totally worthless and used-up garantia; there is obviously a system to verify these.

[Andres]

There are a bunch of thugs linked to the Federal Police who provide this service for around USD 3,000. It is expensive, but cheaper than to replace the whole furniture and decoration destroyed by an angry tenant at the verge of eviction.

Mobs, lawyers, police officers, etc, profit from a slow and cumbersome renting system. It is not an "accident" that this system is inefficient, it is desing to work like that.

Hope this helps,

Andres

[Daddy Rulz]

I'm me, a friend of the family does this. He's a wonderful old guy that walks like a penguin named Billy. He lived in the EEUU for a few years and thinks he speaks English. The garantia will be trutcho (sp) but should work. I have no idea about his rates shop him and if hes ripping you off go elsewhere, but I suspect he might cut you a break with a referal. Talking to him is worth the price of a coffee even if you don't do business.

[Saint]

Both Spassmusssein and Thomaso are absolutely correct. It just depends on the owner. Many are getting stricter about having a guarantor but generally Americans and foreigners are favored over locals for renting property. Over the years I've leased many properties. Even now I lease several properties. It makes it MUCH easier now that I own several properties and have references from prominent owners that I have rented from over the years. Many now don't make me pay anything in advance and only a one month security deposit. Still, you should know that even if you own property you usually can't act as your own guanantor.

Some apartments typically in really great buildings are tougher. I had to have a guarantor for the new apartment that I'm in now. I moved to a really great apartment on Ave. Alvear right near the Alvear Palace. I had to have a guarantor even though I offered to pay the entire 2 years upfront. I didn't have to end up paying in advance but you will find a good strategy with the locals is to prepay and ask for a substancial discount. Many owners like the safety of getting paid up front so they will offer you a good discount. Also, it can be a good strategy for you as well to lock in the rate no matter what happens with prices. I would guess that the u$s 1,500/month rent that I'm paying now will approach upwards of u$s 2,000/month by next year. Pricey but it's a "Palace". At least I have the price locked in for 2 years.

As the other fellas mentioned, typical legal leases here are 24 months (2 years) Good luck.

[Thomaso276]

I have had three leases here. The first was for one year, paid up front with a one month deposit. It was for a grand apartment on Quintana at $900 a month. Got my deposit back less the last months unpaid utility bills.

The second and current is for a modern 2BR 2 Ba also in Recoleta, building with pool, security, gym. Also paid one year up front and upon renewal this past March I paid the second year (with a 5% escalator in the lease) With this apartment I offered only a 2000 pesos deposit. This landlord is a little more profit driven and I am sure will try to stiff me for painting the whole place or some such BS. I know because when we renewed he moaned about undervalue of this years rent becasue rents had gone up and he could get 50% more than what I was paying.

Most other folks I have talked to can get by with 3 months advance rent and then pay monthly. Most deposits are one or two months only to cover unpaid utility bills and some possible damage. I personanly preferred the full year so I could relax and not worry about paying (plus this year my girlfriend understands that if I have the big one while we are playing she has a place to stay until March)

While the rules here are tough and some friends did not agree with me paying a full year, I would never give a full year deposit becasue I doubt you will see it again. Losing a couple hundred on some deposit is another story. You can buy garantia from ads in the Clarin.

Overall the landlords have not been a pain during my three years here. On the subject of garantia I remember telling one landlord (when I rented a small furnished apartment for my girlfriend for a few months - the third lease) who made a big deal out of needing a garantia that a year's rent was a true garantia and that if something happened to me no familiy member was going to fly down for my personal property (electronics, some furniture, etc. Then I pointed out that we were in Argentina where they guaranteed their bonds for all those investors! The took the up front money and two months deposits (this was a pesos deal)

Good luck, but it sounds like one year deposit is way off base. Pay the year, offer one month deposit and relax. If you have to leave after some time you only lose a few hundred bucks. If you have been negotiating for some time the apartment is not generating any money and the landlord will deal. I think sometimes here thereal estate is like the lady's. Some are waiting for the big night of $300 while the majority will take 100 pesos per hour.

[Spassmusssein]

... if you quit before month no. 12, you have to pay a fine of one month.

If you want to leave after month 13 your fine is half month.

"Deslocacion" of a tennant, who does not pay, will cost six months, since the new laws give higher protection to the landlord.

A skilled landlord always wears good English or Hungarian boots
(I recommend "Ludwig Reiter" or "Edward Green") to be able to open a door of a tennant, who does not pay, with a smart sidekick.

If you (as NOT having garantia) will pay 12 months, usually you will never see the money again. A good broker will find you landlords who will accept a deposit of 3-6 months and a revolving payment from the first month aside to be secure.

[Daddy Rulz]

My girlfriend tells me that because of the difficulty evicting people, most Argeninian evictions are done with a group of guys and a baseball bat. I don't know if there is any truth to this but I would consider it before not moving out.

As far as breaking a lease I'm clueless but I could email some friends if you would like.

[Moore]

Does anyone know about breaking apartment leases here? After months of negotiating I'm finally about to sign one. It is for 12 months. Like most people, I was unable to get a garantia. Therefore, the owner is requiring a year's rent as a deposit, which is better for him than the more common rent prepayment. I understand why he would want this - supposedly if a tenant decided in month 12 that he's not leaving and not paying anymore, the landlord would need a couple years in Argentine courts before he can legally remove him. I'm reading over the lease and it looks pretty standard. I've seen one before. It does not specify anything about what would happen if I wanted to leave before the 12-month period expired. I spoke with a few Argentine friends and they said they thought that normally you can break a lease after 6 mos without a penalty, and before 6 mos there might be a 1-2 month penalty. But Ive had nothing confirmed, and have no idea about my rather large deposit. I guess (I'd have some leverage if there was a disagreement and my landlord would not refund my deposit. I could say I'll vacate the apartment when and only when he refunds the deposit. I don't know how this works here.

Any advice appreciated.

[Jaimito Cartero]

Yes, always good to have cash in hand. Thanks for the heads up! Hopefully you'll get to hang onto the deposit, or resell it for a larger amount.

[Andres]

My family is selling an apartment I have and they found a buyer. This customer paid a couple thousand USD to secure the transaction signing a bill, with the remaining to be paid at the time of signing the final papers.

Meanwhile, this customer wanted to get their his furniture into the apartment. He affirmed his best intentions an mentioned a professional link that he had with one of the family members. However, he wasn't allowed to get his furniture inside.

Today, the inmobiliaria called me to mention that the transaction fell. Why? The buyer couldn't secure the money from an apartment he sold some time ago because his own buyer didn't pay him since posession.

Thanks God we didn't let him occupy the apartment!

NEVER EVER LET SOMEONE TAKE POSESSION OF YOUR SELLING PROPERTY BEFORE THE TOTAL CANCELLATION.

This may help you understand why people want cash for a transaction, and all before the transfer of property.

Hope this helps,

Andres

[Spassmusssein]

...one point in advance of member#1036 : never walk arround with big cash. I hope that saint NEVER advised someone to do that.
There are safe and cheap ways for the transport..."even just for 4 blocks"...a lot of investors got robbed, beaten or whatever as someone knew, they walked arround with money.
I am shure...saint will never be robbed here...(joke...sorry for his laptop) ;)
Prices are defined in the market, reading three days "classificados" will show you the exact bases depending on location.
There are FEW real estate brokers with 100% reputation and if you are depending on a "full service" (as lacking language, laws, notarys, taxnumbers eec.) you have got to pay.
Not everything must be payd in cash...I was helping a lot of new guys here for free or they insisted to invite me for a dinner...this is Southamerica ok?

[Miami Bob]

I've had very positive dealings with Saint. I'm sure that your experiences are as you report. His business has quickly expanded and likely is having some growing pains.