Argentine Economy

[BadMan]

I don't really think this goes in the AR thread, but then again, what does. I am glad you brought it up Benny. And BTW, I don't need to convince anyone, just have respect for other people and other ideas. You forgot to report on Ecuadors new president as well, Correa. Latin America belongs to latin americans, if you don't like their politics you can always move back to the U. S., so don't fret.

Badboy

[Thomaso276]

I think the Gov't is already subsidizing them so much they want a piece of ownership. Union wants them in too.

[Goblin]

Each of the handles "Goblin" and "jjgoinslow" contain material obviously written by two (or more) different persons. One is using American English and the other is not. It's extremely clear that two or more people are sharing each of these handles. In fact, the posts under the handle "Goblin" have stated both that Goblin is American and that he, she, or it is not.

.

I would like to know exactly what makes you think that I am not American? Have you seen my passport or are you as usual jumping to the wrong conclusions?

Goblin

[Goblin]

Hmmm. I unfortunately tend to forget how scarce a resource is critical thinking. US history is not monolithic. The existence of corruption does not preclude current or historical public works projects (even within such projects, the postal system and road buildout for example was the site of mucho political patronage as is I imagine the rebuilding of New Orleans today) History as with reality is under no obligation to present itself to you in an orderly fashion, it is instead quite messy. Obviously the USSR is quite a bit different than Cambodia, OF COURSE one can compare nations, some people spend their entire lives studying and writing about the historical parallels and discontinuities between the US and the USSR. I can see that having further historical or political discussion with you would be a real waste, so ill try to keep to the chica-related threads!

Jj

[Dickhead]

Each of the handles "Goblin" and "jjgoinslow" contain material obviously written by two (or more) different persons. One is using American English and the other is not. It's extremely clear that two or more people are sharing each of these handles. In fact, the posts under the handle "Goblin" have stated both that Goblin is American and that he, she, or it is not.

That leads to one or both of the following questions:

1) Why?

2) Who cares?

Neither one of these two handles has contributed anything of any value to the forum.

[Jjgoinslow]

Hmmm. I unfortunately tend to forget how scarce a resource is critical thinking. US history is not monolithic. The existence of corruption does not preclude current or historical public works projects (even within such projects, the postal system and road buildout for example was the site of mucho political patronage as is I imagine the rebuilding of New Orleans today) History as with reality is under no obligation to present itself to you in an orderly fashion, it is instead quite messy. Obviously the USSR is quite a bit different than Cambodia, OF COURSE one can compare nations, some people spend their entire lives studying and writing about the historical parallels and discontinuities between the US and the USSR. I can see that having further historical or political discussion with you would be a real waste, so ill try to keep to the chica-related threads!

Jj

[Moore]

I'm not sure what your point is Jj.

One day you post about the horribly corrupt "macro" level practices of the US govt but now you write that the govt is actually responsible for successes of the country such as developing the postal / road network.

You complain about the high US military spending but then praise the USSR. Comparing the USA to USSR (any decade) is somewhat like comparing the USA to Cambodia, albeit a Cambodia with a space program and nuclear submarines. There's an example of a niche market (USSR military) that you claim is the only market served by private enterprise - it was the only market being served by their centrally managed system.

I still suspect you could be Goblin, based more upon your bizarre nature than your "viewpoints". Maybe we'll have a thread called "Jjgoinslow's Opinions" shortly.

[Jjgoinslow]

Goblin,

Please rewrite that.

Mira, don't be lazy, if you are going to try and make such connections, at least take the time to do your research and read folks posts rather than stabbing in the dark.

For example, below is a quote from Goblin, and if you read both our posts on this board, you would reasonably conclude we offer quite different viewpoints. Or perhaps, I am creating alter egos for myself in order to manipulate you for some as yet unrevealed, but certainly diabolical purpose! HaHaHahahahahahahaha! Or maybe you are really the guy that thought you were being followed at the boliche?

Well, I won't wait for that well thought out response RE the argentine vs the US economy, thats not why we're here anyway!

Jj.

Goblin wrote:

I am beginning to believe that a relationship with an American warhog is even more impossible.

Really every woman in North America has developed herself into a different cultural reality by virtue of the varying ideologies that have been woven in our fragmented society. To be truthful I feel even more foreign in the company of our woman.

[OttoGraham]

Goblin,

Please rewrite that.

WTF? Are you suggesting that somebody might have access to more than one handle? That could never happen on this board!

[Moore]

Goblin,

Please rewrite that.

[Jjgoinslow]

Hah! Give an example of the opposite, that is: a government service which has been privatized and as a result became cheaper and more efficient.

The Postal System is an excellent example, private enterprise only attempts to compete in niches, because the PO is incredibly cheap and efficient. In fact, it is quite arguable that without government buildout we would not have ubiquity that we enjoy of communications systems in the US, direct public works projects built the Postal System as well as the roads to carry the mail. Furthermore government regs aided buildout with Telephone (although it was in fact a private monopoly for the most part during buildout, but a regulated one) Information services such as libraries have historically been public enterprises, whenever an information resource is privatized, it becomes more expensive. When communities or countries privatize or sell off their utilities, the prices generally go up as well and problems often arise with quality (water) or reliability (energy) Market fundamentalism is a nieve viewpoint of course because there is no such thing as a free market, there are businesses which compete in an unevenly subsidized field (military contractors, energy sector) or compete in an unevenly regulated field (communications) etc ad nosium, but there is no such thing as a free market. There is a myth that cold war russia was unable to keep up technologically, when in fact they were outpacing us in the 1950s (think sputnik) During the cold war (before russian went bankrupt attempting to keep up with the arms race) there was a lot of comparison going on between the soviet model of innovation and the US model, and industry in the US argued for federal subsidy because they could not produce products as cheaply as a centrally managed industry seen in the USSR.

I guess I broadened the discussion there, but I would argue for a healthy mix of public works (more than the US now has, unless you perceive military spending as a public works project! And a market economy which includes well regulated sectors and other where optimal, unregulated sectors.

A tangential point, with all the advocacy ive seen on this board for market liberalization (through the imf) it has widely been pointed out that the IMFs policies have been disastrous for any developing country which has fallen victum to them.

Has anyone seen the film (about argentina) The Take? By Naomi Klein and another whose name I forget. Its about the economic collapse.

Jj.

Jj,

Please can you list a few examples of a state-run enterprise providing a cheaper, more efficient product than a private enterprise.

I don't fully agree with your theory that corruption is more problematic at a micro level in Argentina and vice-versa in USA. Corruption seems rampant at all levels here from the street cop to the president of the country. Outright plunder probably is a better term than corruption. One major difference is that criminals are often prosecuted in USA. Measures and new regs are often put in place after a major problem to prevent recurrence. A US commoner who has grown up in an ethical environment is a lot less likely to be a criminal upon attaining a powerful corporate / political position than someone who was raised in a very corrupt environment.

If corruption / ethics are very bad at all levels then I don't think any system - socialist or more market oriented - works for the general population, save a dictatorship to some extent. Lots of dictators in Latin history. And when the basic system is broke, local goods will be cheap for people with hard currency regardless of the politics currently being preached.

[Moore]

Jj,

Please can you list a few examples of a state-run enterprise providing a cheaper, more efficient product than a private enterprise.

I don't fully agree with your theory that corruption is more problematic at a micro level in Argentina and vice-versa in USA. Corruption seems rampant at all levels here from the street cop to the president of the country. Outright plunder probably is a better term than corruption. One major difference is that criminals are often prosecuted in USA. Measures and new regs are often put in place after a major problem to prevent recurrence. A US commoner who has grown up in an ethical environment is a lot less likely to be a criminal upon attaining a powerful corporate/political position than someone who was raised in a very corrupt environment.

If corruption/ethics are very bad at all levels then I don't think any system - socialist or more market oriented - works for the general population, save a dictatorship to some extent. Lots of dictators in Latin history. And when the basic system is broke, local goods will be cheap for people with hard currency regardless of the politics currently being preached.

[Jjgoinslow]

Andres-

I think the irony of most of the Monger-Economist arguments on this board is that they argue that essentially Argentina should be more like the USA in terms of politics, economics and business practices. What I think they are missing is that if Argentina operated exactly like the USA, they would not want to come here. You cannot have the cheap steak, the cheap pussy, and cheap living when a country has an efficient, low-corruption, socioeconomic and political system. Think about it.

Huh? So efficiency and low-corruption result in higher prices? Isn't this essentially the opposite of the many arguments for privatizing supposedly inefficient goverment services to improve efficiency and lower prices. Of course those arguments are a load of crap, privatization almost always leads to boosts in prices. I think there needs some reevaluating of perspectives here. I don't think it is useful to attempt to compare the 'quantity' of corruption in Argentina to the US. It is more instructive to look at the substance of corruption, in Argentina corruption seems to be ingrained at a micro level, a way of doing business (ie always count your change) whereas in the US I think small actors are likely to be mostly legit, playing by the rules. However, in the US the government and Fortune 500 companies have corrupt practices that are on such a scale so as to dwarf a so-called 3rd world country. Think Enron, Halliburton, Worldcom, Global Crossing, etc. Or think about the worlds largest economy which is DEPENDENT on military spending. Or the Saviings and Loan bailout, or the raiding of the social security 'trust fund', too many examples to cite, but the raiding is generally done at a system level where the individual does not see the direct impact, certainly the ultra-rich do not directly see the direct impact. As some wise dude said something like: the US has socialized costs and debts but privatized benefits.

Jj

[Andres]

Thats a good point which I was going to bring up Andres. I do not use the US as a "universal reference standard", especially for a country like Argentina which I believe is more oriented toward a more socialistic system that is more common in W Europe. But how a country like Italy, apparently having many similar issues as Argentina (corruption, Latins, instability, etc) is able to maintain a relatively expensive social system yet still be a 1st-world G7 country is something I don't fully understand. Why can't Argentina do the same?

Seamless access to the European markets is an important issue. High quality of manufactured goods (among them, textiles) is another to mention.

Andres

[Andres]

Andres,

Argentina did not get out of the "pit left by the peso peg" without the IMF, but against the IMF - by defaulting on her international debts.

As far as I know, Argentina never stopped paying loans to international institutions (IMF, World Bank, IDB) Just the private debt was defaulted.

Andres