Best Areas to Rent-Buy-Live in Buenos Aires

[Starfe]

But I would like everyone to know I represent a new line of
"Brokeback Mountain" hats. PM if you have any interest in a particular size. We only carry one color!

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/images/2005/08/321180.jpg

[Exon123]

Thomaso,

Thats one of the major reasons, (other than economic's) I would shy away from Buying.

Some of us know you personally and your personal situation. You have a completely different deal than the rest of us mongers.

Your the only American I know in Buenos Aires that it makes sense to Buy, If something happend to you, (God for bid) it really won't matter to you or your estate. The apartment would transfer to where you would want it to go anyway.

You've bought a place to live. The rest of us would be buying an investment to Monger in.

I myself would probably spend six months a year down their and try and rent the other six months with hopes of trying to break even. I sure as Hell wouldn't want to "Croak" and have a $150,000 apartment in my estate.

So unless I can get "Ana Luna" or "Gysell" to marry me I'll keep my money right here in a "Revokable Trust" where I can watch it and have control over it.

Exon

[Thomaso276]

One other problem with buying property here is your estate. I am sure all of us would want to inherit a nice apartment in BA, but not all your relatives would appreciate having an asset 5000 miles away. Not exactly like inheriting a condo in Miami or Las Vegas.

PS. Because I live here, I am available to inherit any assets any monger has here in BA. Please PM me if you would like to put me into your will!

[Moore]

I would buy a property here if I were going to live in it permanently, but not solely as an investment. Hunt99's scenario about expropriation is not at all far-fetched based on what has happened in Argentina. However, my understanding is that property has long enjoyed a somewhat sacred/respected status here and that titles, for instance, are well reviewed and clean if you buy something. Regarding the rents, I believe that they will eventually go up to the 1% level and not the other way around (property devaluation). In that case, buying a residence here would make more sense from an income standpoint, but I still don't see the impetus behind real capital growth here.

[Norman Stormin]

[QUOTE=Hunt99]Amen. When you can rent a big spacious place (like the Mansion) or even a small apartment for something like.30% per month of the value of a place, it is a no-brainer to rent rather than buy.

If you apply Ricardo's Law of Rents, you would find that true real property values are correct only if expressed in Argentine pesos (I. E. They are inflated 3 times)

[Hunt99]

Yes. Enjoy and live in Argentina, just don't invest there.

Amen. When you can rent a big spacious place (like the Mansion) or even a small apartment for something like .30% per month of the value of a place, it is a no-brainer to rent rather than buy.

As an example, you can rent a nice studio or one bedroom apartment in Palermo or Barrio Norte for US$300 per month. The price to buy such a place would be US$100,000. Take your hundred grand, put it in a money market account, earn your US$333 in interest a month, and pay for an hour's fun once a month at 1707 Santa Fe with the extra 33 bucks. Or for the more adventurous, invest the hundred grand in a diversified stock portfolio and pay your rent with the dividends, and also get capital appreciation in the long term.

Argentina is the kind of country that is one law away from expropriating all real property owned by foreigners, giving your house/apartment to the cronies of the government, and telling you to go to hell. The Argentine government did just that to their entire middle class in 2001, they did it to their bond holders in 2005, and would certainly have no problem doing it to you in 2008, if you're stupid enough to invest your money there.

[Moore]

My point is that you should take these rankings with a grain of salt.

Yes. Enjoy and live in Argentina, just don't invest there. Those are economic indices, not quality of life indices. I'd live in Brazil long before Ireland but my money would be in the Euro zone (or even Chile). Argentines generally don't move to any Latin American country like Chile anyway regardless of its economy, right? Argentines are Europeans after all, even EEUU is a step down. Although I did meet various Argentine whoares in Santiago who are making 3-5 times what they made in Argentina. Seems like a no-brainer to take a 90 minute flight to a Mercosur associate country and do something like that.

[Andres]

AR is rated "mostly unfree, #107. AR distantly trails USA #11, IRELAND #3, CHILE #14, SPAIN #33, COSTA RICA #47, MEXICO #60, BRAZIL #81.

However, you will find many more Chileans living in Argentina than the other way around, and most people would prefer to have a standard Spaniard salary living in Madrid than a standard Chilean salary living in Santiago (not to mention that Madrid is way more sophisticated and interesting to live in than Santiago) despite Chile being the highest of the 3 in such ranking.

My point is that you should take these rankings with a grain of salt.

Andres

[Orlandoirish]

Fellow Mongers:

This thread has been eye-opening. From EXONS CFP / CPA expertise, I've decided to rent apartments, like chicas, since its less risky than buying. A collegue of mine at Google is Argentinian, he's opening a resort in Pat and I might go in (25%) in that -- at least it will give me place to ski, beside Teluride, Aspen, which cost a FAAAL!

Thanks again gentlemen for the chanter, banter, and useful information.

;-)

O-Irishman

[Andres]

Andres is an Argentine, he was born in Argentina, Love's his Country, is Very Highly Educated, Yet he can't fined a decient job in Argentina and is forced to work in another Country. That tells you something right there, If Argentina has to ship their 'Best" and their "Brightess" off shore to find work there's something basicaly flawed in their economy.

Thanks for your comments, Exon.

You mentioned something that I should detail more so that mongers get the precise picture: I was making a "good salary" for Argentine standards on my last job when living there (around ARS 3,000) which let me afford many things (chicas included) but may be short for supporting a family and / or pay education loans in the US.

The reason to leave Argentina, in my case, was because I can make much more than ARS 3,000 up north and get some positions that I wanted to work in, and work many less hours than in Argentina.

Andres

[Goblin]

And that is without considering furniture, operating expenses, and an obviously substantial vacancy allowance.

Argentina needs a stable monetary system to recover economically, a strong tourism sector will never be enough to impact Real Estate values significantly.

This forum does not appear to be the place for reliable financial advise.

Goblin.

My friend Andres pretty much sum's it up with the above quote replying to "Saint" below.

Now lets look at the facts.

Andres is an Argentine, he was born in Argentina, Love's his Country, is Very Highly Educated, Yet he can't fined a decient job in Argentina and is forced to work in another Country. That tells you something right there, If Argentina has to ship their 'Best" and their "Brightess" off shore to find work there's something basicaly flawed in their economy.

If any of us is qualified to speak on this subject it would be Andres. He knows the culture, the people and how they think. (In case some of you newbies haven't realized this yet, an Argentine doesn't think like a typical American.

As I wrote earlier, the wealthy Argentine that lives in New York I met while moving out of Jacksons apartment told me, "Yes all my friends bought properties right after the "Crash" in 2001 & 2002 and are now trying to sell them as fast as they can.

Heres a very good example of what I'm talking about.

Last July I paid "Ana" do some homework for me. I had Ana look up some possible long term rentals in which I was willing to take a two year lease baised on what terms I could negociate.

She found me a "Gorgeous" place on "Quintanna", very nicely furnished, about 200 feet from the Alaver Palace Hotel, one of the best parts of Recoleta. The place was a huge furnished one bedroom, very large bathroon & Kitchen, I'd say close to 100 meters in size. With a one year leasing price of $1,000 USD dollars per month. I was excited about the place and told the Landlord & Leasing Agent I'd get back to them. Time passed and I did nothing and soon Ana's phone rang.

The leasing Agent wanted to know what was wrong and was I still interested. More time passed and she called Ana again dropping the rent to $850 dollars per month on a one year contract. I did nothing and returned home to Sex Prison.

Then again I returned to Argentina in September, the place was still for rent and Ana and I looked at it again. This time the price was $750 dollars per month with a years lease. I went home again and returned once more in November. The beautiful apartment was still "Vacant" no takers.

Now heres the "Math", if the going rate for prime property in Recoleta and else were is $150 per meter and up, which has been stated on this board. The apartment I was looking at had a value of about $150,000 USD dollars, all cash, all up front, you own it for $150,000 dollars with what ever hidden problems that were not disclosed.

But I could rent the place for $750 per month, (The "Nose Picker" price for American's, Furnished no less) $750 per month times 12 is $9,000 USD dollars per year. $9,000 dollars per year dividend by the $150,000 "Alleged" value of the place is 6%. Why "Fuck You Mongers", Exon will take his $150,000 and buy a AAA rated Corporate Bond, (I can Buy & Sell with a Phone call) which will pay a higher return and finance his Mongering with "Debt Service" from the Bond. Course we all know theres better Investments than that if You've got a Hundred & fifty Grand in Cash.

Its a pure and simple business decission, no brain surgery here. Why gamble in a foregin country thats both Policticaly & Econmomicly unstable on the hope's of the "Greater Fool" syndrome, "Trees Don't Grow To The Sky" and neither will Argentine Real Estate.

Exon

[Exon123]

Your comment applies to high-end property, but not necessarily to all.

I sold my apartment last year and the most I could get was 65% of the 2001 value, since local people cannot afford the real estate prices they used to pay before.

Andres

My friend Andres pretty much sum's it up with the above quote replying to "Saint" below.

Now lets look at the facts.

Andres is an Argentine, he was born in Argentina, Love's his Country, is Very Highly Educated, Yet he can't fined a decient job in Argentina and is forced to work in another Country. That tells you something right there, If Argentina has to ship their 'Best" and their "Brightess" off shore to find work there's something basicaly flawed in their economy.

If any of us is qualified to speak on this subject it would be Andres. He knows the culture, the people and how they think. (In case some of you newbies haven't realized this yet, an Argentine doesn't think like a typical American.

As I wrote earlier, the wealthy Argentine that lives in New York I met while moving out of Jacksons apartment told me, "Yes all my friends bought properties right after the "Crash" in 2001 & 2002 and are now trying to sell them as fast as they can.

Heres a very good example of what I'm talking about.

Last July I paid "Ana" do some homework for me. I had Ana look up some possible long term rentals in which I was willing to take a two year lease baised on what terms I could negociate.

She found me a "Gorgeous" place on "Quintanna", very nicely furnished, about 200 feet from the Alaver Palace Hotel, one of the best parts of Recoleta. The place was a huge furnished one bedroom, very large bathroon & Kitchen, I'd say close to 100 meters in size. With a one year leasing price of $1,000 USD dollars per month. I was excited about the place and told the Landlord & Leasing Agent I'd get back to them. Time passed and I did nothing and soon Ana's phone rang.

The leasing Agent wanted to know what was wrong and was I still interested. More time passed and she called Ana again dropping the rent to $850 dollars per month on a one year contract. I did nothing and returned home to Sex Prison.

Then again I returned to Argentina in September, the place was still for rent and Ana and I looked at it again. This time the price was $750 dollars per month with a years lease. I went home again and returned once more in November. The beautiful apartment was still "Vacant" no takers.

Now heres the "Math", if the going rate for prime property in Recoleta and else were is $150 per meter and up, which has been stated on this board. The apartment I was looking at had a value of about $150,000 USD dollars, all cash, all up front, you own it for $150,000 dollars with what ever hidden problems that were not disclosed.

But I could rent the place for $750 per month, (The "Nose Picker" price for American's, Furnished no less) $750 per month times 12 is $9,000 USD dollars per year. $9,000 dollars per year dividend by the $150,000 "Alleged" value of the place is 6%. Why "Fuck You Mongers", Exon will take his $150,000 and buy a AAA rated Corporate Bond, (I can Buy & Sell with a Phone call) which will pay a higher return and finance his Mongering with "Debt Service" from the Bond. Course we all know theres better Investments than that if You've got a Hundred & fifty Grand in Cash.

Its a pure and simple business decission, no brain surgery here. Why gamble in a foregin country thats both Policticaly & Econmomicly unstable on the hope's of the "Greater Fool" syndrome.

"Trees Don't Grow To The Sky" and neither will Argentine Real Estate.

Exon

[Goblin]

One of my biggest investment concerns would be the lack of financing options and limited positive leverage which would have the effect of limiting your cash on cash return.

At present rates in the USA you can easily leaverage $250,000.00 into a $1M+ commercial real estate investment with a c / c yield of over 20% on an NOI of only 11%.

To match that in BA you would have to buy cheap and rent high at minimal operating costs.

The only possibility for a substantive escalation in Real Estate values would be through the introduction of proper financing options and I can't see that happening without support from the international banking community and the IMF.

Goblin.

I've always found real estate to be tricky business to predict even in the US where the markets are transparent and competitive. The use of the MLS to control commissions is the only serious efficient market obstacle that I see and that's getting some Justice Department attention (I assume triggered by insufficient campaign contributions)

Making serious money by investing in real estate seems to be fairly simple.

1. Live somewhere prices happen to go crazy and have the option to move to a less expensive area (or be happy with just leaving a big estate)

2. Buy low, sell high, and don't make stupid mistakes.

Reminds me of Las Vegas where almost everyone that makes money thinks it was because they are smart while almost everyone that loses money thinks it was because they are unlucky. In my experience, thinking you are smart and thinking you are unlucky are usually two sides of the same coin.

Saint took a big risk and is making lots of money. Good for him. He says he's a really smart guy so I'm sure he realizes that luck is a big part of his success and is prepared if his luck happens to change (like another economic crisis that causes investors and tourists to shun BA for an extended stretch) Survival, like luck, favors the well prepared.

I think there are lots of red flags related to investing in property in BA but you can make a lot of money on a quick flip in a hot market (especially using OPM to manage the risk) Saint is taking advantage of a market inefficiency by becoming a trustworthy advisor to foreigners that think BA is a good place to invest and says he is doing quite well at it. If you don't think he is trustworthy, don't want to invest in BA real estate, or are not interested in renting a premium apartment at a premium price, don't do business with him. But bitching about it here is, like bitching about guys paying $US600 for a chica at Black, is a waste of time and bandwidth.

I've considered renting from apartmentsba on trips as the places look nice but generally end up either renting something 50% less expensive (think Marriott vs Four Seasons) or renting from Roxana or Jackson where I can keep the money "in the family".

Think of Saint as the Donald Trump of Buenos Aires. He may have a giant ego and be a horse's ass but at least he's entertaining. That's more than can be said for most of us.

[Easy Go]

I've always found real estate to be tricky business to predict even in the US where the markets are transparent and competitive. The use of the MLS to control commissions is the only serious efficient market obstacle that I see and that's getting some Justice Department attention (I assume triggered by insufficient campaign contributions)

Making serious money by investing in real estate seems to be fairly simple.

1. Live somewhere prices happen to go crazy and have the option to move to a less expensive area (or be happy with just leaving a big estate)

2. Buy low, sell high, and don't make stupid mistakes.

Reminds me of Las Vegas where almost everyone that makes money thinks it was because they are smart while almost everyone that loses money thinks it was because they are unlucky. In my experience, thinking you are smart and thinking you are unlucky are usually two sides of the same coin.

Saint took a big risk and is making lots of money. Good for him. He says he's a really smart guy so I'm sure he realizes that luck is a big part of his success and is prepared if his luck happens to change (like another economic crisis that causes investors and tourists to shun BA for an extended stretch) Survival, like luck, favors the well prepared.

I think there are lots of red flags related to investing in property in BA but you can make a lot of money on a quick flip in a hot market (especially using OPM to manage the risk) Saint is taking advantage of a market inefficiency by becoming a trustworthy advisor to foreigners that think BA is a good place to invest and says he is doing quite well at it. If you don't think he is trustworthy, don't want to invest in BA real estate, or are not interested in renting a premium apartment at a premium price, don't do business with him. But bitching about it here is, like bitching about guys paying $US600 for a chica at Black, is a waste of time and bandwidth.

I've considered renting from apartmentsba on trips as the places look nice but generally end up either renting something 50% less expensive (think Marriott vs Four Seasons) or renting from Roxana or Jackson where I can keep the money "in the family".

Think of Saint as the Donald Trump of Buenos Aires. He may have a giant ego and be a horse's ass but at least he's entertaining. That's more than can be said for most of us.

[Andres]

Andres,

I'm not sure where your property is located or how much you originally paid. I know in some instances the prices are still lower but look at just about every transaction that is going on and relative property prices around the city in areas like Recoleta, Palermo, Barrio Norte (only areas where I buy) Prices have gone up.

I still see prices going up. I think you will agree that for the most part in BA, property is priced by the sq. Meter and the price per sq. Meter has steadily gone up since the crash.

My property was in a quarter other than the ones you mentioned.

I agree that prices will go up in most neighborhoods, specially in upscale neighborhoods such as Recoleta, which reached saturation in terms of available lots for new construction. That's certainly not the case for properties south of Rivadavia Ave.

Andres