Thread: Apartment buying experiences

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  1. #28

    back home

    I am back home in Germany, not very much happened since my last post.

    Everything is now in the hands of my lawyer, probably next week a "boleto" will be signed and a substantial down payment made.

    I keep you posted.

    El Alemán

  2. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by El Aleman
    The afternoon went with negotiations between my guys (apartmentsba) and the seller's guys about a counter offer, and some details about settling, but half an hour ago I got the call that we are closing. Good news.

    MCSE, I am no rookie to this country, nor to real estate in general, and your comment was exactly what I asked in my opening post to refrain from. I explicitely did not want the discussion "to buy or not to buy" here. We had that at other places.

    I did some research about the cost of things.

    Anything that has wires at or in it costs significantly more, due to import taxes. Other things, like bathroom and kitchen stuff, floor or wall tiles, etc. Is available in beautiful designs at a fraction of the costs back home. Always keep in mind, I compare to Europe, not the U. S. I have no idea what a bathtub costs in Des Moines, Iowa (and are not too interested in it, either) I do know, however that anything with "Sony" or "Panasonic" written on it costs about the same in California and Germany.

    More to come.

    El Alemán
    Congrats El Aleman!

    I (and probably others) were routing for you, as if it were a football game. It sounds like you are happy with your place.

    Also, I would look around before I purchased anything at the BA Design Center. Some of there stuff is outrageously expensive, like pots and pans, kitchenware, etc. Not sure about their furniture.

    I hope to return to BA in September and will probably buy a place then as well. I am sure I don't have your wealth or income level so it does not make since for me to buy just as a toy or more passive investment, like you are able to do. I sure wished I could though. If I buy, I will need to live in it to justify the purchase, and rent out my house in Dallas. I can get a whole lot more rent in Dallas for the amount of dollars invested, at least as a non-tourist rental. I think tourist rentals are great, but I don't think I can depend on steady rents. Last year Saint's apartments were booked almost solid. Now it seems they are mostly unbooked, at least the ones that I have looked at on his website. So I don't know what is going on with that. But also, his rents are very high, so that could be the main issue there. I think with a low tourist rent, and a decent place, I could depend on a steady booking, although I would then need appreciation to counter the lower rent.

    The other main issue is how do you control something 5000 miles away? One thing I have learned is that property managers can soak up a lot of profit and do not have the same incentive as you do. But on the other hand, apartments are much less maintenance intensive than houses in the USA. And as I mentioned on my previous post, property taxes are way lower. That is the main key, as my property taxes in the USA are outrageously high.

    Congrats again. You can relax now! The stressful part is over.

  3. #26

    bingo!

    The afternoon went with negotiations between my guys (apartmentsba) and the seller's guys about a counter offer, and some details about settling, but half an hour ago I got the call that we are closing. Good news.

    MCSE, I am no rookie to this country, nor to real estate in general, and your comment was exactly what I asked in my opening post to refrain from. I explicitely did not want the discussion "to buy or not to buy" here. We had that at other places.

    I did some research about the cost of things.

    Anything that has wires at or in it costs significantly more, due to import taxes. Other things, like bathroom and kitchen stuff, floor or wall tiles, etc. Is available in beautiful designs at a fraction of the costs back home. Always keep in mind, I compare to Europe, not the U. S. I have no idea what a bathtub costs in Des Moines, Iowa (and are not too interested in it, either) I do know, however that anything with "Sony" or "Panasonic" written on it costs about the same in California and Germany.

    More to come.

    El Alemán

  4. #25
    I truly enjoy retirement here but I must say for such an educated country, their financial / banking system is a fucking disaster. Why? Because when it comes to money there are no safeguards and everyone is a potential crook. I am amazed at the number of Amercian based banks and financial institutions here who refuse to institute any safeguards. Why doesn't Citibank use the same standards here as in the States? I understand banking laws are different here, but can't an organization go above minimum standards?

    Otherwise all is well!

  5. #24
    Senior Member


    Posts: 547
    Cash transactions are made generally in the bank. Why cash is the only way to pay for a property? There are many reasons: one is because people's money was litteraly stolen by the government and international banks, and not only when the 2002 crash happen but also when banco mayo desapeared. Another reason is because almost nobody save money to buy a property, many just exchange one property for another, when they need money they sale a larger property then buy a smaller and the rest they spend on their needs, another investment or whatever, if they made some bucks, they sale what they had and buy another. Check is not accepted since is too risky. In Argentina nobody trust nobody. When importing dollars to AR the central bank makes a conversion to pesos, then back to dollars, so you lose up to 5% spread. There are exeptions as when you buy stuff for more than US$1 million the things gets more complicated since many will like the money to be transfered from an offshore (your) bank to another (their) bank. I was in a half million transaction and the guys was counting US$100 dollars bills, so I've asked why don't you bring a teller machine, (not an ATM but those small machines for count bills, even Tony Montana in scarface movie had one) they said it's not reliable and they called a teller guy. It was amazing, then they had to call another teller-guy.

    An issue not menctioned yet on this thread is about the 'notary public'. I've seen on the TV and also heared about a foreigner guy who thougt he was making an excellent deal buying a great apartment for 50% of it's value, but it was a scam operation and they hired a fake notary public. The guy was so happy for a year until an eviction note arrived, so the guy lost all the investment and of course the apartment. So when you sale, important thing it's to count and verify the money is not fake, perhaps the transaction should be made in your bank, so you make a deposit right there and if the teller-ATM-guy accept the bills you are ready to sign but when you buy you must verify the notary public is not fake, nor corrupt. Perhaps the law it's the buyer chooses the notary public at it soley responsability, many people doesn't know about this.

    I was able to negotiate the prices for buying to drop up to 20% when negotiating for buy, and of course that makes things more complicated sometimes. I have my own techniques because I know the market, conditions, and I'm the best negotiatior in town. But if I had no knowledge about some things I would find extremely risky to buy in Argentina. I mean, do you guys have already a plan-B? What happens if real estate prices drops? It happen before, not one but several times in the argentinean history, just make a little research.

    Perhaps why do you think a sq meter in BA cost 10 to 20 times less than in NY, Europe capitals?

    Credit: There is no credit in Argentina? Not true. In fact I'm starting-up a real estate business and we are financing for buying real estate. Also many banks finance in pesos.

    So my final advice for you guys is not to buy in Argentina but if you are desperate PM me and ask a real expert.

  6. #23
    Retired Member


    Posts: 2599
    El Aleman,

    I know the area that you made the offer on, Santa Fé and Pueyrredon.

    I've stayed in Roxana's apartment several time's which I'd guess is 10 or 12 blocks against the traffic at Guido & Pueyrredon. Next door to Roxana's is a new building their asking anywhere from 15 to 18 hundred hollars per meter.

    I'm currious as to what their asking in that part of town.

    Exon

  7. #22

    Cash

    The "drug money" story is likely to be true. I heard that not only from Saint, but also from my Lawyer, who handled lots of real estate transactions. He told me that a bag full of dollars on the desk of his conference room has happened often enough.

    I puschased one property a few years ago, farmland, and that was paid by wire transfer. The seller in this case however was a company who was familiar with the banking system and needed the money to pay taxes.

    I won't see how it is handled in this case, as I won't be in town. It will be handled by the Lawyer, in whatever way he agrees with the seller.

    Still waiting for a response to my offer.

    El Alemán

  8. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Escapee5150
    One thing that jumps out at your is how do you know all the $100 bills are real and not counterfeit?
    My general feeling is, if you can't trust banks to provide real money in such things, then there are bigger problems than just bogus $100 bills.

    Other people I know have used a trustee or some such mechanism. Reynolds Propiedades implied that I would wire the funds to something like a title company. They are a long established company and someone that seems very trustworthy. The drug deal method of having $100,000 or $300,000 pesos with armed guards and machine guns seems. Well insane.
    I'm not an expert on Argentine real estate transactions -- nor do I play one on TV -- but I can't see how (1) a title company is any more trustworthy than a bank, and (2) how, at the end of the day, you are going to get around the cash exchange. The few other American expats I know who have bought real estate since the peso collapse have all had the same basic experience: cash dollars are counted and exchanged, and the seller basically walks out with it physically in tow.

    But hey, who knows? This is part of what makes Argentina a fun place to move to. If you have a different experience, please share it.

    SL

  9. #20

    Mortgages

    One thing I read on Saint's ApartmentsBA.com website is that mortgages are rare and you have to put down 50% , and come from a certain family, and have a great job, etc. I know a girl that just bought a place and she got a mortgage on a $60,000 place. I know she did not have $30,000 sitting around in cash to put down for the 50%. And her job or family are not that special. But of course, Saint is selling security (with fear), so that's cool. I would do the exact same thing. It just may not be accurate though. And don't get me wrong. Saint is awesome. He will end up owning half of this town. Just add a few grains of salt to what anyone tells you. One thing here, just like in the USA. Everything the professionals tell you is usually biased. Even the appraisals (in the USA) are bullsh*t. Because many have been trumped up by second liens and over inflated appraisals. The selling price in the MLS systems are all trumped up. Properties worth $80,000 are appraised at $100,000 so you can get $80,000 from the bank. "Rob the bank because that is where the money is". The bank thinks they are lending 80%. But they are really lending 100%. They were actually purchased for $40,000 with $6,000 in remodeling costs. The remodeler/seller gets $80,000 minus a fake down $8,000 down payment provided by the remodeler/seller, minus $8,000 in closing costs. The remodeler/seller walks away with about $64,000 minus about $52,000 (the $46,000 plus $6,000 in closing costs to purchase it). He nets only $12,000. And then the next $100,000 appraisal is based on the last $100,000 appraisal. Everything is a lie. Trust me. I did some house flips and talk about the biggest group of psychopaths I have ever seen. You could go into the bowels of Soviet Union and find less corruption than the Department of Housing and Urban Development or all of the other professionals in the system. But hey, every country is a corrupt communist country now. We all know which groups vote for it. Hell, both parties in the USA vote for it. No one wants rule of law. They all want free money and power. NOW! To hell with the system that keeps us from killing each other. When you have too much socialism, like in Argentina, it all falls apart into corruption and then only law that is followed is the law of gravity. We are in it's aftermath. It is ironic that I feel I have more freedom here than in the USA. I love freedom and I used to believe in rule of law. But I feel like I was the only one. I felt like a very naive chump. So dance everybody. They can't tax us for dancing!

  10. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by StrayLight
    You probably already know this, but be prepared for an all-cash transaction when you finally settle.

    When I bought last year, I was mildly stunned. I had wired funds down to Banco Piano, and just before the start time, they walked in with stacks of USD $100 bills piled on a platter. I had to count it and sign for it. Then the escribano's assistant counted it. Then the seller counted it. It was like a caricature of a high-end South American drug deal. The seller and his wife were very well-off, distinguished looking people. But when the money got to them, all decorum went out the window and they focused on it with a feral intensity that almost scared me. They also had a private armed guard (bullet-proof vest, submachine gun) standing over the entire thing in the room. And when it was over, they took the cash out to an armored car they had hired to transport the money to their bank.

    Very bizarre.

    You might also want to check into Argentine inheritance laws. There are a few quirks that you might not be aware of. It will be worth your time and money to see a lawyer and make out a proper will as soon as possible after you buy it.

    SL
    Wow. Great story. And great advice about the will. Thanks Stray Light. One thing that jumps out at your is how do you know all the $100 bills are real and not counterfeit? Did you have a black light reader thing like they do at Solid Gold when they were handed to you? I guess if they came from a bank, they were probably ok. But here, who knows. Other people I know have used a trustee or some such mechanism. Reynolds Propiedades implied that I would wire the funds to something like a title company. They are a long established company and someone that seems very trustworthy. The drug deal method of having $100,000 or $300,000 pesos with armed guards and machine guns seems...well insane. And that is coming from me. Not Joe MilkToast CPA guy. Although, I do feel at home with drug deals. Just not ones that big. More in the $25 range.

  11. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by El Aleman

    It is big, 106 m², with lots of sunlight. 6th floor of 10, frente, and on the direct opposite side of the street are 2 buildings only 3 and 4 floors high.

    The location is not as plush as for example Recoleta, it is a mixed residential / business area, and a bit more middle class. I did not yet scout it completely +- 3 blocks for restaurants, shops, etc. But the first impression is, everything is there, but not in the fancy variety. For your style of fast eating, Escapee, there is an ideal place just around the corner, a buffet style restaurant with amazingly good food.

    El Alemán
    Sounds nice enough, but.

    BE CAREFUL. But the obvious thing that jumps out at me is the very thing you are happy about, or seem to be. My mama taught me this. When you are next to an open field (as we have, or at least used to have in Texas before the Mexicans came, and before all the rich fat white people had 3 more kids each) Sorry I digress. The power of people listening to me has gone to my head. I have assumed control. You will all do as I say. BWHAHAHAH! Sorry. God where does that come from? As I was saying, that is, when you have an open field, you never know what they are going to build next to you. Like maybe a Walmart, or a Firestone, etc. Well, here, when you have an old shitty building next to you, or a short little building next to you, it is a target to be torn down faster than a nicer newer taller building. They then will build a giant new building to block out all of your sun. Yes, I know it is obvious. But maybe not. Measure 16,000 times, cut once. We are all living vicariously through your hunt and purchase.

    One thing I was struck with by your decision process is that you basically want a nice place more than a nice location. Not that your location is not nice. I don't really know what a nice location is here. It is not like you are going to find clean air, or no traffic, or much greenery. All that is left is proximity to either tourist stuff, or the subway routes, or maybe down town as an epicenter. One part of Palermo has a 3 story limit. That might be nice, but of course that zoning law can change. And it is not like Santa Barbara where when I was there, the buildings were all one story. There is a big difference between even one and two story. Once you have two story buildings the sun and the vibe pretty much goes away. With three stories you got nothing. And here in Recoleta, it is Gotham City. Maybe it does not matter, as it seems I rarely see the light of day here anyway.

  12. #17
    You probably already know this, but be prepared for an all-cash transaction when you finally settle.

    When I bought last year, I was mildly stunned. I had wired funds down to Banco Piano, and just before the start time, they walked in with stacks of USD $100 bills piled on a platter. I had to count it and sign for it. Then the escribano's assistant counted it. Then the seller counted it. It was like a caricature of a high-end South American drug deal. The seller and his wife were very well-off, distinguished looking people. But when the money got to them, all decorum went out the window and they focused on it with a feral intensity that almost scared me. They also had a private armed guard (bullet-proof vest, submachine gun) standing over the entire thing in the room. And when it was over, they took the cash out to an armored car they had hired to transport the money to their bank.

    Very bizarre.

    You might also want to check into Argentine inheritance laws. There are a few quirks that you might not be aware of. It will be worth your time and money to see a lawyer and make out a proper will as soon as possible after you buy it.

    SL

  13. #16

    and wait, and some details

    Today went rather uneventful. An Architect doing work for ApartmentsBA visited the place, took a ton of measurements and looked into the more obscure corners to check for any hidden surprises. He found nothing serious. The worst was his suggestion to donate the air conditioners to a museum.

    No word yet from the owner about my offer. Hopefully tomorrow.

    Saw my lawyer this afternoon to get him do his part of the job - basically handling the whole purchase while I am away. Tomorrow I will have to sign a notarized power for him.

    Some details:

    It is big, 106 m², with lots of sunlight. 6th floor of 10, frente, and on the direct opposite side of the street are 2 buildings only 3 and 4 floors high.

    The location is not as plush as for example Recoleta, it is a mixed residential / business area, and a bit more middle class. I did not yet scout it completely +- 3 blocks for restaurants, shops, etc. But the first impression is, everything is there, but not in the fancy variety. For your style of fast eating, Escapee, there is an ideal place just around the corner, a buffet style restaurant with amazingly good food.

    I will have to search the quiter neighbourhood streets, as that is often the place of good restaurants, not the big avenidas.

    This afternoon, I spent some time in the "Buenos Aires Design" mall in Recoleta to just get an idea about furniture prices. Very down to earth, compared to Europe, and this place is very upscale. And, Argentineans seem to be bathroom fetishists, beautiful things and dead cheap.

    More to come,

    El Alemán

  14. #15

    Details, details.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Aleman
    I just came back from A inmobiliario where I made A offer and paid the usual U. S.1,000 deposit.
    First of all congrats!

    I think this thread is very interested in your proposed purchase. If you don't mind sharing a few more details.

    Did you go for frente or contra frente?

    About how many meters?

    Was it nice and open and like you like?

    Does it have a lot of hours of sun, or is that an issue for you?

    I like your idea of the "this is it feeling" because how you feel in your Apartment is 95% of it.

    I think that will be a good location, but that all depends on what your needs are.

    BsAs is not like Dallas, TX where it makes a huge difference where your house is, assuming you like not be murdered or robbed repeatedly. The same exact house can be three times as expensive just one street away.

    Being from Dallas, to me it feels like in BsAs, the area is not that critical at all, at least for safety reasons. To me, it feels way more dangerous in South Dallas than any part of BsAs. So here it is more about $/ meter, quality of life, and proximity to conveniences, much more than safety.

    I like quick access to restaurants, grocery stores, laundry service, etc. Also, I like the food courts like in the mall or Recoleta Village for cheaper, faster food, without having to go through a big long production every time. And the wide variety of choices.

    The other thing about location is the people that are around you. Basically, you pay Alot more to be around wealthy, educated people. I am not sure it is worth it to pay 2X for everything to be around the more upscale people. But if you are buying, it is probably the right thing to do. But usually the rich people are old and no fun.

  15. #14

    Hit

    I just came back from an inmobiliario where I made an offer and paid the usual U$S 1,000 deposit.

    But let's start at the beginning.

    This morning, I had apointments to see 2 more. The first, near the Alto Palermo shopping center was not bad, contrafrente (back side of building) but the next plot only occupied by some 2 or 3 floor construction, so a lot of light. Looked reasonable, but still did not cry "BUY ME, BUY ME".

    The second one - I was in it and got this immediate "that's it" feeling. Large, lots of sunlight, on a side street near the intersection of Santa Fé and Pueyrredon, good building with security, an elavator that does not make any strange noises, needs a moderate amount of reconstruction - and the price is right.

    I made an appointment at the realto's, and this afternoon signed an offer. Let's see what happens.

    Before that, I saw another one, on Pueyrredon, that is nearly as nice. I will keep that in mind as second choice. Anyway, I will probably see some more tomorrow, just in case.

    I think, up to now that went unusually quick. I basically expected to spend all week, so let's hope nothing comes in between.

    I keep you guys posted,

    El Alemán

    P.S. Hunt, you are absolutely right. That is exactly what I would do at home, if somebody is somewhere in low orbit with his expectations, try get him down to earth. I don't, however, now if that works with the southamerican macho mentality. Certainly worth a try.

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