Argentine Real Estate

[El Alamo]

Rent, don't buy in AR. We have recommended this for years! My landlord, a minor speculator, owns 4 very nice apartments. Only mine is rented. The same is true all winter. Anyway, I'm leaving ASAP, for 3 months or permanently!

What Exon and Sidney say is 100% correct. In Argentina, rent, don't buy.

As one who owns several buildings in Buenos Aires I can tell you that, if I knew then what I know now, I would never have bought those properties.

The issue is not that you are going to lose money. If you buy smart you may make money.

The issue is that you do not want to be involved with any part of Argentina I. E. Its government or its institutions. Buying and selling real estate in Argentina guarantees that you will have to deal with the most corrupt, dishonest government in the known world.

Furthermore, in my opinion, there is no hope for Argentina. The future of Argentina as a country is slow perpetual decline forever.

Enjoy the pussy and don't let the tarbaby get you I. E. The tarbaby is the government of Argentina.

Always remember, when in Argentina, you are always a lot better off if you have the option of taking the next plane out of Dodge.

[Exon123]

This conversation has been held many times on this forum.

Your far better off with a long term lease, two years or so.

If you must buy wait until the next crisis which is not far off.

Then your $100,000 USD apartment might be selling for $50,000

Exon

[Jaggar]

These are excellent cases presented thus far and I applaude each contributor. As it stands today, we are enjoying what is basically a 4:1 $AR /$USD swap rate. Should this change, I am sure that many of us here might look elsewhere.

I am currently in a short term place in Palermo Hollywood that sells today for $100K USD. I am renting it for $1000USD... for a single month. Granted this is still low season through September but it is also only a single month rental. If I were to pull money from US, at an easily justifiable and conservative 6% cost, this apartment would run me roughly $500US/mo or roughly half what I am now paying.

Yes, one could continue to rent and throw good money down the argentenian drains. Or purchase. Now which is best?

Please feel free to weigh in on what is an issue yet to be resolved in my mind.

Suerte.

Jaggar

[Joe Hernandez]

I live in the midwest. My mortgage is almost paid off. My duplex renter pays 90% of my rent. My car is paid, gas minimal, so basically I can live for less than the above number and still have unlimited opportunity to make a buck. Agreed lifestyle, food, and the chicas being removed from the equation make it not really apples to apples. Point being when I started traveling there in 2003 it was 70% less than it was here. Now things are very close to equal. Seems out of fit to me. I heard electricity and utilities cable all spiked. How can the Argies keep up with this? It seems they are getting battered.

I spended 2 weeks in PA, MI, NY, OH travelling in June and I consider the cost of the items I buy about the same as in BA. Only public transport is still dirt cheap in BA

[Master J]

I don't know about your budget but if you can spend atleast 2000 dollar a month I would just rent short term (1-3-6 months) and move to different places.

In BA it should be something like:

800 dollar appartment.

800 dollar a month to spend (100 peso a day)

500 dollar a month for chicas?

If you have around 2000-2500 dollar available you could have a pretty decent life. I would think it's about the same in Lima, Santa Cruz (nice place, but I don't know if it's nice for Chicas) Bogota, Montevideo or the north of Chile (Really nice from Nov. Untill April)

I live in the midwest. My mortgage is almost paid off. My duplex renter pays 90% of my rent. My car is paid, gas minimal, so basically I can live for less than the above number and still have unlimited opportunity to make a buck. Agreed lifestyle, food, and the chicas being removed from the equation make it not really apples to apples. Point being when I started traveling there in 2003 it was 70% less than it was here. Now things are very close to equal. Seems out of fit to me. I heard electricity and utilities cable all spiked. How can the Argies keep up with this? It seems they are getting battered.

[Joe Hernandez]

The only renters that don't pay utilities are typically the temporary apartment rentals. And they charge much more for temporary rentals than normal contracts, so it will be possible for them to offset their costs by raising rates a bit and eating a bit of the cost both. The net earnings will shrink somewhat, but most of these people are not necessarily using their apartments as their sole source of income.

Everyone who rents on long term contracts (which is the vast percentage of renters) pays their own utilities.

If the expenses and stuff are getting more expensive the rents also have to come down. Let's say you are Argentine and you earn 6000 peso a month with your wife. You want to spend around 30-35% of your income on housing and your expenses go from 250 peso to 500 peso a month your rent has to go down with approx. The same amount. You can only afford to pay amount if your income increases, which might well not happen in 2009 and 2010

The main reason why it is not a huge concern for most Argentines is because they have properities because:

1) Money laundering.

2) Security. No cash at home, but in bricks.

3) Investment. There will never a corralito on houseprices.

4) No confidence in banks.

5) Security against inflation

[Spassmusssein]

I love it, not having other sharks in my little sea, Buenos Aires.

You CAN buy here, but you should be professional and smart.

The plebs should stay, renting.

Suerte

[El Queso]

The only renters that don't pay utilities are typically the temporary apartment rentals. And they charge much more for temporary rentals than normal contracts, so it will be possible for them to offset their costs by raising rates a bit and eating a bit of the cost both. The net earnings will shrink somewhat, but most of these people are not necessarily using their apartments as their sole source of income.

Everyone who rents on long term contracts (which is the vast percentage of renters) pays their own utilities.

[Joe Hernandez]

A thing that you have to consider is that cost in BA to own a property keep on raising. The porteros get another 30% and next year I think around 20%. People are expecting that expenses will increase around 50% and another big raise in 2010. Gas, water, electricity also keep on raising.

I would think that owning a big place (3 bedroom, at least 80 meter) is as expensive as renting a studio in Recoleta for about 8 months a year.

A PH in lets say Belgrano or Nunez might be an option because you have no or little expensas but you are not imuun for price raises in the utilities and taxes. You would also need to pay for repairs some day and that is hard to calculate.

I personally would not live in a PH or home in BA due to security reasons but that can be different for somebody else.

I also think that rents (also for long-term expats) have to go down, expenses go up and foreigners (both short and long term) are leaving. There is no way, even in Argentina, that those prices can be maintained

[Joe Hernandez]

But isn't "crisis" a good thing on my end? As I stated I would be buying a home not an investment. Some might say a home is an investment but I look at it more as shelter.

I just can't get over the amount of money I've spent on rent in NYC. I could have owned buy now. That is where my "nuts".*more "BRAINS" than money attitude comes in. I haven't been able to consider moving until very recently.

The problem I am running into with renting in foreign countries is visas and all that crap. I know you can dodge the officals for awhile but eventually it will catch up with you. I want to be legit in SA. I don't want to be scurrying around to find someone to rent me an apt under the radar. The reason my trips have been so sucessful are that I plan and organize well. Also my papers are in tact. I want to move freely without any worries of having to bribe officials to get in and out of countries etc.

I am not a huge fan of Argentina although I like it there. I am just thinking it might be a good place to use as a base camp in SA. Lima is great but winter sucks. Medellin has great pfp but I would slit my wrists out of boredom. Brazil is too expensive. I've gone down the line with all the SA countires. Where there is pussy there isn't decent food or the other way around. There are many ways to spoil the fun.

I would love to spend time in all those places but not own or be tied down with a visa. Why? It gets old really fast. But I would have "shelter" in BA and some of the ammenities I am used to. Even living in BA you guys lack stuff. Heinz Ketchup anybody?

Would owning in Colombia or Peru be any safer? I am not in the real estate business but I wouldn't think so. Brazil would be great but I don't have a brazil budget.

Also I must say that budget monegring in BA price wise is on par with most SA budget locations minus the $6 desperation fucks of Peru, Bolivia and Ecuador. Medellin would be a step up but there has been times the peso was NOT in my favor and was only a few dollars less than a BA budget fuck.

I don't have alot of experience with these types of situations BUT I am learning.

Maybe you don't understand my situation.

I'd love to hear more opinions.

Thanks.

Artisttyp

I don't know about your budget but if you can spend atleast 2000 dollar a month I would just rent short term (1-3-6 months) and move to different places.

In BA it should be something like:

800 dollar appartment.

800 dollar a month to spend (100 peso a day)

500 dollar a month for chicas?

If you have around 2000-2500 dollar available you could have a pretty decent life. I would think it's about the same in Lima, Santa Cruz (nice place, but I don't know if it's nice for Chicas) Bogota, Montevideo or the north of Chile (Really nice from Nov. Untill April)

[Artisttyp]

I experienced a very sobering moment about the politics / economics of Argentina. My sweetheart showed me a shoe-box full of $1,000.000.00 peso notes that are completely worthless. They were her Grandmother's life savings. Within her lifetime, everything, and I mean everything was gone. Just the thought that it could and probably will happen again dampened any thoughts of me purchasing any hard assets in Argentine. I enjoy the heck out of Buenos Aires, but no thank-you. A Gringo would be very low on the food chain in my view when they try to sort things out. For me, the risk is greater than the reward at this time. Maybe in the aftermath, but like many, there is a storm a brewin. Do hope I am wrong in my assessment.

What you say makes sense.

[Damman]

I'd love to hear more opinions

I experienced a very sobering moment about the politics / economics of Argentina. My sweetheart showed me a shoe-box full of $1,000.000.00 peso notes that are completely worthless. They were her Grandmother's life savings. Within her lifetime, everything, and I mean everything was gone. Just the thought that it could and probably will happen again dampened any thoughts of me purchasing any hard assets in Argentine. I enjoy the heck out of Buenos Aires, but no thank-you. A Gringo would be very low on the food chain in my view when they try to sort things out. For me, the risk is greater than the reward at this time. Maybe in the aftermath, but like many, there is a storm a brewin. Do hope I am wrong in my assessment.

[Artisttyp]

Rent, don't buy in AR. We have recommended this for years! My landlord, a minor speculator, owns 4 very nice apartments. Only mine is rented. The same is true all winter. Anyway, I'm leaving asap, for 3 months or permanently!

Where would you move to and why are you moving? This would tell us alot more.

Are you guys miserable in BA? What do you guys see outside of BA that is making you think "get out"?

If a crisis happened again wouldn't you guys be living large?

[Artisttyp]

Yea Your "Nuts" or have more money than brains, rent the Apartment on a long term basis, two years or more.

There's another "Crisis" coming and Argentine real estate will go in the tank.

Exon

But isn't "crisis" a good thing on my end? As I stated I would be buying a home not an investment. Some might say a home is an investment but I look at it more as shelter.

I just can't get over the amount of money I've spent on rent in NYC. I could have owned buy now. That is where my "nuts".*more "BRAINS" than money attitude comes in. I haven't been able to consider moving until very recently.

The problem I am running into with renting in foreign countries is visas and all that crap. I know you can dodge the officals for awhile but eventually it will catch up with you. I want to be legit in SA. I don't want to be scurrying around to find someone to rent me an apt under the radar. The reason my trips have been so sucessful are that I plan and organize well. Also my papers are in tact. I want to move freely without any worries of having to bribe officials to get in and out of countries etc.

I am not a huge fan of Argentina although I like it there. I am just thinking it might be a good place to use as a base camp in SA. Lima is great but winter sucks. Medellin has great pfp but I would slit my wrists out of boredom. Brazil is too expensive. I've gone down the line with all the SA countires. Where there is pussy there isn't decent food or the other way around. There are many ways to spoil the fun.

I would love to spend time in all those places but not own or be tied down with a visa. Why? It gets old really fast. But I would have "shelter" in BA and some of the ammenities I am used to. Even living in BA you guys lack stuff. Heinz Ketchup anybody?

Would owning in Colombia or Peru be any safer? I am not in the real estate business but I wouldn't think so. Brazil would be great but I don't have a brazil budget.

Also I must say that budget monegring in BA price wise is on par with most SA budget locations minus the $6 desperation fucks of Peru, Bolivia and Ecuador. Medellin would be a step up but there has been times the peso was NOT in my favor and was only a few dollars less than a BA budget fuck.

I don't have alot of experience with these types of situations BUT I am learning.

Maybe you don't understand my situation.

I'd love to hear more opinions.

Thanks.

Artisttyp

[Punter 127]

There's another "Crisis" coming and Argentine real estate will go in the tank.

Exon

Oops for a moment I thought I was on the U. S. Economy thread.